Logging a Dead Horse

Itziger

Finally bit the log bullet. Hopefully the title remains brilliantly witty rather than prophetic.

49 year old male, 6 years a runnin', 5 Full marathons and 6 or 7 Half M.s done. Best times as follows:

10k - 37.07 (2014)
Half - 1.24.02 (2014)
Full - 3.09.06 (2013)

A blind baby could probably figure out that I'm hoping for a sub 3 some day soonish. And you wouldn't want to be much more advanced to figure out that my 10k time is more impressive than my Marathon time. Suggesting that the old favourite 'endurance' is my weak point.

So, first day of Jack Daniels 18 week 2Q 56-70 miles plan done (just!).
If the rest of the Q sessions feel this tough I'll 'walk' the sub 3 in Frankfurt. Whether that walk will be figurative or literal, well, time will tell. I did manage to complete and hit the times of today's workout. One of the things that threw me a little was the conversion to miles; fock they're long!

Q1 1E+6M+1E+6M+2E.

I found I was having to work a bit to keep the M miles on target (6:45) . Anyhooo, will try to be a good boy and keep up the log and, more importantly, the plan.

Finnt

Best of luck with it will be following with great interest!!

ThebitterLemon

Another auld lad for me to keep an eye on, great stuff

Best of luck with it, I'll be following with my one good eye!

TbL

Pacing Mule

Love the title !!

Itziger

Pacing Mule wrote: »

Love the title !!

It came to me around the 10th of the 12 MP miles this morning.

It beats the Angela Merkel fantasy I had deep in the last 'fast' mile!

Murph_D

Definitely log title of the year alright!

Can you explain that Q formula for those of us not familiar with the plan?

Ososlo

Murph_D wrote: »

Definitely log title of the year alright!

Can you explain that Q formula for those of us not familiar with the plan?

and explain the Merkel thing too while you're at it:D

Arthur Beesley

Perverted title. Animal necrophilia is no laughing matter.

Itziger

Murph_D wrote: »

Definitely log title of the year alright!

Can you explain that Q formula for those of us not familiar with the plan?

Well Murph, there are those on Boards a little more familiar with the whole concept than me, but my understanding of it is that the Q = Quality. In this plan you do 2Q days a week. The rest you make up the weekly total with steady or easy runs, or even steady easy runs.

The Q1 is typically the longest run and the Q2 is a bit more mixture of paces, so for example the Q2 run of this first week is: 8E + 3T (threshold)/3 min rest+2T +2E = 15 miles

He also includes some I (Interval) and R (Rep) pace stuff. Example from week 2: 4E+5 x (1k I w 3 min jog rec) + 4x (400R w/400 jog rec) +2E. How the fook I'm going to remember all of that while I'm doing it is anyone's guess. In the book there are tables where you can establish your paces fairly accurately.

Itziger

Ososlo wrote: »

and explain the Merkel thing too while you're at it:D

Ah now, the Merkel thing was probably due to dehydration, like Christy Moore when he was coming off the drink and he seeing Alice Glenn in the jacuzzi. 25 k, I mean 16 miles, without water on a warm day.

ThebitterLemon

Alice Glenn, FFS man you're showing your age, it all Little Mix and stuff like that now

TbL

Murph_D

Thanks Itziger. Those "double" sessions seem to be the in thing on boards this year, have seen a few references to the likes of 5x1k followed by 4x400 etc. Sounds like fun but you're right, hard to remember. Can be programmed into the Garmin I guess.

The 2Q principle is similar to the plan I'm following myself: Weds session, Sunday LR, everything else easy.

Sounds good. Great times, good luck with the sub-3 if you decide to go for it (I notice you haven't quite laid your cards on the table).

fat to ripped

Best of luck with it.

Itziger

Murph_D wrote: »

Thanks Itziger. Those "double" sessions seem to be the in thing on boards this year, have seen a few references to the likes of 5x1k followed by 4x400 etc. Sounds like fun but you're right, hard to remember. Can be programmed into the Garmin I guess.

The 2Q principle is similar to the plan I'm following myself: Weds session, Sunday LR, everything else easy.

Sounds good. Great times, good luck with the sub-3 if you decide to go for it (I notice you haven't quite laid your cards on the table).

Ah no, for once I'm coming down from the comfortable fence I've been on for ages. Unless things go pear shaped in training, sub 3 is the aim.

Itziger

Question here for the Daniels people. If no-one replies in 24 hours, I'll post it in the Random Questions thread.

In the 2Q a week plan, it states that the rest of the miles should be done at E pace spread through the week. But, there's E pace and there's E pace, right? I mean since my Q1 on Sunday I've done 2 runs. Monday was E (but recovery E) of 8 miles. Though I didn't have a watch I'm guessing it was about 8 minute pace. Today I felt better and the run was more Steady E!!

So, is this ok then. Some of the E days at recovery pace (let's say 8 or 8:20, 1 or 2 at standard or genuine E, let's say 7.40, and 1 or 2 at steady E, let's say 7.10. Does that make any sense? Advice gratefully accepted.

Murph_D

This might be of interest (second point, para 5). Sounds complicated to me!

yaboya1

I would guess that going by HR for your easy runs might be good idea, as like you say some days you will find a certain pace more stressful than others. Running at around 70-75% of your HRMax should mean that all these runs should feel easy regardless of the pace. Only my opinion though as I've never followed a Daniels plan.

Itziger

Cool folks, thanks. I very, very rarely wear a HRM but I see where you're coming from on effort.

Murph, it's not as complicated as all that. I'm beginning to get my head around it. One of the challenges is finding routes where you can fit in (for example) 8E+3T/w3mins rest+2T+2E or whatever is called for this week.

I'm trying to figure out where I need to be to avoid roads and traffic lights while at the same time not finding yourself 6 miles from home with 2 easy miles of the session left!

Itziger

Well the midweek Q session done. Shoot, that's a tough one to do midweek. I'm hoping I can keep this show on the road through the Summer.

Happy enough in the end. Instead of 8E miles I did 7 and then hit the T miles. I was hoping to do these around 6.22 pace but they turned out faster. They mostly had a slight downhill and maybe the T pace was a bit conservative; I'll sit down and think about that soon. The first 3 were 6:19, 6.07 and 6.01. That 3rd one obviously too fast. Then I took my 3 min rest (Thank you Mr Daniels) and headed into miles 4 and 5 at T: these came in at 6.07 and 6.20

The last 2 and a bit E miles were nice and slow (No $hit!).

It's no biggie doing 7 instead of 8 E miles in that session, right? I now have 2 days of the week left and only 4 miles to do!! I might take a day off and do a 6 miler on Saturday.

Itziger

First full week of Daniels' done!

Ended up doing 61 miles as opposed to the prescribed 56. 6 days of running, no doubles.

Will do the Q1 tomorrow as planned but then will juggle a bit to fit in a Half next Sunday. This is why I started the plan one week early. A bit naughty I know, but hopefully no damage done.

Itziger

Did the planned Q session today. Went ok. It was as follows: 2E+3T+1hour easy+1T+1E.

I spent almost the whole E hour thinking about the upcoming faster mile! Managed to keep the pace as planned and wore a HRM but my Garmin Connect doesn't display charts anymore

The HR was 162 or so during the faster miles and 135 or so for the easy miles. 'Boya, does that make sense??

Itziger

Well, I decided to build in a week break from the Daniels plan to do this Half that I had in mind for a while. I was quite happy with the outcome - a 90 sec pb for a respectable 1.22.31 which suggests I should go for the sub 3.

Up to now the Half times were very close to predicted 3.00 but this one says that I should be capable of the holy grail.

No marathon, at least to my knowledge, was ever run on paper though.

Murph_D

Nice going. Where was the Half?

Itziger

Murph_D wrote: »

Nice going. Where was the Half?

Small German city called Trier. I live in Luxembourg so it was nice and near! I've said it before, but anyone looking for a fast half, look no further than the Route du Vin last Sunday in September. In Remich, on the Lux/German border.

This one I did yesterday was flat too mind, just not the same quality of field. I was 24th!

Itziger

Been in the dry dock (if you don't count the beer and wine) since Sunday's race. Maybe it is one of the problems for us old fellas. Carrying a couple of niggles that I wanted to give time to clear up. Lower abdominal thingy (pubalgia?) just about feeling ok now and left calf/achilles on the mend as well. Got in 4 miles easy this morning and hopefully that's the show back on the road. Fortunately this weekend's Q long run is not too demanding.

belcarra

Just catching this log now Itzy - Best of luck with it, it's been a while coming!!
Debating about whether to do Frankfurt or Dublin at the moment...If I was flying it (at the moment coming back from injury and 10k is a bit of a struggle!) I'd consider going for Frankfurt but Dublin is the more likely scenario.

Itziger

belcarra wrote: »

Just catching this log now Itzy - Best of luck with it, it's been a while coming!!
Debating about whether to do Frankfurt or Dublin at the moment...If I was flying it (at the moment coming back from injury and 10k is a bit of a struggle!) I'd consider going for Frankfurt but Dublin is the more likely scenario.

Well I eventually found your Dusseldorf result and it certainly sounded like something went awry there. Sorry to see that. Are you still on the comeback trail from that or was it posterior?

Yeah, I can understand that if you weren't 100% ready it would make sense to stay in Dublin. Still though, we'll see. Think of the beer in Dirty Ol' Frankfurt.

As for the Log, it had been a while coming. I decided for my first sub 3 effort and first Daniels plan that a log might keep me focused.

Itziger

Nursing a groin/pubic strain at the moment. Was able to do the steady 16 miler yesterday but jaysus, the beginning of the rec run this morning was brutal. I had to 'hold' and even massage a little the affected area. Fortunately there were no witnesses to this.

Am typing this with a wine cooler yoke down the shorts. Mrs Itzy says she'll stick to red wine for the foreseeable future.

Itziger

Flippin 'ell, those midweek Q sessions are tough on the body.

Delighted to get this one done without hiccups.

http://connect.garmin.com/activity/537344461

Other than the initial 6E being a shade under 5.5E, the workout was done as Sir Daniels prescribes. How a certain Boards member can go rock climbing for 90 minutes after one of these runs is completely beyond me. Here I am feeling 50% smug, 50% sorry for myself.

Finnt

I read the same log, he's an animal!

Itziger

Going on a long drive tomorrow and don't know what to expect where we're going so decided to squeeze this weekend's Q session in today. I knew it was going to be a tough as I was feeling tired already at the start.

The workout was supposed to be 2E+8M+1E+3M+2E. I tweaked it a little... I know, I know! Instead of the 1E+3M part I did 2E+2M.

For the initial M miles I struggled to get to the pace and when I eventually did I overcompensated a bit but overall I'm happy I did it. Of course, what do I do on the last of the M miles but 6:18 instead of 6:45! Would've been better off doing the initial plan. Next week's Q2 is one of the 'skip this if you like' ones and I just might do that, depending on the roads and surroundings of the village we're staying in.

Itziger

Forgive me Father (Daniels) for I have sinned.

9 days, nine days without a run and no excuse for it. My longest ever break without an injury to explain it. I just couldn't be arsed running in rural France for the holidays. Got back yesterday and tried to do the Daniels Q1 session this morning.

Brutal. The heat was fairly tough alright and I stupidly hadn't brought any water.

Again I ended up having to compromise a bit. Supposed to be 1E+2x(2T and 2 mins rest)+60 mins E +2T+1E.

Just about managed the first part, then the hour Easy was awful. I never felt easy at all and I was going nice and slow. I thought, Christ, there's no way I'll be able to do the last 2 miles at T pace and I was nearly going to abort it when I had what I think was a good idea; I decided to make the 2 miles M pace instead. It would still mean a fairly major increase in effort and at this stage I was gasping for a drink. So that's what I did, the last 2 important miles I did at M instead of T and I'm glad I did. Walked the 2k home after it. Fantasising about recovery bars, water and choco milk on the walk (stagger) home.

Itziger

Since my naughty, zero week, I have managed to get things back on track. A rec run of 10k, followed by an easy 10 miler left me in ok shape. This morning I did the 8E+6x1k@I pace ( I used my 10k pace of 3.42 as a guide) Q2 session. Went well enough. Had a small bottle of water and the pace on the reps, though twas a bit up and down, was good overall. I did 7 and a bit miles of easy to start. Two more E runs this week to bring total to around 63 miles and it will have been a good week. I really do hope the long E sections in the Q workouts are helping, cos they're a pain in the butt to be honest.

Finnt

Is l pace lactate threshold pace?

Itziger

Hi Finnt, He gives a whole table of training paces based on VDOT (I haven't really gone into what that even means!) But you can work it out from your race times. So I've taken a VDOT of 54/55 and the paces are as follows:

M - 6.49 (I aim for 6.45)
T - 6.20
I - 3.41 per km (88 secs for 400)
R - 82 secs for 400

Hope that helps a little. M is marathon, T is Threshold, I is interval and R is reps.

If you are interested, you could send me your times for 10k and Half and I'll give you the corresponding training times Daniels recommends.

yaboya1

Itziger wrote: »

Hi Finnt, He gives a whole table of training paces based on VDOT (I haven't really gone into what that even means!) But you can work it out from your race times. So I've taken a VDOT of 54/55 and the paces are as follows:

M - 6.49 (I aim for 6.45)
T - 6.20
I - 3.41 per km (88 secs for 400)
R - 82 secs for 400

Hope that helps a little. M is marathon, T is Threshold, I is interval and R is reps.

If you are interested, you could send me your times for 10k and Half and I'll give you the corresponding training times Daniels recommends.

You can do it yourself here

Itziger

yaboya1 wrote: »

You can do it yourself here

Shoot!

Who knew? Not me obviously.

However, I think those conversions are very aggressive for the marathon prediction. When I put in my Half time it gives me 2:53 for the full. I'm afraid it would have to be downhill with a tailwind.

Itziger

17 miler done. 27.30 k in 2.11.xx

Never really felt comfortable but began to feel better in second part.

Itziger

After a couple of tough weeks (No miles + 60 miles) and feeling heavy on most of the Easy runs and E sections of runs, I finally felt good today on a 9 miler. It might have helped that Sunday was relatively easy, 17 miles, Monday Easy 6, Tuesday Rest......

Fun should start up again tomorrow in any case. This awaits: 5E+3T w2mins rest+2x(2T w1 min. rest)+2E

Then what should be a good test on Sunday. The most M miles I'll ever have attempted in a session. 1E+8m+1E+6M+1E

Itziger

Ok, tough but done!!

See attached the 'T' sections. I stuck to the before (40 mins E) and after (2 miles E) this workout. I have to be honest and say the recovery was probably a bit 'generous'. The first rest was nearer 3 than 2 minutes and the rest between the 2x2t part was more 90 seconds than 60.

http://connect.garmin.com/activity/553650672
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/553650661
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/553650653

Itziger

Well, the 8+6 at MP was done this morning. I found it tough (again) to get up to MP but eventually did and the workout went well enough. Garmin screwed up on the 6 mile bit but on average pace for those miles the thing balances out.

http://connect.garmin.com/activity/555786027

I have the laps set as 1.62k to slightly counteract the classic Garmin under read!

Itziger

Q2 session done. Hit the target except for last mile at T pace. But to have got this challenging midweek session done almost as prescribed is pleasing.

3E+3T+2T+2T+1T+2E. The first bit should be 4E but i was conscious of time. Didn't cheat on rec time between the T efforts, 3 mins, 2, 2.

All T miles as follows: 6:20, 6:19, 6:16, 6:18, 6:25, 6:12 (why???), 6:23 and 6:31

Itziger

So, after a tough Q2 on Wednesday I find I have 3 easy days till next Q on Sunday. 6 miles yesterday, 10 today and 8 planned for tomorrow to make up the 70 total for the week which is more or less my max. Today's 10 felt better, no watch, no nothing.

Next week will be a bit screwed up as I'm heading home on Tuesday and the day is taken up with bus/plane/bus and same coming back on Friday. I'll manage a sneaky little 5 mile race though in Cork on Wednesday; looking forward to that.

Itziger

Decent enough Q session this morning. Did think it sounded a little strange: 12E+3T+1E; here it is http://connect.garmin.com/activity/561504104

I was half tempted to change it around but I'm glad I didn't. Happy that the T miles were all on and a bit under the target (6.17, 6.15, 6.16) and in a way I'm most happy with the final E mile. On other tough Q sessions the last E mile or two were recovery/dead man shuffle pace of around 10 min/mile. This one was actually a tiny bit faster than the first mile of the morning! 8:10 as opposed to 8:19.

Also kinda pleased that the legs could handle this fairly comfortably after the 70 mile week.

Itziger

Got a visit to the homeland in during the week and managed a race and all. 5 mile Navy race in Haulbowline. Windy and a bit hilly but fair course all the same. Ducked under 30 minutes with a 29.50 (official) and then got a few 10 milers in the following days.

18 this morning, relatively steady: 4.45 km average I believe. At times felt tough, both mentally and physically. Looking forward, as they say, to the midweek Q session of 2E+12M+2E.

Itziger

Chuffed with today's Q session. 12 miles at MP.

http://connect.garmin.com/activity/569530086

A tiny bit fast but mostly felt right. Not Multiply by 2 and add 2 miles right but heading in that direction at least.

Warm up was 2k.

Itziger

9 weeks out Q1 session done. Went well, although it felt a little harder than Wednesday's 12m workout.

Happy that I managed the T mile after 14 previous! The run was 3E+6M+1E+4M+1T+2E (I added an E mile at the end, the book says 1E)

Garmin continues to act up a bit. Lucky I know the km and even mile markers at this stage. If I have to go cheap stopwatch I'd be ok.

Heading into a couple of 70 mile weeks now. Hope work and family stay kind!

Itziger

Phew! Q2 session done for this week. 5E+4x(2T w 2 min rest) + 2E.

Don't know if I'm a tiny bit run down or what, but it was tough. I really thought early on that I wouldn't hit the paces. Very happy that I stuck at it. T pace is 6.20 and the miles went something like

6.25
6.20
6.17
6.18
6.11
6.20
6.20
6.25

First and last the slowest, tiny bit disappointed with last but I genuinely felt at one stage that I was going to have to "tweak" the workout and make the last two M pace or some such so delighted that I could keep it on target. Tired as hell now though.This whole week is feeling a bit rough. I'll keep my head down and stay at it and if things don't pick up soon I might take a full Easy week and see what happens.

Itziger

So, just after the first 70 mile week, only finished yesterday evening with a 9 miler, it was time for another Q1. 8E+8M+1E

Was I stupid or smart to do the last M mile at T pace instead? In fact slightly faster than T. Like a number of naughty things it felt kinda good tbh. Once it doesn't lead to injury or over fatigue, should be ok.

http://connect.garmin.com/activity/579111276

Itziger

Really happy with this evening's Q2 session.

Prescribed: 8E+6x1k @ I pace (10k for me)+2E
ACTUAL: 7E and the rest as dictated above.

Started the E miles a bit fast and kept it up for 5 miles, then decided to cool the burners or I wouldn't be able to do the reps. The reps were to be done in 3.40/3.42 and the y came in at 3.39, 3.33, 3.40, 3.40, 3.37 and 3.37. While they didn't exactly feel easy (!!), I was happy with time and almost more so the fact that I did them by feel, only checking Garmin after they were completed. The rep distance was 1.01k.

Almost forgot, 3 min rec jog between reps and I actually managed to do that as opposed to bending over, hands on knees for a bit and walking for another bit. Maybe the fact that I'm in bed at 9.23 points to a tough enough workout!

Itziger

First 20 miler of this programme. It had been a while since I'd done one of them!

I kept it steady as opposed to Easy and in the end it felt good, a small rough patch after 14 or 15 miles but better by the end.

2:32:xx - a little water, no gels.

Still a little concerned that longest run is 20 miles and I'm also wondering if I should attempt one or two more than 12 at MP. Decisions, decisions.