The Image Shredder

superflyninja

I find getting actual constructive feedback nigh on impossible on t'internet.
So I recently joined a facebook 'tog group that is called the Shredder I think it was. I haven't posted anything( I dont really want people on FB seeing my photos). Seeing as C&C isn't happening too much in here would there be interest in a Shredding thread? Maybe anyone can post an image and others can let rip provide suggestions, honest CC?
Think it might work?

Paulw

I love giving and getting honest feedback. But, the problem is is that some people post an image they really like and then they get offended when the feedback doesn't match their view of the image.

There is also the worry that some feedback is not constructive at all, but is destructive and malicious. :eek:

I think such a thread could work .... BUT ..... people would need to fully understand what they are letting themselves in for when they post work, and those giving feedback should try to be constructive.

solomafioso

If you were looking for a group of like minded people would the likes of http://www.deviantart.com/photography/ suffice?

As the previous poster said, you need to sift out the "trolling" and/or severe comments and focus on the constructive criticism (positive or negative). It's how you will learn and hone your skill by listening to the hints or tips from someone who might have x years experience over you. Or even someone with a fresh view of your work.

eoglyn

I think it would allow for much bettter feedback and be more constructive than the Random thread - for the reasons that you posted in the other thread here about thanks, namely the great love for landscapes and little else.

i've seen other threads on different forums where you have to add a new image with your C & C - to keep people honest but I've never seen the vast majority of posters here being anything but civil and helpful, so it probably won't descend into chaos.

there might be a general expectation that if you are willing to give feedback that you will also request it somewhat regularly.

I say go for it.

You first.

superflyninja

Shredding has much more...aggressive connotations than C&C. So I d hope that would give more of an idea of what the thread is about. Thats the thing about C&C though, it is just (possibly educated)opinion...so too does come the risk of malicious feedback, you are right.
I find deviantart isn't as good these days.

Anyone please feel free to post an image for shredding. General guidelines for C&C comments should be along the lines of:

1. Composition
2. Technical issues (DOF, focus, lighting, exposure)
3. Processing
(thanks Mystyk)

Ideally it would be good keep the technical aspects of the photo separate to the subject. (Though all comments are fair game)

superflyninja

Thats an interesting idea about givers of C&C posting their own image. It could bloat the thread something fierce though. I think that it would be good to get as many replies as possible and forcing the user to post an image could be a barrier to that? Id probably leave it optional to post an image with feedback...but it it works on other forums...
I dont have access to the photo i want to use here (

magicbastarder

the main reason i would click into a thread asking for C&C and not provide any is if i find the image uninteresting, which is in itself the biggest criticism you could probably make...

superflyninja

magicbastarder wrote: »

the main reason i would click into a thread asking for C&C and not provide any is if i find the image uninteresting, which is in itself the biggest criticism you could probably make...

hmmm well not much to do to combat that really.

kevc2

I find posting images on the photography board on 4chan, you get your photos ripped apart and great honest feedback. I don't think it would work here at all.

superflyninja

Right. Ill go first! See if there is any interest at all.


Link

Myksyk

My tuppence ha'penny worth re C&C ... could you structure the feedback a bit to put some sort of helpful reins on it? For example, ask posters to give their feedback in something like the form of ...

What I would do /have done differently in terms of:

1. Composition
2. Technical issues (DOF, focus, lighting, exposure)
3. Processing
etc

I'd actually avoid the whole issue of whether you like the picture or not as it seems to me this is more about personal preference than photographic ability.

OldGoat

Delicious colours. However compositionally you have two competing elements, the sun and the in-focus grass frond but I have no idea which you want me to look at. The sun is an over-bright eye magnet dragging me away from the grass yet the grass is in focus drawing me to it.

The positioning of the sun and the frond are also causing a disharmony with everything being weighted on the centre right of the frame with nothing to balance it out on the left. I find that I can't linger on photo as my eye is bouncing frantically from grass to frond and back again.

Having multiple elements in your composition is fine if...IF...they work together but yours are competing against each other.

Not sure how I would approach the same shot. I might have tried having the frond cut across the sun so they both occupy the same X,Y position in the frame. Perhaps I would have cooled down the brightness of the sun. I would try shooting wider so there is more negative space on the left of the frond/sun combination.

Did I mention the delicious colours?
IMO and all the usual caveats apply

Logie-1

Oldgoat- I thanked your post because I learned something from your comments.

I understand that they are very much your personal opinion, and I don't know how superflyninja will view them,(sorry superflyninja for jumping in)

I joined boards to learn and hopefully improve my photography and this is the sort of feedback that will help me achieve that.

11811

It's funny, I find myself in the same position myself, can never really find any constructive criticism online. But the more I think about it, I guess I'm part of the problem. I hardly ever go to the trouble of providing critique for others, this is something that I'll try to work on. Might as well start here with superflyninja's shot:

I'd actually pretty much echo the above comments, the colours are super, but the composition needs some work. There is too much empty space to the left, there is nothing to hold the eye there. Perhaps a crop to the left of the wheat stalks might help?

The sun being so out of focus seems to make it appear to be floating in front of the horizon, just seems a little off to me, but this is probably more a personal taste thing... Or is it setting between two headlands which make up the "horizon"?

Anyway thats my 2 cent!

superflyninja

@Oldgoat @11811
Cheers for the feedback guys,much appreciated. I hadn't thought of the composition in that way. You definitely have a point. The image is a crop so I can go back and recrop and include more negative space. Think having the sun in the centre might help and move away from the square crop?
Yup Im quite happy with the PP. I've been building up a set of self created and 3rd party PS actions lately that Im quite pleased with.
The photo was taken on m4.3 body with an OM zuiko 50mm on manual focus btw.

OldGoat

@11811
Any chance of posting your Milky Way & Tree shot up for discussion? Not for C&C but to go through your settings. I don't really want to go cluttering up the Random thread with chatter. I have a week planned in dark skys to try and catch it and would treasure some firsthand insights.

11811

No worries! Here we are



So the tech details are; shot at 17mm, f2.8, ISO 1600 for 30seconds. In a very dark field in Co Cork! This time of year is probably the best for Milky Way spotting in Ireland, and its best seen before dawn in the southern sky - this was taken at about 2.30 or so.

Sure if you have any specific questions, just ask!

D.S.

11811 - - that's a cracking shot...love the composition and colour work. Can I ask you a quick follow up q? What PP did you do on it, if any?

@superflyninja - I reckon if people keep things constructive and pleasant - this could be a great thread...good idea...

11811

D.S. wrote: »

11811 - - that's a cracking shot...love the composition and colour work. Can I ask you a quick follow up q? What PP did you do on it, if any?

@superflyninja - I reckon if people keep things constructive and pleasant - this could be a great thread...good idea...

Cheers, there's a bit of work involved in the PP, bit of noise reduction and curves in Camera Raw, then I use masks in PS to separately treat the sky and land. Just a case of using contrast and curve adjustments to get the stars to pop nicely. Oh, I also play about with the WB to get the colour to my liking.

superflyninja

@11811
Yup cracking shot not a huge amount to rip into tbh! I really like the way the image doesnt follow the rule of thirds. There is a strip of land at the bottom and immense star filled star above it. It really emphasises the vastness of space. If I were doing PP on the image though I would remove the two fence posts to the right just to give a little symmetry.

Did you have to go far outside cork to get the shot? I've been tempted too to try this. Stupid question but how visible is the milky way by eye when you are out shooting? I've never actually been in a position to see it.

eoglyn

I've joined that shredding group on fb, and i have to say that it remains very civil, moist of the comments are what you would want in a c&c - i guess the main difference to old fashioned c&c is that people don't qualify or apologise for every comment with imo or the like

@superflyninja

Agree with the comments re the crop, the 1:1 ration grates a little - but that would depend how you were ultimately going to be presenting it - i could see it printed with a large white border.

I'd also like a little more DOF - i'd link to have some context - even if its just some lines in the background - i think the other grass in the frame melts away to quickly, the revised crop might fix this.

Love the colours overall

11811

superflyninja wrote: »

@11811
Yup cracking shot not a huge amount to rip into tbh! I really like the way the image doesnt follow the rule of thirds. There is a strip of land at the bottom and immense star filled star above it. It really emphasises the vastness of space. If I were doing PP on the image though I would remove the two fence posts to the right just to give a little symmetry.

Did you have to go far outside cork to get the shot? I've been tempted too to try this. Stupid question but how visible is the milky way by eye when you are out shooting? I've never actually been in a position to see it.

Yeah, the posts do spoil the symmetry a bit, but as a personal rule I never add or remove anything in a capture thats part of the scene. On reflection, I should have incorporated them into the shot some how or got a shot without them, but in my defence it was pretty dark and could't even see them too well!

Yeah I could make out the (faint) outline of the Milky Way with my eyes, even though the location still suffers from a bit of light pollution from Cork city!

eoglyn

@11811

I'm so glad you've put this up here - i wanted to ask about it in the random thread.

You've answered my first question. This is in Ireland. I've been wanting to take milky way shots and have had a rokinon 14mm 2.8 since may but i thought i'd have to wait for the shorter days, we don't actually achieve astronomical twilight until sometime in august - would the milky way not be better and brighter then???

About your shot, i love the composition. I say keep in the fence posts, it grounds it and makes it more real, i would think it was a composite if it wasn't for them.

In saying that, i would like to try this setting up the camera more to the left, at the minute it i feel like i am missing the more interesting part of the milky way near the horizon - of course you might then lose the fence posts.

Also i'd like to see some colour or detail in the field - some subtle light painting perhaps.

I'm going to put up my, much more inferior, effort from last november for shredding next. I've seen people put them up and have the first go at shredding, it can get the conversation going.

joolsveer

superflyninja wrote: »

I find getting actual constructive feedback nigh on impossible on t'internet.
So I recently joined a facebook 'tog group that is called the Shredder I think it was. I haven't posted anything( I dont really want people on FB seeing my photos). Seeing as C&C isn't happening too much in here would there be interest in a Shredding thread? Maybe anyone can post an image and others can let rip provide suggestions, honest CC?
Think it might work?

Can you post a link to the Facebook page please?

eoglyn

lough boora-1 by EoghanL, on Flickr

I know the lighting in the cab is blown out, and there isn't much in the sky in terms of milky way or other stars, but any other shreds to inform the reshoot

Get shredding.

eoglyn

joolsveer wrote: »

Can you post a link to the Facebook page please?

If you search for the group called 'the shredder' you'll find it - it won't come up if you just put in 'shredder'.

it seems constructive enough, i won't be putting up anything too soon though

joolsveer

No the shredder doesn't work for me.

11811

eoglyn wrote: »

@11811

You've answered my first question. This is in Ireland. I've been wanting to take milky way shots and have had a rokinon 14mm 2.8 since may but i thought i'd have to wait for the shorter days, we don't actually achieve astronomical twilight until sometime in august - would the milky way not be better and brighter then???

You're right about the nights being darker alright, but in August and later in the year, while we'd have astronomical darkness, the main cloud cluster of the Milky May would be below our horizon.

I'd recommend downloading Stellarium, its a great star map application which allows you see the night sky at any point in the world and at any time.

Thanks for the feedback too!

superflyninja

@joolsveer The link is here

I dont post in it because everyone on my FB then will see the photos. And i dont exactly want that lol.

I get what ye mean about the fence posts I wouldnt mind having them removed and maybe the photo would look a little more like a composite. I wouldn't be worried too much. Each to their own Id never be strict about removing elements that I felt were a distraction etc. Not that I do it a lot.

@eoglyn Not sure the composition works for me tbh. What is the main subject? The line of the digger seems to point down toward mid bottom of the image and there isnt anything there. The cab I think is a little overexposed. There is a nice atmosphere in general though!

11811

eoglyn wrote: »

I know the lighting in the cab is blown out, and there isn't much in the sky in terms of milky way or other stars, but any other shreds to inform the reshoot

Get shredding.

I think the position of the train could be improved on. Its pointing down towards the bottom of the frame to a a fairly bright horizon which is taking the focus away from whats over head.

I like the concept and idea! Bit of a rework and it could be a great shot!

Sheeps

I like this idea. I'd say ill put some stuff for shredding/ C&C later. Really want to improve my photography.

D.S.

I am going to disagree a little with the others and say that the lines created by the train in it's current downward position is my favourite part of the current composition. It's different and unique, and the diagonal lines create tension in the image, which i like. I also like the tones. However, given you are thinking of reshooting this again, you could think about:

- is it the stars or the composition of the train you are focusing on (it might need a different crop / FOV. I agree with the lads that the both the sky and the train in current state together don't quite work for me.
- I notice some weird orange lines coming from the RHS of the train - could be light pollution or something else, but it looks odd to my eye. Would clone out
- The trees fall off to the right which I think throws things out of balance a bit, not sure whether the tripod was on flat ground, but even if it was, I'd straighten that horizon (as you have the depth on the LHS)
- i reckon it could be a cracking shot if it was a wide angle shot, less sky, keeping the train's angle, with less exposure in the cabin, and some more light painting outside of it. But horses for courses on that one - everyone sees something different in their minds eye..

eoglyn

11811 - thanks for the tips - i guess that means i better set the alarm clock and see what i can capture in the middle of the bog.

D.S. the tripod is wonky - i should have corrected for that in post, the orange lines are clouds over a nearby crossroads - it is a bit weird i'll agree and i can now take them out - overall i liked the light pollution in this instance, i thought it made the tree line stand out and the orange blended well with the purple in the sky

Superfly - i can't say i was entirely in control of the composition at the time, it was very dark, but i had straighter shots from the night and I liked how this captured the slope of this particular piece of sculpture known as the 'sky train' in lough boora - it is well a well photographed piece generally but many miss this element of it and it just looks like a regular train. I think when i shoot again i will try something like this and a different angle more straight on - then it will depend on where the most interesting part of the cosmos happens to be this time of year

Brilliant feedback all round, thank you - i think this is how i will begin to improve and it has definitely inspired me to go out and reshoot this

superflyninja

@eoglyn where abouts is lough boora? never heard of it or the train. Sounds v interesting though. Looking forward to seeing the new shots!
Was that strobe you used in the cabin or is it lit up anyway?

eoglyn

Only ireland's only premier 50 acre sculpture park

http://loughbooraparklands.ie/

It's near tullamore in Co. Offaly. It is actually amazing - great photo opporunities at all times of the year.

It is a good bird watching spot too, if that is your bag.

I put a couple of torches in the cabin poorly covered with some cloth and left them there for the 30 second exposure - but i put in a regular bulb torch (tungsten possibly) and an led - so you have a blue/white and a yellow light - again something i'll do differently.

OldGoat

11811, sorry to be slow in getting back to you.
As I said I have the chance to get into some dark skys soon enough and hope to catch the Milky Way. My problem is gear. I have a slow wide lens or a fast long lens and a body that is incredibly noisey. Anything over 800 just about manageable and 1600 is dubious at best.
I intend to shoot with both lenses to see what I can catch but do you have any firsthand knowledge as to which might work out better, the 17mm f/4 or the 50mm at f/1.4 (both on a crop sensor).

The 17mm will give me a bigger slice of the sky and a longer exposure but I'll have to wind the ISO byond acceptable in noise terms.
The 50mm gives me a smaller view, a shorter exposure time but a cleaner image noise-wise.
Therein lies the rub. Should I be looking for a shorter exposure with more noise or a longer exposure with more noise?

...

or I could just use the excuse to buy a fast wide lens.

11811

OldGoat wrote: »

11811, sorry to be slow in getting back to you.
As I said I have the chance to get into some dark skys soon enough and hope to catch the Milky Way. My problem is gear. I have a slow wide lens or a fast long lens and a body that is incredibly noisey. Anything over 800 just about manageable and 1600 is dubious at best.
I intend to shoot with both lenses to see what I can catch but do you have any firsthand knowledge as to which might work out better, the 17mm f/4 or the 50mm at f/1.4 (both on a crop sensor).

The 17mm will give me a bigger slice of the sky and a longer exposure but I'll have to wind the ISO byond acceptable in noise terms.
The 50mm gives me a smaller view, a shorter exposure time but a cleaner image noise-wise.
Therein lies the rub. Should I be looking for a shorter exposure with more noise or a longer exposure with more noise?

...

or I could just use the excuse to buy a fast wide lens.

Ah that's a dilly of a pickle you're in! It's kind of much of a muchness, as the 50mm you'll only be able to expose for about 7 seconds before you'll get movement in the stars and it won't get you much in terms of width in your scene. A possibility would be to go wide with a high ISO to get your detail in the stars (most of its noise anyway!) and maybe take a much longer exposure at a low ISO of your foreground and blend the two? It's not ideal I guess but it's a workaround. Or esle treat yourself to a nice fast wide angle!

eoglyn

1.



2.



3.



i'd love some feedback on these images, they were taken during semana santa, or holy week, in cordoba, the kids are building wax balls from the nazarenos' candles - they are grainy as i was using a ricoh gr with a high iso in low light conditions - they are slightly cropped, shredding on everything is welcome

Sheeps

I probably wouldn't have gone with monochrome for #2

eoglyn

2 is my least favorite, i struggled with that one,

here it is in colour:

[

dirtyghettokid

colour version is much better.
i find my eyes keep drifting to the people in the background though, where the boy should be centre of focus/attention. perhaps the background people should be more out of focus.
what aperture (& lens) did you shoot this with? the exif data isn't available..

superflyninja

Yup I agree colour works better.And I agree with Janine, a wider aperture focused on the kid would be more effective IMO. And if it was me Id probably gone for a slightly lower angle.

eoglyn

Exposure
0.017 sec (1/60)Aperturef/2.8Focal Length18.3 mmISO Speed3200

All three have similar exif data, it was using a ricoh gr, which is a compact mirrorless fixed lens job with an APS-C sensor, 2.8 is as wide as it gets,

iso is high as i didn't want to use the on-camera flash as it would wash out the light source in the frame. Ricoh gr is often praised for the quality of it's digital grain -being almost film-like, i'm not sure about that, but i still like these images.

For all three i was leaning over with the camera at arms length above my head. I know what you are saying about getting low - quite often it can work better, but it wasn't really an option in this case.

eoglyn

i want to revive this thread as i liked the idea, i know its not supposed tobe just for night sky stuff but seeing as there was a relevant discussion on it before:

untitled-1.jpg by EoghanL, on Flickr

14mm, f2.8, 30secs, iso 4000

i know it would be better with no clouds in the sky, shred requested mainly for the post and how to improve

11811

eoglyn wrote: »

14mm, f2.8, 30secs, iso 4000

i know it would be better with no clouds in the sky, shred requested mainly for the post and how to improve

Some nice Milky Way action there!
If I was to suggest an improvement it would be to include some more of our own planet! Bit of foreground interest of a bit more of the landscape in the bottom would give a bit more context to the shot. If you're worried about missing out on some of the Milkyway you could always try some picture stitching?

superflyninja

Really nice. Where did you take it?
Only thing Id say is maybe to combine two exposures. One for the sky and one for the ground. The earth in the shot above is pretty much a black strip. More detail in there might add more interest.

magicbastarder

the biggest issue with shots like this is that everyone has seen the same image before - the trick is trying to do something new with it.

Logie-1

Hi eoglyn,
I have never tried starscapes before so I can't give any technical advice. What I will say is ,that I think there is too much going on at at the bottom of the shot, bright lights and grass at the very bottom. I think the milky way part is very good but maybe a better location is all they is needed. (personal opinion of course:))

OldGoat

Did you use auto white balance? If you use a custom WB using an image of the night sky it can help reduce the sodium glare.
Or you can spend a few hundred euro on a specialist filter.

magicbastarder

is there any ability in photoshop to remove a very specific colour, which would obviously be the one matching the sodium lights in that pic?

dinneenp

Good idea for a thread. I know people can post a 'C&C wanted' thread but few people do. Maybe they think it's too much bother for maybe 2 photos. I did propose ages ago the same as this; a random thread but where people give more feedabck.

Hope the thread lasts.