British & Irish Cup 2014-2015

The Lost Sheep

The Scottish sides have pulled out of next seasons competition following changes to the competition’s structure which would see six fixtures being played before Christmas. The 12 English championship sides, the top 4 welsh premiership sides and the 4 provincial A sides will play in 5 groups of 4 before the knock out stages.
The group stages begin on October 11th and will conclude on December 6th and the quarter finals will be played January 24th with the semi finals which will be played the weekend of March 15th while the final will take place on the weekend of April 3/4/5, 2015

http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/latest-breaking-news/16918/scots-pull-out-of-bi-cup/

CIARAN_BOYLE

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

The Scottish sides have pulled out of next seasons competition following changes to the competition’s structure which would see six fixtures being played before Christmas. The 12 English championship sides, the top 4 welsh premiership sides and the 4 provincial A sides will play in 5 groups of 4 before the knock out stages.
The group stages begin on October 11th and will conclude on December 6th and the quarter finals will be played January 24th with the semi finals which will be played the weekend of March 15th while the final will take place on the weekend of April 3/4/5, 2015

http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/latest-breaking-news/16918/scots-pull-out-of-bi-cup/

I'm not really hapy the breaking the link with European weekends myself. Also disappointed with the continued failure to find a naming sponsor.

The Lost Sheep

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

I'm not really happy the breaking the link with European weekends myself. Also disappointed with the continued failure to find a naming sponsor.

Agree on both counts. Tie in with European weekends was very good as gave extended squad something to play on those weekends and no sponsor is still not great as harder to promote without a sponsor

CatFromHue

Would the English and Welsh teams be their full strength teams does anyone know?

phog

I thought linking it with the H/cup was a great idea from an Irish pov as the extended squads got a few games.

Finding a sponsor was always going to be difficult for such a minor tournament, just look at the Celtic League as an example how difficult it is to sell.

You'd have to wonder who proposed the changes to the fuxtures and why it was supported.

thomond2006

Pairing the fixtures with Europe could be a reason that it struggled to get a sponsor. The matches get overshadowed.

The Lost Sheep

CatFromHue wrote: »

Would the English and Welsh teams be their full strength teams does anyone know?

Maybe with the English/Welsh sides. English/Welsh usually did but it depended on how sides were doing in principality premiership/championship etc how they were bothered in B&I.

phog wrote: »

I thought linking it with the H/cup was a great idea from an Irish pov as the extended squads got a few games.

Finding a sponsor was always going to be difficult for such a minor tournament, just look at the Celtic League as an example how difficult it is to sell.

You'd have to wonder who proposed the changes to the fuxtures and why it was supported.

Scots couldn't fit it in their season so
Linking with HEC weekends wasnt good for profile of competition as it was over shadowed. the extended squads of provinces will still get games in the competition no matter when its played.
Changes to fixtures were made AFAIK to give the competition its own window in the season so as it receive some more publicity which is impossible when played on the weekends it has been played the past few seasons

CIARAN_BOYLE

thomond2006 wrote: »

Pairing the fixtures with Europe could be a reason that it struggled to get a sponsor. The matches get overshadowed.

True but it also increases the calibre of player involved from the provinces

CatFromHue

I suppose the provinces only make up 20% of the teams.

The Lost Sheep

Pools have been drawn
Pool 1: London Scottish, Wales 2, Bristol Rugby, Connacht
Pool 2: Rotherham Titans, Leeds Carnegie, Ulster Ravens, Wales 4
Pool 3: Worcester Warriors, Nottingham Rugby, Moseley, Munster 'A'
Pool 4: Wales 1, Cornish Pirates, Doncaster Knights, Bedford Blues
Pool 5: Leinster 'A', Plymouth Albion, Wales 3, Jersey RFC

Buer

Mirrors the ECC; not a bad pool for Leinster, tough pools for Ulster and Munster.

The Lost Sheep

Buer wrote: »

Mirrors the ECC; not a bad pool for Leinster, tough pools for Ulster and Munster.

And Connachts pool is very tough as well.

Digifriendly

AFAIK there were no AIL fixtures when HEC/British & Irish Cup weekends were on. So if these latest fixtures clash with AIL games then some of the AIL teams will be without important players.

The Lost Sheep

Digifriendly wrote: »

AFAIK there were no AIL fixtures when HEC/British & Irish Cup weekends were on. So if these latest fixtures clash with AIL games then some of the AIL teams will be without important players.

There was AIL fixtures on some HEC/B&IC weekends. Not all but 2 maybe 3 weekends last season where there was HEC/B&IC on same weekend as AIL

Digifriendly

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

There was AIL fixtures on some HEC/B&IC weekends. Not all but 2 maybe 3 weekends last season where there was HEC/B&IC on same weekend as AIL

Thanks for that. I think these rejigged fixtures will probably impact more AIL weekends.

The Lost Sheep

The playoff games to decide the Welsh representatives in this competition have been played the last few weeks and the Welsh representatives will be decided this weekend.
Each of the 4 pro12 regions have been holding games between their premiership sides to decide who competes in this seasons B&I Cup.
Cross Keys beat Ebbw Vale 16-13 and will now face Newport, who beat Bedwas 41-25, to decide who will be in group 4 with Cornish Pirates, Bedford and Doncaster

Llandovery beat Llanelli 28-15 so move on to play Camarthen Quins this weekend to decide who joins Leinster, Jersey and Albion in group 5 of the cup

'Wales 2' will be Cardiff or Pontypridd while 'Wales 4' will be Aberavon or Bridgend

The Lost Sheep

Fixtures for this weekends opening round
Leinster A away to Plymouth 3pm Saturday
Munster A home to Moseley 3pm Saturday in Clonmel
Connacht Eagles away to Bristol 3pm Sunday
Ulster Ravens away to Aberavon 2.30pm Saturday

Hagz

I wonder what kind of team we'll see from Leinster with all the injuries. Might see a few raw lads thrown in the mix.

molloyjh

Hagz wrote: »

I wonder what kind of team we'll see from Leinster with all the injuries. Might see a few raw lads thrown in the mix.

Yeah the side that faced Munster A had its share of kids, even by B&I standards. And the injuries to Marsh, COS and Daly won't help. Although I don't know how badly the first 2 are injured. I believe Daly broke his hand.

sydneybound

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Leinster A away to Plymouth 3pm Saturday

Oh god I watched Plymouth on Sky Sport 2 on Sunday they were woeful and are bottom of the division losing heavily to London Scottish. Leinster even though away should still win by a cricket here.

The Lost Sheep

Hagz wrote: »

I wonder what kind of team we'll see from Leinster with all the injuries. Might see a few raw lads thrown in the mix.

The team that faced Munster was very young with vast vast majority of them under age of 23 so there will definitely be some raw players used

RobbieRuns

All provincial teams will be very young.

Braken

sydneybound wrote: »

Oh god I watched Plymouth on Sky Sport 2 on Sunday they were woeful and are bottom of the division losing heavily to London Scottish. Leinster even though away should still win by a cricket here.

There was an interesting article in the examiner today from Donal lenihan
He reckons Irfu should have developed the club game at div1A andB into semi pro and forget the B&I ,he says the English have no interest in it and there is nothing to be gained from playing Plymouth 2nds...
And a vibrant club game is especially important for munster

phog

Braken wrote: »

There was an interesting article in the examiner today from Donal lenihan
He reckons Irfu should have developed the club game at div1A andB into semi pro and forget the B&I ,he says the English have no interest in it and there is nothing to be gained from playing Plymouth 2nds...
And a vibrant club game is especially important for munster

I haven't read the article but in the long term all provinces will need a strong club league underneath the professional game.

The Lost Sheep

RobbieRuns wrote: »

All provincial teams will be very young.

They will but not to extent of some sides in A friendlies. There will be plenty of first team squad members getting game time in these games

Braken wrote: »

There was an interesting article in the examiner today from Donal lenihan
He reckons Irfu should have developed the club game at div1A andB into semi pro and forget the B&I ,he says the English have no interest in it and there is nothing to be gained from playing Plymouth 2nds...
And a vibrant club game is especially important for munster

Disagree. Provinces need the British and Irish Cup and wrong to say English don't have an interest in it and its not as if we really wanted to we could improve it so that the English(and everyone else) can really benefit from B&I Cup.
A vibrant club game is especially important for all provinces not just Munster

ArmchairQB

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

They will but not to extent of some sides in A friendlies. There will be plenty of first team squad members getting game time in these games

Disagree. Provinces need the British and Irish Cup and wrong to say English don't have an interest in it and its not as if we really wanted to we could improve it so that the English(and everyone else) can really benefit from B&I Cup.
A vibrant club game is especially important for all provinces not just Munster

Would agree with Lenihan and the way clubs are getting treated by IRFU and provinces there could well be a likely break away semi pro league in years to come. As another journalist has said previously it is not unnoticed that those at the top table are being increasingly being forced to follow rules brought in by those at the bottom of the table.

Braken

ArmchairQB wrote: »

Would agree with Lenihan and the way clubs are getting treated by IRFU and provinces there could well be a likely break away semi pro league in years to come. As another journalist has said previously it is not unnoticed that those at the top table are being increasingly being forced to follow rules brought in by those at the bottom of the table.

If the Scottish semi-pro league proves successful next season it might not be too long coming...

The Lost Sheep

ArmchairQB wrote: »

Would agree with Lenihan and the way clubs are getting treated by IRFU and provinces there could well be a likely break away semi pro league in years to come. As another journalist has said previously it is not unnoticed that those at the top table are being increasingly being forced to follow rules brought in by those at the bottom of the table.

What would you like the IRFU to do to treat clubs better?

There wont be a break away semi pro league. Which sides would compete? Who would fund it?

Winters

Clubs represent communities, the provinces represent bigger areas, more sponsors, bigger sponsors, more fans.

Professional clubs in Ireland would be a entirely unsustainable option and a recipe for disaster.

We have the correct set up here. Some executive autonomy may occur but ownership will always remain with the members who are the clubs and schools.

stephen_n

A semi pro league in Ireland would be a disaster, there is not a big enough fan base for the clubs to be financially stable. A lot of the clubs still haven't recovered financially from previous attempts at a professional/semi Pro league. With the rise of provincial rugby, the chances of people being prepared to pay into club games is definitely lessened.

Braken

A semi pro league would not survive without some kind of sponsorship be it from the rugby governing body or TV...the Australian model is being supported by TV rights I presume the scots will be supported by their rugby union

The Lost Sheep

Peter Lydon, Stewart Maguire starting for London Scottish
Ben Woods starting for Plymouth and Eoghan Grace is on the bench
Eoin Sherriff starts for Bedford
Joe Joyce, Jack Tovey and Darren Hudson all on the bench for Bristol

None of the provinces teams named yet afaik

thomond2006

Stewart Maguire's career fell off a cliff didn't it?

ArmchairQB

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

What would you like the IRFU to do to treat clubs better?

There wont be a break away semi pro league. Which sides would compete? Who would fund it?

Ther have been unoffical conversations about it, at a guess clubs like Cork Con, Clontarf, Lansdowne, Dolphin, Belvedere, Mary's & Ternure all run their clubbs in a good way and would in general have positive balance sheets.There is a fecognition especiaally among 1a and some in 1b that players deserve some sort of compensation for the effort that is put in at the top leve of club rugby. Most of these clubs have big sponsors who put far more into each club than the IRFU do and could relatively easily support a league. What support other than supplying referees does the IRFU give clubs? They don't even supply balls or travel expenses any more. Change will come ithe next few years either wiyhin or seperate from the current IRFU structure.

Winters

I beg to differ and have 20.5 million reasons to do so. No rugby clubs in Ireland could sustain a fully professional team, semi pro even. Especially with the 4 provinces and national team in competition for sponsors, players and paying fans.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/irfu-blows-whistle-on-pay-for-play-in-clubs-230031.html

the perfect ten

Is Jack Tovey Irish? I thought he was a homegrown Bristol player?

Hagz

Leinster A team

15. Cian Kelleher
14. Sam Coghlan Murray
13. Rory O'Loughlin
12. Steve Crosbie
11. Adam Byrne
10. Ross Byrne
9. Nick McCarthy

1. Brian McGovern
2. Sean McCarthy
3. Oisin Heffernan
4. Tom Denton
5. Gavin Thornbury
6. Ben Marshall
7. Peadar Timmins
8. Jordan Coghlan

16. James Tracy
17. Ivan Soroka
18. Ross Molony
19. Josh Murphy
20. Adam Griggs
21. Tom Farrell
23. Billy Dardis

Hagz

It's an exciting back-line, but less than inspiring pack.

As expected it's a team low on experience

The Lost Sheep

thomond2006 wrote: »

Stewart Maguire's career fell off a cliff didn't it?

More he had bit too much built up on him and he wasn't what people thought he would be based on his underage

ArmchairQB wrote: »

Ther have been unoffical conversations about it, at a guess clubs like Cork Con, Clontarf, Lansdowne, Dolphin, Belvedere, Mary's & Ternure all run their clubbs in a good way and would in general have positive balance sheets.There is a fecognition especiaally among 1a and some in 1b that players deserve some sort of compensation for the effort that is put in at the top leve of club rugby. Most of these clubs have big sponsors who put far more into each club than the IRFU do and could relatively easily support a league. What support other than supplying referees does the IRFU give clubs? They don't even supply balls or travel expenses any more. Change will come ithe next few years either wiyhin or seperate from the current IRFU structure.

That simply isn't happening
IRFU provide funding for clubs, help run competitions, help improve coaches etc wetc
There hasn't been unofficial conversations and if there had been those involved know they are only fantasising of a dream world which will never happen. IRFU do supply balls and equipment etc
The day some deluded club people decide to go outside the IRFU we will be as bad as the PRL that many have derided for the issues in Europe that affect the provinces

Winters wrote: »

I beg to differ and have 20.5 million reasons to do so. No rugby clubs in Ireland could sustain a fully professional team, semi pro even. Especially with the 4 provinces and national team in competition for sponsors, players and paying fans.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/irfu-blows-whistle-on-pay-for-play-in-clubs-230031.html

+1

the perfect ten wrote: »

Is Jack Tovey Irish? I thought he was a homegrown Bristol player?

He has played Irish Exiles. He may be homegrown Bristol but he played with Irish Exiles and involved in some extent at irish age groups

Hagz wrote: »

It's an exciting back-line, but less than inspiring pack.

As expected it's a team low on experience

What's uninspiring about the pack? Very young forwards with Denton in engine room for experience and leadership.
McGovern is decent player. Had few years playing pro in England and France and back here playing club ball

Hagz

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

What's uninspiring about the pack? Very young forwards with Denton in engine room for experience and leadership.
McGovern is decent player. Had few years playing pro in England and France and back here playing club ball

It's not uninspiring in terms of quality, just in terms of potential. Not a big fan of Denton, Timmins or Marshall. Dunno much at all of McGovern, and Sean McCarthy is a head scratcher. It's nice to see Jordan Coghlan in the back-row though.

connemara man

Eagles Team for the Weekend

15. Shane Layden
14. Fionn Carr
13. Shane O’Leary
12. Peter Robb
11. Ciaran Gaffney
10. Miah Nikora
9. John Cooney

1. JP Cooney
2. Pat O’Toole
3. Jamie Dever
4. Andrew Browne
5. Danny Qualter
6. Steve McVeigh
7. James Connolly
8. Eoghan Masterson (captain)

Replacements:
16. Jack Dinneen
17. Jacob Walshe
18. Ultan Dillane
19. Cian Romaine
20. Caolin Blade
21. Conor McKeon
22. David Panter

ArmchairQB

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

That simply isn't happening
IRFU provide funding for clubs, help run competitions, help improve coaches etc wetc
There hasn't been unofficial conversations and if there had been those involved know they are only fantasising of a dream world which will never happen. IRFU do supply balls and equipment etc
The day some deluded club people decide to go outside the IRFU we will be as bad as the PRL that many have derided for the issues in Europe that affect the provinces

Would love for you to outline the IRFU's funding to AIL clubs and you are 100% wrong in saying they provide balls and equipment as they stopped that practice this year they put a sponsor in place provide officials. Something that is not beyond the top clubs capabilities by any stretch of the imagination. Also great to know. That you believe this hasn't been talked about as nothing happens without you knowing!

Hagz

Munster 27 - 21 Moseley
Leinster 31 - 24 Plymouth Albion
Ulster 14 - 18 Aberavon

The Lost Sheep

ArmchairQB wrote: »

Would love for you to outline the IRFU's funding to AIL clubs and you are 100% wrong in saying they provide balls and equipment as they stopped that practice this year they put a sponsor in place provide officials. Something that is not beyond the top clubs capabilities by any stretch of the imagination. Also great to know. That you believe this hasn't been talked about as nothing happens without you knowing!

IRFU provide funding in clubs of Irelands scheme, they do provide equipment.

That isn't happening as they will have to take on the IRFU and they will lose out on a lot if they do and the clubs however much they think it will benefit from a change know they will lose out on so much more if they try to take on the IRFU

ArmchairQB

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

IRFU provide funding in clubs of Irelands scheme, they do provide equipment.

That isn't happening as they will have to take on the IRFU and they will lose out on a lot if they do and the clubs however much they think it will benefit from a change know they will lose out on so much more if they try to take on the IRFU

What equipment do they supply other than to national teams? How much does each club get from their funding?

The Lost Sheep

ArmchairQB wrote: »

What equipment do they supply other than to national teams? How much does each club get from their funding?

I cant comment on what clubs get as it will vary from club to club depending on size of club, numbers of players registered, number of teams fielded that get regular rugby each season(12-14 games)

ArmchairQB

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I cant comment on what clubs get as it will vary from club to club depending on size of club, numbers of players registered, number of teams fielded that get regular rugby each season(12-14 games)

Still adds ups to very little and from a very educated guess the satisfaction level with The IRFU from the top 10 clubs in the country would be well below a failing grade! Spin it how you want but that is how it is! They can't even police their own rules they brought in regarding rule 6!

The Lost Sheep

ArmchairQB wrote: »

Still adds ups to very little and from a very educated guess the satisfaction level with The IRFU from the top 10 clubs in the country would be well below a failing grade! Spin it how you want but that is how it is! They can't even police their own rules they brought in regarding rule 6!

I disagree and im not spinning anything whatever you say. The IRFU isn't perfect but the clubs and anyone involved would be idiots to try take them on and irish rugby would be much the worse if a collision between parties took place

ArmchairQB

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I disagree and im not spinning anything whatever you say. The IRFU isn't perfect but the clubs and anyone involved would be idiots to try take them on and irish rugby would be much the worse if a collision between parties took place

Collisions will always take place it is the outcome of those collisions and whether paries come to agreed comprises is what is at the centre of it all. Whether both IRFU and the so called top clubs would ever part ways is very doubtful but what is probable in the future several years down the line is that clubs will grow more powerful and demand changes that suit them more specifically rather than generic rules that radically change the state of the game at top level. Munster as an example have been vocal on and are loosing top players from top clubs because they can no longer offer any material benifts to keep them and they are now leaving for pastures new mostly to Dublin for employment but also abroad. Munster clubs I have talked to are far more upset with IRFU than most other clubs. Basically I agree with the point that has been made in that the AIL seems to be run the way the lower placed clubs down the divisions want it run which is mostly opposite to the way the higher placed clubs want it run. Clubs like Blackrock, Shannon and through their past IRFU president Galwegians have made the most noise about new rules basically because they ran their clubs into the ground financially and made very poor decisions with their finances. Every club is now basically told that because of incompetence by some you will now all suffer. The amount of debt in the recent reports is mostly down the divisions not at the so called top clubs who run and handle their clubs finances very competently. Like all aspects of life and business you will only be talked down at and dictated to for so long before their is a reaction which hopefully leads to compromises down the line that satisfy all parties.
That is my opinion on the matter I won't be drawn into further debate on it here but in private it will continue for years to come

The Lost Sheep

ArmchairQB wrote: »

Collisions will always take place it is the outcome of those collisions and whether paries come to agreed comprises is what is at the centre of it all. Whether both IRFU and the so called top clubs would ever part ways is very doubtful but what is probable in the future several years down the line is that clubs will grow more powerful and demand changes that suit them more specifically rather than generic rules that radically change the state of the game at top level. Munster as an example have been vocal on and are losing top players from top clubs because they can no longer offer any material benifts to keep them and they are now leaving for pastures new mostly to Dublin for employment but also abroad. Munster clubs I have talked to are far more upset with IRFU than most other clubs. Basically I agree with the point that has been made in that the AIL seems to be run the way the lower placed clubs down the divisions want it run which is mostly opposite to the way the higher placed clubs want it run. Clubs like Blackrock, Shannon and through their past IRFU president Galwegians have made the most noise about new rules basically because they ran their clubs into the ground financially and made very poor decisions with their finances. Every club is now basically told that because of incompetence by some you will now all suffer. The amount of debt in the recent reports is mostly down the divisions not at the so called top clubs who run and handle their clubs finances very competently. Like all aspects of life and business you will only be talked down at and dictated to for so long before their is a reaction which hopefully leads to compromises down the line that satisfy all parties.
That is my opinion on the matter I won't be drawn into further debate on it here but in private it will continue for years to come

It may be discussed but discussions is all that will happen because clubs who try to go further are very naïve as nothing will come from it especially anything that will be progressive for both club rugby and rugby In Ireland in general.
Where do you see clubs gaining more power and which clubs in particular?
Munster clubs are losing players because there is large numbers of men who cant find work and a bit of cash for playing some rugby wont keep them in Limerick/Tipperary/Cork when they can go to Dublin, get a job and play rugby with a club up there. My own club has about half a dozen players who would be first team players playing 1st team or 2nd team ball with clubs in the capital and my club being able to give them some €€€s would not keep them in Munster.
The idiotic actions of some clubs, some of whom you mention, are excellent warnings to all clubs and In my opinion the IRFU were right to put in these rules as its better to protect all clubs from potential ruin by banning €€€s then to allow clubs race a stupid race to ruin.
I agree hopefully we'll see a compromise but I can guarantee clubs will not break away from the norm. They will be losing much of their footing if they do and will be sinking into the s*** if they do so

The Lost Sheep

Round 1
Provinces results
Bristol 50 Connacht Eagles 34
Aberavon 18 Ulster Ravens 14
Munster A 27 Moseley 21
Plymouth 24 Leinster A 31

Thoughts on next weekend?
Connacht home to Pontypridd in Sportsground Sunday
Ulster home to Leeds in Ravenhill Saturday
Munster travel to Worcester Saturday
Leinster home to Jersey in Donnybrook Friday