€258k salary for HSE manager in Limerick

periodictable

Clare Fm reporting anger at €258k salary for a manager working in a Limerick hospital.

http://clare.fm/news/shock-salary-revelations-new-hse-midwest-senior-manager

The interesting part is that the manager was hired through a management consultancy-I'm guessing that's a for profit agency that sources personnel?-but had the manager been hired directly by the HSE then the salary would have been €116k.
So why such a discrepancy? And who decided to go this route of picking this way to hire someone?
I think the union response is somewhat disingenuous, given the massive salaries/perks the top union people earn.

pilate 1

perhaps the soon to depart ceo in limerick could throw some light on the subject?

periodictable

pilate 1 wrote: »

perhaps the soon to depart ceo in limerick could throw some light on the subject?

I wouldn't hold my breath

Figerty

periodictable wrote: »

Clare Fm reporting anger at €258k salary for a manager working in a Limerick hospital.

http://clare.fm/news/shock-salary-revelations-new-hse-midwest-senior-manager

The interesting part is that the manager was hired through a management consultancy-I'm guessing that's a for profit agency that sources personnel?-but had the manager been hired directly by the HSE then the salary would have been €116k.
So why such a discrepancy? And who decided to go this route of picking this way to hire someone?
I think the union response is somewhat disingenuous, given the massive salaries/perks the top union people earn.

I think, and I could be wrong, that the heads of the unions have the salary at an equivalent level of that of a senior civil servant.
No where near 258K I would imagine.

pilate 1

periodictable wrote: »

I wouldn't hold my breath

wonder do cork co co use an outside recruitment firm when making certain appointments?

MadamX

Disgusting waste of taxpayers money! And embargo?! What embargo?! Oh, apparently that only applies to front line understaffed areas ....

Clareman

It amazes me how Irish people in the last few years have become fascinated with people's salary, it seems that anything over 100k now is worth a lynching. A person's salary isn't up to the person who receives it, it's a combination of market forces and a person's worth. It mightn't be a popular stance, but I'd much prefer to have someone earning 258k a year and doing a proper job of running the place that having someone on 25k and the place in tatters, lets judge the person on their performance not their salary.

Also, as disgusting as it may seem, 258k isn't the highest salary I've come across, I personally know people earning more that that in far less important roles.

Lady Chatterton

Clareman wrote: »

It amazes me how Irish people in the last few years have become fascinated with people's salary, it seems that anything over 100k now is worth a lynching. A person's salary isn't up to the person who receives it, it's a combination of market forces and a person's worth. It mightn't be a popular stance, but I'd much prefer to have someone earning 258k a year and doing a proper job of running the place that having someone on 25k and the place in tatters, lets judge the person on their performance not their salary.

Also, as disgusting as it may seem, 258k isn't the highest salary I've come across, I personally know people earning more that that in far less important roles.

I think it's a big salary when you consider that President Obama earns €291K

http://www.paywizard.org/main/salary/vip-check/barack-obama

Personally, I've no issue with anyone earning a big salary if they run their organisation well. However, we've seen plenty of high profile cases, like our former financial regulator who didn't provide value for money :mad:

highgiant1985

I'm open to correction here but my understanding is the HSE are paying this company to do the work involved of this position. i.e. its not like a recruitment firm where they've found a candidate and that person has now been hired by the HSE and is a HSE employee.

If I'm wrong then yes this seems high but if I'm correct in the above then I'm not as out raged as some people about this figure. Let me explain.

Its important to remember there are additional costs with hiring an employee which this company have to incur and the HSE do not. This would explain partially why the figure is much higher than the salary advertised.

For example, they may/would have to pay

ER PRSI Contributions
ER Pension Contributions
Holiday Pay
Sick Leave
On top of this the HSE would I imagine have no need to pay redundancy to an employee if they were to not renew this agreement in the future.

Finally the business need to make a margin as well.

Again above on assumption the job has been out sourced. If not then yes the figure seems high.

periodictable

Figerty wrote: »

I think, and I could be wrong, that the heads of the unions have the salary at an equivalent level of that of a senior civil servant.
No where near 258K I would imagine.

But when the average industrial wage is €30k, a six-figure sum is pretty outrageous....echoes of some animals are more equal than others, so beloved of Orwell's pigs.

MadamX

'I'd much prefer to have someone earning 258k a year and doing a proper job of running the place that having someone on 25k and the place in tatters'

I would agree fully however, in the past couple of years, I've seen people brought in who are supposedly going to works wonders only to see them hightailing it within a year or so when they realise the task facing them. But yes of course they've collected the salary they were allegedly worth for the time they've been in post and for some bizarre reason many of them seem to move up the ladder up the HSE. The most important thing that needs to be done is to ask and listen carefully to frontline staff who KNOW the changes that need to be made to save money, time and lives. Ah, but that'd be far to sensible ... sorry, working in our health systems makes one very cynical ...

Johnboy1951

highgiant1985 wrote: »

I'm open to correction here but my understanding is the HSE are paying this company to do the work involved of this position. i.e. its not like a recruitment firm where they've found a candidate and that person has now been hired by the HSE and is a HSE employee.

If I'm wrong then yes this seems high but if I'm correct in the above then I'm not as out raged as some people about this figure. Let me explain.

Its important to remember there are additional costs with hiring an employee which this company have to incur and the HSE do not. This would explain partially why the figure is much higher than the salary advertised.

For example, they may/would have to pay

ER PRSI Contributions
ER Pension Contributions
Holiday Pay
Sick Leave
On top of this the HSE would I imagine have no need to pay redundancy to an employee if they were to not renew this agreement in the future.

Finally the business need to make a margin as well.

Again above on assumption the job has been out sourced. If not then yes the figure seems high.

It is not clear to me if the €258K figure is what it is costing the HSE to fill the position or if that is the salary.

I am inclined to believe it is the total cost to the HSE and the persons salary is probably ~€100K less.

I am also not clear of what a "senior manager" position is in the overall hierarchy.

Clareman

MrsD007 wrote: »

I think it's a big salary when you consider that President Obama earns €291K

http://www.paywizard.org/main/salary/vip-check/barack-obama

Personally, I've no issue with anyone earning a big salary if they run their organisation well. However, we've seen plenty of high profile cases, like our former financial regulator who didn't provide value for money :mad:

The President of America has historically been "under paid", Babe Ruth was known to earn more than the president back in the day.

To get the best you have to pay the best, but in my opinion, because of the shambles of management within the HSE and the over bearing political influence over the running of everything, being a manager of 1 area isn't going to get you anything. The HSE is a complete and utter shambles but that isn't their fault, it's because of the mismanagement down through the years and some of the disgraceful policies that have been put in place and are now in place.

Clareman

periodictable wrote: »

But when the average industrial wage is €30k, a six-figure sum is pretty outrageous....echoes of some animals are more equal than others, so beloved of Orwell's pigs.

Sorry again for being a bit rantey, but you can't compare an average industrial wage to all positions, this person may have been a doctor/consultant/specialist, which means that their education alone would be far in excess of the "average" worker.

It's a bit like comparing private and public sector workers and saying how public sector workers are higher paid, of course they are, they pretty much all have degrees or post grads or specialist education whereas private sector don't.

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup

Clareman wrote: »

It amazes me how Irish people in the last few years have become fascinated with people's salary, it seems that anything over 100k now is worth a lynching.

I presume you work in the public sector yourself with a post like that.

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup

Clareman wrote: »

It's a bit like comparing private and public sector workers and saying how public sector workers are higher paid, of course they are, they pretty much all have degrees or post grads or specialist education whereas private sector don't.

Lol. No need to answer the previous post.

Clareman

I'll answer anyway, nope, private sector for my entire career. I'm amazed how Irish people have in a short few years gone from being fascinated with the price of their house to the salaries of some people.

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup

oh right. i don't think anybody has an issue with big salaries in private sector but I do in the public sector. i agree that you have to pay big to get the best people (like richie boucher in BOI) but i get the sense that a lot of well connected idiots are getting big salaries way above their station. Like Pat Neary.

periodictable

Clareman wrote: »

Sorry again for being a bit rantey, but you can't compare an average industrial wage to all positions, this person may have been a doctor/consultant/specialist, which means that their education alone would be far in excess of the "average" worker.

It's a bit like comparing private and public sector workers and saying how public sector workers are higher paid, of course they are, they pretty much all have degrees or post grads or specialist education whereas private sector don't.

Referring to the union leaders.
No problem with post grads getting well paid. But if it's a consultant, perhaps he's overqualified for the post? Until we know what the post is, we can't be sure.
However I look at Paul Burke, the Limerick consultant who recommended the closing of the Ennis A and E unit...in light of the damning report into Limerick A and E was he suitably qualified for the job? Operating on people is not quite the same thing as running an emergency unit.

UserNo1

Nothing new government continue with there broken promises. Yes we are the fools that voted them in.



I wish i was born in France. At least they stand up for themselves and get out and strike. But we Irish stay warm beside the fire posting on boards about politics thats never ever going to make a difference.

FAILSAFE 00

Clareman wrote: »

I'll answer anyway, nope, private sector for my entire career. I'm amazed how Irish people have in a short few years gone from being fascinated with the price of their house to the salaries of some people.

When it comes to people being fascinated about salaries I blame the press for constantly going on about salaries over the last few years. Getting the public all worked up so they can sell more newspapers.

When the press throw out numbers for someone's salary they never mention that 50% of the salary is instantly gone in tax. Every article you read will never talk about take home pay.

jbkenn

Google is your friend :-)

Sounds like a one man band.
From the Companies Registration Office
STARLINE MANAGEMENT CONSULTING LIMITED
Condonstown South
Watergrass Hill
Co. Cork
Registered 31/01/2013
I would say just in time to get the contract

Previous history from LinkedIn
Liam Casey
Managing Director at Starline Management Consulting Limited
Facilities Services.

Managing Director
Starline Management Consulting Limited
January 2013 – Present (1 year 6 months)

Director
Liam Casey FM Consulting
October 2012 – January 2013 (4 months)Cork
Offering FM consultancy services to assist with Tendor evaluation, management systems, contract review, market availability/assessement of alternative contractual opportunities and bundling of service options.

Facility Services Director, Pharmaceutical
Noonan
June 1997 – September 2012 (15 years 4 months)Nationwide Life Sciences speciality

Commercial Manager/Assistant GM
Trabolgan
1990 – 1997 (7 years)

It would appear Mr. Casey's expertise is in the area of Facilities Management, what used to be known as "sweeping the floor and cleaning the jacks"

Still I am sure he is worth every penny, and, I am also sure he ain't the only one.

pilate 1

jbkenn wrote: »

Google is your friend :-)

Sounds like a one man band.
From the Companies Registration Office
STARLINE MANAGEMENT CONSULTING LIMITED
Condonstown South
Watergrass Hill
Co. Cork
Registered 31/01/2013
I would say just in time to get the contract

Previous history from LinkedIn
Liam Casey
Managing Director at Starline Management Consulting Limited
Facilities Services.

Managing Director
Starline Management Consulting Limited
January 2013 – Present (1 year 6 months)

Director
Liam Casey FM Consulting
October 2012 – January 2013 (4 months)Cork
Offering FM consultancy services to assist with Tendor evaluation, management systems, contract review, market availability/assessement of alternative contractual opportunities and bundling of service options.

Facility Services Director, Pharmaceutical
Noonan
June 1997 – September 2012 (15 years 4 months)Nationwide Life Sciences speciality

Commercial Manager/Assistant GM
Trabolgan
1990 – 1997 (7 years)

It would appear Mr. Casey's expertise is in the area of Facilities Management, what used to be known as "sweeping the floor and cleaning the jacks"

Still I am sure he is worth every penny, and, I am also sure he ain't the only one.

the nail on the head!

slegs

periodictable wrote: »

But when the average industrial wage is €30k, a six-figure sum is pretty outrageous....echoes of some animals are more equal than others, so beloved of Orwell's pigs.

There are a lot of people of below average ability dragging down the average to 30k.

A lot of people in the average group seem to confuse average and maximum.

Of course people of high ability should get paid a lot more than below average ability people to do jobs that are very important and require skills that are rare.

A six figure sum is not outrageous by any means if the role warrants it.

ulinbac

periodictable wrote: »

But when the average industrial wage is €30k, a six-figure sum is pretty outrageous....echoes of some animals are more equal than others, so beloved of Orwell's pigs.

Actually according to the cso from 2012 the avg. Industrial wage was €41,800. Six figures is not outrageous, so stop talking nonsense.

If you don't like your salary try to improve your skills and education. Don't blame others for getting decemt salaries or the government. You are responsible for you not the government.

I'm 26 and earn over twice the avg. Salary cause I kept driving on. Annoys me so much when people blame the govt. For their problems or get annoyed at others doing well. There are no limitations to what anyone of us can earn, its all about drive, ambition and stop complaining!!

periodictable

ulinbac wrote: »

I'm 26 and earn over twice the avg. Salary cause I kept driving on. Annoys me so much when people blame the govt. For their problems or get annoyed at others doing well. There are no limitations to what anyone of us can earn, its all about drive, ambition and stop complaining!!

Your education didn't teach you not to make assumptions, especially about people about whom you know nothing.

ulinbac

periodictable wrote: »

Your education didn't teach you not to make assumptions, especially about people about whom you know nothing.

You are being somewhat hypocritical considering you are begrudging/giving out about a person earning over €100k? If you don't like it then do something about it. If you want to be average, then I have no problem with that. If you want to earn above the industrial age then do what it takes to achieve this.

Also, it wasn't just education that got me here. At 19 I started my own business to pay for my college and have been working since 14. I don't making assumptions about others but what business has taught me is that one needs to work hard, network and take opportunities even if they look like nothing will come from them. Please don't respond with the standard how life can be so hard and full of tragedy. Its the same for all of us!!!

What assumptions am I making? That Irish people in general love to moan and complain about people doing well? It's true. We are entitled to nothing and are a nation of begrudgers at times. You work for what you get and its not up to any government to save us.

pilate 1

ulinbac wrote: »

You are being somewhat hypocritical considering you are begrudging/giving out about a person earning over €100k? If you don't like it then do something about it. If you want to be average, then I have no problem with that. If you want to earn above the industrial age then do what it takes to achieve this.

Also, it wasn't just education that got me here. At 19 I started my own business to pay for my college and have been working since 14. I don't making assumptions about others but what business has taught me is that one needs to work hard, network and take opportunities even if they look like nothing will come from them. Please don't respond with the standard how life can be so hard and full of tragedy. Its the same for all of us!!!

What assumptions am I making? That Irish people in general love to moan and complain about people doing well? It's true. We are entitled to nothing and are a nation of begrudgers at times. You work for what you get and its not up to any government to save us.

yup! networking it is then. i think that was possibly the point inferred in the op.

periodictable

I'm not complaining about what other people earn.
In straightened times I'm wondering how €116k can suddenly become €258k, for the same job, and as a tax payer I demand that the state spend wisely.

Here's my philosophy “Too many people have been given to understand that if they have a problem, it's the government's job to cope with it. 'I have a problem, I'll get a grant.' 'I'm homeless, the government must house me.' They're casting their problem on society. And, you know, there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first. It's our duty to look after ourselves and then, also to look after our neighbor. People have got the entitlements too much in mind, without the obligations. There's no such thing as entitlement, unless someone has first met an obligation.” Margaret Thatcher

ulinbac

pilate 1 wrote: »

yup! networking it is then. i think that was possibly the point inferred in the op.

Thats all you took from the post? Wow!!

You didn't take into account hard work, sacrifice and long hours worked? This is how you meet people to network.

It's a pity really...

ulinbac

periodictable wrote: »

I'm not complaining about what other people earn.
In straightened times I'm wondering how €116k can suddenly become €258k, for the same job, and as a tax payer I demand that the state spend wisely.

Here's my philosophy “Too many people have been given to understand that if they have a problem, it's the government's job to cope with it. 'I have a problem, I'll get a grant.' 'I'm homeless, the government must house me.' They're casting their problem on society. And, you know, there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first. It's our duty to look after ourselves and then, also to look after our neighbor. People have got the entitlements too much in mind, without the obligations. There's no such thing as entitlement, unless someone has first met an obligation.” Margaret Thatcher

if you demand it, then how have you brought it to the governments attention?

Are you agreeing with that quote from Thatcher? I do!

pilate 1

ulinbac wrote: »

Thats all you took from the post? Wow!!

You didn't take into account hard work, sacrifice and long hours worked? This is how you meet people to network.

It's a pity really...

sorry had a look again and forgot sanctimonious drivel and bad grammer:p

ulinbac

pilate 1 wrote: »

sorry had a look again and forgot sanctimonious drivel and bad grammer:p

Grammar isn't always perfect but what is drivel?

Nobody gets to top on their own. Even Mark Zucherberg who owns facebook had to receice funding through going to events, dinners etc. That is also a form of networking.

How many people have been elected to govt. Because somebody threw them a vote as they new them or were mates with someone?

pilate 1

ulinbac wrote: »

Grammar isn't always perfect but what is drivel?

Nobody gets to top on their own. Even Mark Zucherberg who owns facebook had to receice funding through going to events, dinners etc. That is also a form of networking.

How many people have been elected to govt. Because somebody threw them a vote as they new them or were mates with someone?

the above is drivel, and has no relevance to anything, particularly the original post

Conar

pilate 1 wrote: »

the above is drivel, and has no relevance to anything, particularly the original post

To be fair to him or her they gave an opinion and you've been more interested in their grammar than the content of the post. Also you don't appear to believe in the use of capital letters which is strange for a grammar nazi.

I'd echo previous statements in that it seems overly common to obsess on higher salaries these days, but also on how high people's social welfare payments are.
So many socialists that think that everyone's salary should be capped at the level they have managed to reach.... Not saying that's what's being advocated here.

When public sector salaries are mentioned they include employer contributions etc. Never in my life in the private sector have I ever considered my companies pension contributions as part of my salary, nor health insurance payments or any other extras.

Pointless arguing about a figure with no real details of how it's broken down.

Lady Chatterton

No more references to spelling or grammar please.

Lady Chatterton

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

It is not clear to me if the €258K figure is what it is costing the HSE to fill the position or if that is the salary.

I am inclined to believe it is the total cost to the HSE and the persons salary is probably ~€100K less.

I am also not clear of what a "senior manager" position is in the overall hierarchy.

I think the HSE could learn a huge amount about running an efficient and effective service from The Clare Crusaders Clinic.

Clare Crusaders provide free speech therapy, occupational therapy, physiotherapy and play therapy to over 350 children with special needs in Clare.

The clinic is run on a budget of €250,000 and receives no state assistance. One major difference between the HSE run services and Clare Crusaders is the latter can operate without layers of unnecessary administration.

If I was advising the HSE, I'd be recommending that they headhunt Clare Crusaders' Manager.

Clareman

Very good point Mrs. D, Clare Crusaders are a great example of how things can be done right when the right people are involved.

If I was to be in charge of the HSE I would be getting managers from outside of medical fields involved, just because you are a good doctor doesn't make you a good administrator.

Lady Chatterton

Clareman wrote: »

If I was to be in charge of the HSE I would be getting managers from outside of medical fields involved, just because you are a good doctor doesn't make you a good administrator.

I completely agree with you.

There was great expectation when Dr. Rory O'Hanlon (FF) and Dr. James Reilly (FG) were made Health Ministers but they both performed/continue to perform very poorly. They're proof that being doctor and having an understanding of medical issues isn't enough on it's own.

I'm too young to remember Dr. Noel Browne but I recall I reading about him at school, there was a good man and decent Health Minister at a time when money was tight in the country. Every pregnant woman in this country has access to free maternity care due to his efforts.

periodictable

ulinbac wrote: »

Are you agreeing with that quote from Thatcher? I do!

Have you read the post? You seem to have tremendous difficulty understanding what I said, which was that the Thatcher quotation was my philosophy!!!
Do I agree? The answer is clear..but for some reason not to you.
Look before you leap.
And to recap, let me speak to you as I would to a 4 year old:
Why is someone paid €142k more than if the HSE directly employed him?

pilate 1

periodictable wrote: »

Have you read the post? You seem to have tremendous difficulty understanding what I said, which was that the Thatcher quotation was my philosophy!!!
Do I agree? The answer is clear..but for some reason not to you.
Look before you leap.
And to recap, let me speak to you as I would to a 4 year old:
Why is someone paid €142k more than if the HSE directly employed him?

at last we are back to the original post and not drivel! can we start again folks pls? as one who has been banned for troling before(properly) can we stay on topic?

Johnboy1951

periodictable wrote: »

...

Why is someone paid €142k more than if the HSE directly employed him?

Has that been established?

Has it been established that this is much more costly on the HSE than if they employed him directly?