Roma family to sue the state - ## READ MOD NOTE IN FIRST POST

Kermit.de.frog

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/family-of-roma-child-taken-into-care-to-sue-state-1.1851448



Can't see this going down very well. Garda incompetence plus chance for Roma to get a few extra bob from the taxpayer.

The family is suing the State for breach of constitutional rights, false imprisonment, negligence and damages for mental distress, and possibly defamation.

Mr Connellan told RTÉ today that proceedings would be pursued even if an apology is given by the Department of Justice and the Garda.

Mr Connellan said while an apology would be an excellent start, the family was entitled to be compensated for what happened on that night.

MOD NOTE: If you just want to post a racist swipe at any group of people, post somewhere else.

Understandable, you can't just go around kidnapping people's children

wes

They seem very much to be in the right. Best for the government to settle, as there really is no point in dragging things out and costing more money.

Shiraz 4.99

I wonder how long after the kids were returned before the ambulance chasers dropped by with their free no win no fee advice.
Loathsome profession.

darkpagandeath

Shiraz 4.99 wrote: »

I wonder how long after the kids were returned before the ambulance chasers dropped by with their free no win no fee advice.
Loathsome profession.

Hardly think that's a valid point, They had their children taken from them kidnaped if you will for not looking the same as them. And is it not government practice in these cases when they are clearly in the wrong to fight tooth and nail costing more in legal fee's than they would have to pay out ? I mean that happens all the time with HSE cases.

FearDark

What did the Romans ever do for us?

Shiraz 4.99

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Hardly think that's a valid point, They had their children taken from them kidnaped if you will for not looking the same as them. And is it not government practice in these cases when they are clearly in the wrong to fight tooth and nail costing more in legal fee's than they would have to pay out ? I mean that happens all the time with HSE cases.

Have you got a figure in mind ?

iba

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/family-of-roma-child-taken-into-care-to-sue-state-1.1851448



Can't see this going down very well. Garda incompetence plus chance for Roma to get a few extra bob from the taxpayer.

I do not think that there was Garda incompetence.

They took all necessary advice and did it all in the best interest of the child.

Should they have just ignored it?

HigginsJ

This is the worry with acting on "reported concerns" from members of the general public. No one knows the motivation behind these reports. The family deserve what ever compensation they receive.

shruikan2553

iba wrote: »

I do not think that there was Garda incompetence.

They took all necessary advice and did it all in the best interest of the child.

Should they have just ignored it?

If they weren't their children and weren't able to prove it then their would be uproar over not taking the children away while if they were their children and couldn't prove it then they should have left them alone. Depends on how much hindsight you have.

Valetta

iba wrote: »

I do not think that there was Garda incompetence.

They took all necessary advice and did it all in the best interest of the child.

Should they have just ignored it?

+1.

If the gardai and social services acted in good faith, then there should be no case to answer.

It would be no different to someone being arrested, charged with a crime and then being found not guilty.

darkpagandeath

Shiraz 4.99 wrote: »

Have you got a figure in mind ?

I'm sure their legal team had advised suitable compensation demands.

shruikan2553 wrote: »

If they weren't their children and weren't able to prove it then their would be uproar over not taking the children away while if they were their children and couldn't prove it then they should have left them alone. Depends on how much hindsight you have.

We can all guess the motivation behind this one. Oh look Greece did it Quick lads lets see if we can get some points for doing the right thing.

Oink

iba wrote: »

They took all necessary advice

While I applaud the fact that they acted when they felt they had reasonable grounds, I'd be curious as to what those were in this case, other than "this here kid don't look none like ya".

Nodin

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

.............plus chance for Roma to get a few extra bob from the taxpayer.

The states agents acted with the same mentality as a mob, took children from their parents and you use this to get a dig in at the Roma? It's no wonder people have been able to use and abuse children for so long in this country.

userod

bluewolf wrote: »

Understandable, you can't just go around kidnapping people's children

Which is exactly the reason the Gardai took away the children.

Pawwed Rig

iba wrote: »

I do not think that there was Garda incompetence.

They took all necessary advice and did it all in the best interest of the child.

Should they have just ignored it?

Yes they should have ignored it as they had no proof other than the fact the child had blond hair. Their was no child welfare issue here as the other children were not taken away. It was complete incompetence and this is the logical outcome.

It was hysteria after that other case in Greece.

y0ssar1an22

Compulsory photo ID's for all is the only solution.

DazMarz

iba wrote: »

I do not think that there was Garda incompetence.

They took all necessary advice and did it all in the best interest of the child.

Should they have just ignored it?

This...

Imagine the unmitigated, fúcking, complete and utter UPROAR there would have been had the shoe been on the other foot: the kid DID turn out to be a kidnap victim, but the Gardaí acted far too late. Jesus, it would have been unholy.

As it stands, I can see both sides. The Gardaí HAD to act; they didn't do this on a whim. There was obviously some reason for them to do it. They didn't swoop in with no evidence. There had to have been some evidence, as flimsy and circumstantial as it may have been, for them to act.

However, you can only imagine the sheer and utter terror, disbelief and trauma that the family must have experienced to have their child snatched out from under them. Not by criminals or anything. But by the Gardaí and by officials from the HSE. The powers that be. Now that must be one of the most terrifying things. It casts doubt on your own ability to be a parent when the government steps in and takes your kids. For no reason, it must be remembered.

I think we should remember that it is better to have a police force that would act swiftly rather than one who would be too scared of the consequences to act (see numerous cases in the UK where the police have been too scared to act against various ethnic groups for fear of being branded racist). I'd much rather a police force willing to face accusation of racism (without actually being such!!!) and act decisively, rather than a police force paralysed by fear.

More is lost through indecision than wrong decision; had the Gardaí hesitated too long, the case could have been that the child was indeed an abductee and would have been spirited out of the country very quickly and then the cries would have been "What the hell were the Gardaí at?! Why didn't they act quicker!?"

Mistakes were made, pencils have erasers on them for this very reason. They'll get their financial settlement and all will be right with the world. Simple.

userod

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Yes they should have ignored it as they had no proof other than the fact the child had blond hair. Their was no child welfare issue here as the other children were not taken away. It was complete incompetence and this is the logical outcome.

It was hysteria after that other case in Greece.

Isn't the type of error that was made better than the opposite type of error.

Pawwed Rig

DazMarz wrote: »

As it stands, I can see both sides. The Gardaí HAD to act; they didn't do this on a whim. There was obviously some reason for them to do it. They didn't swoop in with no evidence. There had to have been some evidence, as flimsy and circumstantial as it may have been, for them to act.

They did do it on a whim. It was a random person who decided a blond child did not belong with Roma. Subsequently contacted by a raggy journalist who reported it to the Guards. That is all the evidence they had. Absolute imcompetence.

Valetta

userod wrote: »

Isn't the type of error that was made better than the opposite type of error.

Of course it is, but it doesn't suit the baying mob that is AH, where literally anything the state does is reprehensible.

Pawwed Rig

userod wrote: »

Isn't the type of error that was made better than the opposite type of error.

No. They could have done it in a way that was alot less stressful on the poor child.

darkpagandeath

DazMarz wrote: »

This...

Imagine the unmitigated, fúcking, complete and utter UPROAR there would have been had the shoe been on the other foot: the kid DID turn out to be a kidnap victim, but the Gardaí acted far too late. Jesus, it would have been unholy.

As it stands, I can see both sides. The Gardaí HAD to act; they didn't do this on a whim. There was obviously some reason for them to do it. They didn't swoop in with no evidence. There had to have been some evidence, as flimsy and circumstantial as it may have been, for them to act.

However, you can only imagine the sheer and utter terror, disbelief and trauma that the family must have experienced to have their child snatched out from under them. Not by criminals or anything. But by the Gardaí and by officials from the HSE. The powers that be. Now that must be one of the most terrifying things. It casts doubt on your own ability to be a parent when the government steps in and takes your kids. For no reason, it must be remembered.

I think we should remember that it is better to have a police force that would act swiftly rather than one who would be too scared of the consequences to act (see numerous cases in the UK where the police have been too scared to act against various ethnic groups for fear of being branded racist). I'd much rather a police force willing to face accusation of racism (without actually being such!!!) and act decisively, rather than a police force paralysed by fear.

More is lost through indecision than wrong decision; had the Gardaí hesitated too long, the case could have been that the child was indeed an abductee and would have been spirited out of the country very quickly and then the cries would have been "What the hell were the Gardaí at?! Why didn't they act quicker!?"

Mistakes were made, pencils have erasers on them for this very reason. They'll get their financial settlement and all will be right with the world. Simple.

Falls down though when the other children were not taken, So there was no welfare issue at all. Only that one child did not look exactly like their siblings. Falls down again due to child living with the parents for ages and no one batted an eyelid before.

Nodin

DazMarz wrote: »

This...

Imagine the unmitigated, fúcking, complete and utter UPROAR there would have been had the shoe been on the other foot: the kid DID turn out to be a kidnap victim, but the Gardaí acted far too late. Jesus, it would have been unholy.

As it stands, I can see both sides. The Gardaí HAD to act; they didn't do this on a whim. There was obviously some reason for them to do it. They didn't swoop in with no evidence. There had to have been some evidence, as flimsy and circumstantial as it may have been, for them to act.

.................

You know theres yet to be a report delivered on this?

Valetta

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

They did do it on a whim. It was a random person who decided a blond child did not belong with Roma. Subsequently contacted by a raggy journalist who reported it to the Guards. That is all the evidence they had. Absolute imcompetence.

How do you know that is all the evidence they had?

userod

Nodin wrote: »

The states agents acted with the same mentality as a mob, took children from their parents and you use this to get a dig in at the Roma? It's no wonder people have been able to use and abuse children for so long in this country.

Don't be such a drama queen. There is a duty on the 'states agent' to investigate reports that are made. As has already been pointed out, imagine if the opposite type error had been made, if the children were actually abductee's and the gardai failed to investigate it sufficiently, imagine then the uproar.

Also it seems people make comments like that about the Roma people etc as there is often a base to it. For example they are notorious for representing a much higher % of pickpockets than they do the general population. Not applicable in this case but that is where the prejudice is coming from.

Boskowski

This is an example of media hysteria creating real life sh1t. Can't come down hard enough on this one.

userod

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

No. They could have done it in a way that was alot less stressful on the poor child.

How do you know that? For all you know, the parents might have been extremely uncooperative. Perhaps, the only way Gardai could have been sufficiently confident was to isolate the children and take them from any potential influence of the parents vicinity.

You just can't know.

In any event I trust the Gardai's process in this instance much more than I would trust someone like you to know best how to carry out the same task/investigation after reading a newspaper article.

Nodin

userod wrote: »

Don't be such a drama queen. There is a duty on the 'states agent' to investigate reports that are made. As has already been pointed out, imagine if the opposite type error had been made, if the children were actually abductee's and the gardai failed to investigate it sufficiently, imagine then the uproar.

Also it seems people make comments like that about the Roma people etc as there is often a base to it. For example they are notorious for representing a much higher % of pickpockets than they do the general population. Not applicable in this case but that is where the prejudice is coming from.

So if somebody makes a half arsed report about the Roma, its ok, because prejudice...? FFS.

userod

Nodin wrote: »

So if somebody makes a half arsed report about the Roma, its ok, because prejudice...? FFS.

Who said that? And how do you know the report was half arsed? Stop exaggerating and dramatising. Or we will have to give you a job at the Irish Times.

darkpagandeath

userod wrote: »

How do you know that? For all you know, the parents might have been extremely uncooperative. Perhaps, the only way Gardai could have been sufficiently confident was to isolate the children and take them from any potential influence of the parents vicinity.

You just can't know.

In any event I trust the Gardai's process in this instance much more than I would trust someone like you to know best how to carry out the same task/investigation after reading a newspaper article.

Why were all the children not taken then ? Seems odd leaving children with suspected kidnappers ? I would hazard a guess if they could not lay their hands on documents for one child i would wager the same for the others or at least more than one.

Holsten

They should take the state and the Garadi for everything they can get

Complete mess up that was.

Oink

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

[...] plus chance for Roma to get a few extra bob from the taxpayer.

Ah sure they're Roma so of course when their children were taken from them, I'm sure the parents thought they hit the jackpot!!! And when the children started crying... SCOOOORE!! That's how them Roma think you know.

What's a little casual racism between friends.

Caliden

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Yes they should have ignored it as they had no proof other than the fact the child had blond hair. Their was no child welfare issue here as the other children were not taken away. It was complete incompetence and this is the logical outcome.

It was hysteria after that other case in Greece.

How do you know that was the only info they had to go on?

It was a landmark decision to be made by the Gardai and hopefully this report will show that steps were taken to investigate thoroughly before they acted.

Nodin

userod wrote: »

Who said that? And how do you know the report was half arsed? Stop exaggerating and dramatising. Or we will have to give you a job at the Irish Times.

Did you actually read the grounds they intervened on?

Barely There

Hopefully they'll win.

DazMarz

DazMarz wrote: »

I think we should remember that it is better to have a police force that would act swiftly rather than one who would be too scared of the consequences to act (see numerous cases in the UK where the police have been too scared to act against various ethnic groups for fear of being branded racist). I'd much rather a police force willing to face accusation of racism (without actually being such!!!) and act decisively, rather than a police force paralysed by fear.

1) The UK Met and other forces are racist.
2) The actions of the Gardai in this case were based on race assumptions.

Nodin

Caliden wrote: »

How do you know that was the only info they had to go on?

It was a landmark decision to be made by the Gardai and hopefully this report will show that steps were taken to investigate thoroughly before they acted.

Not very likely.

Paul Connellan, who represents the Athlone family, said they have had the Ombudsman’s report for about a month and found it to be “comprehensive”.
“I and the family were very happy with her thoroughness and findings,” he said.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/family-of-roma-child-taken-into-care-to-sue-state-1.1851448

"CHILDREN'S Minister Charlie Flanagan has said that the Ombudsman's report into the removal of two Roma children from their families "raises some very serious issues". -

"Ms Logan's report is expected to find that "ethnic profiling" was a key factor in both incidents, although she does not believe it is a major issue within the gardai. "
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/charlie-flanagan-says-report-on-removal-of-roma-children-is-worrying-30267823.html

PLUG71

Deleted User wrote: »

1) The UK Met and other forces are racist.
2) The actions of the Gardai in this case were based on race assumptions.

There is not a police force on this earth that are not racist to a degree because they are people at the end of the day!

B.A._Baracus

I'll be the one to say it...

The Gardai had good intentions on this one. They saw something that didn't seem right. But there was one problem. They were wrong and as such have now left themselves open for a court case.

As for the Roma family themselves. Doesn't matter if they are Roma, Nigerians, Irish, Mexican or Spanish. Most families would sue in that situation. Could stand to earn quite a sum of monies

userod

PLUG71 wrote: »

There is not a police force on this earth that are not racist to a degree because they are people at the end of the day!

Exactly, people on here running around on their righteous rampages screaming about racism yada yada, completely oblivious to the fact that they are inherently racist themselves.

Anyway, thankfully the court will throw this nonsense out. Gardai need to be able to have the powers to do their job without being accused of having silly racist motives etc.

Pawwed Rig

Valetta wrote: »

How do you know that is all the evidence they had?

Because the girl was the couples child. She was not kidnapped.
Some random woman after reading the Greek story decided to tweet about it. The accusation was the only evidence. Well documented at the time.

So the Guards acted on a false allegation. There could not have been any other evidence as the story wasn't true!!

My son looks nothing like me, has dark hair and sallow skin. Will I be subject to this kind of treatment or is it just for blond kids of races we don't like? Think about that for a minute.

Nodin

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

I'll be the one to say it...

The Gardai had good intentions on this one...........

"Dem forunners is robbin de country"

"Well feck that"

'Gardaí summarily expel random "foriegners" en masse from Ireland'

"Well they had good intentions".

Valetta

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

I'll be the one to say it...

The Gardai had good intentions on this one. They saw something that didn't seem right. But there was one problem. They were wrong and as such have now left themselves open for a court case.

As for the Roma family themselves. Doesn't matter if they are Roma, Nigerians, Irish, Mexican or Spanish. Most families would sue in that situation. Could stand to earn quite a sum of monies

But that was my point earlier.

If the guards acted in good faith, then they were not "wrong", no more than they would be arresting someone on suspision of murder, but then releasing them without charge after further investigations.

userod

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

So the Guards acted on a false allegation.
.

You say it like it's a bad thing. Gaurds have to act on allegations. They don't have some magic power that tells them it's false, this often becomes apparent later, after the investigation is done.

comongethappy

It doesn't have to be black & white.

Was the Gardai actions based on race?
Yes.

Is the state/police force institutionally racist?
No.

Profiling can exist without the menace of outright racism behind it.

Its not to condone their actions at all, but I also think they acted with the childs best interests at heart.
(they overstepped for sure though.

Pawwed Rig

userod wrote: »

You say it like it's a bad thing. Gaurds have to act on allegations. They don't have some magic power that tells them it's false, this often becomes apparent later, after the investigation is done.

No they do not have to act on allegations. They should assess the allegation to see if it is credible (which it wasn't in this case). When found to be not credible they take no further action.

They were caught up in the hysteria that existed at the time of the Greek case and acted without any reason other than the child was blond and now we will pay for their shoot first ask questions later attitude.

I notice you ignored my other point. How come other kids are not targetted in this way? Why just blond kids of Roma?

B.A._Baracus

Valetta wrote: »

But that was my point earlier.

If the guards acted in good faith, then they were not "wrong", no more than they would be arresting someone on suspision of murder, but then releasing them without charge after further investigations.

I know what you mean, Valetta.
It's just that they took the child off the parents. When the child was biologically theirs. Obviously the parents told that to the guards but they werent believed. The Garda left themselves open on this one.

The family can turn around, which they now have, and say the mental stress.... negligence etc.

mikeym

I think the Roma couple were named at the time, which could have led to potential embarrassment.

They may have a case????

old hippy

userod wrote: »

Exactly, people on here running around on their righteous rampages screaming about racism yada yada, completely oblivious to the fact that they are inherently racist themselves.

Anyway, thankfully the court will throw this nonsense out. Gardai need to be able to have the powers to do their job without being accused of having silly racist motives etc.

Inherently racist? Speak for yourself.

They will win & rightfully so.

sabat wrote: »

They should have sued for loss of earnings too, seeing as they were without their begging prop for a day.

Nasty.

The Dagda

userod wrote: »

You say it like it's a bad thing. Gaurds have to act on allegations. They don't have some magic power that tells them it's false, this often becomes apparent later, after the investigation is done.

The Gardai didn't think to talk to the local Social Workers who knew the family, and knew the child since birth.

If the Gardai had done that simple thing there would be no issue. Garda Intelligence? What's that?!