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Tony Blair - Iraq, Syria and the Middle East.

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    #122
    Conas
    Registered Users Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭Conas


    Nodin wrote: »
    But you already implied ISIS were being funded by the US.

    "The ISIS has come in from Syria, and are the same group that are fighting to overthrow Assad. It's well documented that the Americans have funded those rebels in Syria, and are looking to fund them some more, with another half a billion dollars."



    In an election held during a war, under a dictatorship.

    You buy into American mainstream media propaganda. What evidence do you have that Assad is running a dictatorship? The pictures of dead children, who's murders and gassing's could easily have been committed by the rebels. We get told, and have been led to believe that Hussein, Gaddafi were both tyrants and dictators, and America wanted to liberate these country's. Didn't turn out that well did it? Assad won in a landslide, the proof is in the pudding. The Syrians want him to stay, and that's what matters the most.


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    #123
    Conas
    Registered Users Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭Conas


    Nodin wrote: »
    But you already implied ISIS were being funded by the US.

    "The ISIS has come in from Syria, and are the same group that are fighting to overthrow Assad. It's well documented that the Americans have funded those rebels in Syria, and are looking to fund them some more, with another half a billion dollars."

    It's just my opinion. They have to get funded and armed from somewhere.


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    #124
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Conas wrote: »
    You buy into American mainstream media propaganda..

    Thanks.
    Conas wrote: »
    What evidence do you have that Assad is running a dictatorship?
    .

    I find it hard to take that seriously.
    Conas wrote: »
    We get told, and have been led to believe that Hussein, Gaddafi were both tyrants and dictators,
    .

    They were.
    Conas wrote: »
    Assad won in a landslide, the proof is in the pudding. The Syrians want him to stay, and that's what matters the most.


    The leader is chosen by god. We can tell, because he is the leader.

    North Korean leaders win by a landslide too. Popular fellows.

    Conas wrote: »
    It's just my opinion. They have to get funded and armed from somewhere. .

    An opinion with no evidence.


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    #125
    Conas
    Registered Users Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭Conas


    Nodin wrote: »
    Thanks.


    I find it hard to take that seriously.


    They were.



    The leader is chosen by god. We can tell, because he is the leader.

    North Korean leaders win by a landslide too. Popular fellows.




    An opinion with no evidence.

    They have been wrong about everything, and everything that they have done has turned out to be a total disaster. If you believe that they are all dictators and tyrants, then why do the countries turn in to an ash heap of ruins when they get rid of the so called dictator. George W Bush is a worse tyrant, Lied to an entire nation, and caused all this mayhem. But then again only Arabs and Muslims are tyrants these days.


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    #126
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Conas wrote: »
    They have been wrong about everything, and everything that they have done has turned out to be a total disaster. If you believe that they are all dictators and tyrants, then why do the countries turn in to an ash heap of ruins when they get rid of the so called dictator. George W Bush is a worse tyrant, Lied to an entire nation, and caused all this mayhem. But then again only Arabs and Muslims are tyrants these days.


    I fail to see the relevance of that generalised diatribe.

    So if a Dictator runs a country and is deposed, and the country then goes downhill, that proves he wasn't a Dictator?


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    #127
    Conas
    Registered Users Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭Conas


    Nodin wrote: »
    I fail to see the relevance of that generalised diatribe.

    So if a Dictator runs a country and is deposed, and the country then goes downhill, that proves he wasn't a Dictator?

    It proves that the people don't think there leader is a dictator. Assad even said it himself in an interview, that he was fighting terrorists in Syria, and that he was one man, if his people wanted him gone he'd be gone. Couldn't agree more. Everyone is a tyrant and dictator, we can't call buy into those keywords.


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    #128
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Conas wrote: »
    It proves that the people don't think there leader is a dictator. .

    How, exactly.
    Conas wrote: »
    Assad even said it himself in an interview, that he was fighting terrorists in Syria, and that he was one man, if his people wanted him gone he'd be gone. Couldn't agree more. Everyone is a tyrant and dictator, we can't call buy into those keywords.

    O well that must be true then.

    "his people" indeed, which could refer to all the people of Syria, the faction that support him and his family, or whatever.


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    #129
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Conas wrote: »
    It proves that the people don't think there leader is a dictator.

    No, it just proves he was pretty good at being a dictator. Job one for a dictator is to stay in power and keep the people you are dictating to in line. Assad's dad killed maybe 20,000 people in Hama in 1982, and put manners on the opposition for a generation.


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    #130
    Conas
    Registered Users Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭Conas


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    No, it just proves he was pretty good at being a dictator. Job one for a dictator is to stay in power and keep the people you are dictating to in line. Assad's dad killed maybe 20,000 people in Hama in 1982, and put manners on the opposition for a generation.

    Lyndon Johnson, and George W Bush killed a lot more based upon a pack of lies. Then again they were American and white. Only Arab leaders are dictators, and tyrants. Assad got over 10 millions votes. George W Bush had to steal the election in 2000, and gave us an 8 year horror show. We all know it's about oil, and installing American puppets as leaders there. If you support that, you are well entitled to. But everyone can see through it now, thank god. Long may it continue. The warhawks are losing. Obama couldn't get support to bomb Syria last year, people are waking up.


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    #131
    Tardful Slakerly II
    Closed Accounts Posts: 124 ✭✭Tardful Slakerly II


    While there's no direct evidence of involvement with ISIS from the US there is huge precedent. It's what they do, train rebels, depose governments by whatever means, the CIA historically is heavily involved in these movements. Rebels don't just appear, they require recruitment, funding, training, logistic support and their own propaganda. It's been said outright by leading rebels in syria that they had training from cia operatives, as well as some heavy duty weaponry. A drop in the bucket for what it's worth. I'm amazed how deeply people keep their heads buried with regard to all of this, as if it weren't the root cause.


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    #132
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Tardful Slakerly II wrote: »
    While there's no direct evidence of involvement with ISIS from the US there is huge precedent. It's what they do, train rebels, depose governments by whatever means, the CIA historically is heavily involved in these movements. Rebels don't just appear, they require recruitment, funding, training, logistic support and their own propaganda. It's been said outright by leading rebels in syria that they had training from cia operatives, as well as some heavy duty weaponry. A drop in the bucket for what it's worth. I'm amazed how deeply people keep their heads buried with regard to all of this, as if it weren't the root cause.

    So you've no evidence either?


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    #133
    Tardful Slakerly II
    Closed Accounts Posts: 124 ✭✭Tardful Slakerly II


    Nodin wrote: »
    So you've no evidence either?


    Not in my pockets, no. And I don't claim certainty. I said there's a precedent. Do you listen to official statements and take them at face value? That's a genuine question.

    The precedent is there, the same pattern and strategy which is a proven method of US clandestine services. Now consider the wests heavy involvement in the region, and interference. It boggles the mind anyone would deny the possibility. Do you know anything about the history of the cia and the operations they've run?

    It's only a few years ago Iraq was outright invaded, and with only outright lies to justify it. But this seems to be a stretch, eh?

    Looking at this situation I do the only thing anyone can and look at everything that has come before. I would be shocked to see no involvement from the US in this.

    Israel are delighted, they just announced support for the Kurds. SA are delighted too. A divided Iraq is a neutered Iraq, less threat from Iran/Iraq/Syria together.


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    #134
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Tardful Slakerly II wrote: »
    Not in my pockets, no. And I don't claim certainty. I said there's a precedent. Do you listen to official statements and take them at face value? That's a genuine question..

    It depends.
    Tardful Slakerly II wrote: »
    The precedent is there, the same pattern and strategy which is a proven method of US clandestine services. Now consider the wests heavy involvement in the region, and interference. It boggles the mind anyone would deny the possibility. Do you know anything about the history of the cia and the operations they've run? .

    I may well do.
    Tardful Slakerly II wrote: »
    It's only a few years ago Iraq was outright invaded, and with only outright lies to justify it. But this seems to be a stretch, eh?

    Looking at this situation I do the only thing anyone can and look at everything that has come before. I would be shocked to see no involvement from the US in this. .

    If a bird falls from the sky = CIA. Its not a very convincing line, tbh.


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    #135
    Tardful Slakerly II
    Closed Accounts Posts: 124 ✭✭Tardful Slakerly II


    The bird analogy is without precedent. A silly thing to say.


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    #136
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Tardful Slakerly II wrote: »
    The bird analogy is without precedent. A silly thing to say.


    There is no evidence to say that ISIS was directly and deliberately funded by the US. They've been quite wary of who they've been involved with thus far in Syria, and - not being entirely thick - are unlikely to aid people who attack US interests now or in the future.


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    #137
    cruasder777
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭cruasder777


    Nodin wrote: »
    There is no evidence to say that ISIS was directly and deliberately funded by the US. They've been quite wary of who they've been involved with thus far in Syria, and - not being entirely thick - are unlikely to aid people who attack US interests now or in the future.


    There is plenty of circumstantial evidence. Israel would not be providing military assistance to ISIS as it has, without foretelling the US.


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    #138
    Tardful Slakerly II
    Closed Accounts Posts: 124 ✭✭Tardful Slakerly II


    Nodin wrote: »
    There is no evidence to say that ISIS was directly and deliberately funded by the US. They've been quite wary of who they've been involved with thus far in Syria, and - not being entirely thick - are unlikely to aid people who attack US interests now or in the future.

    Israels and Saudi's interests are US interests as far as they go.
    More to the point, I don't see that Iraq ever panned out like the administration wanted, US military action in Iraq against ISIS was potentially offered only if Maliki step down, which is a big red flag if you think about it for a moment. I imagine if Iraq is not going to be controlled in the way Washington wants then they would rather see it parceled.


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    #139
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Conas wrote: »
    Assad won in a landslide, the proof is in the pudding. The Syrians want him to stay, and that's what matters the most.
    LOL. The Democratic Front for the Reunification of the Fatherland in North Korea won all 687 seats in their last election, with 100% of the vote and a 99.97% turnout - there's clearly proof in the pudding there. The North Koreans want Kim to stay, and that's what matters the most...


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    #140
    Lockstep
    Registered Users Posts: 9,029 ✭✭✭Lockstep


    cruasder777 wrote: »
    There is plenty of circumstantial evidence. Israel would not be providing military assistance to ISIS as it has, without foretelling the US.

    Israel hasn't been providing military assistance to ISIS. They're smart enough to avoid bolstering groups like ISIS which is getting strong enough to appear against them on the Golan Heights and drastically increases the risk of ISIS terrorism against Israel. Israel will use proxies (falangist militias for example) but isn't going to throw its lot in with an expansionist jihadist organisation.
    Can you provide any evidence of this?


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    #141
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    cruasder777 wrote: »
    There is plenty of circumstantial evidence. Israel would not be providing military assistance to ISIS as it has, without foretelling the US.


    Evidence for this?


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    #142
    Gringo180
    Registered Users Posts: 9,205 ✭✭✭Gringo180


    Azwaldo55 wrote: »
    Palestine was a desert when the Jews repopulated the place in the late 19th and early 20th century. Jewish settlers cultivated the land and created a thriving economy.

    So if your family owned a few acres of land would it be okay for me to come along and claim it as my land because I am going to build a few houses on it??


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    #143
    cruasder777
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭cruasder777


    Nodin wrote: »
    Evidence for this?

    Israeli air force has supported ground ops for the FSA/ISIS in Syria. Goggle is your friend.


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    #144
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    cruasder777 wrote: »
    Israeli air force has supported ground ops for the FSA/ISIS in Syria. Goggle is your friend.


    No, google leads me to any old thing. I want proof of this support, provided by you, as evidence of your specific claim. That we all know exactly whats being referred to.


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    #145
    nacho libre
    Registered Users Posts: 16,639 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/why-we-stuck-with-maliki--and-lost-iraq/2014/07/03/0dd6a8a4-f7ec-11e3-a606-946fd632f9f1_story.html

    Sounds about right.


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    #146
    Lockstep
    Registered Users Posts: 9,029 ✭✭✭Lockstep


    cruasder777 wrote: »
    Israeli air force has supported ground ops for the FSA/ISIS in Syria. Goggle is your friend.

    It's not our job to substantiate your claims. Don't expect others to source your opinions.


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    #147
    OneEightSeven
    Registered Users Posts: 1,334 ✭✭✭OneEightSeven


    Gringo180 wrote: »
    So if your family owned a few acres of land would it be okay for me to come along and claim it as my land because I am going to build a few houses on it??

    It's not like the Arabs didn't that during the Conquests. Besides, many Jews bought land there when Zionism began. They were given a state because they were being attacked by the Arabs and everyone felt sorry for them after the Holocaust.


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    #148
    realweirdo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 974 ✭✭✭realweirdo


    cruasder777 wrote: »
    Israeli air force has supported ground ops for the FSA/ISIS in Syria. Goggle is your friend.

    Complete garbage. From Israel's point of view, they have no allies in the Syrian conflict on any side. Their air attacks were on Hezbollah targets inside Syria, because they feared they would get their hands on some of Assads missiles and/or chemical weapons to use at a later stage against Israel.

    It would be in Israel's interest to see a stable Syria with either Assad in charge or the moderate oppostion. Having thousands of ISIS fighters on their border is not in their interest.


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    #149
    realweirdo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 974 ✭✭✭realweirdo


    Conas wrote: »
    It proves that the people don't think there leader is a dictator. Assad even said it himself in an interview, that he was fighting terrorists in Syria, and that he was one man, if his people wanted him gone he'd be gone. Couldn't agree more. Everyone is a tyrant and dictator, we can't call buy into those keywords.

    Its very hard for the people to remove Assad given that he rigs every election and drops barrel bombs indescriminately on opposition areas with the aim of terrorising and driving them abroad as refugees. But I suppose you will say the barrel bombs are fabricated too.


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    #150
    realweirdo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 974 ✭✭✭realweirdo


    Conas wrote: »
    The only future outcome of anything in the Middle-East is more violence, bloodshed, and chaos. The Americans want it to be that way.

    Look at this ISIS that has come from Syria. All funded, and armed by the USA. In Iraq they are considered Terrorists, and an enemy. Yet in Syria they are considered rebels, and are allies of the USA in trying to overthrow Assad. Obama hasn't a clue which side he's on. What a disaster he has proven to be.

    Now he wants $500 million dollars to fund the rebels aka the ISIS in Syria. :confused:

    It's laughable really. Global War on Terror my ass; more like a Global War on Error. Let the Americans clean up their own mess, everyone else stay the hell out of it.

    You have absolutely no clue about the Syrian conflict do you or who the various factions are??

    If you were bothered which you aren't, you might know that the moderate FSA if there is such a thing have been battling hard against ISIS as well as Assad. ISIS meanwhile are mainly interested in fighting the regular FSA and hardly ever attack Assad. Likewise Assad rarely attacks ISIS except occassionally. ISIS and the regular FSA used to be on the same side but are now sworn enemies.

    As an example:

    http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/2014/06/21/ISIS-executes-three-Syrian-rebel-officers.html

    I do agree however that Obama has done much to help the rise of ISIS, but not just him, I include Merkel and all the other anti-intervenionist leaders, who have sat back and allowed ISIS become a major force in the middle east.

    A year or two ago ISIS could have been neutralised by the regular FSA had they been properly funded and armed. Now ISIS are well on the way to becoming a state in the middle east with one of the most powerful armies. It seems they now have unstoppable momentum.

    As long as religion is a major influence in the middle east, the region will remain a hellhole much as Europe was until the Enlightenment.


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    #151
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    OneEightSeven wrote: »
    It's not like the Arabs didn't that during the Conquests.

    Palestinians are descended from the Jewish populace who converted to Christianity and Islam, and inter-married with various invaders over the centuries. So what other Arabic speaking nations did, is neither here not there.
    OneEightSeven wrote: »
    Besides, many Jews bought land there when Zionism began.

    So? They didn't buy the entire country..... Not even close to it.

    Also, owning land confers no right to create a state.
    OneEightSeven wrote: »
    They were given a state because they were being attacked by the Arabs and everyone felt sorry for them after the Holocaust.

    You will find that it was Zionists who did the attacking, what with going to a foreign land to setup a state, based on an extremist interpretation of the Bible, normally being referred to as an invasion, or colonialism. Those things generally end badly for those already living there.

    Also, what right did anyone have to give Palestinian land to Zionists? After all it was Nazi Germany who murdered 6 millions Jews, so why should the Palestinian be made to pay for someone else's crimes?


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