Fed-up being a landlord/time to sell?

Hannaho

Just wondered if anyone else finds being a landlord, stressful. I have two properties, one left to me, and the other I bought in my early 20s - no mortgage on either. Have issues with tenants recently and last year. Last year the tenants left the place filthy, mould growing on unwashed dishes, hundreds of cigarette butts on the patio, and they didn't use the shower curtain in the bathroom, so the ceiling in the kitchen came down twice. Now, tenants who have just left ard threatening going to PRTB as I kept e200 for excessively dirty sofa, chairs and carpet, rubbish not remohved, chair broken and gates removed from hinges at front gate. So far, I have paid out e120 and e225 for cleaning, e50 for chair, e100 for rubbish removal, yet have only docked tenants e200. They rented my property for six years, but wihen I asked to increase the rent after six years, to bring it line with rents in the area, they became very difficult and demanding and even wanted a second bathroom installed in the house. Now, last year's experience with tenants and fthis year's, I can't face renting the properties again. I was hoping to keep them for pension purposes, as I have taken a lot of time out of work for kids. At the moment the properties are empty - though I've applied for change of use for one of the properties. Just wondered if anyone else felt similarly about being a landlord, and what did you do?

endacl

Use a letting agent? Avoid the hassle altogether.

NIMAN

I became a reluctant landlord nearly 4yrs ago as we couldn't get our house sold.

I found a tenant I knew personally, and they were perfect, really looking after the place. But in the back of my mind I always wanted rid.

After about 18 months or so of renting I put it back on the market and let my tenant stay at a reduced rate until I got it sold. Thankfully I did and made a little profit. I was over the moon to get rid of it to be honest. Some friends and family think I sold it too low or should have held on to it as an investment for the future, but I always thought of it as hassle, even though I had a good tenant. I was always thinking about him leaving, a future bad tenant, storm damage, etc etc.

I can understand where you are coming from.

Hannaho

Thanks to both of you for your replies.

ENDACI - I did have a letting agent, but when there were problems as in the ceiling coming down because the tenants didn't use the shower curtain,l or the place being left like a tip, or the neighbours complaining about the tenants' parties - I found therey were useless - basically they were useless and just passed information between the tenant and I. They were also so terrified by PRTB, that I was encouraged not to reduce the tenants' deposit on return, even if they caused the ceiling to fall down twice etc.

NIMAN - yes that's exactly where I am coming from - for instance, I am toying with using some of the money from the sale of the properties to buy a holiday home in the beautiful village of Dunmore East - I'm originally from near there and my children go there every Easter and for four weeks in the summer to the Adventure Centre there. I wouldn't be worried about having a property that may be vacant for long period, and I don't mind paying the extra premium for holiday home insurance. I know that there would be no tenants in it to damage it, or who would leave the heat off in the middle of freezing weather (as happened me before), there would be no tenants to have aggravation with over how the property was kept etc. There would be no worries about tenants refusing to leave at end of notice period, or having to get involved in PRTB case - this is happening to my sister currently. For peace of mind and lack of stress, I would prefer to have a holiday home, not earning an income, and costing me a little, rather than having an investment property with more income and more stress. Maybe some people will think I'm totally mad!

CrinkElite

Hannaho wrote: »

they didn't use the shower curtain in the bathroom, so the ceiling in the kitchen came down twice.

The ceiling in the bathroom came down twice because they didn't use a curtain??

Smells of bullshoite

Hannaho

Sorry, it was the ceiling in the kitchen that came down - the bathroom is directly over the kitchen.

beauf

CrinkElite wrote: »

because they didn't use a shower curtain???
In another light you'd be in big trouble for charging rent on an unsound building.

Explain how?


Ceilings as a sweeping generalisation aren't structural. They are cosmetic. Usually plasterboard and paper. Excessive damp and moisture will bring them down.

beauf

Hannaho wrote: »

Just wondered if anyone else finds being a landlord, stressful. ....

I know a few people who let a property empty rather than have the stress or hassle of renting it. Being a LL is work and can be stressful. Not everyone like the same kind of work/job.

Deagol

As a one time tenant, I can tell you that a landlord telling me he's putting my rent up is going to make me get the whoopass excuses / threats / begs/ pleads out.

What would you expect? Oh yes, Mr Landlord, I am quite happy to pay the revised higher rent that you propose?

It's nothing personal, but of course any tenant is going to try and bargain with you! Would you, in there place, do anything different?

Hannaho

Deagol - I think if tenants haven't had an increase in rent in 6 years, and are now paying way below the market, e.g. e300 below the market rent, and the Landlord has maintained the property, I think it is reasonable of the Landlord to increase the rent, of course, giving them the required notice of the increase - e300 per month is a lot! Demanding a second bathro om in a house, which would cost around e5000 is just unreasonable.

Re. the ceiling, yes, it came down from damp and moisture - basically they just hopped into the shower and never drew the shower curtain, and the water from the shower splashed all over the bathroom. Over a couple of months the moisture and damp caused the ceiling in the kitchen underneath to collapse. This was half way through the tenancy. The tenants were asked to ensure that they always drew the shower curtain and had it inside the shower basin - something we would all do at home if we had a shower unit upstaris. One month before the end of the tenancy, the letting agent rang to say that the ceiling had come down again. These were all supposedly 'professional' people!

Larry Wildman

Why didn't you just install a permanent shower screen?

rotun

Would you consider handing it over to the social welfare?

Best thing I ever did..

Larry Wildman

rotun wrote: »

Would you consider handing it over to the social welfare?

Best thing I ever did..

That's a great idea.

You still derive an income but you're insulated from problem tenants.

murphaph

Larry Wildman wrote: »

Why didn't you just install a permanent shower screen?

Why didn't the tenants just pull the sodding curtain over like civilised human beings? Jesus wept...

murphaph

Larry Wildman wrote: »

That's a great idea.

You still derive an income but you're insulated from problem tenants.

Not under RAS you're not. Only under long term leasing to the local authority would that be the case and not all local authorities will even enter into such lease agreements. They'll also pay considerably less than market rate.

beauf

Larry Wildman wrote: »

That's a great idea.

You still derive an income but you're insulated from problem tenants.

No you're not.

They do they normal stuff but if there is a problem it's back to the LL. The LL has no protection in reality.

Larry Wildman

murphaph wrote: »

Why didn't the tenants just pull the sodding curtain over like civilised human beings? Jesus wept...

Hmmm...relying on the common sense of people who've proven themselves to be gobsh1tes or preventing the problem in the first place...a tough choice.

godtabh

CrinkElite wrote: »

The ceiling in the bathroom came down twice because they didn't use a curtain??

Smells of bullshoite

I had to build down a ceiling in a bathroom because they didnt use an extractor fan

Green farmer

I was a landlord for a long time. You can get good and bad runs. I'd seriously consider putting the properties into ras scheme. They could rent the house off you for anything up to 20 years. Sure they will pay you less then market rent, but bright side is you are guaranteed your money every month without any trouble. You give them the keys and forget about the property.

Second option is sell the properties. I wouldn't rush into buying a holiday home straight away though. If you think about what it costs to pay property charges, water, esb , maintenance over a year, you'd pay for a nice holiday with the same money.

Only an opinion, your gut will know what's right for you.

murphaph

Larry Wildman wrote: »

Hmmm...relying on the common sense of people who've proven themselves to be gobsh1tes or preventing the problem in the first place...a tough choice.

But where do you stop Larry? There are almost limitless ways someone can damage a property through negligence. Do you mitigate against all of them?

murphaph

Green farmer wrote: »

I was a landlord for a long time. You can get good and bad runs. I'd seriously consider putting the properties into ras scheme. They could rent the house off you for anything up to 20 years. Sure they will pay you less then market rent, but bright side is you are guaranteed your money every month without any trouble. You give them the keys and forget about the property.

Second option is sell the properties. I wouldn't rush into buying a holiday home straight away though. If you think about what it costs to pay property charges, water, esb , maintenance over a year, you'd pay for a nice holiday with the same money.

Only an opinion, your gut will know what's right for you.

You misunderstand the RAS. It is not a fire and forget solution at all. You remain the tenant's landlord.

listermint

murphaph wrote: »

But where do you stop Larry? There are almost limitless ways someone can damage a property through negligence. Do you mitigate against all of them?

No just the simple ones. Putting a fixed shower screen over a problem area such as a shower area is just basic common sense. I'm perplexed why anyone would be against such a simple option with a high success of damage limitation...

professore

I'm with the OP. Being a landlord would not be for me. Life is too short. I wouldn't buy a holiday home though. Going the same place every year on holidays? No thanks. Also the money you would spend would allow you to go on 5 star holidays in a different place every year. What about buying shares or some other passive investment? Sit down with a pen and paper and calculate it all out.

Green farmer

To me it was a forget all solution. I signed a long lease with the local authority and they looked after everything after that. I had no further contact with tenants. As I said I'm no longer a landlord, but it's about suggesting some positive options that the op can explore.

ted1

CrinkElite wrote: »

because they didn't use a shower curtain???
In another light you'd be in big trouble for charging rent on an unsound building.

That's nonsense, stop trolling

listermint

professore wrote: »

I'm with the OP. Being a landlord would not be for me. Life is too short. I wouldn't buy a holiday home though. Going the same place every year on holidays? No thanks. Also the money you would spend would allow you to go on 5 star holidays in a different place every year. What about buying shares or some other passive investment? Sit down with a pen and paper and calculate it all out.

Friends have a place in South wexford. It's idyllic, quiet by the sea beautiful weather and makes a fantastic get away. They use it all the time.

Literally brightens the mood to have somewhere easy to get to that gets a break for the norm.

Five star get aways can't deliver that regularly with ease.

murphaph

listermint wrote: »

No just the simple ones. Putting a fixed shower screen over a problem area such as a shower area is just basic common sense. I'm perplexed why anyone would be against such a simple option with a high success of damage limitation...

If they don't pull the shower curtain over what makes you think they'll close a shower door? We don't know the exact setup the OP has anyway. A fixed screen may not be an option.

beauf

Green farmer wrote: »

To me it was a forget all solution. I signed a long lease with the local authority and they looked after everything after that. I had no further contact with tenants. As I said I'm no longer a landlord, but it's about suggesting some positive options that the op can explore.

That's great but I've seen stories having great difficulties with tenants on the RAS. Evictions and such.

But you are right in that you get good and bad periods like any business.

Santa Cruz

I think that you are in a fantastic place financially but you did need to give serious thought about the future use of these properties.
On the basis of what you have told us I would suggest the following.

1. Sell both properties
2. With the income received buy an apartment in a good standard apartment complex which attracts good rents due to it's convenience to centres of employment, transport links etc. Apartments are far easier manage, with one. beds you invariably have either one tenant or two tenants at most to deal with, Apartments blocks that have good management companies and agents are maintained to a high standard.
The secret to rental is of course good selection of tenants. There are great tenansts out there who will meet you half way and more. I manage a number of properties in Dublin where there has not been a change of tenancies in four years. Just have a plumber, electrician available if needed, play fair with appliances which break down and things go great.
3. If you have the funds for a holiday home in Dunmore East BUY Buy. It will be the best investment from a family viewpoint. It is a lovely resort, great beach and a relaxing friendly atmosphere. Your kids know the area allready, you have family links thee as well. You can always make an arrangement with someone you know and trust to keep an eye on the property during the winter for you.
While some Irish people are obsessed with sun holidays they can be stressful for families. Motorway links make access to Dunmore very easy now and a property would be ideal for long weekends etc. While you may not wish to rent it out as a holiday let that option is there down the line.

With my suggestion you have a rental income from the apartment going in to the future and a holiday home as well. You have the assets to have a secure future and it's a shame to see you getting stressed over these problems.

Labarbapostiza

Hannaho wrote: »

Have issues with tenants recently and last year. Last year the tenants left the place filthy, mould growing on unwashed dishes, hundreds of cigarette butts on the patio, and they didn't use the shower curtain in the bathroom, so the ceiling in the kitchen came down twice. Now, tenants who have just left ard threatening going to PRTB as I kept e200 for excessively dirty sofa, chairs and carpet, rubbish not remohved, chair broken and gates removed from hinges at front gate. So far, I have paid out e120 and e225 for cleaning, e50 for chair, e100 for rubbish removal, yet have only docked tenants e200.

How much did you earn from these tenants?

Was it the equivalent of having one or even little more of them working for you for an entire year, and handing over all their wages? Precisely, like a slave.

And you're complaining about cigarette butts on the patio.

You probably feel like they're parasites, sucking your blood.

ZENER

Labarbapostiza wrote: »

How much did you earn from these tenants?

Was it the equivalent of having one or even little more of them working for you for an entire year, and handing over all their wages? Precisely, like a slave.

And you're complaining about cigarette butts on the patio.

You probably feel like they're parasites, sucking your blood.

I guess economics isn't your strong point ?!

Ken

Labarbapostiza

ZENER wrote: »

I guess economics isn't your strong point ?!

Ken

What exactly is that supposed to mean?

Are you going to give me some pompous wafter about supply and demand?

ZENER

You obviously have a bee in your bonnet about something ? The OP had to repair a ceiling twice because his tenants were careless ! They left rubbish everywhere and were generally bad tenants ! What would you suggest ?

Ken

Labarbapostiza

ZENER wrote: »

You obviously have a bee in your bonnet about something ?

No. A chip on my shoulder.

The OP had to repair a ceiling twice because his tenants were careless ! They left rubbish everywhere and were generally bad tenants ! What would you suggest ?

More often than not, tenants hate their landlord. Which can lead to carelessness.

For six years of rent, all they had to do was clean up some rubbish and fix the kitchen ceiling. And they found that too much of a trauma? And expense?......Really? Was the furniture meant to be in a "like new" condition after 6 years?

Do you know, that an average Dublin house, can earn as much or more than the average Irish farm?..........It's like a farmer complaining the cows won't milk themselves and they leave a mess everywhere. In fact it's much worse than that.

ZENER

A living room ceiling in a property I know of collapsed after the tenant banged a bed into a radiator while moving it causing the pipe to crack, they didn't report the leak and subsequently the ceiling collapsed. The living room was 16 feet by 10 feet, it cost 900 euro to fix it and another 150 to get a plumber to repair the pipe and sort the radiator and heating system. Thats 1050 euro. That doesn't include the cost of the clean up, the damage to the sofa and wooden floors and the time needed by the LL.

The rent was 650 per month, the tenants left at the end of the years lease leaving the place in a heap and using the "sure they can use my deposit as my last months rent" line. The house wasn't paying for itself at 650 with the LL adding another 200 per month to meet the mortgage.

So, where is all this money the landlord is making allowing her to live a life of luxury ?!

Would you like some salt on that chip ?

Ken

Larry Wildman

I'm a landlord and I expect my tenants to return my property to me in the same state that I would myself if I was a tenant.

There's a simple way to avoid the grief that the OP and other have described:

- Don't accept rent supplement

- Meet the prospective tenants yourself

- Only rent to professionals

- Only rent to "middle class" people

- Only rent to Irish people (with some exceptions, e.g. a French / American / British professional)

- Accept a lower rent in order to secure a better tenant (e.g. be happy to take €1,200 a month instead of €1,300 a month in order to get the solicitor and nurse rather than the taxi driver)

makeorbrake

Labarbapostiza wrote: »

No. A chip on my shoulder.

No kidding!

Labarbapostiza wrote:

More often than not, tenants hate their landlord. Which can lead to carelessness.

Ok, so their state of mind re. how they perceive their landlord releases them from their responsibilities - responsibilities that were clear from the outset. In fact, we're probably talking about fundamentally civil behaviour as opposed to purposely or otherwise - acting like pigs!

Labarbapostiza wrote:

For six years of rent, all they had to do was clean up some rubbish and fix the kitchen ceiling. And they found that too much of a trauma? And expense?......Really? Was the furniture meant to be in a "like new" condition after 6 years?

So the mentality here is the landlord has made a profit at the tenants expense (despite the tenant having received full use of the property in return for their rent) - how very dare they!
That releases the tenant from any responsibility for their actions apparently. Charming.

Labarbapostiza wrote:

Do you know, that an average Dublin house, can earn as much or more than the average Irish farm?

So what? You begrudge their good fortune despite the fact that it's never so clearcut. Supply and demand swings every which way over time.

Labarbapostiza wrote:

It's like a farmer complaining the cows won't milk themselves and they leave a mess everywhere. In fact it's much worse than that.

No, actually, it's not anything like the analogy that you present. It's clear from the outset what 'service' is provided when a tenant signs a lease. It's not an arrangement such as a hotel room with 'room service'. There is an expectation that the tenant returns the property in the same condition as it was provided to them (aside from reasonable wear and tear). That is a tenants RESPONSIBILITY.

Labarbapostiza

ZENER wrote: »

So, where is all this money the landlord is making allowing her to live a life of luxury ?!

You're giving me a hard luck story, that doesn't even have that much hard luck in it.

If owners have to subsidise a mortgage, too bad. But I'll only weep for them when the subsidy is 100%.

I'll give you a hard luck story. A friend moves into house, it's an absolute dump; it's low rent and it is all she can afford. The place is filthy and it's virtually destroyed. There are holes in everything. She does literally months of DIY, and getting help from friends. She transforms the place. It's completely unrecognisable from when she moved in. The landlady is very pleased. This next bit is a laugh. The landlady is so pleased, she decides that she wants (or sorry, needs) to move into the house.

There are tenants who move into nasty houses, fix them up nicely, and then get shafted.

makeorbrake

Labarbapostiza wrote: »

You're giving me a hard luck story, that doesn't even have that much hard luck in it. If owners have to subsidise a mortgage, too bad. But I'll only weep for them when the subsidy is 100%.

Ok, so you don't have to concern yourself with whether a landlord has to subsidise a mortgage in the same way as you won't concern yourself with a landlord letting a property profitably, right?

Labarbapostiza wrote: »

I'll give you a hard luck story. A friend moves into house, it's an absolute dump; it's low rent and it is all she can afford.

If it was such a dump, then don't move in. If she couldn't afford, then move to a different area - and if that means moving further afield, so be it.

Labarbapostiza wrote: »

There are tenants who move into nasty houses, fix them up nicely, and then get shafted.

A tenant shouldn't be carrying out capital improvements or renovations on a property. If the property is not fit for rental, don't rent it. It's that simple.

beauf

Labarbapostiza wrote: »

....Do you know, that an average Dublin house, can earn as much or more than the average Irish farm?..........It's like a farmer complaining the cows won't milk themselves and they leave a mess everywhere. In fact it's much worse than that.

Nearly two-thirds of Irish farms are not economically viable

http://businessetc.thejournal.ie/economically-viable-farms-908198-May2013/

I don't think you are making the point you think you are making.

Labarbapostiza

makeorbrake wrote: »

Ok, so you don't have to concern yourself with whether a landlord has to subsidise a mortgage in the same way as you won't concern yourself with a landlord letting a property profitably, right?

Personally, I rather see the landlord die before it turns a profit.

These people are not innovators or entrepreneurs - creating goods, service and wealth, through toil and the judicious application of capital.

They're middle-class people, who because of their "respectability" have been given mortgages, which other people will pay, and at the end of the term, give them a free house; as a pension.....A reward for all their wonderful hard work.

No, if they did actually earn money another way, and then invested in property, you could argue the rent was a fair return. But the fact is, most of these people are spongers. At least with the tinkers, it's only a drop a milk for the child, the spongers feel entitled to have you going every day working for them.

If it was such a dump, then don't move in. If she couldn't afford, then move to a different area - and if that means moving further afield, so be it.

A disabled woman, with children in the local school. Was she supposed to hit the road, and keep gong until she hit something affordable?...A shed on hillside in the Kerry mountains?.....Or maybe the sea.

A tenant shouldn't be carrying out capital improvements or renovations on a property. If the property is not fit for rental, don't rent it. It's that simple.

Don't give me the "free" choice clap trap. Landlords will rent dives, because there are enough people out there who have no other choice but to take what's on offer. It is literally, that or the street.

Tramps.

beauf

Labarbapostiza wrote: »

...There are tenants who move into nasty houses, fix them up nicely, and then get shafted.

They shouldn't be fixing them up. Its usually in the lease/contract that tenants can't do anything without the LL approval.

None of this has anything to do with this topic either.

dar100

Larry Wildman wrote: »

I'm a landlord and I expect my tenants to return my property to me in the same state that I would myself if I was a tenant.

There's a simple way to avoid the grief that the OP and other have described:

- Don't accept rent supplement

- Meet the prospective tenants yourself

- Only rent to professionals

- Only rent to "middle class" people

- Only rent to Irish people (with some exceptions, e.g. a French / American / British professional)

- Accept a lower rent in order to secure a better tenant (e.g. be happy to take €1,200 a month instead of €1,300 a month in order to get the solicitor and nurse rather than the taxi driver)

Wow, really... Wow. Discrimination on a number of grounds there

beauf

Labarbapostiza wrote: »

....They're middle-class people, who ..... have been given mortgages,......

How do you get given a mortgage?

Larry Wildman

dar100 wrote: »

Wow, really... Wow. Discrimination on a number of grounds there

Not discrimination...playing the odds to protect one's property.

Labarbapostiza

beauf wrote: »

http://businessetc.thejournal.ie/economically-viable-farms-908198-May2013/

I don't think you are making the point you think you are making.

No, I was making the point I was making. The income on the average Irish farm, before CAP payment is less than the average rental yield on a house in Dublin. Rent cattle are more productive than dairy cattle; and you have to put up with far less *****.

Labarbapostiza

Larry Wildman wrote: »

Not discrimination...playing the odds to protect one's property.

Like those people in American who burned down houses with the people inside, because they were black, and the neighbours were protecting their property value.

makeorbrake

Labarbapostiza wrote:

Personally, I rather see the landlord die before it turns a profit.

I don't think anyone is in any doubt about your begrudging attitude. It's coming through loud and clear.

Labarbapostiza wrote:

These people are not innovators or entrepreneurs - creating goods, service and wealth, through toil and the judicious application of capital.

They do provide a service. They provide use of a property in return for the rent a tenant pays.

Labarbapostiza wrote:

They're middle-class people, who because of their "respectability" have been given mortgages, which other people will pay, and at the end of the term, give them a free house; as a pension.....A reward for all their wonderful hard work.

Middle class? Respectability? What has this got to do with anything?! - other than its clear that you begrudge them any profit they may potentially make (and you begrudge them still even if they don't make any profit for the service provided - and there is a service provided despite your protests).

Labarbapostiza wrote:

No, if they did actually earn money another way, and then invested in property, you could argue the rent was a fair return.

lol What business is it of yours?! If they didn't provide a service, then why would anyone have any reason to sign a lease with one?

Labarbapostiza wrote:

But the fact is, most of these people are spongers. At least with the tinkers, it's only a drop a milk for the child, the spongers feel entitled to have you going every day working for them.

We're definitely in trolling territory here.

Labarbapostiza wrote:

A disabled woman, with children in the local school. Was she supposed to hit the road, and keep gong until she hit something affordable?...A shed on hillside in the Kerry mountains?.....Or maybe the sea.

If you can't afford where you are currently proposing to live or currently live, then yes, you move. I drive 400 miles /week comuting - as I located somewhere I could afford. That is the reality - and that was the solution to a REAL scenario. People have to take personal responsibility.

Labarbapostiza wrote:

Don't give me the "free" choice clap trap. Landlords will rent dives, because there are enough people out there who have no other choice but to take what's on offer. It is literally, that or the street.

See above.

Rubberchikken

it could be the quality of tenants you're getting.
lots of people rent and have respect for the property they are in.

also if you have no mortgages on them, maybe it would have been fairer to stick with the original rent and accept that.
plus, installing a proper shower/shower screen would be way more effective than a curtain.

a good quality letting agency would do a better job at screening would-be tenants also.

if you really dont want the hassle, then sell and put the money towards a house you would get pleasure from

Larry Wildman

Labarbapostiza wrote: »

Like those people in American who burned down houses with the people inside, because they were black, and the neighbours were protecting their property value.

Lol

So being choosy about who one rents to is akin to racially motivated murder.

Your mask is slipping.

dar100

Larry Wildman wrote: »

Not discrimination...playing the odds to protect one's property.

Your discrimination based on race, and unfortunately this act does not cover socio economic areas, but if it did...