Drafting 2014 Bitchfest Megathread :(

Kurt Godel

Didn't want to sully the above post with a negative that is out of the hands of the organisers... but the levels of blatant drafting on display today was disgraceful. A train passed me with members of ActiveMulti, Piranha Tri, Fingal Tri, 3D Tri... I biked past them all and asked if they even cared that they were drafting? It broke up half-heartedly after that but soon reformed. Lads (and lasses) if you are going to cheat, it'd be easier to "lose" your timing chip and cut the course before the turnaround. The TI official was very explicit on what a draft zone was. Sure, there was congestion on the bike course, but you surely know yourselves that if you suck someones wheel for an extended period (I'm talking km's rather than seconds here), you're cheating others in the race.

MOD: I've moved all the HOBC drafting posts to this thread. This one might run quite a while this summer. Think its best to keep all drafting discussion here rather than have every race thread descend into a moan about drafting.

RacoonQueen

One group that passed me rode so close to the girl ahead of me that they nearly took her off her bike. I didn't get any race numbers but they were ahead of me from 5K to the turnaround, I think I lost sight of them after that/they broke up a bit but still a lot of dratfing ahead and lots of groups of 2's and 3's. I was passed by half the field so I'm extra bitter. :P

What annoyed me the most was a MO going in the other direction, beeped at it. Why not turn around and follow them, or contact another official to do so.

Brick Session

Kurt Godel wrote: »

Didn't want to sully the above post with a negative that is out of the hands of the organisers... but the levels of blatant drafting on display today was disgraceful. A train passed me with members of ActiveMulti, Piranha Tri, Fingal Tri, 3D Tri... I biked past them all and asked if they even cared that they were drafting? It broke up half-heartedly after that but soon reformed. Lads (and lasses) if you are going to cheat, it'd be easier to "lose" your timing chip and cut the course before the turnaround. The TI official was very explicit on what a draft zone was. Sure, there was congestion on the bike course, but you surely know yourselves that if you suck someones wheel for an extended period (I'm talking km's rather than seconds here), you're cheating others in the race.

This reminds me of the guy who took the bus at the London Marathon, the only person / people they are cheating on is them selves.

Ceepo

Brick Session wrote: »

This reminds me of the guy who took the bus at the London Marathon, the only person / people they are cheating on is them selves.

Don't think I would agree with you there.
They are cheating everyone that is trying to Race honest

mossym

Brick Session wrote: »

This reminds me of the guy who took the bus at the London Marathon, the only person / people they are cheating on is them selves.

?? sorry but that's a crazy statement This was a national series race. even if you're not looking to win the thing, people are competing for points. drafters are cheating everyone.

the "ah sure leave them off " approach is encouraging more and more of it.

Brick Session

What I meant lads is that by not following the rules like everyone else and doing an honest race that along with cheating everyone else the main person they are fooling is themselves.

I don't agree with the "ah leave them off" mentality either, TI had 2 bike officials there to police that and they should have.

RacoonQueen

Brick Session wrote: »

What I meant lads is that by not following the rules like everyone else and doing an honest race that along with cheating everyone else the main person they are fooling is themselves.

I don't agree with the "ah leave them off" mentality either, TI had 2 bike officials there to police that and they should have.

Do clubs have to pay for bike officials? Not one passed me by (in the direction I was going). The one that saw the peloton ahead of me, can he not to a u-turn and follow it and break it up?

Other times I saw MO they were at the back end of things where there was not enough competitors for drafting.

Groups I saw, for the most part were far too big to even take numbers. If I had joined that group I would have gained more than 4 minutes (on the bike), nevermind what I may have gained on the run from an easier bike.

The main one that overtook me was too big for me to overtake, I tried to overtake and ended up joining it so dropped back. Two of them were also over the white line, which meant they were putting cyclists going back into Dunmore East into danger.

All of them should have been DQ'd. Risk of a 4 min penalty not enough of a deterrent seemingly.

mirrormatrix

Did anyone get a penalty yesterday? I'm totally pissed off with this nonsense myself. Got passed by a bunch of about 12 lads myself. Was practically a peleton. Had to go right out to the white line to get past them the group was so wide. Which was a total waste of effort as they went right by me again almost straight away. Called them all cheats on the way past but sure they didn't pay a blind bit of notice.

That's maybe 10 places I was cheated out of yesterday. I can't understand why people can't race by the rules.

Kurt Godel

Mods- any chance this drafting discussion can be moved to its own thread? The Hook or by Crook crew put on a great race yesterday, maybe its a little unfair to them that most of the discussion after their race focusses on a negative they can do nothing about?

Podge83

Fair point Kurt.

It is about time something was done though.

From an organizational point of view If they want to stop drafting the numbers must be reduced. If everyone consciously tried to avoid drafting, riders would be almost stopping at times. There are just too many bikes out on most courses and with two way traffic on open roads, there is just too much going on on the road to do a proper time trial. The exception is the few out front.

Numbers cant be reduced as the races would become unviable and god knows entries to decent races are scarce enough.

Bigger staggers on wave starts may help - put 20 minutes between waves (or more). Why not make waves smaller. I know races would go on for half the day but it would help.

Very frustrating yesterday and looking at the bike officials, in fairness to them where do they start. If they went for everyone who was cheating the penalty box officials would be busy!!!! They cant bust just a few for a few token entries on the penalty board.

I spent the cycle trying to avoid drafting and it surely cost me a lot of time, which surely cost be positions etc.

IMO the rule is unenforceable in the shorter popular races as things stand - simple as that.

Oh and to the organizers - they seemed to have listened to last years moans. The only problem is the busy out and back bike course - common with many other races though

tunney

Podge83 wrote: »

Fair point Kurt.

It is about time something was done though.

From an organizational point of view If they want to stop drafting the numbers must be reduced. If everyone consciously tried to avoid drafting, riders would be almost stopping at times. There are just too many bikes out on most courses and with two way traffic on open roads, there is just too much going on on the road to do a proper time trial. The exception is the few out front.

Numbers cant be reduced as the races would become unviable and god knows entries to decent races are scarce enough.

Bigger staggers on wave starts may help - put 20 minutes between waves (or more). Why not make waves smaller. I know races would go on for half the day but it would help.

Very frustrating yesterday and looking at the bike officials, in fairness to them where do they start. If they went for everyone who was cheating the penalty box officials would be busy!!!! They cant bust just a few for a few token entries on the penalty board.

I spent the cycle trying to avoid drafting and it surely cost me a lot of time, which surely cost be positions etc.

IMO the rule is unenforceable in the shorter popular races as things stand - simple as that.

Oh and to the organizers - they seemed to have listened to last years moans. The only problem is the busy out and back bike course - common with many other races though

Vote with your feet. This is the responsibility of the organisers as well as TI.

Podge83

tunney wrote: »

Vote with your feet. This is the responsibility of the organisers as well as TI.

What can the organizers do?

Can they pay for more Bike officials over the norm? They are the ones who organize the waves etc agreed, but a few posts on here won't change that.

TI can set some guideline to follow. They can give preference to races that are easier to police when deciding on NS races. As things stand though, the rule is unenforceable.

When you say "vote with your feet" are you suggest that i don't race any more? All that'll do is pi55 me off and won't effect anything else as someone else will gladly take the place?

tunney

Podge83 wrote: »

What can the organizers do?

Can they pay for more Bike officials over the norm? They are the ones who organize the waves etc agreed, but a few posts on here won't change that.

TI can set some guideline to follow. They can give preference to races that are easier to police when deciding on NS races. As things stand though, the rule is unenforceable.

When you say "vote with your feet" are you suggest that i don't race any more? All that'll do is pi55 me off and won't effect anything else as someone else will gladly take the place?

It can be worked out based on the length of the bike course and the number of laps the maximum number that can be in a race before drafting becomes inevitable. Organisers could cap the number of entries so this number is not exceeded and drafting reduced.

Podge83

tunney wrote: »

It can be worked out based on the length of the bike course and the number of laps the maximum number that can be in a race before drafting becomes inevitable. Organisers could cap the number of entries so this number is not exceeded and drafting reduced.

Now your'e talking - get someone to listen and were on the pigs back!!!

Podge83

While i'm at it I did a bit of maths - 550 in race yesterday - 12m draft Zone - thats 6.6 km of zone taken up by competitors alone - that's over a quarter of the course.

Jasas put that to a multi lapped event like Dublin city Tri and it is probably impossible not to draft!!

And next week we can ressurrect this one!!

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=85316421

At the moment we must live with this. But at least we can have good give out on here!!

RacoonQueen

Podge83 wrote: »

While i'm at it I did a bit of maths - 550 in race yesterday - 12m draft Zone - thats 6.6 km of zone taken up by competitors alone - that's over a quarter of the course.

Well, technically not. Assuming the second wave went off at least 10 minutes after the first. Trevor was out of the water by the time the second wave started. His 31 minute cycle was faster than the swim of the last person to finish (37 minutes). So he was out on the run by the time she was getting on her bike!

A solution is more waves with smaller numbers in them(though that could make the swim a bit crap) Personally I think it's mad having the male over 40's in with the wimmen.

Problem with more waves is the race takes longer and Irish people are not good at having a whole 10K of their roads closed off for a day.

Podge83

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Well, technically not. Assuming the second wave went off at least 10 minutes after the first. Trevor was out of the water by the time the second wave started. His 31 minute cycle was faster than the swim of the last person to finish (37 minutes). So he was out on the run by the time she was getting on her bike!

I had to post this when i read that... ))))))

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152614824187122&set=a.10152614809172122.1073741862.216304062121&type=1&theater

https://scontent-a-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/t1.0-9/p480x480/10406782_10152614824187122_246397637585365538_n.jpg

Kurt Godel

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Problem with more waves is the race takes longer and Irish people are not good at having a whole 10K of their roads closed off for a day.

Agree with this, there's only so much local goodwill a club can get from a small village that relies on weekend holiday motorists. They want to put on a good race that is popular because its good.

The problem is with the individual athletes cheating, rather than enforcement issues. I encountered a lot of congestion, and found easy ways not to draft. Would the individual athletes be happy to shoplift if they could get away with it? To cheat in business? To tell their kids to cheat on other kids? Ask yourself, why is it ok to cheat your fellow athletes? (and "because I can get away with it" isn't a good answer).

littlemsfickle

These arguments about how it's almost impossible not to draft at some point with so many competitors on the course at once don't account for people riding in "pelotons" though. There's no excuse for people getting away with riding in an organised pack, especially if as RQ says they are actually seen by an MO.

Kurt Godel

littlemsfickle wrote: »

These arguments about how it's almost impossible not to draft at some point with so many competitors on the course at once don't account for people riding in "pelotons" though. There's no excuse for people getting away with riding in an organised pack, especially if as RQ says they are actually seen by an MO.

Not a lot the MO can do if their numbers are scrunched up so can't be read (at least 3 of a train of 7 had their numbers like this- I couldn't read them as I biked past, and it looked very deliberate). Its a bit of a joke really- at least you can hammer the feckers in the swim:D

mossym

Kurt Godel wrote: »

Not a lot the MO can do if their numbers are scrunched up so can't be read (at least 3 of a train of 7 had their numbers like this- I couldn't read them as I biked past, and it looked very deliberate). Its a bit of a joke really- at least you can hammer the feckers in the swim:D

easy. can't read a number, stop them. iron fist for a while is needed.

littlemsfickle

Kurt Godel wrote: »

Not a lot the MO can do if their numbers are scrunched up so can't be read (at least 3 of a train of 7 had their numbers like this- I couldn't read them as I biked past, and it looked very deliberate). Its a bit of a joke really- at least you can hammer the feckers in the swim:D

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=777612015617516

Simples.

Green&Red

In DCT last year they had a thing where if you were reported as drafting by three different marshalls you were pinged, a great idea I thought although easier for DCT as it is laps

cart man

I was in wave 1 and met someone from wave 2 in T2 , looking at the times it means the waves were only 7 minutes apart.

Originally Posted by RacoonQueen View Post

Problem with more waves is the race takes longer and Irish people are not good at having a whole 10K of their roads closed off for a day.

Doing some quick maths, had the women gone in their own wave at the start and then the men divided into 2 waves each wave 7 mins apart the bikes would have been out on the course for 3 minutes less than they actually were!
First Bike Last Bike Length of time
Actual 11:12:07 12:44:35 01:32:28
3 waves women only 1st 11:13:24 12:42:30 01:29:06

speedyj

Yeah was at a race at the weekend and a group of drafting w@€)k3rs came flying past. I tried to get on their tail but they were too fast.. I shouted at one of em to wait up, but he just slid his number belt around to the front and left me there. Selfish b*****ds!

miller82

speedyj wrote: »

Yeah was at a race at the weekend and a group of drafting w@€)k3rs came flying past. I tried to get on their tail but they were too fast.. I shouted at one of em to wait up, but he just slid his number belt around to the front and left me there. Selfish b*****ds!

sorry about that, but i didnt want to lose the group

bryangiggsy

Every year its the same discussion....drafting is always going to be an issue on the majority of tri courses in Ireland..because the majority of tri's are one or two wave starts.....on narrow roads..where groups can congregate. Put too many people on the road of same abilities at once and boom...drafting or pelotons occur

Your pi**in against the wind if you think its going to change.

Your rarely see drafting in Athy or Athlone because of the age group wave starts. Thats the only way it can be nearly eradicated.

Kilkee will be a draft fest Sat. Best you can hope for is they guy you racing against does not break the rules.

bryangiggsy

One other thing complain about drafting all you want.

But at the end of the day if they strong enough to go by you....you have not worked hard enough on the turbo during the winter.......eh miller 82 :pac:

Dory Dory

Drafting.....I can't help but think of what Chrissie Wellington wrote in her book Life Without Limits regarding this topic. Granted, she wasn't talking about pelotons motoring past her, but rather when a cyclist tries to hang onto her....

"Don't underestimate the use of urine as a weapon. On the bike it is forbidden to take advantage of someone's slipstream, even though it is allowed in the swim. We call it drafting. To get too close to the bike in front is not only dangerous but cheating. There are a series of penalties for anyone caught doing it, but people still do. If anyone does it to me, I let off a warning shot, and they usually back off. It is yet another reason to keep yourself hydrated."

miller82

time will tell my friend, time will tell !!!

watch out for snot rockets....amongst other things .....just a heads up

Podge83

Remember on Saturday... after Kilkee's tough swim... scrunch up the number, get on the bike and relax.... Just make sure you follow a nice ar5e...

tunney

Podge83 wrote: »

Remember on Saturday... after Kilkee's tough swim... scrunch up the number, get on the bike and relax.... Just make sure you follow a nice ar5e...

And even if you get done, its still worth it as the penalties so light

tunney

tunney wrote: »

And even if you get done, its still worth it as the penalties so light

So I gather this was actually the attitude adopted. Peletons of riders, few penalties, groups of tenet plus riders. Total farce is what I was told. Is there a pint to racing in Ireland anymore?

Podge83

tunney wrote: »

So I gather this was actually the attitude adopted. Peletons of riders, few penalties, groups of tenet plus riders. Total farce is what I was told. Is there a pint to racing in Ireland anymore?

Farce....... No........ Its all about getting away with it. Yeeha

damo80

You'd say something if it was a train of 10 riders but there were groups off 30 odd riders spread across both lanes today. There only so much a marshal can do.

Fazz

Indeed it was a shame for a National Champs, but also a result of the high standards and competition.

The problem for me is the marshalling, and of course the guilty parties who of course can't measure out 10 metres of road ahead of them, or acknowledge they have 5 seconds to drop back when passed not make a surge and try hold on...

Personally, I thought the Bike Marshals were shocking at Kilkee.
Having raced Tri an Mhi where there were a lot of penalties dished out for a small field - 28 or so and around 15% of the entries, Kilkee had as far as I know maybe 6 dished out for 5 times the field!
There were only 2 numbers when I passed the penalty box but heard later this may have risen to 6.

So the marshals were plainly far too lenient.
Yes there's a lot of athletes on the road, and you can't penalise everyone but at least do something instead of nothing!
For a National Champs it really put a dampener on it.
Did it effect the top results? Well, from what I saw it quite possibly did for the females but men's perhaps not so much.

I also witnessed some very dangerous cycling that went unpunished when it was right beside a marshal and a bike marshal followed and had words with the competitor. Bizarre. It was a DQ offence alone and could have caused a very serious accident for the competitor or anyone coming against him.

I've a little more on the subject but don't think this is the right place for it and can't upload video.
May post something to my site soon on it.

Green&Red

The TI website says

"Please Note: there were a large number of penalties and DQ's issued for offences such as drafting"

Is 6 a large number?

Fazz

No it's not. Did this rise at all I wonder?

Tri an Mhi had 30 penalties applied to around 200 competitors. So 15% then.

Kilkee. Well, not worth mentioning is it.

Really hope they sort it for Lost Sheep, I witnessed a too 5 athlete draft there last year and all it takes is for a few bike marshals to at least monitor the top 10 or so to ensure prizes aren't affected.

The rest is down to allowing numbers of athletes on the course at same time.
At least Lost Sheep has a climb to break things up early.
Kilkee allowing mad numbers is always going to be virtually impossible to monitor especially in the big fields/most groups out at same time.

RacoonQueen

Why are DQ's and penalties not listed as part of the results?

Should be beside the name etc...no shame in it if 98% of people don't know you were caught cheating.

miller82

its great that no one on here drafts and everyone is so against it. what are the chances

mossym

miller82 wrote: »

its great that no one on here drafts and everyone is so against it. what are the chances

or that those who do keep their mouth shut...;)

Huff n Puff

miller82 wrote: »

its great that no one on here drafts and everyone is so against it. what are the chances

The only person I truly believe is Fazz! But given the right circumstances I believe even Ian would - maybe a dodgy pace line at the Ironman later this year!

Everyone else is claiming to be whiter than snow. Highly unbelievable. I am not even that white myself and I am well able to cycle.

At some point nearly everyone drafts, be it pulling out too close to someone. Pulling out of a draft box too slowly. Tucking in behind someone for 20 seconds as they pass. Blaming others as we pass in and out of the draft zone at the back. Its very hard not to draft given the structure and popularity of Irish races. Its not just Irish races; drafting has always been an issue and always will be.

Try and enjoy the race and don't get too hung up on the drafting. Yes some races are worse than other and hopefully a solution comes soon but don't let that spoil the fun of race day.

mossym

i think peoples main gripes were the rolling peletons that knew enough about what they were doing to break up at the sight/sound of a motorbike.

I'm pretty sure, as Shane said, you could decimate the field if you dq'd everyone for even the slightest transgression.

tunney

mossym wrote: »

i think peoples main gripes were the rolling peletons that knew enough about what they were doing to break up at the sight/sound of a motorbike.

I'm pretty sure, as Shane said, you could decimate the field if you dq'd everyone for even the slightest transgression.

And what harm:

"Oh sh1t mossym is the race ref, you hear he dq'ed the top twenty in XYZ??? Best race legal"

Also technically decimate is one in ten, so thats 100 out of 1000 in kilkee, or fair as I have been told

transylman

One Strava feature that the drafters appear to be unaware of is the activity playback.

http://labs.strava.com/flyby/viewer/#159656166

note:not my segement, using this one as he does not appear to have been drafting

Pretty obvious train forming at the front half way through and only breaking up again going up the hill again on the return. I also know some of these guys to have done the same thing in at least one other race this year.

lopesc

transylman wrote: »

One Strava feature that the drafters appear to be unaware of is the activity playback.

http://labs.strava.com/flyby/viewer/#159656166

note:not my segement, using this one as he does not appear to have been drafting

Pretty obvious train forming at the front half way through and only breaking up again going up the hill again on the return. I also know some of these guys to have done the same thing in at least one other race this year.

That's not what that app does. Unless everyone started the bike at the same time, you can't infer that anybody was drafting using activity playback.

transylman

lopesc wrote: »

That's not what that app does. Unless everyone started the bike at the same time, you can't infer that anybody was drafting using activity playback.

Yes it is, everyones positions are given in real time.

Green&Red

Heres two scenarios that came up on Sunday, in a much smaller race

Scenario 1: I had just passed three lads, when I had a mechanical with my saddle, it dropped to the base and I had to cycle like that. So now we're all travelling at much the same speed for a while. I had enough on my plate than to look behind me but I've no reason to think that the lads were drafting. On the return theres a good hill and the legs are burned off me and I'd say my pace is all over the shop. One lad passes me and I sit 12-15m behind him, a good pace line. Then the two other boys pass me, with not 10m between them but enough of a gap to keep me happy. So I ease off and let the gap open to around 10 again before I give out to myself, tell myself to stop feeling sorry for myself and overtake all three of them.
That was fine in a race with 100 people and two waves. In a race at kilkee you would constantly be passed by ones, at the point where you decide "f**k this" someone else has passed you and my the rules you are meant to drop back and it repeats. The point at which you put the foot down and race back is drafting. You havent dropped back out of the exclusion zone because if you did another one would have started. And the race can in essence be a series of these "f**k this" moments when people are getting passed and then pick up their pace. 400 people doing this leads to drafting but each can explain it to themselves. Its a tough one I think

Scenario 2: After I had passed the three lads I said thats it, no one is going by me again. One guy tried and as soon as I saw him attempting I picked up my speed. So now he is caught out to my right, getting no draft but in the draft zone (and therefore drafting) and its my doing. He sits there for maybe 40 seconds before ha cant hold the pace and drops back.

Briando

Green&Red wrote: »

Heres two scenarios that came up on Sunday, in a much smaller race

Scenario 1: I had just passed three lads, when I had a mechanical with my saddle, it dropped to the base and I had to cycle like that. So now we're all travelling at much the same speed for a while. I had enough on my plate than to look behind me but I've no reason to think that the lads were drafting. On the return theres a good hill and the legs are burned off me and I'd say my pace is all over the shop. One lad passes me and I sit 12-15m behind him, a good pace line. Then the two other boys pass me, with not 10m between them but enough of a gap to keep me happy. So I ease off and let the gap open to around 10 again before I give out to myself, tell myself to stop feeling sorry for myself and overtake all three of them.
That was fine in a race with 100 people and two waves. In a race at kilkee you would constantly be passed by ones, at the point where you decide "f**k this" someone else has passed you and my the rules you are meant to drop back and it repeats. The point at which you put the foot down and race back is drafting. You havent dropped back out of the exclusion zone because if you did another one would have started. And the race can in essence be a series of these "f**k this" moments when people are getting passed and then pick up their pace. 400 people doing this leads to drafting but each can explain it to themselves. Its a tough one I think

Scenario 2: After I had passed the three lads I said thats it, no one is going by me again. One guy tried and as soon as I saw him attempting I picked up my speed. So now he is caught out to my right, getting no draft but in the draft zone (and therefore drafting) and its my doing. He sits there for maybe 40 seconds before ha cant hold the pace and drops back.

How about

Scenario 3: You get out on to the cycle and you coach is waiting up to pace you around the course giving you a bit of a tow.

Is that drafting or just some unsporting conduct?

fluboy

Not sure if this idea has been mentioned previously.



Do you think it is a good idea for TI to work with each race organiser in providing athletes equipped with the relatively cheap helmet or body cameras. I feel that many of those people who do draft are listening and watching out for the motorbike officials. When they hear them they simply drop back or overtake in order to get out of the draft zone.



TI could invest in three or four of these cameras and have a large panel of experienced triathletes who will wear the cameras and will go out on the bike leg and actively look for those cheating. The proof will be there for all to see. Good idea or bad?

Green&Red

Briando wrote: »

How about

Scenario 3: You get out on to the cycle and you coach is waiting up to pace you around the course giving you a bit of a tow.

Is that drafting or just some unsporting conduct?

Oh good, an intelligent response