The losing of Plumtree

UnitedWeStand

Does anyone else feel that in the absense of Plumtree the team is losing a massive amount. Not just in the sense that losing a coach in any position is obviously not the best thing to happen, but the fact that this season has been the one where our forwards have pretty much dominated most aspects of forwards play against nearly all the tier one sides. He seems to have really brought everything together be it the breakdowns, scrums or whatever, even if he isn't directly in charge of each individual aspect.

The fact the rolling maul has been a weapon in our arsenal that has yeilded 5 tries, directly or indirectly, for us in the past 6 games as well as giving us much needed territory at times is also a huge loss.

Before his announced departure last month I felt confident we could well make the semi's of the RWC and potentially further. Hoping the loss isn't as big as I'm making out in my mind.

Burcsd94

Impossible to know. I trust Joe to find an adequate replacement..

ScissorPaperRock

Yeah unless Joe can find someone of a similar quality it will be a big loss.

I think it's pretty lousy to walk out on a contract like that, tbh.

Liveforrugby

The man had his reasons. Watch the interview. Family first

UnitedWeStand

ScissorPaperRock wrote: »

Yeah unless Joe can find someone of a similar quality it will be a big loss.

I think it's pretty lousy to walk out on a contract like that, tbh.

He had family reasons, noones fault. Gone back to live with them in Wellington I believe and so is now working with the Hurricanes for the 2015 season.

Neil3030

Well question number 1, henceforth, when interviewing any SH candidates for important positions should be:

"Has your father met ALL of your kids"

On that point actually, maybe someone can help me out if I have the details arseways, but he lived in South Africa for how many years (6?). How is it that it's only when he moves to Ireland that the prolonged absence from his family in NZ becomes an issue? It's not like he was earning peanuts as a Super Rugby HC, what was he doing with his time off? And wouldn't the Sharks have played many games in New Zealand during this time? Could he have organised for his dad to meet his kid during one of these trips? OK, bringing a young boy on tour is not ideal, but they could have sorted something out, surely.

I don't mind him using us as a stepstone back to a top coaching job at all, but it would have been nice if he honoured the term of his contract.

CatFromHue

His reasons are fully understandable really and we won't be able to eliminate these problems until we've more Irish coaches in the Irish system.

Anyone working abroad from their home will obviously be very interested if a chance to do the same job at home arises. There's nothing malicious in it really.

umop.episdn

Deccie always thought his true calling was as forwards coach,
cometh the hour, cometh the man!

padser

Liveforrugby wrote: »

The man had his reasons. Watch the interview. Family first

Can someone link to the interview. It's well hidden wherever it is....

Edit, just found if. Published on June 1st on YouTube.

ScissorPaperRock

Liveforrugby wrote: »

The man had his reasons. Watch the interview. Family first

UnitedWeStand wrote: »

He had family reasons, noones fault. Gone back to live with them in Wellington I believe and so is now working with the Hurricanes for the 2015 season.

CatFromHue wrote: »

His reasons are fully understandable really and we won't be able to eliminate these problems until we've more Irish coaches in the Irish system.

Anyone working abroad from their home will obviously be very interested if a chance to do the same job at home arises. There's nothing malicious in it really.

Family reasons are obviously important, and I wouldn't want to keep someone in the role if they weren't happy. But unless his family circumstances changed since he took the role, then it's not really that reasonable to walk out on the contract.

padser

Liveforrugby wrote: »

The man had his reasons. Watch the interview. Family first

I'm sorry, I've just seen that interview. That's absolute bull****, just because someone says the word "family" doesn't make it OK.

His family are so important to him that he hasn't bothered going to see them in 8 years but suddenly despite no indication that anything changed he needs to move back there. Coincidently he happens to have been offered the head coaching job at a Super XV team as this change of heart occurs.

He took up this role last September and it was a 2 year role. He quit it 10 months later when a better job came around. That's the long and short of it.

He has done a great job with the Ireland pack but I'd struggle to wish him well in next role given his failure to go duo his commitments.

Edited last sentence as that was an unfair sentiment originally.

Buer

Pathetic sentiment.

You've no idea what circumstances are involved in the situation. Just because they work in the public eye doesn't mean they exist to keep us happy.

I hope he has great success and is happy in his new role. He has done a great job in his time here and will be remembered fondly.

He has nothing to prove as a head coach. There is no step up. He was head coach for years and delivered. Chris Boyd is going to be head coach anyway.

Burcsd94

padser wrote: »

I'm sorry, I've just seen that interview. That's absolute bull****, just because someone says the word "family" doesn't make it OK.

His family are so important to him that he hasn't bothered going to see them in 8 years but suddenly despite no indication that anything changed he needs to move back there. Coincidently he happens to have been offered the head coaching job at a Super XV team as this change of heart occurs.

He took up this role last September and it was a 2 year role. He quit it 10 months later when a better job came around. That's the long and short of it.

He has done a great job with the Ireland pack but I sincerely hope that he fails miserably in the step up to head coach role, that would be no less than he deserves.

jesus thats pathetic stuff

padser

Buer wrote: »

Pathetic sentiment.

You've no idea what circumstances are involved in the situation. Just because they work in the public eye doesn't mean they exist to keep us happy.

I hope he has great success and is happy in his new role. He has done a great job in his time here and will be remembered fondly.

He has nothing to prove as a head coach. There is no step up. He was head coach for years and delivered. Chris Boyd is going to be head coach anyway.

Edited last sentence as to be fair it was an unfair sentiment.

The general point however still stands IMO, and it's nothing to do with him bring in the public eye. If you give a two year commitment to do a job it's reasonable to expect you fulfil that commitment and not jump ship half way through.

There are of course circumstances that can change (family ones being the most obvious example) but just getting a different job certInly isn't one of them. I'd have expected more from him.

Neil3030

Buer wrote: »

You've no idea what circumstances are involved in the situation. Just because they work in the public eye doesn't mean they exist to keep us happy.

Straw man argument tbf. That said, it's useless moaning about it now; the decision has been made.

molloyjh

padser wrote: »

Edited last sentence as to be fair it was an unfair sentiment.

The general point however still stands IMO, and it's nothing to do with him bring in the public eye. If you give a two year commitment to do a job it's reasonable to expect you fulfil that commitment and not jump ship half way through.

There are of course circumstances that can change (family ones being the most obvious example) but just getting a different job certInly isn't one of them. I'd have expected more from him.

So if you were from Galway and took a job in Dublin, but then got offered a job back in Galway and ultimately that's where you wanted to be are you telling me you'd turn down the Galway job because you've committed to the Dublin one.

He's perfectly entitled to leave the Irish job if another post comes up that suits him better. To suggest any different is just daft.

Aidric

Neil3030 wrote: »

Well question number 1, henceforth, when interviewing any SH candidates for important positions should be:

"Has your father met ALL of your kids"

On that point actually, maybe someone can help me out if I have the details arseways, but he lived in South Africa for how many years (6?). How is it that it's only when he moves to Ireland that the prolonged absence from his family in NZ becomes an issue? It's not like he was earning peanuts as a Super Rugby HC, what was he doing with his time off? And wouldn't the Sharks have played many games in New Zealand during this time? Could he have organised for his dad to meet his kid during one of these trips? OK, bringing a young boy on tour is not ideal, but they could have sorted something out, surely.

I don't mind him using us as a stepstone back to a top coaching job at all, but it would have been nice if he honoured the term of his contract.

Good post and fully agree with the sentiment. I have no respect for a guy who walks out so early in his contract.

Have a strong feeling that the family line is being floated to deflect tougher questioning.

danthefan

Really disappointing he's gone but it's not really worth getting personal over. He had our set piece in fantastic shape and without it we probably wouldn't have won the 6N. Just hope we find someone who can keep going in that regard.

Buer

Neil3030 wrote: »

Straw man argument tbf.

Eh? Saying we don't know the details is straw man argument?!

molloyjh

Aidric wrote: »

Good post and fully agree with the sentiment. I have no respect for a guy who walks out so early in his contract.

Have a strong feeling that the family line is being floated to deflect tougher questioning.

Ah for Gods sake, people leave temporary employment early for other jobs all the time. Get over it.

He did a great job while here. I hope Joe can find a good replacement and I wish the guy all the best in future. He doesn't deserve some of the crap on here.

Neil3030

Buer wrote: »

Eh? Saying we don't know the details is straw man argument?!

No, the other part you conveniently omitted to mention.

ScissorPaperRock

molloyjh wrote: »

So if you were from Galway and took a job in Dublin, but then got offered a job back in Galway and ultimately that's where you wanted to be are you telling me you'd turn down the Galway job because you've committed to the Dublin one.

He's perfectly entitled to leave the Irish job if another post comes up that suits him better. To suggest any different is just daft.

Not all jobs are the same though. Taking on a coaching position with a national team and walking out on your contract a year out from the World Cup is somewhat different leaving a job manning a till at Spar.

I'm just disappointed that he made a commitment and decided he won't deliver on it.

Buer

Neil3030 wrote: »

No, the other part you conveniently omitted to mention.

I honestly don't know what you're talking about.

molloyjh

ScissorPaperRock wrote: »

Not all jobs are the same though. Taking on a coaching position with a national team and walking out on your contract a year out from the World Cup is somewhat different leaving a job manning a till at Spar.

I'm just disappointed that he made a commitment and decided he won't deliver on it.

Why is it different exactly? From the employees point of what is different? Sure it's disappointing, but questioning the guys motives like that isn't on. It's none of our business why he chose to leave. He had his reasons, he's entitled to do it, so let's just all move on.

molloyjh

Neil3030 wrote: »

No, the other part you conveniently omitted to mention.

How is not saying something a straw man argument?

ScissorPaperRock

molloyjh wrote: »

Why is it different exactly? From the employees point of what is different? Sure it's disappointing, but questioning the guys motives like that isn't on. It's none of our business why he chose to leave. He had his reasons, he's entitled to do it, so let's just all move on.

Because with certain careers there are certain values and ideals that you would expect an employee to have. E.g. loyalty.

I'm not questioning his motives. I'm just saying that if his family circumstances hadn't changed, and therefore he just changed his mind, or if it was because something better came along, I don't think it's really cool.

Hypothetically speaking, would you be ok with it if Joe was offered a coaching gig with the All Blacks right now and left Ireland at this point?

umop.episdn

I'm wondering what are the terms of his leaving, do his new employers have to pay the IRFU compensation? If not, why not? And does this leave the way open for others to leave their respective contracts early if they so wish?

Emperor1989

Plumtree was forced out of the Sharks last year after a cout d'etait by former Springbok Captain John Smit.

The decision to go to Europe I am sure was a purely financial one at the time to keep money in the door. The fact the position came up in NZ where his family live was too good to be turned down.

Going to be a big loss for Ireland either way. He had a impact no doubt.

molloyjh

ScissorPaperRock wrote: »

Because with certain careers there are certain values and ideals that you would expect an employee to have. E.g. loyalty.

I'm not questioning his motives. I'm just saying that if his family circumstances hadn't changed, and therefore he just changed his mind, or if it was because something better came along, I don't think it's really cool.

Hypothetically speaking, would you be ok with it if Joe was offered a coaching gig with the All Blacks right now and left Ireland at this point?

I'd be disappointed, sure, but I wouldn't hold it against him. Plumtree wasn't here for the Irish team. He wasn't here for the supporters. He was here because it was, at the time, the best position he had available to him. He got a better option presented to him so he took it.

All this talk of loyalty and commitment could be applied to any job anywhere in the world by people who were passionate about it. It means nothing in the end. The man has to do what he feels is best for him and his family. He is. They are far more important than some form of loyalty to another countries national side. All the best to him.

stephen_n

So it would be ok For Conor O'shea to walk out on his contract to take the Irish Job or ROG to come back to Munster, but if someone from another country does it, then it's bad form, the Irish are a very precious race indeed.

He did a great job and what the lads learned from him, will stand to us going forward, I'm sure Joe will find an adequate replacement to pick up from here. Good luck to Plumtree, hope he does well back home.

umop.episdn

stephen_n wrote: »

So it would be ok For Conor O'shea to walk out on his contract to take the Irish Job or ROG to come back to Munster, but if someone from another country does it, then it's bad form, the Irish are a very precious race indeed.

He did a great job and what the lads learned from him, will stand to us going forward, I'm sure Joe will find an adequate replacement to pick up from here. Good luck to Plumtree, hope he does well back home.

Well, no, that wouldnt be ok either, which is partially what I was alluding to in my earlier post.
Where does it stop, can Joe Schmidt leave in the morn if he gets a better offer at home?
What about players? Can Heaslip say he now wants to go to Racing because of a better offer? If IRFU contracts can be broken by coaching staff, can they not also be broken by players?
It's an interesting situation & one that needs watching as it sets a precedent imo

danthefan

Schmidt did actually leave Leinster for Ireland, he'd a year left on his Leinster contract. I'm going to guess there weren't many Munster/Ulster/Connacht fans unhappy about this at the time.

padser

molloyjh wrote: »

So if you were from Galway and took a job in Dublin, but then got offered a job back in Galway and ultimately that's where you wanted to be are you telling me you'd turn down the Galway job because you've committed to the Dublin one.

He's perfectly entitled to leave the Irish job if another post comes up that suits him better. To suggest any different is just daft.

People in senior positions (eg exec levels within companies) tend to give time commitments for roles. They do this to give the organisation appointing them stability and the ability to plan for the long term without having organisational upheaval. I'd considered this role to fall into that category and I'd expect he gave a commitment (although it's possible he didn't, for example it looks like Roy Keane has an agreement with O'Neill that he can resign to take up a manager job)

To answer your question, I've been in almost the exact position you describe, working in a foreign country and offered a role back in Dublin. The only problem was that I was mid way through a two yr commitment I'd given to do the job I was currently doing. For that reason I wasn't able to consider the new role. It's not that unusual a situation to be in.

I'm not suggesting that people never break these commitments they make (it generally involves a financial cost to do so, and I hope it did for Plumtree) but the majority keep to them.

It's bad form on Plumtrees part in my opinion.

stephen_n

umop.episdn wrote: »

Well, no, that wouldnt be ok either, which is partially what I was alluding to in my earlier post.
Where does it stop, can Joe Schmidt leave in the morn if he gets a better offer at home?
What about players? Can Heaslip say he now wants to go to Racing because of a better offer? If IRFU contracts can be broken by coaching staff, can they not also be broken by players?
It's an interesting situation & one that needs watching as it sets a precedent imo

If it was simply a better offer do you think the IRFU would have released him from the contract? People just having a go, when they know next to nothing about the circumstances. If you know that he left because he got a better offer, please post the information, so we can all make our opinions of him based on the facts.

umop.episdn

danthefan wrote: »

Schmidt did actually leave Leinster for Ireland, he'd a year left on his Leinster contract. I'm going to guess there weren't many Munster/Ulster/Connacht fans unhappy about this at the time.

Not really comparable though really, still working for the same union, look upon it as a promotion perhaps?

umop.episdn

stephen_n wrote: »

If it was simply a better offer do you think the IRFU would have released him from the contract? People just having a go, when they know next to nothing about the circumstances. If you know that he left because he got a better offer, please post the information, so we can all make our opinions of him based on the facts.

I have no idea, that's why I'm asking questions & not pretending I'm IDK
Do you have any info to suggest your first line is correct?

stephen_n

umop.episdn wrote: »

I have no idea, that's why I'm asking questions & not pretending I'm IDK
Do you have any info to suggest your first line is correct?

Yes the interview with Plumtree!

There has been no suggestion by any of the parties involved or the media, that it was anything other than what's suggested, but of course on boards that's no reason not to accuse and find someone guilty.

Why do you think he's lieing?

umop.episdn

stephen_n wrote: »

Yes the interview with Plumtree!

There has been no suggestion by any of the parties involved or the media, that it was anything other than what's suggested, but of course on boards that's no reason not to accuse and find someone guilty.

Why do you think he's lieing?

Where did I say he was lying?
I have accused him of nothing, perhaps you would do well to actually read what I wrote, not what you imagined I wrote

CatFromHue

Maybe Schmidt is just an ogre to work with

stephen_n

umop.episdn wrote: »

Where did I say he was lying?
I have accused him of nothing, perhaps you would do well to actually read what I wrote, not what you imagined I wrote

Sorry did you not say he was going because he got offered a better job?

umop.episdn

stephen_n wrote: »

Sorry did you not say he was going because he got offered a better job?

No

stephen_n

umop.episdn wrote: »

Well, no, that wouldnt be ok either, which is partially what I was alluding to in my earlier post.
Where does it stop, can Joe Schmidt leave in the morn if he gets a better offer at home?
What about players? Can Heaslip say he now wants to go to Racing because of a better offer? If IRFU contracts can be broken by coaching staff, can they not also be broken by players?
It's an interesting situation & one that needs watching as it sets a precedent imo

That pretty much infers you believe he's leaving because he got a better offer or why draw those comparisons and by the way, this isn't aimed at you, there are several posters inferring or straight out assuming the exact same thing.

umop.episdn

stephen_n wrote: »

That pretty much infers you believe he's leaving because he got a better offer or why draw those comparisons and by the way, this isn't aimed at you, there are several posters inferring or straight out assuming the exact same thing.

Totally irrelevant.
It doesn't matter whether he is leaving for family reasons, or if he has had a better offer.
The only certainty is that he is leaving within his contract & going elsewhere. Now the IRFU have allowed this, fine, but did they rip up his existing contract? Have the hurricanes paid some form of compensation?
There has been no clarification on this subject from the IRFU & there should be. If structures aren't put in place to protect IRFU employees within their contracts, then as I stated before, it could get messy further down the line

Buer

umop.episdn wrote: »

There has been no clarification on this subject from the IRFU & there should be.

Absolutely none of our business.

umop.episdn

Buer wrote: »

Absolutely none of our business.

I disagree completely.

Buer

umop.episdn wrote: »

I disagree completely.

Why are we entitled to know the financial and contractual details of an employee of a private organisation?

It's a personal matter and should remain so.

umop.episdn

Buer wrote: »

Why are we entitled to know the financial and contractual details of an employee of a private organisation?

It's a personal matter and should remain so.

Short memory indeed

stephen_n

umop.episdn wrote: »

Totally irrelevant.
It doesn't matter whether he is leaving for family reasons, or if he has had a better offer.
The only certainty is that he is leaving within his contract & going elsewhere. Now the IRFU have allowed this, fine, but did they rip up his existing contract? Have the hurricanes paid some form of compensation?
There has been no clarification on this subject from the IRFU & there should be. If structures aren't put in place to protect IRFU employees within their contracts, then as I stated before, it could get messy further down the line

Well then I give up! If you think family doesn't come before rugby, there's no point continuing this discussion.

umop.episdn

stephen_n wrote: »

Well then I give up! If you think family doesn't come before rugby, there's no point continuing this discussion.

Your post suggests that you have missed the point.....again...
If he's going home because his father hasn't seen his 7yo grandson ever, that's fine. No issue.
But , he signed a contract with the IRFU, he has left & signed a contract with another employer.
Is that much clear?
Now only 2 realistic scenarios are available to us.
He left with the blessing of the IRFU...which is good, but, it now means others can do so in the future.
Or, perhaps he decided he was leaving, sought a new post & presented it as a fait acomplis to the IRFU,
My only issue with this subject is what bearing it will have on future contracts of IRFU employees.
It gives people a get out clause & If there is not a financial penalty attatched, then the contract game changed completely. If you can't see that then, I'm out

Buer

umop.episdn wrote: »

Short memory indeed

Eh?

Buer

umop.episdn wrote: »

Your post suggests that you have missed the point.....again...
If he's going home because his father hasn't seen his 7yo grandson ever, that's fine. No issue.
But , he signed a contract with the IRFU, he has left & signed a contract with another employer.
Is that much clear?
Now only 2 realistic scenarios are available to us.
He left with the blessing of the IRFU...which is good, but, it now means others can do so in the future.
Or, perhaps he decided he was leaving, sought a new post & presented it as a fait acomplis to the IRFU,
My only issue with this subject is what bearing it will have on future contracts of IRFU employees.
It gives people a get out clause & If there is not a financial penalty attatched, then the contract game changed completely. If you can't see that then, I'm out

That's quite a leap.

Declan Kidney walked out on his Leinster contract a decade ago for understandable personal reasons. It hardly led to a glut of staff walking out since.