most profitable beef systems

farm14

Which is the most profitable beef systems/ha for farmers. Even though the prices are bad which has the most potential to leave some profit?

epfff

farm14 wrote: »

Which is the most profitable beef systems/ha for farmers. Even though the prices are bad which has the most potential to leave some profit?

Processor to consumer even if you have to cut a retailer in to the mix it's still a good system

larrymiller

farm14 wrote: »

Which is the most profitable beef systems/ha for farmers. Even though the prices are bad which has the most potential to leave some profit?

Buy a small few let them roam collect sfp.
Sit in armchair.
Repeat

Greengrass1

larrymiller wrote: »

Buy a small few let them roam collect sfp.
Sit in armchair.
Repeat

Or
Eat
Sleep
Milk
Repeat

TUBBY

At the minute, question probably is which is the least loss

Whichever way i think it has to be low input and only very necessary spending anyway cause margins are too tight.
Intensive has too money involved and more potential for loss with fluctuating prices.

farm14

Surely the top 1/3 beef farmers are making decent profits though. Didn't johnstown castle make €2,000/ha gross margin from aberdeen angus & hereford calf to beef last year I know the price was €4.50/kg but still their must be a margin if done well at middling prices?

GRASSorMUCK

Greengrass1 wrote: »

Or
Eat
Sleep
Milk
Repeat

Does that not get sooo boring though, having every day half planned out that can' be altered!?

Username John

GRASSorMUCK wrote: »

Does that not get sooo boring though, having every day half planned out that can' be altered!?

But sure isn't almost every job half planned out / the same really?

I know lads will say every day is different in their job, but I think 90% is the same, with maybe small differences every now and then in the remaining 10%

Or maybe that's just me and my job

moy83

farm14 wrote: »

Surely the top 1/3 beef farmers are making decent profits though. Didn't johnstown castle make €2,000/ha gross margin from aberdeen angus & hereford calf to beef last year I know the price was €4.50/kg but still their must be a margin if done well at middling prices?

70/80 cent per kg drop this year could make small money out of that €2000 /ha margin .

Muckit

farm14 wrote: »

Surely the top 1/3 beef farmers are making decent profits though. Didn't johnstown castle make €2,000/ha gross margin from aberdeen angus & hereford calf to beef last year I know the price was €4.50/kg but still their must be a margin if done well at middling prices?

Have you seen that farm? Not particularly typical of your average beef farm .I'd say they have grass there on Christmas Day and what's more could graze it!

Midlandsman80

Greengrass1 wrote: »

Or
Eat
Sleep
Milk
Repeat

So everyone knows this is a play on a fat boy slim song Eat Sleep Rave repeat....or else maybe Norman Cook aka FBS is from a dairy background :-))

moy83

Midlandsman80 wrote: »

So everyone knows this is a play on a fat boy slim song Eat Sleep Rave repeat....or else maybe Norman Cook aka FBS is from a dairy background :-))

His ould fella has a blast of jerseyx 's I heard

_Brian

Greengrass1 wrote: »

Or
Eat
Sleep
Milk
Repeat
PROFIT

Fixed that for ya

_Brian

I'd have thought that at a minimum lads bringing stock right through the rearing chain all the way to the factory have the best chance.

The only caveat to that is that they need to be good stockmen from a breeding perspective AND well clued in to finishing regimes AND connected enough to be getting top prices on the factory floor. While there are quite a few lads running stick through this type of system I'm not sure how many are maximising all aspects.

Midlandsman80

More end to end involvement is what's required, It doesn't make sense to me that there is no large beef co-op's providing everything from group feed buying to slaughter and sale, would have thought the likes of super value or dunnes would like to be involved with something like that buy maybe it would get them too close for their own comfort and would be afraid of bad press if price drops happened and they needed to drop with market. Nothing stopping a model like this going after international market, fx Buckley type brand x 1000

farm14

moy83 wrote: »

70/80 cent per kg drop this year could make small money out of that €2000 /ha margin .

according them they said the gross margin would still deliver over €1,000/ha gross margin at a beef price of €3.50/kg price not great at present but does it give encouragement?

moy83

farm14 wrote: »

according them they said the gross margin would still deliver over €1,000/ha gross margin at a beef price of €3.50/kg price not great at present but does it give encouragement?

It does I suppose . €1000 /ha is not to be sneezed at .

willfarmerman

There no silver bullet I'm afraid. Every system will have good years and bad. They are all swings and roundabouts. Just if you get lucky and get the right hop of the ball now and then you will keep going.

rangler1

moy83 wrote: »

It does I suppose . €1000 /ha is not to be sneezed at .

A ha of good land should be able to carry 2.5 - 3 of those her/aa calf to beef units ( 2.5 - 3 calves and 2.5- 3yearlings/ha), you'd probably only need silage for 6 - 8 weeks of their second winter....and you mightn't need to put them in at all

farm14

rangler1 wrote: »

A ha of good land should be able to carry 2.5 - 3 of those her/aa calf to beef units ( 2.5 - 3 calves and 2.5- 3yearlings/ha), you'd probably only need silage for 6 - 8 weeks of their second winter....and you mightn't need to put them in at all

Their is even lads out their with 4lu/ha. Maybe beef farmers should try lower cost of production? Was a good point you made about finishing off the grass. What carcase weight would most continental bullocks finish at at 24 months of age?

Farmer Pudsey

For the last 3 years it has been finishing using summer grazing. However very capital intensive. Stocked at 2/acre it would cost you nearly 2K/acre to stock if you only picked up value. So a 60 acre farm would require you to buy 100K+ in stock not for the fainthearted. After that store to beef. Bulls were fairy profitable, however they first removed the over 2yolds and now only want sub 16 months.

At the monment store to finish if you can convert someone else's loss into your profit.

Muckit

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

At the moment store to finish if you can convert someone else's loss into your profit.

Yes, but this isn't good for any system as a whole longterm. You can't base your gains solely on someone elses loss. Everyone has to be getting their own little bit of the pie or it all goes to pot.

tanko

Stocking land at 4LU/Ha and housing cattle for only six weeks in the winter or maybe not at all. What planet is all this happening on? I'd love to swap my place for the same acres there:rolleyes:

willfarmerman

tanko wrote: »

Stocking land at 4LU/Ha and housing cattle for only six weeks in the winter or maybe not at all. What planet is all this happening on? I'd love to swap my place for the same acres there:rolleyes:

rangler1

tanko wrote: »

Stocking land at 4LU/Ha and housing cattle for only six weeks in the winter or maybe not at all. What planet is all this happening on? I'd love to swap my place for the same acres there:rolleyes:

Surely if they're her/aa it should be possible to finish them before they go in, or with second class management by Christmas, hence the 6-8 weeks silage, used to do it with british friesians here, killing them at 24mths. buying calves in jan

moy83

rangler1 wrote: »

A ha of good land should be able to carry 2.5 - 3 of those her/aa calf to beef units ( 2.5 - 3 calves and 2.5- 3yearlings/ha), you'd probably only need silage for 6 - 8 weeks of their second winter....and you mightn't need to put them in at all

Im afraid that won't happen here , we are just too wet to get away with winters that short .
I do know a fella that swopped from 60 continental suckler to weanling to about 35 wh cows and finishes everything himself for the Hereford scheme and he says he is much better off . Im not sure if he is stocked very heavy but he does get away with short winters aswell and uses shag all nuts to finish his stuff

tanko

moy83 wrote: »

Im afraid that won't happen here , we are just too wet to get away with winters that short .
I do know a fella that swopped from 60 continental suckler to weanling to about 35 wh cows and finishes everything himself for the Hereford scheme and he says he is much better off . Im not sure if he is stocked very heavy but he does get away with short winters aswell and uses shag all nuts to finish his stuff

What age is he killing them at. Would it be possible to kill march born calves at 19 months before they are housed for a second winter?

_Brian

Long winters in marginal land is a serious expense.
Around us 18-20 weeks would be common and I've seen it longer.

@muckit. You'd think that system couldn't be sustained but the SFP will allow lads to go on selling these weanlings at a loss. I don't see much change there.

moy83

tanko wrote: »

What age is he killing them at. Would it be possible to kill march born calves at 19 months before they are housed for a second winter?

Im thinking its 24 months and he squeezes his bulls . 6/8 weeks is about all they would be in for and thats just weanlins and stores . He out winters the cows .

Farmer Pudsey

tanko wrote: »

What age is he killing them at. Would it be possible to kill march born calves at 19 months before they are housed for a second winter?

Teagasc has done studies in this type of system, they even factored higher June price compared to november price and found it more profitable. However there assumptions was getting cattle to kill 280ish kgs. No place for a store period, you would need to feed ration at grass for first year so that calves would be 300+ at housing. They would need to gain 60kgs over the winter and go back to good grass gaining over 1kg/day all that year.

With He and AA it is possible,as killing at 52% they would kill around 280kgs. However I be slow with Fresians or contenintals. they would kill at a lower % and FS would catch you as well. My winter is 110ish days so not afraid to hold 2yolds over the winter costs for second winter as opposeed to first are about 60% higher.The biggest issue would be price some Octobers and november can be devasting on price.

rangler1

moy83 wrote: »

Im afraid that won't happen here , we are just too wet to get away with winters that short .
I do know a fella that swopped from 60 continental suckler to weanling to about 35 wh cows and finishes everything himself for the Hereford scheme and he says he is much better off . Im not sure if he is stocked very heavy but he does get away with short winters aswell and uses shag all nuts to finish his stuff

You're not reading my post right I think, I'm saying when the animal comes to his second winter, he either should be fit to kill in October or by December if he's aa or Hereford, so eight weeks silage should get him to December. I can tell you the winters are no shorter here than any where else, but there's no point in keeping cattle through the winter if you can get them fit in Dec or before

willfarmerman

That is actually a good system. I misread it too. You need a good square jan or even a nov dec calf.

moy83

rangler1 wrote: »

You're not reading my post right I think, I'm saying when the animal comes to his second winter, he either should be fit to kill in October or by December if he's aa or Hereford, so eight weeks silage should get him to December. I can tell you the winters are no shorter here than any where else, but there's no point in keeping cattle through the winter if you can get them fit in Dec or before

I get you now , I was thinking it would be a great farm that could keep such a short winter with a high enough stocking rate .

rangler1

willfarmerman wrote: »

That is actually a good system. I misread it too. You need a good square jan or even a nov dec calf.

Used to do it in the eighties, it was a victim of its own success, Friesian bull calves went from £60 to near £200 in about 5 years, so we ended up making up the dairy farmer.....again

rangler1

I see darragh has another blip for the beef industry in tomorrows indo....

tanko

rangler1 wrote: »

I see darragh has another blip for the beef industry in tomorrows indo....he must be delighted with the response here

Are you saying that it's the fault of farmers that the beef industry is on the state it is?

Farmer Pudsey

Muckit wrote: »

Yes, but this isn't good for any system as a whole longterm. You can't base your gains solely on someone elses loss. Everyone has to be getting their own little bit of the pie or it all goes to pot.

When you are in store-finish, you should know your costs, include your margin and buy at that price or less. If I pay too much for a store I am increasing the store producer margin at my expense. The other issue is that for some cattle unless prices are at or over 4.5/kg then the profit is not in it for two farmers. Loads of money goes in transport and mart fees/ an animal that is moved three time and if transport has to be hires for one journey each time and for slaughter, mart fees and slaughter fees the costs will exceed 120 on the animal, this is not sustainable.

I am not so much basing my gains on someone else's losses but rather explaining the reality of how profit is achieved with a ruthless metaphor

A farmers only friend is his pocket

rangler1

tanko wrote: »

Are you saying that it's the fault of farmers that the beef industry is on the state it is?

No he gets commended here for reporting bad news for beef and journal gets slated for not reporting it.
Didn't see the bute case reported anywhere else.
Don't know what it means, probably not good news if it's the indo

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BqRDLA1IgAAsxF3.jpg:large

Muckit

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

A farmers only friend is his pocket

It's not much of a friend if there is a hole in it! I agree with all you are saying, but I think you missed my point. If you were constantly losing money at what you do, would you stay at it? My point I was trying to make was that if someone is constantly losing money they will not stay at it and then their product isn't there for the store buyer, or at best there isn't the same supply.

willfarmerman

Muckit wrote: »

It's not much of a friend if there is a hole in it! I agree with all you are saying, but I think you missed my point. If you were constantly losing money at what you do, would you stay at it? My point I was trying to make was that if someone is constantly losing money they will not stay at it and then their product isn't there for the store buyer, or at best there isn't the same supply.

Then numbers tighten. Those that held fast through the bad years will come good. For a while! ... Every system has good and bad years. And there is no silver bullet that farmers crave.

Conmaicne Mara

rangler1 wrote: »

No he gets commended here for reporting bad news for beef and journal gets slated for not reporting it.
Didn't see the bute case reported anywhere else.
Don't know what it means, probably not good news if it's the indo

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BqRDLA1IgAAsxF3.jpg:large

IFJ won't print controversial stories, which is why bad news often appear in the FI.

Mentioning no names I have that as fact firsthand.

willfarmerman

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

IFJ won't print controversial stories, which is why bad news often appear in the FI.

Mentioning no names I have that as fact firsthand.

The farming indo is a great little publication. The bute job
was a small enough story in the end though I thought??

darragh_haven

rangler1 wrote: »

I see darragh has another blip for the beef industry in tomorrows indo....

I was wondering what I did.... started to get indignant for a second. Then realise I'm not the centre of every conversation

Future Farmer

farm14 wrote: »

Which is the most profitable beef systems/ha for farmers. Even though the prices are bad which has the most potential to leave some profit?

How long is a piece of string?

Depends - where you are, land type, cow type, full-time/part-time, AI vs Stock-bull etc.

Money can be made out of great stock but also middling and poor stock too.

The main problem for most beef farmers is numbers - the average beef man/woman has 12 cows.

Midlandsman80

If you had the time there are often some cheap cows with calves on DD, 800-900 mark for the pair, they would be dairy x beef cows, often small and very hungry looking but I would expect to make a lot more out of the pair than I would out of an €800-900 weanling.

Same with some suckler calves, often see them in the west at very good value, if you had the time and flexibility to head off with the van and small trailer at the drop of a hat (as most value will be gone in an hour or 2 off DD) there is value to be got.
I know costs of travel, time etc but if your not at anything else that terribly urgent...

farm14

Midlandsman80 wrote: »

If you had the time there are often some cheap cows with calves on DD, 800-900 mark for the pair, they would be dairy x beef cows, often small and very hungry looking but I would expect to make a lot more out of the pair than I would out of an €800-900 weanling.

Same with some suckler calves, often see them in the west at very good value, if you had the time and flexibility to head off with the van and small trailer at the drop of a hat (as most value will be gone in an hour or 2 off DD) there is value to be got.
I know costs of travel, time etc but if your not at anything else that terribly urgent...

Okay thanks. So what is it you do with cow & calf sell on again yeah?

simx

farm14 wrote: »

Okay thanks. So what is it you do with cow & calf sell on again yeah?

I sometimes buy cow and calves, older cows, cow that will hold nice weight or has some flesh on her, if got very right sell calf immeadiatly if I reckon will leave cow cheap enough and dry cow and fatten otherwise sell weanling at back end and fatten cow, know one lad that buys similar teams but has to be heifer calf and weans calf at end of year, fattens cow and finishes heifer, has it's risks too but generally goes ok, for example I lost a calf to what the vet reckoned was maybe blood poisoning, calf was two months old, would fetch 350 at least in mart, cow and calf cost 1300, vets call out, and calf loss taken from that now and cow will die in debt, can't win em all I suppose

Farmer Pudsey

Midlandsman80 wrote: »

If you had the time there are often some cheap cows with calves on DD, 800-900 mark for the pair, they would be dairy x beef cows, often small and very hungry looking but I would expect to make a lot more out of the pair than I would out of an €800-900 weanling.

Same with some suckler calves, often see them in the west at very good value, if you had the time and flexibility to head off with the van and small trailer at the drop of a hat (as most value will be gone in an hour or 2 off DD) there is value to be got.
I know costs of travel, time etc but if your not at anything else that terribly urgent...

farm14 wrote: »

Okay thanks. So what is it you do with cow & calf sell on again yeah?

I think some of these are value. Watch age of cow. These are often AA or HE cows they will be slow to fatten. You have two options this time of year wean calf over one month get him on ration and wean him. You then put the cow to grass. If you get her to kill 315kgs@ 3/kg by November she will come into 945 euro in this case it is the calf that will amke the money. Disadvantage is the risk of summer mastitis during late July/August.

The other option is leave cow with calf and wean in late October, in this case you would need to inject cow in case she comes in incalf if you do not want to rishk her calfing in the spring. You then overwinter cow and try to get her to kill 370kgs in June next year. If cows are making 3.4ish/kg she comes into 1250 euro. and you have a yearling that is maybe 400kgs. If the cow is in calf and you do not inject you have a calf that will make 350-400 euro in the spring along with the yeraling and finish the cow for september for nmaybe 11-1200 euro.

Runners can be good value and can put 150kgs on between now and Christmas. You can often buy good quality for 400-450 euro. The biggest issue is trying to get them to settle. You need an open shed and watch them in case they get stressed. a good trick is to have a few bucket fed with the first few you buy. Try not to let them out for 2 weeks as they may take off. You need shed fairly calf proof as they will get out anywhere there is a small bit of a gap in the daigonal barriers.

Dickie10

just resarected this thread as im in a quandery as to what beef system to for. currently have 14 cows and limo bull, producing nice cattle, wouldnt have much experience calving cows etc but the cows are limosuin/angus/simmental and all usually calve unaided. buy in about 15 weanlings each november too so have about 30 weanlings, keep these all for finishing so every year have in or around 30 cattle to slaughter. now im wondering to move up the numbers in sheep i have 70 ewes and will be lambing 85 next spring. too me they seem less work and more quick profit with less money inputs compared to sucklers. i use good paddock system for sucklers and they are going well but the downside is a lot of expense in vets fees and a lot of time, weaning, calving ,scours etc. i find with sheep that a good 5-6 weeks in spring and its only routine work after that an odd day during summer. im competly fenced for sheep with the land all in one block, have two pens one in the yard and one down in the farthest fields, also have plenty of lambing facilities in straw bedded sheds and sheep dip and associated handling pens for sheep. i just find the few sucklers that are here are a handy way of getting 15 weanlings a bit cheaper than the mart in november.

the question is would i be better off saving time, labour and expense on getting rid of the sucklers, keeping less cattle and maybe 150 sheep or more. i wouldnt have to make as much silage, put out as much fertiliser etc and be getting if i had 200-220 lambs to sell each year a few quid every week in summer. to be honest i find the quick turn of sheep very appealing as i like them and am set up for them.

Farmer Pudsey

Dickie TBH you have answered your own question. there is no point in running 2-3 system on a small farm. One enterprise is enough. Sheep are always more profitable than drystock unless you are around the ring fulltime. Sheep can be stocked at 5/acre on goodish land on a well run farm. Having time in the spring is the thing. In general it is easy to replace a suckler cow with 7 ewes. That would give you 105 extra ewes.

180-200 ewes producing 1.5 lambs each would leave a nice turnover and profit.

Dickie10

as i got to the end of my shpiel i thought the same thing - i was answering the question! just wondered was it me or was beef farming espically sucklers seriously draining my pocket? yet if i mention to any lads around here about getting into more sheep they say im mad, had too many vet callouts c -sections etc to keep the hunger for cows even if they look grand in their paddocks this time of year, im much happier going through lambs for factory!

so in the opinion of sheep men how many ewes acre could i run on dryish meath land? 50% reseeded last 5 years. plus theres a slatted shed able to accom 85 cattle, what could this be used for, with fewer cattle? should i just buy 20 weanlings each year instead of cows,