are solar panels a success for heating water?

vanderbadger

just wondering are many of ye using them at home and how do ye find them? this time of year when range is off relying on immersion and kinda sick of hot water running out after a few mins, think i need to throw out old cylinder in any event but wondering if its worth fitting panels as well, i imagine they are still fairly expensive but you wouldnt mid that too much if they worked well

Charliebull

vanderbadger wrote: »

just wondering are many of ye using them at home and how do ye find them? this time of year when range is off relying on immersion and kinda sick of hot water running out after a few mins, think i need to throw out old cylinder in any event but wondering if its worth fitting panels as well, i imagine they are still fairly expensive but you wouldnt mid that too much if they worked well

they seem to work in fairness, i dont have first hand experience but feedback on projects seems to be positive, their efficiency is dependent on a few factors

1. Aspect of area to which they are fixed
2. Size of area available for installation
3. Size of Cycilinder and Insulation of Same

Username John

vanderbadger wrote: »

just wondering are many of ye using them at home and how do ye find them? this time of year when range is off relying on immersion and kinda sick of hot water running out after a few mins, think i need to throw out old cylinder in any event but wondering if its worth fitting panels as well, i imagine they are still fairly expensive but you wouldnt mid that too much if they worked well

This weather they are savage - the water is almost boiling over, but on very cloudy days, the water may not be very hot.

I think the cost was about 3k when we put them in - dont remember the size they are, so not much detailf ro you vander.
They need to be serviced now. I think you should budget for 100 / year for servicing.

They're good, but I'd be interested to see if anyone has a cost analysis on them.
3k over 25 years is ~100 / year (their efficiency will be dropping every year too I think, but maybe the same could be said for other heaters too)
+ 100 / euro for servicing
lets say 200 euro / year

That's 15euro / month for heating water alone. Would that pay for much electricty for heating water?

Deepsouthwest

Have them here and v happy with them. No oil used in our house since early april and won't be used again til late sept at the earliest. And u'll get plenty hot water on sunny days in the winter as well, but a few days of dull/misty weather and u'll need the boiler or someother back up plan

Greengrass1

Anyone have them on parlour? Would be A handy way of half heating the water at least?

emaherx

Have them on our house, there a very few days where the water is not hot.
In the winter the heating is on, so it is hard to tell how much benefit they are, but the heating is off here from End/Mid April until early/mid October.

In summer there might be a few days (very few) where the water is not as hot as we might like (but it will always be warm, so doesn't take much heat the rest of the way).

Water is currently 80 degrees in the tank. (anti scald valves are a must).

Oh and its Solar Tubes, not a flat glass panel, neighbours either side of me have the glass panel type and are not getting near as much hot water as we are.

happywithlife

Deepsouthwest wrote: »

Have them here and v happy with them. No oil used in our house since early april and won't be used again til late sept at the earliest. And u'll get plenty hot water on sunny days in the winter as well, but a few days of dull/misty weather and u'll need the boiler or someother back up plan

Ditto here

Am glad we got them in.
Even in winter water is warm so only needs a boost as opposed to heating cold water from scratch

Farmer Pudsey

I have them and a great job. Biggest mistake people make is under specing the system. Tubes are more efficient than panels but if not south facing you need to adjust for that.

when we put in our the roof was south east. Lads that advised me said 60 tubes. The lads in the plumbing shop taught he was crazy but we have hot water from late march-nearly October. Thermostatic mixer valves is a must and to get real value put in pumped mixer showers. Triton AS2000 is a very good mixer shower.

Down the line next washing machine will have a hot water intake as well. Even if you do not have solar thermostatic mixer off a tank is a good idea as it will mix hot with cold down to temp you think adequate.

It is not just cost savings it is a comfort during winter we always had hot water from central heating, however during the summer it was a nucience no hot water alot of the time. Now it is there on tap all the time.

epfff

Mine never worked
Think it was plumber
Need good 1 quickly

joejobrien

Advice is very important as Farmer pud. says put in plenty of tubes maybe double the amount. Be very careful of sales talk, a connection of herself is very unhappy with them. They require showers * 4 people in morn, but water is not up to comfortable temp. It requires top up by electricty( sales talk assured no need for immersion). Yes it heats by day but the hot water is consumed by evening and there is no sun to replenish same for the following morning . Now he is told he requires more tubes and a larger tank or install an another tank but guess what he aint gon space in house.....lives in a semi d. This also requires capital investment on top of what he has currently spent.
Just on the cost of 15/16 euro / mt this would nt include cost of electric usage during cloudy peroids, winter etc. therfore increasing the monthly cost. Its still good . Strongly suggest, get good advice
Does anyone run heat exchange heat pumps for hot water?

Deepsouthwest

Greengrass1 wrote: »

Anyone have them on parlour? Would be A handy way of half heating the water at least?

Don't know if it's viable, u'll still need to have an electric heater or something else for back up, so u end up having to pay for two systems

Oldtree

I have seen stuff about home made solar panels over the years made from old radiators painted black or just the ordinary black plastic water pipe, but both have been enclosed behind used double glazing panels of sorts and insulated.

here's one made earlier:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/property/greenproperty/7960539/Green-property-home-made-solar-panels.html

The water in the yellow hose on the poly tunnel floor can get to be roasting just lying there, and the water in the black hose even hotter, with air temps of up to 50 degrees some days.

_Brian

We've had them since 2009. 5sq M of flat panels.
They have far exceeded our expectations. No bother providing hot water when the weather when weather is good enough to have heating off. On the sunny days the damn water would scald you and if I'd known they would be so good I'd have out in a bigger water tank, can't remember what size the current tank is but it's six feet tall.
During winter it runs on any sunny day if you've used out the hot water. I've seen it running in a sunny day in Christmas week. We've only used the immersion about half a dozen times since moving in.
We also get a saving on oil as no matter what the water will have been heated somewhat so when the oil comes on it rarely has to heat the tank of water from cold, so heat goes straight to the radiators.

Sister was so impressed with it that she got it in too and is delighted.

vanderbadger

thanks all
sounds like for the most part they are a success, will deffo look into them

Sami23

Deepsouthwest wrote: »

Have them here and v happy with them. No oil used in our house since early april and won't be used again til late sept at the earliest. And u'll get plenty hot water on sunny days in the winter as well, but a few days of dull/misty weather and u'll need the boiler or someother back up plan

What do you use to heat the house on cold days during summer if not using oil. I'm interested as we have to put on the oil most days to heat water as don't have solar panels ?

Deepsouthwest

Sami23 wrote: »

What do you use to heat the house on cold days during summer if not using oil. I'm interested as we have to put on the oil most days to heat water as don't have solar panels ?

South facing house with big windows, the cavities are pumped and we put an extra layer of insulation on the inside when building, so it holds the heat for a few days, even a sunny day in the winter the house would be roasting

Charliebull

vanderbadger wrote: »

thanks all
sounds like for the most part they are a success, will deffo look into them

what is your primary method of heating the house, ie is it Oil Fired Central Heating, Geotheraml, Wood Pellet Stove, The an I ask is the efficiency of the Solar Panels is based on the system is it run in conjunction with

Deepsouthwest wrote: »

South facing house with big windows, the cavities are pumped and we put an extra layer of insulation on the inside when building, so it holds the heat for a few days, even a sunny day in the winter the house would be roasting

Solar Gain from South Facing aspects is phenomenal , but people have this myth that walls need to be drylined, Block walls are the best source of heat sump and a cavity wall with sufficient insulation in the cavity is the most efficient construction

vanderbadger

Charliebull wrote: »

what is your primary method of heating the house, ie is it Oil Fired Central Heating, Geotheraml, Wood Pellet Stove, The an I ask is the efficiency of the Solar Panels is based on the system is it run in conjunction with



Solar Gain from South Facing aspects is phenomenal , but people have this myth that walls need to be drylined, Block walls are the best source of heat sump and a cavity wall with sufficient insulation in the cavity is the most efficient construction

2 water systems in house...dont ask!
on my side there is oil range and immersion, oil range is off and either immersion or more likely tank is useless, other system work off oil heating and solid fuel stove and that works well, perhaps both system need to be combined really

Username John

vanderbadger wrote: »

2 water systems in house...dont ask!
on my side there is oil range and immersion, oil range is off and either immersion or more likely tank is useless, other system work off oil heating and solid fuel stove and that works well, perhaps both system need to be combined really

We have a solid fuel range, oil central heating and solar all working together. The biggest issue to date has been water boiling over.

I think you will need a good plumber, but hooking up the oil range & solar shouldn't be an issue. (he says, confidently, whilst not really knowing how it would all work)

_Brian

Username John wrote: »

We have a solid fuel range, oil central heating and solar all working together. The biggest issue to date has been water boiling over.

I think you will need a good plumber, but hooking up the oil range & solar shouldn't be an issue. (he says, confidently, whilst not really knowing how it would all work)

We have a similar system with all three working together.

Charliebull

it will be very efficient (provided its adequately sized, located and installed) when used with Oil Fired Central Heating,
solar panels are a waste of money when installed with a geothermal system

emaherx

Charliebull wrote: »

it will be very efficient (provided its adequately sized, located and installed) when used with Oil Fired Central Heating,
solar panels are a waste of money when installed with a geothermal system

Geothermal uses a lot of electricity to heat water, so not so sure that panels would be a waste of money unless you like high ESB bills.

Charliebull

emaherx wrote: »

Geothermal uses a lot of electricity to heat water, so not so sure that panels would be a waste of money unless you like high ESB bills.

Aaaaa no it doesn't it uses sweet FA actually

emaherx

Charliebull wrote: »

Aaaaa no it doesn't it uses sweet FA actually

Nice figure sweet FA. How come ESB need to upgrade your connection to handle an extra 5KVA.

Pump on solar panel is 45W.
Pump on geothermal is closer to 5000W

Geothermal is cheaper than oil, but dose not run on sweet FA

gctest50

Greengrass1 wrote: »

Anyone have them on parlour? Would be A handy way of half heating the water at least?

the integral tank kinda ones be a bit handier for that ?


http://www.navitron.org.uk/product_detail.php?proID=150&catID=116

joejobrien

Air source exchange heat pumps require only 1.06/day to heat 400 litres of water / day, everyday 365 days a year:cool:
Think that is fairly efficent.

Charliebull

emaherx wrote: »

Nice figure sweet FA. How come ESB need to upgrade your connection to handle an extra 5KVA.

Pump on solar panel is 45W.
Pump on geothermal is closer to 5000W

Geothermal is cheaper than oil, but dose not run on sweet FA

Ah well you seem to know what your talking about so I'll leave you too it,

Funny but, never had my ESB connection upgraded, and my heat pump is very efficient, but as long as your happy and I'm happy sur that's the main thing

emaherx

joejobrien wrote: »

Air exchange heat pumps require only 1.06/day to heat 400 litres of water / day, everyday 365 days a year:cool:
Think that is fairly efficent.

http://www.hpa.ie/faqs.html

Heat pumps cost about 1/3 that of oil to run. And combiened with solar the cost can be reduced further. I am not putting ground sourced or air sourced heat pumps down but was just replying to a previous post saying that combining with solar was pointless.

I

emaherx

Charliebull wrote: »

Ah well you seem to know what your talking about so I'll leave you too it,

Funny but, never had my ESB connection upgraded, and my heat pump is very efficient, but as long as your happy and I'm happy sur that's the main thing

I never said geo thermal was not effiecient. Just pointing out that solar panels not waste of money combined with that system. (free hot water versus cheap hot water).

Guessing that you may be a farmer, so may already have the nessacery upgraded connection.

Not trying to upset anyone here.

grazeaway

Put in the tubes when we were building the house, they are better then the panel. If your putting it in you would need to change the cylinder too. Wouldn't make sense if you were just sticking in panels, but if you were planning to change the cylinder too then it makes sense.

Once there is any bit of sun you ll get the water heated. Sizing will be key so if your putting in a bigger tank you ll need more tubes.

Was calculating the esb usage and we use about 2000kwhr a year which for a house is very good (have bought a lot of energy efficient goods). Reckon a lot is done to not having to use the immersion heater on the cylinder, we have the heating and stove for the winter months and they are tied into the hot water so it makes up for any cold weather.

_Brian

Interestingly if you have a standing body of water or a decent stream near the house these are good sources of heat for geothermal.

When we were building we looked at lots of geothermal and two factors dictate their success.
1. You need a well constructed insulated airtight house. Geo with underfloor works by passing a continuous small volume of heat energy. If you are loosing heat via air infiltration it requires the geothermal to run lots and becomes expensive.
2. Soil type for horizontal loops. Different soils will conduct heat differently, install a horizontal loop into the wrong soil and again your system will run longer to extract the heat and so cost more to run.

Then they also suffer from cowboys not understanding what They are installing. I know of two houses near here where between poorly built houses and poorly installed systems the ESB bills were €500-€800 a month all year round, and they were still wearing hoodies. Both have since installed oil to run underfloor which is cheaper but still costing a few hindered a month.

grazeaway

_Brian wrote: »

Interestingly if you have a standing body of water or a decent stream near the house these are good sources of heat for geothermal.

When we were building we looked at lots of geothermal and two factors dictate their success.
1. You need a well constructed insulated airtight house. Geo with underfloor works by passing a continuous small volume of heat energy. If you are loosing heat via air infiltration it requires the geothermal to run lots and becomes expensive.
2. Soil type for horizontal loops. Different soils will conduct heat differently, install a horizontal loop into the wrong soil and again your system will run longer to extract the heat and so cost more to run.

Then they also suffer from cowboys not understanding what They are installing. I know of two houses near here where between poorly built houses and poorly installed systems the ESB bills were €500-€800 a month all year round, and they were still wearing hoodies. Both have since installed oil to run underfloor which is cheaper but still costing a few hindered a month.

Yeah did look at the GT but decided against it. The FIL has it in his place but the price of electricity on the continent is much less then here. 1st person I know who got it in his house was a lad at work a few years ago. He too had a massive esb bill when he turned it on , was expecting it to charge up the system but wasn't getting smaller, one of the process engineers asked if he might if they had look at the system. Engineer calculated the pump was sized way too small and so was under pressure all the time. Put pressure on the installers and they put in a bigger pump, esb bill was quartered almost straight away.

emaherx

_Brian wrote: »

Interestingly if you have a standing body of water or a decent stream near the house these are good sources of heat for geothermal.

When we were building we looked at lots of geothermal and two factors dictate their success.
1. You need a well constructed insulated airtight house. Geo with underfloor works by passing a continuous small volume of heat energy. If you are loosing heat via air infiltration it requires the geothermal to run lots and becomes expensive.
2. Soil type for horizontal loops. Different soils will conduct heat differently, install a horizontal loop into the wrong soil and again your system will run longer to extract the heat and so cost more to run.

Then they also suffer from cowboys not understanding what They are installing. I know of two houses near here where between poorly built houses and poorly installed systems the ESB bills were €500-€800 a month all year round, and they were still wearing hoodies. Both have since installed oil to run underfloor which is cheaper but still costing a few hindered a month.

I have to agree poorly installed systems are a major issue. My 2 neighbours have west facing solar panels which are obviously too small. They always complain about their system. I have 60 solar tubes and rarely have no hot water.

joejobrien

emaherx wrote: »

http://www.hpa.ie/faqs.html

Heat pumps cost about 1/3 that of oil to run. And combiened with solar the cost can be reduced further. I am not putting ground sourced or air sourced heat pumps down but was just replying to a previous post saying that combining with solar was pointless.

I

yes, combined with solar ASHP can be more efficent, However additional capital cost have to be added along with ASHP.
I know that there are peoples figures flying around the place ..ie media, here say, articles, etc etc but I have a meter calculating my consumption for the heater and that heats water for a milking palour every single day 365 winter and summer. You dont need boreholes or digging up ground but place it in the plant room, plumb it and wire it up.
This doesnt require an immersion to top up either although it is installed on the heater , tank size 88 gls daily.
If that was a standard hot water immersion system my annual bill for hot water would be approx 1135 euro/yr

Oldtree

what put me off the idea of GT was the noise of the pump at night.

Farmer Pudsey

If you are doing a new build the most important thing to get right is insulation. This is the real saver a well insulated house will require little energy to run. It is then nearly immaterial what system you choose. I was advises that over twenty years ago, the following year I was buying kerosene at 16c/L. I was wondering had I wasted money.

I have a soild fuel stove in sitting room and an oil fired range. we use about 1000L of oil/year, we use smokeless union nuggets in the stove (about 15 bags/year), we buy a load of turf every 3 years and I cut my own timber. The oil heats up the house during the winter and the stove keeps it topped up from 6pm on.

On heat pumps is there starting to be an issue with cold spot around sources in certain area's

_Brian

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

If you are doing a new build the most important thing to get right is insulation. This is the real saver a well insulated house will require little energy to run. It is then nearly immaterial what system you choose. I was advises that over twenty years ago, the following year I was buying kerosene at 16c/L. I was wondering had I wasted money.

I have a soild fuel stove in sitting room and an oil fired range. we use about 1000L of oil/year, we use smokeless union nuggets in the stove (about 15 bags/year), we buy a load of turf every 3 years and I cut my own timber. The oil heats up the house during the winter and the stove keeps it topped up from 6pm on.

On heat pumps is there starting to be an issue with cold spot around sources in certain area's

This is it..
Insulation and airtight where practical.

Similarly we have a multifuel stove, oil for convenience which uses ~750l a year and solar, our solar is something just over 5sq M, faces SW and has been a good success.

But when building we researched insulation and ensured it was well above the minimum and that detailing to reduce air infiltration was a major focus of workmen.

Charliebull

_Brian wrote: »

This is it..
Insulation and airtight where practical.

Similarly we have a multifuel stove, oil for convenience which uses ~750l a year and solar, our solar is something just over 5sq M, faces SW and has been a good success.

But when building we researched insulation and ensured it was well above the minimum and that detailing to reduce air infiltration was a major focus of workmen.

the two most important factors in house construction, insulate it well and seal it well, achieve as much solar gain as possible and the rest will look after itself

if using a heat pump ensure that the pipe spacing in the floor matches the external wall to floor ratio, heat pump should not be noisy,
vertical boreholes while more expensive are better as you will achieve a constant ground source temperature all year around

John T Carroll

joejobrien wrote: »

yes, combined with solar ASHP can be more efficent, However additional capital cost have to be added along with ASHP.
I know that there are peoples figures flying around the place ..ie media, here say, articles, etc etc but I have a meter calculating my consumption for the heater and that heats water for a milking palour every single day 365 winter and summer. You dont need boreholes or digging up ground but place it in the plant room, plumb it and wire it up.
This doesnt require an immersion to top up either although it is installed on the heater , tank size 88 gls daily.
If that was a standard hot water immersion system my annual bill for hot water would be approx 1135 euro/yr

What is your yearly consumption (now) as per the meter please Joe.

893bet

Insulation, airtigtness are well and good but don't forget ventilation !

Sami23

893bet wrote: »

Insulation, airtigtness are well and good but don't forget ventilation !

Bit of a conflict there between airtightness and ventilation

_Brian

Sami23 wrote: »

Bit of a conflict there between airtightness and ventilation

Not at all. If your building you'd need to know the difference.
Having an airtight structure ensures that unwanted air isn't passing in/out of the structure and removing heat with it in an uncontrolled manner.

Ventilation is a process of allowing fresh air in when desired to keep the air in the house fresh and avoid damp , ventilation systems can be as simple or complicated as you want but should all be completly controllable.

893bet

_Brian wrote: »

Not at all. If your building you'd need to know the difference.
Having an airtight structure ensures that unwanted air isn't passing in/out of the structure and removing heat with it in an uncontrolled manner.

Ventilation is a process of allowing fresh air in when desired to keep the air in the house fresh and avoid damp , ventilation systems can be as simple or complicated as you want but should all be completly controllable.

Pretty much. Be very care full if attempting to make an older house more airtight without considering ventilation.

I am no expert. Only reason I know anything is that I am in the middle of a new build so the 4 corner stones of insulation, air tightness, ventilation and cold bridging is all I think about.

Sami23

893bet wrote: »

Pretty much. Be very care full if attempting to make an older house more airtight without considering ventilation.

I am no expert. Only reason I know anything is that I am in the middle of a new build so the 4 corner stones of insulation, air tightness, ventilation and cold bridging is all I think about.

If a room is airtight how can it be ventilated also as air would be getting in. So can't hav rooms airtight

munkus

Sami23 wrote: »

If a room is airtight how can it be ventilated also as air would be getting in. So can't hav rooms airtight

Heat recovery ventilation system. You have vents ran to each room, some suck in warm air from kitchen and bathrooms, and blows it into the other rooms. Can also induce heat in winter.

893bet

munkus wrote: »

Heat recovery ventilation system. You have vents ran to each room, some suck in warm air from kitchen and bathrooms, and blows it into the other rooms. Can also induce heat in winter.

Not quiet. Stale air is removed and fresh air brought in from outside. A heat exchange takes heat from warm stale air and transfer to the fresh air meaning no heat or energy is lost.

Not sure what you mean by induce heat?

grazeaway

893bet wrote: »

Not quiet. Stale air is removed and fresh air brought in from outside. A heat exchange takes heat from warm stale air and transfer to the fresh air meaning no heat or energy is lost.

Not sure what you mean by induce heat?

Ventilation is different to draughts. You get to a stage when insulating the house where you have to start looking at air circulation. Air tightness and insulation is great but what happens the is due to having no air leaks and draughts there is now circulation in the house, this can then cause mould and condensation from the stale air. Opening a window or putting in trickle vents essentially makes all the work insulating the house redundant.

As others have said MHRV systems are what are usually required at that stage. You draw warm moist air out of your bathrooms, utility room and kitchens, this is sucked up and out to the outside and the heat taken from the air. Fresh air is the. Darn in from out side, heated by the air taken out and left into your bedrooms and living rooms. The air then circulates around the house keeping fresh air in the house.

Farmer Pudsey

As a matter of interest are heat recovery ventilation systems expensive to buy install and to run

moy83

I could be way off the mark but I have a figure of €1 per square foot to supply and fit . I don't know anything about running/maintenance costs but I wouldn't think it dear .

Farrell

moy83 wrote: »

I could be way off the mark but I have a figure of €1 per square foot to supply and fit . I don't know anything about running/maintenance costs but I wouldn't think it dear .

How practical are they to install into an existing dwelling?

moy83

Farrell wrote: »

How practical are they to install into an existing dwelling?

I'm not very well up on them but I've seen them in plenty of new houses by now . It wouldn't be easy to retro fit them , it would be like bringing a sewer pipe from all your heat sources up to the unit (usually in the eaves ) and piping back to bedrooms and living rooms .
I suppose you could box them on surface walls but it would look ugly .
Is your house airtight already ?