The Holy Month of Ramadan is almost upon us

Tom Dunne

For those of you that were not aware, the Muslim holy month of Ramadan will start at the weekend (probably Saturday, depends on the sighting of the moon).

During the month, Muslims fast from sunrise to sundown. I would imagine it is particularly challenging in the likes of Ireland at this time of year with the long summer days and short nights.

It's actually quite an interesting time, living in a Muslim country. Just before sunset, there is an eerie silence on the usually packed streets and roads. This is because everybody is rushing back for the iftar feast, a lavish spread of food that is devoured once the sun sets. The great irony is that in a lot of Muslim countries, during Ramadan, people actually put on weight. Which seems to contradict the notion of fasting.

Eating, drinking and smoking in public is illegal for the month, however, as a non-Muslim, the locals are quite accommodating. In my place of employment, management have designated a number of places where non-Muslims can eat as normal.

Work hours are also reduced for the month and all restaurants only open after sunset. Bars are closed for the whole month (though, in the approach to Ramadan, I honestly cannot believe the offers the off-licenses are doing to ensure you stock up for the month, one of the many contradictions in the country).

When Ramadan is over, Muslims celebrate Eid. I always compare it to Christmas, where families get together for lavish feasts and swap presents.

I would be interested in hearing people's observations on Ramadan and Eid, including any traditions.

///3power

Tom Dunne wrote: »

It's actually quite an interesting time, living in a Muslim country. Just before sunset, there is an eerie silence on the usually packed streets and roads. This is because everybody is rushing back for the iftar feast, a lavish spread of food that is devoured once the sun sets. The great irony is that in a lot of Muslim countries, during Ramadan, people actually put on weight. Which seems to contradict the notion of fasting.

Guilty This year though, i'll try not to give in to my desire to stuff my face by night. You're right, it's contrary to what fasting is all about.

You know Tom, everyone is welcome to join in and fast with Muslims. You wouldn't believe the health and spiritual benefits from this fast. You're body becomes weak, but everything else strengthens.

So if you're ever puzzled by Muslims enthusiasm for Ramadan, this is why.

It's the one time in the year where submitters to God do something entirely for His sake, (even though we're the ones who benefit). So Muslims look forward to it every year, despite the challenge. Also, sins get wiped clean after each Ramadan.

Tom Dunne wrote: »

I honestly cannot believe the offers the off-licenses are doing to ensure you stock up for the month, one of the many contradictions in the country).

Indeed, people are misguided all over the world.

Tom Dunne wrote: »

When Ramadan is over, Muslims celebrate Eid. I always compare it to Christmas, where families get together for lavish feasts and swap presents.

I would be interested in hearing people's observations on Ramadan and Eid, including any traditions.

Christmas and the Eid festivals are both Holy-days. Other than that they have nothing in common.

Swapping gifts, to my knowledge is not a tradition observed in Islamic countries. Kids are given sweets and toys, but the whole "what did you get me" commercialized tradition doesn't exist.

In the lesser Eid (Eid al fitr), Muslims celebrate the end of fasting with a great feast. Each person with the means to do so, must give zakat al fitr. A special charity that must be given for every man, woman and child in a house. Every person in society is required by God to give a set charity to everyone who is less fortunate. It ensures everyone enjoys the Holy-day and no one is neglected.

In the greater Eid (Eid al adha), every family who has the means to do so slaughters an animal for the feast, to commemorate the sacrifice Abraham (peace be upon him) was willing to make.

When the animal is slaughtered, 2/3 of it is given to those less fortunate. And 1/3 is kept for themselves. Again, this ensures everyone in society can celebrate the Holy-day, so the festivities can be enjoyed by all.

I can smell the lamb tagine from here

Tom Dunne

///3power wrote: »

Swapping gifts, to my knowledge is not a tradition observed in Islamic countries. Kids are given sweets and toys, but the whole "what did you get me" commercialized tradition doesn't exist.

I would disagree.

The shopping malls and supermarkets here are already done up for Ramadam, in a manner very similar to the Christmas decorations you would see in Western shops and malls. Adverts are everywhere for "Ramadan deals" - cars, consumer electronics and food. Some shopping malls even stay open until about 2:00am.

I recall reading somewhere last year (I think it was this), that the Ramadan retail trade in Muslim countries was comparable to the Christmas retail trade in the west.

///3power

"Already" done up Tom? Ramadan starts tomorrow evening.

A far stretch from pagan decorations put up 2 - 3 months in advance.

Gifts being exchanged is not part of the tradition, simple as that. If some country is westernising it's malls, that's nothing got to do with Islam.

As for retail, of course Ramadan is good for business. It's the festive season! Like, obviously it's going to be good for business...

My point is that it's nothing like the Christmas tradition of everyone mad rushing buying presents. No. People are out preparing for Ramadan, and the special meals and traditions that go along with it.

Christmas and Eid are the main Holy-days of two nations.

Other than that there is no correlation.

If i was to go into what both represent i might offend people, so i wont. Did you know Christmas was banned there for a few hundred years?

I tell ya what Tom. Why don't you go around after the month and ask people "so what did you get for Ramadan?" and see what they say. lol.

MugMugs

I remember as a child one of my best friends followed Ramadan. This and his abstaining from pork were the only customs he really observed. Kids being kids, we obviously took the time to exploit this and ate our tasty meals in front of him but nonetheless the persevered with it.

I was always baffled about why it was run when daylight was as long as it is though but nontheless always admired his dedication.

Tom Dunne

///3power wrote: »

Other than that there is no correlation.

I'm not saying there is a correlation, I am merely drawing some parallels so people can get an idea what Ramadan is like. Whether you accept it or not, there is a growing commercialisation of Ramadan, certainly in the Middle East, presumably due to the higher wealth compared to other Muslim countries.

MugMugs wrote: »

I was always baffled about why it was run when daylight was as long as it is though but nontheless always admired his dedication.

I don't know if you are aware, but it shifts by 11 days each year as it is based on the cycle of the moon, rather than the cycle of the sun. That's why a lot of the symbolism to do with Ramadan (and the decorations I mentioned in a previous post) often incorporate the crescent of the moon.

///3power

To be honest, i've never experienced Ramadan in an Islamic country But i've been told about it and read up all the traditions, customs and laws and such.

From what i gather, Islamic countries in the ME are losing their religion in a big way. I suppose i don't want to accept that these sacred Holy days might become a shallow meaningless ritual based on selfishness and self-centredness, with no compassion (or even a spare thought given) for the less fortunate. People gluttonously gorging themselves on food until they can't move, whilst others are hungry and cold in the street on their block.

What the Eid festivals (should) represent are the opposites of that.

The traditions are Laws. Divine laws. So the thought of a national holiday where everyone is included and looked after fills my heart with hope for humanity.

Sorry if i'm annoying. lol.

Just to be a little more annoying Tom, symbolism is strictly prohibited in Islam in any shape or form. So the crescent moons on a mosque or as decorations, really shouldn't be there.
When the rules aren't followed people begin to worship crosses and the like. Of course a glittery moon as a decoration is harmless, but just to put it out there i must stress that there's no such thing as "symbolism to do with Ramadan". There's "transgression to do with Ramandan", alright. But no symbolism.

///3power

These Islamic forums should just be empty cus you can't do nothing lol

It's not like that though. The religion is just perfect that's all

Tom Dunne

///3power wrote: »

To be honest, i've never experienced Ramadan in an Islamic country But i've been told about it and read up all the traditions, customs and laws and such.

You've got to be kidding me. You are arguing with me over Ramadan yet I, as a non-Muslim, have more experience of Ramadan in a Muslim society than you?

///3power wrote: »

From what i gather, Islamic countries in the ME are losing their religion in a big way. I suppose i don't want to accept that these sacred Holy days might become a shallow meaningless ritual based on selfishness and self-centredness, with no compassion (or even a spare thought given) for the less fortunate. People gluttonously gorging themselves on food until they can't move, whilst others are hungry and cold in the street on their block.

Again, more opinion based on perception rather than fact. Have you ever actually visited a ME country for an extended period?

///3power wrote: »

What the Eid festivals (should) represent are the opposites of that.

The same could be said of Christmas.

///3power wrote: »

Sorry if i'm annoying. lol.

No, you are not annoying.

///3power wrote: »

Just to be a little more annoying Tom, symbolism is strictly prohibited in Islam in any shape or form. So the crescent moons on a mosque or as decorations, really shouldn't be there.
When the rules aren't followed people begin to worship crosses and the like. Of course a glittery moon as a decoration is harmless, but just to put it out there i must stress that there's no such thing as "symbolism to do with Ramadan". There's "transgression to do with Ramandan", alright. But no symbolism.

So the seven e-mails I have currently in my inbox, complete with beautifully decorated crescents, wishing me Ramadam Kareem, are a transgression? What about the decorations in the malls? Along the streets? On billboards that I see on my way to work every day? Surely if it was that big an issue a religious authority would prohibit it?

I thought it was idolatry that was prohibited in Islam rather than symbolism.

///3power

yep, i'm a noob Muslim.

No, never been to the ME but have been in other Islamic countries (2).

It's grand though cause i get to learn about the religion through the eyes of one completely untainted by presuppositions.

Like for example all the symbolism you mentioned being accepted as the norm now. When you do or witness something enough, you often forget it's prohibited. Like for example young ones here (back home) dating and sleeping around. The vast majority see nothing wrong with that. Now fornication is completely accepted. When one time in this society, you'd be feckin outcast hi.

Or the fact that usury is widespread and getting a loan and paying interest on it is seen as something completely normal. Even though it's prohibited by God in all the true religions. If you tried to tell someone down the local, that what banks do is against Gods law, they'd laugh at you and say you were nuts.

Do you see what i'm getting at? So all those Muslims circulating emails and putting up symbolic decorations, are in fact disobeying God without even knowing it. Well, maybe not the emails if it wasn't in a religious context. But any symbol used in a religious context is a no no.

God protects us from every angle of sin we might fall into, in Islam. So often it seems from an outsiders perspective that Muslims have too many stringent rules etc. Really, it's just God upholding His promise when He said in Qur'an 5:3 [highlight]"This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion."[/highlight]

Islam simply means submission. Everyone is born into Islam. Everyone will die in Islam. No choice in the matter.

The story of idols and symbols can be summed up really fast.
The first man millions of years ago, Adam (peace be upon him) was thought by God how to lead a righteous life, how to speak, and how to worship in a way appropriate. He in turn taught his family. At first everything was swell, everyone was righteous. After a few generations, the elders began to die (back then they lived for a long time), so the newer generations decided to erect statues to remember them, and to follow their example.

A few more generations pass, and soon people forgot/misunderstood (no doubt with the help of the satans) what the statues were for and fell into a grave sin by beginning to worship them. Hence forth idols were banned.

Basically anything that can lead us astray including idols and symbols, are prohibited in Islam. To my knowledge. Allah knows best.

The rejected one (Iblis) has promised to mislead us humans. God has told him that he will indeed succeed in misleading people, but those who God guides none can mislead, and i pray and beg that Allah (Glorified and Exalted be He) guides us and protects us all.

Tom Dunne

///3power wrote: »

To my knowledge.

And there we have it. That, my friend, is the issue here.

To your knowledge, not your experience. A substantial difference.

I am relaying my experiences of Muslims observing Ramadan in a Muslim society, you are merely offering your opinion on your perception of the idyllic Ramadan. They are worlds apart.

Lovely Bloke

So, I'm not a Muslim, but I work closely with a team of people in Cairo who are mostly Muslims.

I have a question to ask - will Friday Prayer Time me more important tomorrow than other "normal" weeks?

I have two weekly meetings with the team, and for the whole of Ramadan I've asked them if they'd like to move the time of it, we usually have it at half three Dublin time, which for Ramadan is half four there in Cairo, they were delighted to move it to an earlier time, and delighted I asked them. At the later time it's obviously harder for them to keep concentration and to give their full attention to the meeting, so I was happy to accommodate them.

Tom Dunne wrote: »

Ramadan Kareem

Thanks for this, I'll say it to them tomorrow, they'll be glad I took the time to learn it - I already know "Eid Mubarak" for the end of Ramadan.

///3power

Tom Dunne wrote: »

And there we have it. That, my friend, is the issue here.

To your knowledge, not your experience. A substantial difference.

I am relaying my experiences of Muslims observing Ramadan in a Muslim society, you are merely offering your opinion on your perception of the idyllic Ramadan. They are worlds apart.

Well, as this is the Islamic forum, i feel compelled to talk about Islam and not just observations of what people do. The last thing we want is more misguidance being spread, there's enough of that already. So i'm commenting here to rectify the malpractice you are witnessing and to ensure Islamic standards are known, to anyone who might read this. If this was the "what i observed the Muslims doing" section, i couldn't care less what is written. But as it is the Islam section. It's incumbent on every practising Muslim to relay any real information about the topic that they can offer. Especially, if the OP is unwittingly giving information that's contrary to Islamic practice. Ya dig?


When i say to my knowledge, i mean to my understanding of the religion.
Nothing to do with experience and definitely nothing to do with my own opinion.
When it comes to the laws God has sent down, my opinion isn't worthy of voicing itself. Muslims obey. End of story.

Symbolism, to my knowledge, is prohibited in Islam. Allah knows best.

Now, it has been a while since i came across the hadith or fiqh that addresses symbolism, but i must have acquired that knowledge somewhere for me to have that rigid stance. I would never be rigid about something unless i was sure it was prohibited.
Things left to interpretation or honest judgement, i keep to myself.

I'll try to find the source of info that outlaws religious symbolism and repost. If i don't, i stand to be corrected. Anyone with information on the subject is welcome to chime in. But i'm like 99.9% sure it's prohibited, just can't find the source.

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

So, I'm not a Muslim, but I work closely with a team of people in Cairo who are mostly Muslims.

I have a question to ask - will Friday Prayer Time me more important tomorrow than other "normal" weeks?

There should be no difference tomorrow.

Tom Dunne

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

Thanks for this, I'll say it to them tomorrow, they'll be glad I took the time to learn it - I already know "Eid Mubarak" for the end of Ramadan.

Here's an example of some of what I was talking about above:




I see a lot of these kind of decorations around malls, shops and roadsides in anticipation of Ramadan tomorrow.

Tom Dunne

///3power wrote: »

Symbolism, to my knowledge, is prohibited in Islam. Allah knows best.

Can I ask if you are a native English speaker? No disrespect intended, but I cannot help but feel you are mixing up symbolism with idolatry.

I really struggle with your contention that such symbolism is banned since I am surrounded by it. A cursory glance at a selection of the 500+ television channels available to me shows tv stations from around the Middle East also engaging in such symbolism. If it was prohibited, I severely doubt it would be so widespread.

///3power

The calligraphy is very beautiful alright.

I got this one myself



I honestly don't know if that's symbolism or just calligraphy. Some kind of hybrid. Calligraphy is abundant in the religion, symbolism is not. None existent except for these rare occurrences.

Yep i speck the english all my lifes. Little danish. Little arabic. Little as gaeilge. Have you picked up any arabic since? i'm trying to learn how to read it. Insha'Allah i'll make a big effort through Ramandan.

Just to reiterate, i'm talking about symbolism being prohibited in religion, not society.
Ramandan celebrations should be foremost about religion. TV and every other aspect of society is a different story altogether, there is no prohibition there.

But i guess national holydays are the one time in a year where society and religion intertwine to a climax in any culture, so i suppose some mixing of traditions from both ends are to be expected. If it manifests itself as some moon decorations being put up, i can understand. However, thanks be to God i also have the foresight, from the wisdom gained through Islam, to know that although a few harmless decorations might seem innocuous now. Fast forward a few hundred years (if we get that far. Not likely) and those innocent decorations WILL have evolved into obscene wasteful over the top blasphemies against God and generally satanic inspired/guided transgressions. While there is even one person going hungry in a society, any money wasted on such frivolity is inexcusable imho.

///3power

"those innocent decorations WILL have evolved into obscene wasteful over the top blasphemies against God"

Islam is a preventative religion. It's not a religion where you sin first, repent later. No, it's designed and perfected by God to guide us to not sin at all.

Which is why you observe Muslims in general leading a very high moral way of life.

There is no vicarious atonement, no Jesus mastercard to put your sins on. There's you. There's your Maker. And there's judgement.

So when it seems like there are many prohibitions in Islam, it's simply a way for God to guide and protect us from falling from His grace insha'Allah

rebel girl 15

I'm teaching in a school with a high number of Muslim children, all girls, who will be fasting for the month. It will be hard for them, with the heat we have and I admire all of them for doing it. Some of the girls were fasting a few weeks ago as well, not sure which festival that was for. Being a Catholic within a mostly Muslim school, I'm learning the whole time, and the girls are fairly open when I do ask them, which I'm glad of.

You mentioned Eid above, what festival was in November, I thought that was Eid? Our girls could take one authorised day off for that festival

Tom Dunne

There are in fact two Eids - Eid al fitr and Eid al-Adha. The first one marks the end of Ramadan. The second marks the willingness of Abraham to sacrifice his son to God. It's a few months after Eid Al Fitr.

Itssoeasy

I'm not Muslim but I work with a Muslim and have for five years and he is a devout Muslim so Ramadan is a big part of his life and I have to say I get the impression this is not easy to do. I have nothing but respect for those who observe it.

Oregano_State

///3power wrote: »

"Already" done up Tom? Ramadan starts tomorrow evening.

A far stretch from pagan decorations put up 2 - 3 months in advance.

Pagan? So you have a problem with non-Christian imagery being used in the modern celebration of a pre-Christian festival? Explain please.

///3power wrote: »

Gifts being exchanged is not part of the tradition, simple as that. If some country is westernising it's malls, that's nothing got to do with Islam.

Tell me what the commercialism of Christmas has to do with Christianity?

///3power wrote: »

As for retail, of course Ramadan is good for business. It's the festive season! Like, obviously it's going to be good for business...

Those are the exact words used by many to describe Christmas.

///3power wrote: »

My point is that it's nothing like the Christmas tradition of everyone mad rushing buying presents. No. People are out preparing for Ramadan, and the special meals and traditions that go along with it.

You said above that Ramadan has been commercialised; people are buying presents for each other. This may not be prescribed by Islam but it is what people are doing and I don't see how you can claim to know what their motivations are.

///3power wrote: »

Christmas and Eid are the main Holy-days of two nations.

Other than that there is no correlation.

If i was to go into what both represent i might offend people, so i wont. Did you know Christmas was banned there for a few hundred years?

I tell ya what Tom. Why don't you go around after the month and ask people "so what did you get for Ramadan?" and see what they say. lol.

The poster you are replying to was talking about the similarities between how Ramadan and Christmas are celebrated these days, particularly in respect to businesses capitalising on the willingness of people to spend money to mark these occasions. I don't believe he was attempting to draw comparisons between their religious beginnings.

You seem determined to put down any comparisons between the two festivals despite all of the obvious parallels and the inconsistencies in your points which I've highlighted.

I'm curious as to why. I'd like you to "go into what both represent". Most of all, I'd like to know why you seem to be so opposed to the idea of Islam and Christianity having something so tangible in common.

By the way, I say all of this as an atheist/agnostic, who has no great love for the RCC.

///3power

You said above that Ramadan has been commercialised; people are buying presents for each other.

I didn't say that.

As you have demonstrated recklessness in quoting me, and attributing false words to me. Along with the overall tone of your post being one of looking for an argument. I'm sorry to say i won't be responding to any of your questions.

I have no issue debating openly with someone who shows sincerity, and discussing/addressing relevant matters with them. However this section is not the section for vain talk or for arguing just for the sake of arguing.

May we all learn and better ourselves everyday
Peace be upon you

CrinkElite

It's a bit like lent no?

///3power

Qur'an 2:183
[highlight]O you who have believed, decreed upon you is fasting as it was decreed upon those before you that you may become righteous[/highlight]

"Those before you" i believe refers to Jews and Christians

CrinkElite

Ok

the_syco

///3power wrote: »

Gifts being exchanged is not part of the tradition, simple as that. If some country is westernising it's malls, that's nothing got to do with Islam.

Swap Islam with Christianity, and it'll be still true (in regards to xmas).

Tom Dunne

CrinkElite wrote: »

It's a bit like lent no?

Yes, somewhat.

The roads to work were eerily quiet this morning (workweek in the Middle East is Sunday to Thursday).

Jude13

Ramadam Kareem!! This will be my sixth in a Muslim country. The iftars are great.

The only downside is the vast increase in road deaths here and crazy driving of those racing home to feast.

Tom Dunne

Jude13 wrote: »

Ramadam Kareem!! This will be my sixth in a Muslim country. The iftars are great.

Yes, planning on experiencing an Iftar tomorrow evening, can't wait.

Canis Lupus

When I was cycle touring me and my mate headed over to norther Morocco with just over 1 week left of Ramadan thinking 'sure, 't'll be grand'. After a couple of days on the road we realised we'd made a mistake as getting food and supplies was becoming a serious concern.

We eventually passed a motel/restaurant of all things in the middle of literally nowhere. Decided to wait out ramadan there however the place was still effectively in shutdown so the first day we were starrrrrving. Bless the manager dude who realised the poor foreigners were possibly going to start eating his bed linen and sent us bread, cheese, dates and cakes every day free of charge.

Jude13

I am going to the gym after work today and water is banned even after sunset

I'll be in bits after it.

confusedquark

I'll add in my two cents regarding some of the issues that have cropped up in this thread.

Symbolism. As far as I'm aware, I don't think symbolism is prohibited (in the sense of a moon crescent being used to representing Islam). Certainly many Muslim-predominant countries have a moon crescent in their flag, and so long as people don't worship these symbols, they should be ok. (I am open to correction on this).

Ramadan Decorations. We do celebrate the start of Ramadan, but it's more of a case of sending "Ramadan Mubarak" or "Ramadan Kareem" messages to people you know, as opposed to putting up decorations as such. I'm not surprised businesses trying to cash in on the occasion by putting up decorations (I've seen supermarkets in the UK also put up "Ramadan Mubarak" signs), and whilst these decorations aren't a part of what Ramadan is or something prescribed by Islam, I equally don't think they are something which are strictly prohibited. That said, excesses and extravagance are things which are disliked in Islam, so whilst it's probably ok for businesses to put up a few signs, they shouldn't be spending a lot of money on their decorations.

Eid Celebrations/Commercialism. The day of Eid once again is a celebration, and one which is a bit more than "Eid Mubarak" messages. There's a special prayer at the local mosque, people have to pay zakat al fitr (charity), people wear their best clothes for the occasion (and don't have go out to buy new clothes for the occasion - as many do), visit relatives, and children are given money/presents - but adults do not generally exchange gifts. People do do all sorts to celebrate Eid across the world, but as this article puts it:

"Thus the Eid is not an occasion to take a vacation from Islamic responsibilities and commitments, nor to waste time and money in extravagance. It is not ‘fun for the sake of fun’. Rather, it is controlled and directed rejoicing that is of ultimate and definite benefit for the Muslim. The Eid is a chance to multiply good deeds by bringing happiness and pleasure to the hearts of other Muslims, by helping and supporting the poor and needy, and by getting involved in pastimes that emphasize the strong and serious Islamic character."

confusedquark

Jude13 wrote: »

I am going to the gym after work today and water is banned even after sunset

I'll be in bits after it.

How come water's banned even after sunset? Although I don't know why it would be banned before sunset - many people don't fast because of various medical conditions and am sure they need their water as well. Can't you have a drink in private somewhere? (assuming you're not fasting yourself)

Tom Dunne

confusedquark wrote: »

How come water's banned even after sunset? Although I don't know why it would be banned before sunset - many people don't fast because of various medical conditions and am sure they need their water as well. Can't you have a drink in private somewhere? (assuming you're not fasting yourself)

I was just about to ask the same question. Most surprising.

///3power

I was wondering the same.

The young, old, sick and travelling are also exempt from fasting so the idea of "banning" water is absurd. Maybe he means just in the gym.

I doubt there's a ban though. More so just an unwritten rule to refrain from drinking publicly out of respect if you're in a Muslim country.

Jude13

"I doubt there's a ban though. More so just an unwritten rule to refrain from drinking publicly out of respect if you're in a Muslim country."

This. Its the gyms policy, the filipino staff are terrified of getting bawled out by a local even after sunset so I sympathize with them. I did feel terrible after training. They (the staff) said if I come early in the morning 5-6 and there are no locals there I could have water.

My first ramadan here was fun. We had an office with a boardroom, there were only a few keys for it an I had one. A client came in for a chat so I unlocked the meeting room door to find the local fasting staff gorging on yogurts. They were afraid that if they were not seen observing the fast then they might not get to leave work at 1pm as was the ramadan hours.

iba

///3power wrote: »

yep, i'm a noob Muslim.

No, never been to the ME but have been in other Islamic countries (2).

It's grand though cause i get to learn about the religion through the eyes of one completely untainted by presuppositions.

Like for example all the symbolism you mentioned being accepted as the norm now. When you do or witness something enough, you often forget it's prohibited. Like for example young ones here (back home) dating and sleeping around. The vast majority see nothing wrong with that. Now fornication is completely accepted. When one time in this society, you'd be feckin outcast hi.

Or the fact that usury is widespread and getting a loan and paying interest on it is seen as something completely normal. Even though it's prohibited by God in all the true religions. If you tried to tell someone down the local, that what banks do is against Gods law, they'd laugh at you and say you were nuts.

Do you see what i'm getting at? So all those Muslims circulating emails and putting up symbolic decorations, are in fact disobeying God without even knowing it. Well, maybe not the emails if it wasn't in a religious context. But any symbol used in a religious context is a no no.

God protects us from every angle of sin we might fall into, in Islam. So often it seems from an outsiders perspective that Muslims have too many stringent rules etc. Really, it's just God upholding His promise when He said in Qur'an 5:3 [highlight]"This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion."[/highlight]

Islam simply means submission. Everyone is born into Islam. Everyone will die in Islam. No choice in the matter.

The story of idols and symbols can be summed up really fast.
The first man millions of years ago, Adam (peace be upon him) was thought by God how to lead a righteous life, how to speak, and how to worship in a way appropriate. He in turn taught his family. At first everything was swell, everyone was righteous. After a few generations, the elders began to die (back then they lived for a long time), so the newer generations decided to erect statues to remember them, and to follow their example.

A few more generations pass, and soon people forgot/misunderstood (no doubt with the help of the satans) what the statues were for and fell into a grave sin by beginning to worship them. Hence forth idols were banned.

Basically anything that can lead us astray including idols and symbols, are prohibited in Islam. To my knowledge. Allah knows best.

The rejected one (Iblis) has promised to mislead us humans. God has told him that he will indeed succeed in misleading people, but those who God guides none can mislead, and i pray and beg that Allah (Glorified and Exalted be He) guides us and protects us all.

Hi,

I am afraid that many of your posts are strewn with countless errors, for example:

You say:

Really, it's just God upholding His promise when He said in Qur'an 5:3 "This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion."

In fact:

God did not say anything in the Quran

You say:

Everyone is born into Islam. Everyone will die in Islam. No choice in the matter.

In fact:

I was not born into Islam. I will not die in Islam (I might die because of Islam but not in Islam). I have a choice.

You say:

The first man millions of years ago, Adam (peace be upon him)l.

In fact:

Adam was not the first man.

Regards

Tom Dunne

iba wrote: »

Hi,

I am afraid that many of your posts are strewn with countless errors, for example:

You say:

Really, it's just God upholding His promise when He said in Qur'an 5:3 "This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion."

In fact:

God did not say anything in the Quran

You say:

Everyone is born into Islam. Everyone will die in Islam. No choice in the matter.

In fact:

I was not born into Islam. I will not die in Islam (I might die because of Islam but not in Islam). I have a choice.

You say:

The first man millions of years ago, Adam (peace be upon him)l.

In fact:

Adam was not the first man.

Regards

Ok, can we stay on topic, please? For my sanity...

///3power

Jude13 wrote: »

This. Its the gyms policy, the filipino staff are terrified of getting bawled out by a local even after sunset so I sympathize with them. I did feel terrible after training. They (the staff) said if I come early in the morning 5-6 and there are no locals there I could have water.

So it's not actually "banned".

You can have water any time you want. So long as you have a shred of common courtesy.

Good job sounding melodramatic though.

Water is transparent, people can be even more so.

Tom Dunne

///3power wrote: »

So it's not actually "banned".

You can have water any time you want. So long as you have a shred of common courtesy.

Good job sounding melodramatic though.

Water is transparent, people can be even more so.

Attack the post, not the poster.

Jude13

///3power wrote: »

So it's not actually "banned".

You can have water any time you want. So long as you have a shred of common courtesy.

Good job sounding melodramatic though.

Water is transparent, people can be even more so.

You have mis-read my post by accident or by design, water after sunset in my gym banned as part of the gym policy. Good job sounding melodramatic though.

Drinking water in public during the hours of sunset is banned here.

Tom Dunne

A question for our Muslim friends.

It's over 2 hours after sunset here and there are what I assume to be prayers being relayed from the many mosques around me. .

Am I correct in saying these are some kind of Ramadan prayers? It certainly doesn't sound like a call to prayer, and is lasting a lot longer than the usual call to prayer.

Do people attend mosque after Iftar? (just back from the Iftar myself. I now understand why Muslims put on weight during Ramadam )

iba

Tom Dunne wrote: »

A question for our Muslim friends.

It's over 2 hours after sunset here and there are what I assume to be prayers being relayed from the many mosques around me. .

Am I correct in saying these are some kind of Ramadan prayers? It certainly doesn't sound like a call to prayer, and is lasting a lot longer than the usual call to prayer.

Do people attend mosque after Iftar? (just back from the Iftar myself. I now understand why Muslims put on weight during Ramadam )

It could be Tarawih

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarawih

confusedquark

Tom Dunne wrote: »

A question for our Muslim friends.

It's over 2 hours after sunset here and there are what I assume to be prayers being relayed from the many mosques around me. .

Am I correct in saying these are some kind of Ramadan prayers? It certainly doesn't sound like a call to prayer, and is lasting a lot longer than the usual call to prayer.

Do people attend mosque after Iftar? (just back from the Iftar myself. I now understand why Muslims put on weight during Ramadam )

Yeah, it's the Tarawih prayers. They're additional prayers which are said at the same time as Isha prayers (the fifth and final prayers of the day) during the month of Ramadan. Imams usually try to recite the entire Quran in Tarawih prayers during the month (about one-thirtieth of it every night), so that can take an extra 30-90 minutes a night - depending on how fast the Imam is!

Lol, it's hard not to gorge on food during Iftar and Sehri (and the five hours in between), and it's very easy to end up having more than what you usually would in a day, but I'm making a conscious effort to keep it to a minimum - no better time to lose a bit of flab!