Is having children selfish?

fr336

I think it is quite obviously so. That doesn't mean I begrudge people doing it, that'd be quite a list of people I dislike!, but I do find it bewildering in a way. Especially the general consensus that you bring up a child for say 18 years then it's like "Yep job done you're on your own now". People try to make it sound so unselfish due to "all the aggro" but erm you brought it all on yourself? And you did that out of selfishness, to fill your life with meaning not because there was some child out there waiting for love and attention. I feel adoption would be more up my street.

Am I wrong? And if so why? Really keen to know why because if I am really wrong it'd be great and I wouldn't be against having my own kids (which, yes, I'd really like)

NomadicGray

fr336 wrote: »

Am I wrong? And if so why? Really keen to know why because if I am really wrong it'd be great and I wouldn't be against having my own kids (which, yes, I'd really like)

Maybe concentrate on forming your own opinions before forming your own children

fr336

NomadicGray wrote: »

Maybe concentrate on forming your own opinions before forming your own children

I've formed an opinion. I am asking others for theirs to maybe shape my opinions more. I am not ignorant like some.

dee_mc

Why does it have to come down to 'selfish or selfless'?
Do you examine your conscience for a selfish agenda before applying for a new job, or before starting a relationship?
Surely it comes down to either wanting to have children, or not...

Alf. A. Male

Abandonment at 18 is not the general consensus.

fr336

dee_mc wrote: »

Why does it have to come down to 'selfish or selfless'?
Do you examine your conscience for a selfish agenda before applying for a new job, or before starting a relationship?
Surely it comes down to either wanting to have children, or not...

lol wow. I actually think about what I do in life, it comes naturally.
I wouldn't start a relationship with someone I liked if I knew it wouldn't be equally as good from their side or in the middle of the relationship this hasn't.

MacBizzle

I would say no, and I'm having serious difficulty trying to understand your argument (no offence).

Are you arguing that having a child just because you'd like one is selfish?

Cee-Jay-Cee

If everyone adopted your ridiculous attitude there would be no population and no one for you to adopt.

You obviously haven't fully evolved in mankind terns and developed the yearn to have children of your own so I think any further conversation on this topic is wasted on you. Just my opinion.

kowloon

All the parents I know have had to make sacrifices, abandon a lot of time they could have devoted to themselves, pay through the nose to provide for their children and a whole host of other things to raise their children. The selfish bastards!

fr336

CJC999 wrote: »

If everyone adopted your ridiculous attitude there would be no population and no one for you to adopt.

You obviously haven't fully evolved in mankind terns and developed the yearn to have children of your own so I think any further conversation on this topic is wasted on you. Just my opinion.

I mentioned I did want children.

You're a plonker.

fr336

kowloon wrote: »

All the parents I know have had to make sacrifices, abandon a lot of time they could have devoted to themselves and a host of other things to raise their children. The selfish bastards!

But why? To fill their lives more generally and, in many cases, to not be an odd one out.

No Pants

fr336 wrote: »

Especially the general consensus that you bring up a child for say 18 years then it's like "Yep job done you're on your own now".

That's actually really uncommon.

Alf. A. Male

fr336 wrote: »

lol wow. I actually think about what I do in life, it comes naturally.
I wouldn't start a relationship with someone I liked if I knew it wouldn't be equally as good from their side or in the middle of the relationship this hasn't.

What?

MacBizzle

fr336 wrote: »

But why? To fill their lives more generally and, in many cases, to not be an odd one out.

No, because they want children. It's natural to want children, otherwise not a lot of people would have them.

Isn't procreation our basic purpose? To keep the species going? Have you forgotten that we still have instincts in the same way animals do?

This thread hurts my head.

Broxi_Bear_Eire

fr336 wrote: »

I think it is quite obviously so. That doesn't mean I begrudge people doing it, that'd be quite a list of people I dislike!, but I do find it bewildering in a way. Especially the general consensus that you bring up a child for say 18 years then it's like "Yep job done you're on your own now". People try to make it sound so unselfish due to "all the aggro" but erm you brought it all on yourself? And you did that out of selfishness, to fill your life with meaning not because there was some child out there waiting for love and attention. I feel adoption would be more up my street.

Am I wrong? And if so why? Really keen to know why because if I am really wrong it'd be great and I wouldn't be against having my own kids (which, yes, I'd really like)

Your wrong nothing selfish about having children. I really don't get this at 18 their on their own stuff. My oldest is well above that age and he is still not on his own. Though he lives in Glasgow now we keep in constant touch if he has a problem he knows he can talk to me and he does. When my wife and I had children we knew it was for life not the first few years.

fr336

MacBizzle wrote: »

No, because they want children. It's natural to want children, otherwise not a lot of people would have them.

Isn't procreation our basic purpose? To keep the species going?

And why is that? This is an awful world. I could experience no real hardship in my life, but my kids end up having a world war long after I'm gone. Do I have the right to make that decision now? What gives me the right to make that pain happen for someone?

PeteFalk78

fr336 wrote: »

I think it is quite obviously so.

Yes paying thousands upon thousands for childcare + other stuff, cleaning sh1tty nappies etc is really selfish. :rolleyes:

eviltwin

fr336 wrote: »

I think it is quite obviously so. That doesn't mean I begrudge people doing it, that'd be quite a list of people I dislike!, but I do find it bewildering in a way. Especially the general consensus that you bring up a child for say 18 years then it's like "Yep job done you're on your own now". People try to make it sound so unselfish due to "all the aggro" but erm you brought it all on yourself? And you did that out of selfishness, to fill your life with meaning not because there was some child out there waiting for love and attention. I feel adoption would be more up my street.

Am I wrong? And if so why? Really keen to know why because if I am really wrong it'd be great and I wouldn't be against having my own kids (which, yes, I'd really like)

You admit you want children yourself just that you would prefer to adopt one rather than have your own so are you really saying its selfish to have a biological child and that would be parents should adopt instead ie sort out the children who are here and need homes rather than add to the population?

fr336

PeteFalk78 wrote: »

Yes paying thousands upon thousands for childcare + other stuff, cleaning sh1tty nappies etc is really selfish. :rolleyes:

So tell me why people do it, don't give me the natural thing there are reasons behind it not just some urge.

No Pants

fr336 wrote: »

my kids end up having a world war long after I'm gone.

Get them used to the naughty step early then.

fr336

eviltwin wrote: »

You admit you want children yourself just that you would prefer to adopt one rather than have your own so are you really saying its selfish to have a biological child and that would be parents should adopt instead ie sort out the children who are here and need homes rather than add to the population?

Yes.

fr336

No Pants wrote: »

Get them used to the naughty step early then.

You could be the next Graham Linehan.

Synyster Shadow

I was told I'd never have kids I now have a son and daughter.. I always said I'd do adoption and that ain't changed just because I gave birth..

I don't think it selfish it's part of life and if a woman wants to truly experience life for themselves then it's there right to choose. Don't see how that's selfish

MacBizzle

fr336 wrote: »

So tell me why people do it, don't give me the natural thing there are reasons behind it not just some urge.

"Give me a reason but not the reason I don't want to hear!!"

No Pants

fr336 wrote: »

This is an awful world. I could experience no real hardship in my life, but my kids end up having a world war long after I'm gone.

Don't worry OP. Adopted kids dying in wars is no biggie.

Vinz Mesrine

I have 2 kids and wouldn't change it for anything. People ask if I miss going out at weekends, why the hell would I miss paying for overpriced pisswater in some form of cattle mart?

Mr_Red

OP, By your logic you regret being born

fr336

MacBizzle wrote: »

"Give me a reason but not the reason I don't want to hear!!"

People have urges for all sorts of things, it's just this is the most "natural" and common one ever known.

Funny how defensive people are, caring more about some random on the internet's opinions than simply sticking by their actions.

eviltwin

fr336 wrote: »

Yes.

Well that is different then, your op reads like having a child at all is a selfish act. I understand where you are coming from but its not that easy to adopt, its almost impossible in fact and the criteria mean most people wouldn't qualify so they have no choice but to have their own if they want one.

No Pants

fr336 wrote: »

Funny how defensive people are, caring more about some random on the internet's opinions than simply sticking by their actions.

Don't flatter yourself. :rolleyes:

fr336

Mr_Red wrote: »

OP, By your logic you regret being born

You have no logic.

I have no regrets at all and love life and the possibilities. People who see things in simple terms often don't.

Where is the logic in saying that someone who doesn't want to make a bet on any number of things that could happen to their offspring after they make the decision to bring them into the world regrets their own lives? My life is pretty fine - no physical pain, very very little mental pain beyond my own finding myself which most people have and all in all it's a great life and even better future. If I knew their life would turn out like mine is and hopefully will be I'd be far more for it.

pickarooney

Is taking a dump selfish? What kind of moron even comes up with such a question?

Awkward Badger

I think so OP. I personally couldn't justify having a child because I want one. I mean we're not talking about getting a kitten, its a human being. Its bringing another conscious being into existence because they want it.

The argument that reproduction is our purpose is completely invalid. We have the ability to do lots of things because its what evolution has made us. But there is no purpose or meaning to it. We are no more meant to have babies than we are meant to stick marbles up our arses. Being able to do it doesn't mean we are meant to do it or its our purpose in life. Its simply a choice like so many other things.

Imo it seems both selfish and cruel to drag a being into existence to satisfy some primitive urge or want. But that's just me and it doesn't mean I think people who do it are selfish and cruel, just that the act seems that way to me. Its a strange world.

fr336

Synyster Shadow wrote: »

I was told I'd never have kids I now have a son and daughter.. I always said I'd do adoption and that ain't changed just because I gave birth..

I don't think it selfish it's part of life and if a woman wants to truly experience life for themselves then it's there right to choose. Don't see how that's selfish

Where did I advocate a policy of not letting people have children? I didn't. I didn't even mention a certain Chinese policy. And never would.

Paulzx

fr336 wrote: »

And why is that? This is an awful world. I could experience no real hardship in my life, but my kids end up having a world war long after I'm gone. Do I have the right to make that decision now? What gives me the right to make that pain happen for someone?

You're obviously a Back to the Future fan:D

eviltwin

Isn't it kind of fundamental that you should want your children though, better than the alternative of kids being born into families who don't want them?

Paulzx

pickarooney wrote: »

Is taking a dump selfish?

Only if you do it in someone elses teapot

fr336

pickarooney wrote: »

Is taking a dump selfish? What kind of moron even comes up with such a question?

I dunno, Philosophy students at Oxbridge at some point maybe. But not a mod on Boards.ie, no!

Zen65

fr336 wrote: »

But why? To fill their lives more generally and, in many cases, to not be an odd one out.

That is frankly a highly subjective and biased opinion of other people's motivation. Did you conduct a survey to establish that this is why many people want to have kids? It comes across as ill-considered.

Having kids is a primitive desire, originating from the lower order brain functions. Every species from the lowest form of virus up to humans is driven by that urge. The motivation requires no logical assessment because in the absence of children the species would die out, which is an illogical choice. The only time when motivation should be questioned is if the children will necessarily be born into an adverse situation which they would not be able to escape e.g. captivity, genetic disorder, extreme poverty, war etc.

If an individual chooses not to have children this is simply exercising a legitimate option. Society does not need every woman to give birth, nor does it need every child to live until old age. In fact it is likely that we prosper more as a society if these outcomes are not fulfilled for everyone.

seamus

You can argue that adopting a child is selfish because you only do it to feel good about yourself.

Discuss.

fr336

eviltwin wrote: »

Isn't it kind of fundamental that you should want your children though, better than the alternative of kids being born into families who don't want them?

I don't get this at all, what does me not having children have to do with others having children? Are they going to give birth to mine instead?

bb1234567

Thought this was going to be about damage you do to the environment by having children.
Other than that, I dont really see how having children is in any way selfish , youre the one paying for them

MacBizzle

seamus wrote: »

You can argue that adopting a child is selfish because you only do it to feel good about yourself.

Discuss.

Very good point

Lemonandice20

fr336 wrote: »

I think it is quite obviously so. That doesn't mean I begrudge people doing it, that'd be quite a list of people I dislike!, but I do find it bewildering in a way. Especially the general consensus that you bring up a child for say 18 years then it's like "Yep job done you're on your own now". People try to make it sound so unselfish due to "all the aggro" but erm you brought it all on yourself? And you did that out of selfishness, to fill your life with meaning not because there was some child out there waiting for love and attention. I feel adoption would be more up my street.

Am I wrong? And if so why? Really keen to know why because if I am really wrong it'd be great and I wouldn't be against having my own kids (which, yes, I'd really like)

Well everything everyone does is ultimately selfish but that doesn't mean it's wrong or bad for society.

fr336

seamus wrote: »

You can argue that adopting a child is selfish because you only do it to feel good about yourself.

Discuss.

I'll discuss.

I'd only do it because it was a good thing to do as well as wanting children, rather than it simply making me all good and wow what an awesome guy I am!

If I couldn't come to such a conclusion, I wouldn't have any children at all. This is a big world with enough people who can interest me already - I certainly wouldn't get bored with my career and associated interests.

eviltwin

fr336 wrote: »

I don't get this at all, what does me not having children have to do with others having children? Are they going to give birth to mine instead?

I was referring to Pugsly post, should have quoted him. Yes most parents have children because they want them, I know that was my motivation but what other motivation should there be to have a child? Should I do it because its my duty to provide a tax payer? Shouldn't I want a child just for the love and care I can give it? There is nothing wrong with having a child just as their is nothing wrong with not wanting to have a child.

Synyster Shadow

fr336 wrote: »

Where did I advocate a policy of not letting people have children? I didn't. I didn't even mention a certain Chinese policy. And never would.

I never said you did.. Did I? I just gave an opinion

CL7

We have a biological drive to procreate. Most of us act on it eventually, some decide not to (are programmed not to). 'Selfish' or 'unselfish' are just subjective value judgments that fool us into believing we actually have a choice in the matter. Tis all bollocks really.

fr336

CL7 wrote: »

We have a biological drive to procreate. Most of us act on it eventually, some decide not to (are programmed not to). 'Selfish' or 'unselfish' are just subjective value judgments that fool us into believing we actually have a choice in the matter. Tis all bollocks really.

By what or whom?

seamus

fr336 wrote: »

I'd only do it because it was a good thing to do as well as wanting children, rather than it simply making me all good and wow what an awesome guy I am!

If I couldn't come to such a conclusion, I wouldn't have any children at all. This is a big world with enough people who can interest me already - I certainly wouldn't get bored with my career and associated interests.

Well that's exactly my point. If you didn't want to do it, then you won't.
The only reason you'd do it is because you want to. And you want to do it because it makes you feel good.

It boils down to that old philosophical discussion that there's no unselfish deed. Everything we do reflects a desire in ourselves and ultimately everything we consciously do is selfish because if we didn't have a motivation to do it, we wouldn't do it. Even stuff we hate doing, we ultimately do because there's a "but". "I hate this, but..."

Having children is borne out of a selfish desire, of course it is. But adoption is likewise borne out of a selfish desire not too far removed from it.

Zen65

Pugsly wrote: »

Imo it seems both selfish and cruel to drag a being into existence to satisfy some primitive urge or want.

Consider the option of nobody having children.

The species would decline until we died out, with the last remaining generations living lonely lives without the benefit of doctors, nurses, trades-people, technology providers etc. When the population of the human species is aged over 40 on average, with nobody alive under the age of 20, then the number of doctors available for that median at age 60 will be minuscule. Disease will proliferate, disability will go unaided, and the final years/decades towards death will be most unpleasant.

Isn't that just as cruel and selfish an outcome as you might fear for the worst option for our children and grandchildren?

Having children is not the primary purpose for an individual, but it is the primary purpose of a society.