Think differently? Think again!

Copyerselveson

old hippy wrote: »

What qualifies anyone to comment on the negative aspects of any country?



I see. Speak out of turn, dissent and you're sent packing... sounds familiar....







The irony

Absolutely. Someone says something a lot of Irish people don't like, and our reaction is to silence them, ridicule them and send them into exile.

c_man

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

What I find really startling to think about is that, if Ireland's population had grown at the same rate as Great Britain's since about 1800, there'd be about 30 million people living on this island!

All that building work... *drool*

bb1234567

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

What I find really startling to think about is that, if Ireland's population had grown at the same rate as Great Britain's since about 1800, there'd be about 30 million people living on this island!

I wonder what the biggest population ireland could feasibly support is
Id say about 8 million

kneemos

bb1234567 wrote: »

I wonder what the biggest population ireland could feasibly support is
Id say about 8 million

Is there a limit?

ToddyDoody

Catholic harmony - Ireland. Protestant newspaper - The Guardian. Next.

dxhound2005

Copyerselveson wrote: »

Absolutely. Someone says something a lot of Irish people don't like, and our reaction is to silence them, ridicule them and send them into exile.

Lots of Irish people like what she said. But they do not like it when other people question their point of view. It results in them making up stuff like she was sent into exile.

RDM_83 again

Terrible terrible article, The Online version of of the Gaurniad at least seems to be trying to challenge the Daily Mail as the worlds foremost producer of click-bait (though coming from the Right-On perspective).
These articles have to be viewed through the perspective of the ROI being held up as an example to the UK during the Celtic Tiger era, as some one who reads the Guardian quiet a lot over the last few years they do enjoy a good bit of Ireland bashing when the opportunity arises since the countries fall from international grace.

bb1234567

kneemos wrote: »

Is there a limit?

I would imagine there is yeah

Copyerselveson

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Terrible terrible article, The Online version of of the Gaurniad at least seems to be trying to challenge the Daily Mail as the worlds foremost producer of click-bait (though coming from the Right-On perspective).
These articles have to be viewed through the perspective of the ROI being held up as an example to the UK during the Celtic Tiger era, as some one who reads the Guardian quiet a lot over the last few years they do enjoy a good bit of Ireland bashing when the opportunity arises since the countries fall from international grace.

That explains it all of course. It's the Brits bashing the plucky poor old Irish. Always is.

(apart from the fact that the author of the article is Irish and Roy Greenslade is one of the most pro-Irish and knowledgeable commentators about Ireland in the British media)

The problem is when someone holds up a mirror to our faces, sometimes what we see back isn't all that pretty. There has long been a culture of groupthink in Ireland and who hasn't heard the expression "whose yer man?" at any time. Ireland remains a stiflingly conformist society. The long story of emigration from our country isn't simply an economic one, many of those who can't or won't conform simply leave.

Shakespeare's Sister

Self reflection/constructive self criticism at a national level is a good thing, an important thing; we have seen the results of this not being done/allowed - never good.
But this article is not self reflection/constructive self criticism - it is whingeing. It is bitching about everyone else who's Irish but the author somehow exempting herself... despite also being Irish. It is blamey. It is judgemental. It is arrogant.
It's the same as the "Irish people are sheeple" troglodytery of the reader comments to TheJournal.ie/Independent.ie/Facebook groups (and that is TOTAL groupthink) - just articulated better.

seamus wrote: »

What a bizarrely disjointed article.

She's right on one point - that Ireland, taking the nation as a whole, isn't as cosmopolitan as we like to think, and there's a huge difference from place to place in regards to social attitudes to women. But that's a symptom of our bizarre population spread (a quarter of the country live basically in one county) and the fact that we're new to the multi-cultural thing. But we're catching up quickly.

What makes me laugh is this:
A bad place to be a woman or an immigrant? This, in a British paper? Ireland ranked number 6 in a recent study on the gender gap. As in, the sixth best place in the world to be a woman. The UK ranked at number 18.
Immigration? How many anti-everyone-who's-not-white-and-Irish parties have we among our elected officials? Oh yeah. Here's a nice article on that topic. In 2007, a small Irish town elected a Nigerian-born mayor, who'd only been in the country 7 years. Yeah, really intolerant of immigrant we are.

Assuming Ms O'Shea is Irish, she has somewhat become a parody of her own article - an Irish person with a "very small and immature sense of self". To quote herself, she's "a sort of weak-minded teenager", effectively, "OMG Ireland is sooooo crap, like everywhere else is so much better, why are Irish people so uncool". Which, quite amusingly appears to the self-deprecating Irish group-think she laments so much.

Spot-on.

And I am a woman born and raised in Ireland - and I suspect a much older woman than Sinead. News to me that Ireland is a bad place to be a woman.
There was a time when Ireland wasn't a good place for a lot of women (although plenty of that was due to fellow women) but I think they'd find it laughable for someone to say things are as bad today.
Homophobia and racism - they exist in Ireland for sure. Look at these pages alone. But endemic in society? Perhaps pockets of Ireland, but I think it's unfair to say Ireland is a racist or homophobic society.

Some people however like looking for/manufacturing persecution. Maybe she grew up in a backwater but that doesn't represent all Irish people.

It does seem to be the case too that po-faced right-on people who are on a permanent crusade to find offence, have no issue with blanket slatings of people of their own nationality (not constructive criticism - blanket slatings; it should be easy to tell the difference) oblivious to the irony. Possibly because they think anything other than hostility towards their own country is what's required in order to look non nationalistic. This doesn't just apply to Irish people.
"Self flagellating", "self loathing" are spot-on phrases. "Self deprecating" - no; that's actually laudable and endearing.

Maximus Alexander

bb1234567 wrote: »

I wonder what the biggest population ireland could feasibly support is
Id say about 8 million

Dunno, but Great Britain is less than 3 times the size of Ireland and has a population of > 60 million.

krudler

seamus wrote: »

Indeed. I think what's probably oddest about Ireland is the way we've spread. We have a very small population for the size of our landmass, and outside of Dublin we tend to spread ourselves out quite widely. Other developed countries tend to have a large capital city (or two), and a handful of other large cities. Ireland by comparison (just taking the Republic) has the behemoth of Dublin and that's about it for major urban areas. Cork is a city, but dwarfed by Dublin. And beyond that the largest urban areas are comparatively tiny.

*snigger*

donegal__road

ToddyDoody wrote: »

Catholic harmony - Ireland. Protestant newspaper - The Guardian. Next.

The PIIGS countries have a thing in common... confession and the so called examination of conscience. Portugal, Italy, Ireland and Spain are all catholic countries.. and Greece is Orthodox. The Orthodox church also has confession just like the Catholic church.

This would suggest that a person could lie, cheat and steal for all their worth, and have these sins absolved at confession, rinse and repeat.

Where on the other hand, many Protestant, Anglican faiths believe in salvation through hard work.


*sorry if this seems a little off the wall, few venos on board.

sock puppet

Copyerselveson wrote: »

That explains it all of course. It's the Brits bashing the plucky poor old Irish. Always is.

(apart from the fact that the author of the article is Irish and Roy Greenslade is one of the most pro-Irish and knowledgeable commentators about Ireland in the British media)

The problem is when someone holds up a mirror to our faces, sometimes what we see back isn't all that pretty. There has long been a culture of groupthink in Ireland and who hasn't heard the expression "whose yer man?" at any time. Ireland remains a stiflingly conformist society. The long story of emigration from our country isn't simply an economic one, many of those who can't or won't conform simply leave.

You're absolutely right. Anyone who disagrees with the blogger is engaging in groupthink.

crockholm

donegal__road wrote: »

The PIIGS countries have a thing in common... confession and the so called examination of conscience. Portugal, Italy, Ireland and Spain are all catholic countries.. and Greece is Orthodox. The Orthodox church also has confession just like the Catholic church.

This would suggest that a person could lie, cheat and steal for all their worth, and have these sins absolved at confession, rinse and repeat.

Where on the other hand, many Protestant, Anglican faiths believe in salvation through hard work.


*sorry if this seems a little off the wall, few venos on board.

Have you been Reading "Max Weber for dummies" with that vino?:P;)

There really are so many things wrong with that school of thought.

Maphisto

Danger Will Robinson - Welcome to the Politics Cafe

strobe

Maybe its a generational thing, or maybe a city versus more rural thing, I dunno, but I seemed to have slipped through the net of this 'think differently, think again' Ireland my entire life. Since I was a kid, right through to the age of 30 now, the most prevalent attitude I've experienced from Irish people towards myself and others has been 'if you're sound I like you, if you're not I don't' and its seems to apply to women, immigrants, all races, religions, creeds, sexualities, political persuasions and hair styles. I've come across people that weren't like that of course but they were very much the exception rather than the norm.

Have I lived my life in some weird and rare micro-climate of Irish attitude? Am I the only one here with this kind of experience of growing up and living in this country? Have I been just that abnormally lucky?

Seaneh

donegal__road wrote: »

The PIIGS countries have a thing in common... confession and the so called examination of conscience. Portugal, Italy, Ireland and Spain are all catholic countries.. and Greece is Orthodox. The Orthodox church also has confession just like the Catholic church.

This would suggest that a person could lie, cheat and steal for all their worth, and have these sins absolved at confession, rinse and repeat.

Where on the other hand, many Protestant, Anglican faiths believe in salvation through hard work.


*sorry if this seems a little off the wall, few venos on board.

Absolute tosh, on both national traits and Christian doctrine. Neither Catholics nor Protestants nor coptics nor Assyrian nor Evangelicals believe in salvation through hard work, Christianity, regardless of denomination believes in salvation through faith alone and all place importance on confession.

donegal__road

Seaneh wrote: »

Absolute tosh, on both national traits and Christian doctrine. Neither Catholics nor Protestants nor coptics nor Assyrian nor Evangelicals believe in salvation through hard work, Christianity, regardless of denomination believes in salvation through faith alone and all place importance on confession.

I did mention that I was drinking... and this is AH.. so lighten up m8

donegal__road

crockholm wrote: »

Have you been Reading "Max Weber for dummies" with that vino?:P;)

There really are so many things wrong with that school of thought.

spot on crockholm.

From the Max Weber book, the Protestant Work Ethic...

The Protestant work ethic (or the Puritan work ethic) is a concept in theology, sociology, economics and history which emphasizes hard work, frugality and diligence as a constant display of a person's salvation in the Christian faith, in contrast to the focus upon religious attendance, confession, and ceremonial sacrament in the Catholic tradition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic

crockholm

donegal__road wrote: »

spot on crockholm.

From the Max Weber book, the Protestant Work Ethic...



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic

Indeed, just don't tell the Belgians,Luxemburgers,French,Austrians,Bavarians,Southern Dutch and the other solvent Nations,provinces and areas with Catholic majorities that they are indeed catholic, or else they will all spend their Life savings on scratch cards !
:cool:

conorhal

strobe wrote: »

Maybe its a generational thing, or maybe a city versus more rural thing, I dunno, but I seemed to have slipped through the net of this 'think differently, think again' Ireland my entire life. Since I was a kid, right through to the age of 30 now, the most prevalent attitude I've experienced from Irish people towards myself and others has been 'if you're sound I like you, if you're not I don't' and its seems to apply to women, immigrants, all races, religions, creeds, sexualities, political persuasions and hair styles. I've come across people that weren't like that of course but they were very much the exception rather than the norm.

Have I lived my life in some weird and rare micro-climate of Irish attitude? Am I the only one here with this kind of experience of growing up and living in this country? Have I been just that abnormally lucky?

No, I'd say you're much like everybody else to be honest.
The 'groupthink' these days is largely liberal, so it's good groupthink, as opposed to that nasty horrible bad groupthink of the past.
Most groupthink in this country is largey created and encouraged by the media, be it creating a 'buy now before it's too late' consensus on property, or it's obsessive focus on past wrongs. The collective self-loathing the media encourages is one of the worst aspects of this nation.

Barely There

Barely There wrote: »

I agree with this fully.

What should we do instead?

Well they say greater diversity in groups means a less chance of group think occurring so that could be one suggestion

conorhal

Magaggie wrote: »

Self reflection/constructive self criticism at a national level is a good thing, an important thing; we have seen the results of this not being done/allowed - never good.
But this article is not self reflection/constructive self criticism - it is whingeing. It is bitching about everyone else who's Irish but the author somehow exempting herself... despite also being Irish. It is blamey. It is judgemental. It is arrogant.
It's the same as the "Irish people are sheeple" troglodytery of the reader comments to TheJournal.ie/Independent.ie/Facebook groups (and that is TOTAL groupthink) - just articulated better.

And I am a woman born and raised in Ireland - and I suspect a much older woman than Sinead. News to me that Ireland is a bad place to be a woman.
There was a time when Ireland wasn't a good place for a lot of women (although plenty of that was due to fellow women) but I think they'd find it laughable for someone to say things are as bad today.
Homophobia and racism - they exist in Ireland for sure. Look at these pages alone. But endemic in society? Perhaps pockets of Ireland, but I think it's unfair to say Ireland is a racist or homophobic society.

Some people however like looking for/manufacturing persecution. Maybe she grew up in a backwater but that doesn't represent all Irish people.

It does seem to be the case too that po-faced right-on people who are on a permanent crusade to find offence, have no issue with blanket slatings of people of their own nationality (not constructive criticism - blanket slatings; it should be easy to tell the difference) oblivious to the irony. Possibly because they think anything other than hostility towards their own country is what's required in order to look non nationalistic. This doesn't just apply to Irish people.
"Self flagellating", "self loathing" are spot-on phrases. "Self deprecating" - no; that's actually laudable and endearing.

Well said. The Guardian is the liberals cilice.

RDM_83 again

Copyerselveson wrote: »

That explains it all of course. It's the Brits bashing the plucky poor old Irish. Always is.

(apart from the fact that the author of the article is Irish and Roy Greenslade is one of the most pro-Irish and knowledgeable commentators about Ireland in the British media)

Roy Greenslade is simply giving her a platform its not his article. If you actually read my post you would see I was talking about the Guardian specifically since the Crash, the Telegraph which would be considered pretty negative towards Ireland is more balanced these days.

Copyerselveson wrote: »

The problem is when someone holds up a mirror to our faces, sometimes what we see back isn't all that pretty. There has long been a culture of groupthink in Ireland and who hasn't heard the expression "whose yer man?" at any time. Ireland remains a stiflingly conformist society. The long story of emigration from our country isn't simply an economic one, many of those who can't or won't conform simply leave.

And conversely Ireland both rural and urban is chock full of 'local characters' and eccentrics, so much so its actually another stereotype. What there is and its often dismissed as begrudgery is a lack of tolerance for pretension.

She makes a few cliche points that other better writers have developed and analysed and mixes it with a healthy dose of self loathing here is some choice quotes.

Ireland remains a society with a deeply small sense of self. It is a sort of weak-minded teenager desperate to keep up with the status quo. It's not what's said. It's who has said it.

Difference is confusing and thus threatening

Female sexuality is still feared. "Nice girls" don't enjoy sex.

Poverty continues to be dehumanised. It is commonplace for middle class people to disdain travellers and to describe working class people as "knackers.

She is writing this in the UK, Ireland does have deep flaws in its treatment of the vulnerable but the treatment of class and poverty is miles better than the UK, take a look at the two social welfare systems of a nice example in the ROI you get a livable amount of money and plenty of opportunities for retraining, in the UK its a pittance even with their lower living costs and far less opportunity for training, until recently the UK equivalent of Jobsbridge was actually involuntary which says it all.
I have never ever heard anybody say working class people are knackers, people judge behavior that is anti-social and scumbagy as the mark of knackers not the fact they are in a blue-collar job.

The article overall reads that she must have spent her life in Ireland in a 1980's small midlands town before directly transitioning to the London Meeja scene

Shakespeare's Sister

sock puppet wrote: »

You're absolutely right. Anyone who disagrees with the blogger is engaging in groupthink.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QereR0CViMY

strobe wrote: »

Maybe its a generational thing, or maybe a city versus more rural thing

I'd say very much so. I can imagine someone being pissed off about attitudes growing up in a rural village, but to ascribe this to the entire population of Ireland is just as smallminded, yet that kind of smallmindedness is ok, or something.

suicide_circus

The hairshirt is making a comeback!

crockholm

Magaggie wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QereR0CViMY

I'd say very much so. I can imagine someone being pissed off about attitudes growing up in a rural village, but to ascribe this to the entire population of Ireland is just as smallminded, yet that kind of smallmindedness is ok, or something.

And yet you managed to take her condescending veiw of Ireland and use it on rural Ireland yourself.Bravo.

Shakespeare's Sister

old hippy wrote: »

I see. Speak out of turn, dissent and you're sent packing... sounds familiar....

Nobody has been "sent packing". Their point was: if you think Ireland is a terrible oppressive place for women and people who are different, spend time in a country where that's *actually* the case, in order to develop a bit of perspective.

Lots of Ireland *isn't* great for people who are a bit different, but to pretend all of it is that bad, is just another form of prejudice.

Shakespeare's Sister

crockholm wrote: »

And yet you managed to take her condescending veiw of Ireland and use it on rural Ireland yourself.Bravo.

Hardly a leap to conclude parts of rural Ireland are not open to difference? It's not meant as an insult.