Signalling on Maynooth line

daymobrew

The Coolmine level crossing closes for about 2.5 minutes when a train is due. Apparently this time period is due to the length of 'sections' on the Maynooth line. A former Irish Rail manager told me that the section length cannot be reduced, but I never probed him on the details.

Can someone please explain why the section length cannot be reduced?

(This is in relation to Irish Rail plans to close level crossings along the Maynooth line, citing, among other things, delays at level crossings).

Losty Dublin

daymobrew wrote: »

The Coolmine level crossing closes for about 2.5 minutes when a train is due. Apparently this time period is due to the length of 'sections' on the Maynooth line. A former Irish Rail manager told me that the section length cannot be reduced, but I never probed him on the details.

Can someone please explain why the section length cannot be reduced?

(This is in relation to Irish Rail plans to close level crossings along the Maynooth line, citing, among other things, delays at level crossings).

The signals protecting the gates at Coolmine also protect the level crossing at Porterstown. Both level crossings need to be free of traffic and closed off before the signals can be cleared and a train allowed to proceed through both gates. You also have the Ashtown and Clonsilla stations gates slowing things up en route; these too have the same procedures for their gates which also slow up trains on the line.

It is possible for each crossing to have it's own signal protecting it but this only slows down train movement to a crawl from crossing to crossing to allow ample braking distances in case of their being blocked.

LXFlyer

Well firstly, the plan is to build a new bridge to the west of Coolmine Road to eradicate the level crossing all together.

The plans for the new bridge are here:
http://rodericogorman.com/?p=1945


However, to answer your question, changing the signalling sections would require resignalling the entire line which would be a multi-million Euro job. That is something that is planned, along with the eradication of the level crossings - work has started with the construction of the bridge to replace Reilly's Crossing.

That being said, there has to be a certain distance either side of the level crossing that signals are located to protect the crossing, which once trains have passed the barriers stay down. Unfortunately the fact that there is a station beside the crossing adds extra time as the barriers would have to be down while a westbound train approaches and stops at the station. That will lengthen the waiting time for traffic.

TheBandicoot

I'm not sure the Coolmine and Porterstown gates are linked like that Losty, on a down train you can be held at a signal after leaving Coolmine, waiting for the Porterstown crossing to close. Might be true in the up direction, never been held at the signal protecting Coolmine to my knowledge.

The Ashtown crossing can be a big cause of delays- on down trains sometimes it doesn't close for road traffic until the train is already on the platform!(there is a signal on the platform that seems to protect the crossing) On up trains you can be waiting a while too after leaving Navan Rd Parkway. I recall a driver once made an announcement aplogising for a delay and blamed it on an "incompetent gatekeeper", quote.

daymobrew

lxflyer wrote: »

However, to answer your question, changing the signalling sections would require resignalling the entire line which would be a multi-million Euro job. That is something that is planned, along with the eradication of the level crossings - work has started with the construction of the bridge to replace Reilly's Crossing.

I know about the proposed bridge and it is this that residents are going to oppose. I need to understand the signalling setup to determine if I can use that info in any submission.

Why is changing the signalling sections so expensive? What infrastructure is in place that would have to be changed?

In my naivety I thought that there might be some trigger, placed on or close to the tracks, that could be moved. I realise that it the signally has to be very robust with built in redundancy.

BonkeyDonker

daymobrew wrote: »

Why is changing the signalling sections so expensive? What infrastructure is in place that would have to be changed?

In my naivety I thought that there might be some trigger, placed on or close to the tracks, that could be moved. I realise that it the signally has to be very robust with built in redundancy.

A section is the track between two points, and to change it you need to move points and install new ones. In Ireland these are primarily fixed blocks. As the distance between these points determine maximum line speeds you cannot have them too close together. You can read more on this here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_signalling#Block_signalling

Captain Chaos

On the Northern line they added in signals that effect the timings of the level crossing between Bayside and Sutton only recently. They added a signal between Killbarrack and HowthJunction just before the bridge and another singal was added between Clongriffin and HowthJunction to allow up trains to move up closer while a down train was signaled on to the branch. I believe all this was part of the DASH works though.

LXFlyer

daymobrew wrote: »

I know about the proposed bridge and it is this that residents are going to oppose. I need to understand the signalling setup to determine if I can use that info in any submission.

Why is changing the signalling sections so expensive? What infrastructure is in place that would have to be changed?

In my naivety I thought that there might be some trigger, placed on or close to the tracks, that could be moved. I realise that it the signally has to be very robust with built in redundancy.

Why are people opposing something that will improve the flow of both the road and rail traffic? Bizarre.

Signals work using track circuits - they certainly cannot just simply be moved from one point to another. It's an exceptionally complex task.

The northern line and Howth branch were completely resignalled recently - that is what will need to happen on the Maynooth line, along with the elimination of the level crossings.

BonkeyDonker

lxflyer wrote: »

Why are people opposing something that will improve the flow of both the road and rail traffic? Bizarre.

Welcome to Ireland

daymobrew

lxflyer wrote: »

Why are people opposing something that will improve the flow of both the road and rail traffic? Bizarre.

We are objecting to the proposed alternative - a new bridge that will bring all the traffic into two quiet estates (Station Court and Riverwood Court). If they bridged the existing route we would not have an issue.

lxflyer wrote: »

The northern line and Howth branch were completely resignalled recently - that is what will need to happen on the Maynooth line, along with the elimination of the level crossings.

Why do the level crossings need to be eliminated? Were any (busy) level crossings eliminated during the resignalling of the northern line and Howth branch?

BonkeyDonker

daymobrew wrote: »

Why do the level crossings need to be eliminated? Were any (busy) level crossings eliminated during the resignalling of the northern line and Howth branch?

Eliminating level crossings serve several purposes the most basic of which is to prevent delays to both trains and road traffic as they do not conflict.
This separation also helps eliminate the risk of a train/road vehicle collision, thus increasing safety for both rail and road users.

As for the elimination of crossings - they are removed when and where possible for the reasons stated above.

LXFlyer

daymobrew wrote: »

We are objecting to the proposed alternative - a new bridge that will bring all the traffic into two quiet estates (Station Court and Riverwood Court). If they bridged the existing route we would not have an issue.
Why do the level crossings need to be eliminated? Were any (busy) level crossings eliminated during the resignalling of the northern line and Howth branch?

There are no level crossings on the northern line. It's all bridges.

The Howth line is hardly busy by any standards.

Let's face it the line is going to get busier and that is going to impact on the road traffic even more - there is not enough capacity. That's why a bridge is needed.

The crossings hold both road and rail traffic up and need to be removed.

Jamie2k9

Correct me if I am wrong but many of the crossings on Maynooth line are manually operated, this adds a further time delay and the higher the line speed the earlier the crossings will be closed to ensure the train gets a clear run and not a danger signal and have to slow down.

In general across the network LCs will be closes at least 1.5 minutes before a train passes and longer if some are very close together.

daymobrew

lxflyer wrote: »

There are no level crossings on the northern line. It's all bridges.

The Howth line is hardly busy by any standards.

So, the rest of the DART line has not lost LCs and everything continues to work. Out this way we feel a little persecuted because of the inconsistency.

lxflyer wrote: »

Let's face it the line is going to get busier and that is going to impact on the road traffic even more - there is not enough capacity. That's why a bridge is needed.

The crossings hold both road and rail traffic up and need to be removed.

As someone that rarely drives and rarely use the Coolmine LC, I am not bothered that regular drivers are willing to sit at the closed LC for ages. The proposed bridge, as it does not directly replace the LC route, will involve a longer distance/time route to the direction I generally go when I use Coolmine LC. It also pushes a lot of traffic into two quiet estates. I like cycling up to the closed LC where my 3 year old and I can try guess which direction is coming from.

Back in 2007 I measured the closure times (average was 3m00s) because politicians were claiming the gates were closed for 30mins!

bovis

lxflyer wrote: »

Well firstly, the plan is to build a new bridge to the west of Coolmine Road to eradicate the level crossing all together.

lxflyer, I wouldn't hold your breath for this bridge. The above is not a plan just a pipe dream. It has not been opened up to public consultation. So far Irish rail have ignored the many concerns of local residents that will be severely impacted.

The local residents are very much opposed and I would safely bet that it will never happen so Irish rail should consider investing in a more effective signalling system.

L1011

Porterstown should have been stopped up ages ago - was only kept open to try save some seats at the local elections, ridiculous decision. A few parents who don't want to go the safe way round to get to the school whimpering is all there is there.

LXFlyer

daymobrew wrote: »

So, the rest of the DART line has not lost LCs and everything continues to work. Out this way we feel a little persecuted because of the inconsistency.
As someone that rarely drives and rarely use the Coolmine LC, I am not bothered that regular drivers are willing to sit at the closed LC for ages. The proposed bridge, as it does not directly replace the LC route, will involve a longer distance/time route to the direction I generally go when I use Coolmine LC. It also pushes a lot of traffic into two quiet estates. I like cycling up to the closed LC where my 3 year old and I can try guess which direction is coming from.

Back in 2007 I measured the closure times (average was 3m00s) because politicians were claiming the gates were closed for 30mins!

bovis wrote: »

lxflyer, I wouldn't hold your breath for this bridge. The above is not a plan just a pipe dream. It has not been opened up to public consultation. So far Irish rail have ignored the many concerns of local residents that will be severely impacted.

The local residents are very much opposed and I would safely bet that it will never happen so Irish rail should consider investing in a more effective signalling system.

Irish Rail have had an ongoing programme of eliminating level crossings across the network for quite some time. This is nothing new.


Once again, the northern line out of Connolly has no level crossings. There are some on the Howth branch, but comparing that line with the Maynooth line is like comparing apples with oranges, as the Howth line is not as busy.


The Maynooth line has got busier over recent years and is likely to get busier in the future. There comes a point where the existence of level crossings becomes a barrier to increasing frequency, no matter how strong the signalling systems in place are, and that is why the company are planning to eliminate the crossings between Clonsilla and Broombridge.


Now as to the specific designs/locations of replacement bridges - that's something that will have to go through the necessary planning processes and I'm not commenting on that, but merely explaining that there comes a point where you just cannot continue with level crossings.

daymobrew

lxflyer wrote: »

Irish Rail have had an ongoing programme of eliminating level crossings across the network for quite some time. This is nothing new.

I read that objective in the document about the closures.

lxflyer wrote: »

Once again, the northern line out of Connolly has no level crossings. There are some on the Howth branch, but comparing that line with the Maynooth line is like comparing apples with oranges, as the Howth line is not as busy.

What line is LC beside Sutton station on?
On the southside you have the infamous Merrion Gates that feature daily in AA Roadwatch reports. This surely has higher traffic volumes than Coolmine but it remains open.

LXFlyer

daymobrew wrote: »

I read that objective in the document about the closures.
What line is LC beside Sutton station on?
On the southside you have the infamous Merrion Gates that feature daily in AA Roadwatch reports. This surely has higher traffic volumes than Coolmine but it remains open.

Sutton is on the Howth branch - it's not on the northern mainline. Service levels on the Howth branch are less than those on the Maynooth line between Clonsilla and Connolly, and are not likely to rise as those on the Maynooth line are.

You do have several gates on the line south of Pearse, and in the longer term I imagine that IE will focus on eradicating them too. The service level there at peak is comparable to current service levels on the Maynooth line.

However, they're making a start on doing this on the Maynooth line. You have to start somewhere. If they don't then service levels won't be able to increase to serve the population, which in the medium term they are going to have to do.

L1011

daymobrew wrote: »

What line is LC beside Sutton station on?

The Howth branch.

dublinman1990

My view is that if IE do get approval from An Bord Planeala to build the new bridge over the Coolmine Level Crossing, the residents living around there could say that the bridge needs to be built to a very high standard.

There is no way that it's residents would want to see a similar near catastrophe in what had happened at the Broadmeadow Viaduct on the Northern line some five years ago. I know that this proposed bridge in Coolmine is for replacing a level crossing which doesn't require a huge amount of space or material to build it.

However, that same high standard still has to be there from IE to make it a good project.

Hungerford

dublinman1990 wrote: »

There is no way that it's residents would want to see a similar near catastrophe in what had happened at the Broadmeadow Viaduct on the Northern line some five years ago. I know that this proposed bridge in Coolmine is for replacing a level crossing which doesn't require a huge amount of space or material to build it.

I think we can all reassure the residents that, whatever it's design, the bridge won't be undermined by tidal scour.:D

bovis

Has anyone seen the massive and ugly bridge that is under construction just west broombridge on ratoath road? That's on an existing thorough-fare . A similar bridge through a private residential estate that never was a thorough-fare is never going to happen. Certainly not without a prolonged period of heavy resistence from the residents. Thankful a general election is going to happen in the next 2 years as this will be a huge local issue.

Great question from daymobrew. Let irish rail bridge or tunnel the merrion gates before the talk about impacting residents with a totally unsuitable crossing alternative especially when the maynooth line isn't anyway near as busy as the sourthern DART line or may never be.

dublinman1990 wrote: »

My view is that if IE do get approval from An Bord Planeala to build the new bridge over the Coolmine Level Crossing, the residents living around there could say that the bridge needs to be built to a very high standard.

There is no way that it's residents would want to see a similar near catastrophe in what had happened at the Broadmeadow Viaduct on the Northern line some five years ago. I know that this proposed bridge in Coolmine is for replacing a level crossing which doesn't require a huge amount of space or material to build it.

However, that same high standard still has to be there from IE to make it a good project.

LXFlyer

bovis wrote: »

Has anyone seen the massive and ugly bridge that is under construction just west broombridge on ratoath road? That's on an existing thorough-fare . A similar bridge through a private residential estate that never was a thorough-fare is never going to happen. Certainly not without a prolonged period of heavy resistence from the residents. Thankful a general election is going to happen in the next 2 years as this will be a huge local issue.

Great question from daymobrew. Let irish rail bridge or tunnel the merrion gates before the talk about impacting residents with a totally unsuitable crossing alternative especially when the maynooth line isn't anyway near as busy as the sourthern DART line or may never be.

It might help if you got your facts right.

The southern half of the DART line is no busier than the Maynooth line.

However the medium-long term plan is for the Maynooth line to get busier. That can only happen by eliminating the level crossings.

bovis

lxflyer wrote: »

It might help if you got your facts right.

The southern half of the DART line is no busier than the Maynooth line.

However the medium-long term plan is for the Maynooth line to get busier. That can only happen by eliminating the level crossings.

Southern DART line
2nd July trains from Blackrock to Sydney parade (via Merrion Gates)
08:04
08:12 (+8mins)
08:18 (+6mins)
08:36 (+18mins)
08:43 (+7mins)
08:50 (+7mins)
09:04 (+14mins)
09:11 (+7mins)
average period between trains - 8mins

Maynooth line
2nd July trains from Clonsilla to Coolmine (via Coolmine crossing)
08:02
08:12 (+10mins)
08:25 (+13mins)
08:35 (+10mins)
08:47 (+12mins)
08:56 (+9mins)
09:17 (+11mins)
average period between trains - 11mins

L1011

bovis wrote: »

Has anyone seen the massive and ugly bridge that is under construction just west broombridge on ratoath road? That's on an existing thorough-fare . A similar bridge through a private residential estate that never was a thorough-fare is never going to happen. Certainly not without a prolonged period of heavy resistence from the residents. Thankful a general election is going to happen in the next 2 years as this will be a huge local issue.

Great question from daymobrew. Let irish rail bridge or tunnel the merrion gates before the talk about impacting residents with a totally unsuitable crossing alternative especially when the maynooth line isn't anyway near as busy as the sourthern DART line or may never be.

Let me guess, you're a local resident worried about property value?

Fortunately, ABP are going to recognise that the needs of people in general are more important.

bovis

MYOB wrote: »

Let me guess, you're a local resident worried about property value?

Fortunately, ABP are going to recognise that the needs of people in general are more important.

So whats wrong with local people opposing of an unnecessary development that will greatly impact the ammenities for local children and greatly impact residents access to their local shopping center? If this was an existing road then it could be a different story as people bought their property knowing that they were living on a busy road. But to put a busy road through an existing residential area is ridiculous. Especially when the closing of the LCs on other busy routes (e.g. merrion gates) is not even being considered.

LXFlyer

bovis wrote: »

Southern DART line
2nd July trains from Blackrock to Sydney parade (via Merrion Gates)
08:04
08:12 (+8mins)
08:18 (+6mins)
08:36 (+18mins)
08:43 (+7mins)
08:50 (+7mins)
09:04 (+14mins)
09:11 (+7mins)
average period between trains - 8mins

Maynooth line
2nd July trains from Clonsilla to Coolmine (via Coolmine crossing)
08:02
08:12 (+10mins)
08:25 (+13mins)
08:35 (+10mins)
08:47 (+12mins)
08:56 (+9mins)
09:17 (+11mins)
average period between trains - 11mins

Given the different distances involved from Connolly, I wouldn't be comparing the number of trains at exactly the same time between Merrion Gates and Coolmine.

However, you managed to leave out the non-stop inbound Sligo train in your list of trains that pass Coolmine.

For trains arriving into Dublin Connolly/Dockands between 0810 and 0910 (peak travel time) there are 8 inbound trains from the Maynooth line.

For the same period, (arriving into Connolly between 0810 and 0910) coming north through Merrion Gates there are 8 trains as well.

That would indicate a similar level of service overall to me.

LXFlyer

bovis wrote: »

So whats wrong with local people opposing of an unnecessary development that will greatly impact the ammenities for local children and greatly impact residents access to their local shopping center? If this was an existing road then it could be a different story as people bought their property knowing that they were living on a busy road. But to put a busy road through an existing residential area is ridiculous. Especially when the closing of the LCs on other busy routes (e.g. merrion gates) is not even being considered.

You're missing the fundamental point - the medium/long term plans are to increase the service on the Maynooth line - that will need the elimination of the gates.

Level crossings are being closed all over the country. This is simply continuing this programme.

The plans for resignalling lines in Dublin have started along the northern line, are now in the city centre and next up will be the Maynooth line, including the removal of the level crossings.

After that the focus will probably move to the southeastern line. Ultimately I would imagine that efforts will be made to eliminate those crossings too.

I'm not commenting on where the bridge should go, but what I am saying is that the level crossings have to go if the number of trains are to increase.

cython

bovis wrote: »

Has anyone seen the massive and ugly bridge that is under construction just west broombridge on ratoath road? That's on an existing thorough-fare . A similar bridge through a private residential estate that never was a thorough-fare is never going to happen. Certainly not without a prolonged period of heavy resistence from the residents. Thankful a general election is going to happen in the next 2 years as this will be a huge local issue.

Great question from daymobrew. Let irish rail bridge or tunnel the merrion gates before the talk about impacting residents with a totally unsuitable crossing alternative especially when the maynooth line isn't anyway near as busy as the sourthern DART line or may never be.

And the bold just goes to show a big part of the problem with Irish politics, that those who are supposed to be running the country are expected to be (and unfortunately will in fact be, or pretend to be) concerned by local parish pump issues rather than running the country!

This is the domain of local authorities for some time, and should not be the concern of those seeking election to the Dail, even in another 2 years. Pathetic micro level politics, TBH.

MYOB wrote: »

Let me guess, you're a local resident worried about property value?

Fortunately, ABP are going to recognise that the needs of people in general are more important.

I hope so. I rent in the area and while I haven't seen the specific plans (do they even exist?!), I can see the massive problems with the Coolmine level crossing. Also, quite tactical to quote the morning schedules to compare, when the evening probably has similar number of local schedules, with some intercity ones mixed in which wouldn't appear on a search between Coolmine and Clonsilla.

bovis wrote: »

So whats wrong with local people opposing of an unnecessary development that will greatly impact the ammenities for local children and greatly impact residents access to their local shopping center? If this was an existing road then it could be a different story as people bought their property knowing that they were living on a busy road. But to put a busy road through an existing residential area is ridiculous. Especially when the closing of the LCs on other busy routes (e.g. merrion gates) is not even being considered.

On the bold, it would be very naive to think that

1. The shopping centre is oriented solely/primarily towards the locals of Dublin 15 (it is right beside the N3, after all), unless you are referring to somewhere like Roselawn?
2. There are not already massive issues with access that originate much closer to the centre at certain times of the year - tailbacks on the Snugborough road extension, for example? Changes around the level crossing will have very limited access by comparison.

In terms of the necessity, again it is taking a very microscopic view to state flatly that the development is unnecessary - tailbacks from the LC at present are pretty bad at certain times, and any variation in schedule results in extended closures as the separation between trains (mostly in opposite directions) is encroached on sufficiently that there isn't time to open it between them. Argue the routing, perhaps, but the benefits of removing the interaction between trains and road are abundantly clear, especially if the traffic on the line is to increase.

bovis

No that's exactly my point. The existing dart line runs straight through some of the busiest roads on the south side of Dublin. That works for a higher capacity then the maynooth line so plenty of room to grow capacity without closing the LCs. And do you really think Irish rail would get away with putting ugly bridges or tunnels through the leafy suburbs of landsdown road, sandymount, Sydney parade? Yeah sure. Those residents wouldnt tolerate that and neither will the coolmine residents.

lxflyer wrote: »

You're missing the fundamental point - the medium/long term plans are to increase the service on the Maynooth line - that will need the elimination of the gates.

Level crossings are being closed all over the country. This is simply continuing this programme.

The plans for resignalling lines in Dublin have started along the northern line, are now in the city centre and next up will be the Maynooth line, including the removal of the level crossings.

After that the focus will probably move to the southeastern line. Ultimately I would imagine that efforts will be made to eliminate those crossings too.

I'm not commenting on where the bridge should go, but what I am saying is that the level crossings have to go if the number of trains are to increase.