Council Housing Lists dissolved... No chance of council house. Mod Note in 1st post

dharma200

"In a statement, Richard Boyd Barrett TD, People Before Profit Alliance, has expressed outrage that with the passing of the Housing Miscellaneous Bill 2013 through the Dáil tonight, the government will begin the process of removing 96,000 families across the country from council housing lists ensuring they will never get a council house, despite being on housing waiting lists for up to 15 years."

Can anyone explain this, does this mean there will not be a council list, those who have been waiting in hope for years are now not on a list and will never get housing?? Anyone any info on this.. cheers

http://richardboydbarrett.ie/2014/06/17/passing-of-housing-bill-tonight-will-be-a-cruel-blow-to-96000-housing-applicants-as-housing-list-dissolved-and-social-housing-provision-privatised/


Ok, to avoid the political or media spin on this and to avoid the thread descending into chaos below are the links to the legislation mentioned in the OP.

Legislation: http://www.environ.ie/en/Legislation...d,37985,en.pdf

Explanatory Memo: http://www.environ.ie/en/Legislation...d,37986,en.pdf

Please feel free to discuss the legislation, the new Housing Assistance Scheme, updates to how the existing laws are being amended etc.
Do not have this descend into an RA/Council House/DSP recipient bashing thread - I will issue infractions/bans if you ignore this warning.

Iseedeadpixels

From what I can see its like this.

Person 1 is using rent allowance and has a house this way, so they have been taken off the Council housing list.

Person 2 lives at home may have certain reasons why they cant afford a house, they are on the council housing list.

It will reduce the housing list but there will be outrage as people getting rent allowance could find themselves without a house if a LL decides they want them gone.

dharma200

so all those on rent allowance are off the list? For real.... what idiot thought that up?

Mr.McLovin

so sleep rough to get a council house?

L1011

I'd suggest trying to find a more rational source for that assertion before assuming its true.

No Pants

If you've been on a waiting list for 15 years, how is it that you still need a house? Where have you been for those 15 years?

Iseedeadpixels

No Pants wrote: »

If you've been on a waiting list for 15 years, how is it that you still need a house? Where have you been for those 15 years?

Rent allowance is my guess.

No Pants

Iseedeadpixels wrote: »

Rent allowance is my guess.

But in a house, yes?

Dr Turk Turkelton

Mr.McLovin wrote: »

so sleep rough to get a council house?

Either that or else get a mortgage and buy a house?

Iseedeadpixels

No Pants wrote: »

But in a house, yes?

Obviously.....

Thats not the point theres more security and long term planning in a council house.

No Pants

Iseedeadpixels wrote: »

Obviously.....

Thats not the point theres more security and long term planning in a council house.

Still not seeing the issue. They have a house and someone else is paying for it.

Iseedeadpixels

No Pants wrote: »

Still not seeing the issue. They have a house and someone else is paying for it.

You know you pay rent to the council? You also have a buyout option in the future. So you're happy for them to get free housing and not try better themselves? You also realise a LL can if he wants not renew a lease and they have to move.

Security and long term planning out the window.......oh yeh they shouldnt complain.

carpejugulum

dharma200 wrote: »

Can anyone explain this, does this mean there will not be a council list, those who have been waiting in hope for years are now not on a list and will never get housing??

They are always welcome to get a job and pay for their own housing. You know, like people who pay taxes to fund welfare in the first place.

Iseedeadpixels

carpejugulum wrote: »

They are always welcome to get a job and pay for their own housing. You know, like people who pay taxes to fund welfare in the first place.

What about a Mother with 3 kids who cant work or someone with a disability?

quadrifoglio verde

Iseedeadpixels wrote: »

You know you pay rent to the council? You also have a buyout option in the future. So you're happy for them to get free housing and not try better themselves? You also realise a LL can if he wants not renew a lease and they have to move.

Security and long term planning out the window.......oh yeh they shouldnt complain.

You pay feck all rent to the council compared to the market rate.

The first thing they should do with council housing is remove the buyout option.....so much council housing has been purchased meaning more reliance on RA and private landlords.

Iseedeadpixels

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

You pay feck all rent to the council compared to the market rate.

The first thing they should do with council housing is remove the buyout option.....so much council housing has been purchased meaning more reliance on RA and private landlords.

So instead of paying something you would have them pay nothing?

No Pants

Iseedeadpixels wrote: »

What about a Mother with 3 kids who cant work or someone with a disability?

After fifteen years her kids will be at least doing their Junior Cert. Maybe even their Leaving Cert. Are you telling me that in all that time, the mother cannot work or figure out how to look after herself and her family?

Disabled people can work too you know. Plenty do.

Iseedeadpixels

No Pants wrote: »

After fifteen years her kids will be at least doing their Junior Cert. Maybe even their Leaving Cert. Are you telling me that in all that time, the mother cannot work or figure out how to look after herself and her family?

15 years of unemployment are you telling me shes gonna walk into a job that pays well enough to afford rent/mortgage? At least let her pay the council whatever she can, get a ok job and buy the house in the future. What about someone with a bad disability who cant work should they stay on rent allowance? Its not just single Mothers.

dharma200

get a mortgage they said... get a mortgage.... lol..........

No Pants

Iseedeadpixels wrote: »

So instead of paying something you would have them pay nothing?

No. Rent allowance entitlements should also trend downwards over time and disappear entirely.

Arthur Beesley

Dr Turk Turkelton wrote: »

Either that or else get a mortgage and buy a house?

Or rent and pay your own way?

Iseedeadpixels

No Pants wrote: »

No. Rent allowance entitlements should also trend downwards over time and disappear entirely.

Oh ok so a homeless crisis is better?

Bongalongherb

This seems a bit strange, I only heard about this an hour ago myself. So does this mean every single person on the housing waiting list will be just told to feck-off ?

MouseTail

dharma200 wrote: »

"In a statement, Richard Boyd Barrett TD, People Before Profit Alliance, has expressed outrage that with the passing of the Housing Miscellaneous Bill 2013 through the Dáil tonight, the government will begin the process of removing 96,000 families across the country from council housing lists ensuring they will never get a council house, despite being on housing waiting lists for up to 15 years."

Can anyone explain this, does this mean there will not be a council list, those who have been waiting in hope for years are now not on a list and will never get housing?? Anyone any info on this.. cheers

http://richardboydbarrett.ie/2014/06/17/passing-of-housing-bill-tonight-will-be-a-cruel-blow-to-96000-housing-applicants-as-housing-list-dissolved-and-social-housing-provision-privatised/

Boyd Barrett would object to free money
He is talking rubbish. There will be a more streamlined system, operated through Councils. With rent payments going to the Landlord, not tenant. Transfer lists will operate.

quadrifoglio verde

Iseedeadpixels wrote: »

So instead of paying something you would have them pay nothing?

Where did I say that. I said that they pay feck all in rent compared to the market rate. They should be paying higher, or living in an area where they can afford to live.

We've a few interesting anomalies in this country. Many of those who work around the docklands can't afford to live there, as a result commuting from a far. At the same time you've a lot of prime residential land in the area being used as council housing paying the council a notional rent each week/month. This is t fair to the person who pays high levels of income tax to subsidise johnny on the dole for the last 20 years and living on pearse st.

What should be done is these sites redeveloped into MUDs, and rented to the highest paying tenants. Using the money from this the council then goes and relocates johnny on the dole for the last 20 years to somewhere where demand for housing isn't as strong.

You might say then how'd he get a job....the reality is he's been on the dole the last 20 years of his life, living in area rich in employment and couldn't manage to get a job.

bajer101

MouseTail wrote: »

Boyd Barrett would object to free money
He is talking rubbish. There will be a more streamlined system, operated through Councils. With rent payments going to the Landlord, not tenant. Transfer lists will operate.

I wouldn't be a huge fan of RBB's political philosophies, but he is genuine in his concern and he does raise some very valid points. Rent payments going directly to landlords is probably a good thing and I don't think you will find any disagreement from landlords or good rent allowance tenants about this. But these new measures and the point raised by the OP are not concerned with that. Your mention of transfer lists was also addressed by RBB in the interview I heard, and while I don't have any experience with how this works, he seemed to raise very valid concerns - namely, how to you transfer out of a rent allowance accommodation? And apparently you can't even get on the transfer list unless it is critical.

And saying that it will be a streamlined situation operated by the councils is a bit of a joke. While people here like to highlight the spongers in the system, I would like to highlight the spongers employed by the council. In my brief experience of having to get myself placed on the housing list to qualify for rent allowance while I was out of work for four months, I encountered the most useless tossers in the council who had no interest in helping me even though I had worked and paid tax for the previous 20 years.

Owryan

An often ignored issue is the "council house for life" system.

Its often the case that people get a council house when they need it but over time they get back into the workplace and earn decent money. I know of one couple with income of €1800 a week in a council house and they are paying the max rate of rent which is tiny. They have effectively gotten subsidized rent for life as it stands.

A change needs to occur where council houses can be taken back when the occupiers are no longer considered in need of social housing.

No Pants

bajer101 wrote: »

But I'm alright, because I can afford rent. But if something did happen where I couldn't work, I would like to know that I could get a council house. These new measures would leave me on rent allowance with no sense of security. I think it is a short-sighted measure.

No one has a sense of security. I have a mortgage to pay. I was unemployed between 2009 and 2010. I got the basic dole, €204 reduced to €196. There was no other money coming due. Do I spoke to the bank and made an interest-only arrangement. I'll be paying for that at the end of the mortgage.

What security do I have as a houseowner over someone who is renting, over someone who is on rent allowance? If the money stops getting paid, we all have to move.

bajer101

Owryan wrote: »

An often ignored issue is the "council house for life" system.

Its often the case that people get a council house when they need it but over time they get back into the workplace and earn decent money. I know of one couple with income of €1800 a week in a council house and they are paying the max rate of rent which is tiny. They have effectively gotten subsidized rent for life as it stands.

A change needs to occur where council houses can be taken back when the occupiers are no longer considered in need of social housing.

I think you are wrong there. Most councils charge rent for council houses based on the wages of the tenants - with no max cap. Sometimes this can result in the tenants paying more than the market rate. I was going out with a girl who had a council house and when I enquired about moving in with her it became apparent that due to my salary, we would have ended up paying over €1k a month - for a crappy property in a horrible estate, when you could rent a four bed semi in a private estate in the same town for the same price. Needless to say, we rented the private house. But she kept the council house and paid her nominal rent, because otherwise she would have lost if/when we split up - which we did. Crazy system that encourages this and which resulted in a house lying empty. But what could she do?

The_Morrigan

Ok, to avoid the political or media spin on this and to avoid the thread descending into chaos below are the links to the legislation mentioned in the OP.

Legislation: http://www.environ.ie/en/Legislation/DevelopmentandHousing/Housing/FileDownLoad,37985,en.pdf

Explanatory Memo: http://www.environ.ie/en/Legislation/DevelopmentandHousing/Housing/FileDownLoad,37986,en.pdf

Please feel free to discuss the legislation, the new Housing Assistance Scheme, updates to how the existing laws are being amended etc.
Do not have this descend into an RA/Council House/DSP recipient bashing thread - I will issue infractions/bans if you ignore this warning.

BOHS

The problem with the housing list/ rent allowance is that pretty much anyone can apply once you are under the income limit i.e an 18 year old can decide they just want to move out of the family home and get RA for private rented accommodation. This means that anyone can technically get a council house once they wait long enough.

Realistically all council housing should be allocated to people with a medical or welfare priority before anyone else is considered. The problem with the new scheme is that people who really do need council housing will have their position hurt by moving to the transfer list.

fussyonion

BOHS wrote: »

The problem with the housing list/ rent allowance is that pretty much anyone can apply once you are under the income limit i.e an 18 year old can decide they just want to move out of the family home and get RA for private rented accommodation. This means that anyone can technically get a council house once they wait long enough.

Realistically all council housing should be allocated to people with a medical or welfare priority before anyone else is considered. The problem with the new scheme is that people who really do need council housing will have their position hurt by moving to the transfer list.

Medical priority *is* given to people on council housing lists but they're up there with families too.
So if you fancy a council house and you don't have a medical condition, have yourself six children.
I'm not being smart but I know for a fact this goes on and it's disgraceful.

Bongalongherb

BOHS wrote: »

The problem with the housing list/ rent allowance is that pretty much anyone can apply once you are under the income limit i.e an 18 year old can decide they just want to move out of the family home and get RA for private rented accommodation. This means that anyone can technically get a council house once they wait long enough.

Realistically all council housing should be allocated to people with a medical or welfare priority before anyone else is considered. The problem with the new scheme is that people who really do need council housing will have their position hurt by moving to the transfer list.

That is incorrect. A person cannot just go on rent allowance. You have to pay rent out of your own pocket for 6 months and then if you happen to be unemployed thereafter then that person will be eligible for rent allowance.

Also, anyone cannot just get council housing either. Special circumstances need to be forwarded as to qualify and be accepted for housing.

BOHS

Bongalongherb wrote: »

That is incorrect. A person cannot just go on rent allowance. You have to pay rent out of your own pocket for 6 months and then if you happen to be unemployed thereafter then that person will be eligible for rent allowance.

Also, anyone cannot just get council housing either. Special circumstances need to be forwarded as to qualify and be accepted for housing.

Both are untrue, you need to be renting for 6 months or have a HNA from your local council. A HNA is just a letter stating you have been accepted on the council housing list.

Also special circumstances can be something as little as you are sharing a room with a sibling in a family home.

BOHS

fussyonion wrote: »

Medical priority *is* given to people on council housing lists but they're up there with families too.
So if you fancy a council house and you don't have a medical condition, have yourself six children.
I'm not being smart but I know for a fact this goes on and it's disgraceful.

Sorry not really sure what you mean by this...

fussyonion

BOHS wrote: »

Sorry not really sure what you mean by this...

What bit?!
I said if you want to be housed quickly and you don't have a medical condition, go and have six children. Then you'll be housed.
What's not to understand?

Bongalongherb

BOHS wrote: »

Both are untrue, you need to be renting for 6 months or have a HNA from your local council. A HNA is just a letter stating you have been accepted on the council housing list.

Also special circumstances can be something as little as you are sharing a room with a sibling in a family home.

Yes, basically I was trying to say that if you are accepted on the council housing list then you will get rent allowance. I thought your comment was in relation to anyone just leaving home and automatically getting rent allowance. I get ye now.

Owryan

bajer101 wrote: »

I think you are wrong there. Most councils charge rent for council houses based on the wages of the tenants - with no max cap.

Hopefully i am wrong and there is no cap on the amount of rent payable. In my example however there up till late last year there was for this couple.

Still tho if someone is earning €1800 pw why should they be allowed stay in a council house?.

Eric Cartman

fussyonion wrote: »

Medical priority *is* given to people on council housing lists but they're up there with families too.
So if you fancy a council house and you don't have a medical condition, have yourself six children.
I'm not being smart but I know for a fact this goes on and it's disgraceful.

It does. people having children to use them as an income source or having children while on welfare and burdening the tax payer are the lowest of the low in my book.

Ray Palmer

bajer101 wrote: »

I think you are wrong there. Most councils charge rent for council houses based on the wages of the tenants - with no max cap. Sometimes this can result in the tenants paying more than the market rate. I was going out with a girl who had a council house and when I enquired about moving in with her it became apparent that due to my salary, we would have ended up paying over €1k a month - for a crappy property in a horrible estate, when you could rent a four bed semi in a private estate in the same town for the same price. Needless to say, we rented the private house. But she kept the council house and paid her nominal rent, because otherwise she would have lost if/when we split up - which we did. Crazy system that encourages this and which resulted in a house lying empty. But what could she do?

So she lied to the council in order to keep the property. She could maybe not moved in with you and been an honest person and given her kids a good example of honesty.

The system in no way encourages this behaviour, selfish views and action encourage such behaviour. I see this as incredibly low behaviour

No Pants

BOHS wrote: »

Also special circumstances can be something as little as you are sharing a room with a sibling in a family home.

Seriously? Didn't we all do that growing up? I had to share a room with my younger brother.

hdowney

No Pants wrote: »

Seriously? Didn't we all do that growing up? I had to share a room with my younger brother.

Yes but sharing the room with your sibling when you are children VS sharing the room with your sibling when you are both full grown adults?!?

No Pants

hdowney wrote: »

Yes but sharing the room with your sibling when you are children VS sharing the room with your sibling when you are both full grown adults?!?

I'm not seeing a difference. If either sibling doesn't like it, they can move out.

MadDog76

Owryan wrote: »

An often ignored issue is the "council house for life" system.

Its often the case that people get a council house when they need it but over time they get back into the workplace and earn decent money. I know of one couple with income of €1800 a week in a council house and they are paying the max rate of rent which is tiny. They have effectively gotten subsidized rent for life as it stands.

A change needs to occur where council houses can be taken back when the occupiers are no longer considered in need of social housing.

That's not true at all .......... Council rents are based on household income, the more you earn the more you pay .......... there is no maximum rent

No Pants

MadDog76 wrote: »

That's not true at all .......... Council rents are based on household income, the more you earn the more you pay .......... there is no maximum rent

How do council rents compare to market rates?

MadDog76

No Pants wrote: »

How do council rents compare to market rates?

Well if you were earning 1800 euros per week you could be paying over the market rate depending on the property and location etc

Grolschevik

MadDog76 wrote: »

Well if you were earning 1800 euros per week you could be paying over the market rate depending on the property and location etc

So council house rents could match or indeed be more than the average market rent for a similar rental in the same area? Interesting.

No Pants

From the Fingal CoCo website:

HOW DO YOU CALCULATE HOW MUCH RENT I WILL HAVE TO PAY?
The assessable income (net income) for the principal earner is determined and rent is calculated
at 12% of this figure.
The assessable income (net income) of each subsidiary earner is determined and rent is
calculated at 12% of this figure to a maximum of €40 per week per subsidiary earner.
The combined principal and subsidiary earners contributions form the weekly household rent.

WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PRINCIPAL AND SUBSIDIARY
EARNERS?
The principal earner is the person with the highest net income. A subsidiary earner is a member
of the household aged 18 years or over who has an income or is entitled to an income.

WHAT INCOME IS NOT ASSESSABLE?
The following income is not included in the calculation of rent:
(a) Child benefit, orphans allowances or orphans pensions.
(b) Allowances payable for fostering children.
(c) Allowances for domiciliary care of a child suffering from a severe disability.
(d) Disability Allowance for those under 18 years of age.
(e) Respite Care Grants.
(f) Higher Education Grants.
(g) Fuel Allowance.
(h) Living Alone Allowance.
(i) Extra Allowance for people aged 80 and above.
(j) Assistance received from any charitable organisation.

The following items are partially assessed:
(k) Community Employment Programme income –Where a person’s income is increased as a
result of participation in Community Employment Programme(s) the weekly charge of the
tenant shall not be increased solely as a result of such participation for a cumulative period
of 3 years.
(l) Back toWork Allowance –Where a tenant is certified by the Department of Social
Protection as taking part in a Back toWork Allowance Scheme their weekly charge shall
not increase for the first twelve months of the Scheme as long as the combined gross
income from the Back toWork Scheme and employment /self employment does not
exceed €500 per week.

12% of €1,800 is €216 each week, or approximately €929 a month (using 4.3 weeks in a month. Still seems like a good deal to me. I would argue that someone on €1,800 a week should be moved out of council housing and told to find themselves somewhere to live, freeing up the council house for someone who cannot house themselves.

Iseedeadpixels

No Pants wrote: »

From the Fingal CoCo website:


12% of €1,800 is €216 each week, or approximately €929 a month (using 4.3 weeks in a month. Still seems like a good deal to me. I would argue that someone on €1,800 a week should be moved out of council housing and told to find themselves somewhere to live, freeing up the council house for someone who cannot house themselves.

That x1000 agree with you.

Mrs OBumble

MadDog76 wrote: »

That's not true at all .......... Council rents are based on household income, the more you earn the more you pay .......... there is no maximum rent

There is in some council areas, eg in Galway City it's E180 per week.

http://www.galwaycity.ie/housing-rents/housing-rents-information/#4

TheBandicoot

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

What should be done is these sites redeveloped into MUDs, and rented to the highest paying tenants. Using the money from this the council then goes and relocates johnny on the dole for the last 20 years to somewhere where demand for housing isn't as strong.

The problem is that you can't just do this, politically or socially. After all the Johnnys have been living in this area for 20 years, it is their home, it has its own culture and environment, it is a living community. These community members will not be happy to be moved on and separated.