Large salary disparity vs USA

barry181091

Hey guys,

I was just looking up grad salaries for software engineering, generally around the 30k mark for Ireland, fine.

Now I looked up graduate salaries in the US, just as a matter of interest and I was SHOCKED.

Basically you can earn nigh on 100k dollars as a grad software engineer. Thats 71k euro! Am I missing something? Is there some massive tax or something that I am not taking into account?

I understand there are differences in salaries obviously but that is ridiculous!

Bepolite

A completely different work ethic - 2 week holiday is generally the average. Much less job security (to be fair job security here is an illusion).

Much better degrees than universities offer here - therefore better pay to attract talent.

Health care etc. will be your responsibility (or part of your package) - not that will be different for much longer.

The US has always had a better standard of living (for the rich) and better salaries than Ireland.

shruikan2553

In the US they would probably have student loans to pay off too.

barry181091

Bepolite wrote: »

A completely different work ethic - 2 week holiday is generally the average. Much less job security (to be fair job security here is an illusion).

Much better degrees than universities offer here - therefore better pay to attract talent.

Health care etc. will be your responsibility (or part of your package) - not that will be different for much longer.

The US has always had a better standard of living (for the rich) and better salaries than Ireland.

Quite surprised at that to be honest, I thought our degrees were just as good as US degrees? Obviously now there are the exceptions like MIT and the like.

Bepolite

barry181091 wrote: »

Quite surprised at that to be honest, I thought our degrees were just as good as US degrees? Obviously now there are the exceptions like MIT and the like.

Have a look at the rankings. The whole US education system is pretty far ahead of ours (again for the rich). An average US university might be on a par with TCD/UCD but that leave a lot of institutions ahead of us.

That said qualifications aren't everything and if you have the chops to get a job out there the very best of luck to you! Even if you can only stick it for a few years it's going to be fantastic experience.

Manach

It places the US desire to offshore/import workers with visas in context.

leeroybrown

barry181091 wrote: »

Basically you can earn nigh on 100k dollars as a grad software engineer. Thats 71k euro! Am I missing something? Is there some massive tax or something that I am not taking into account?

It's definitely not tax. A single American with no dependents probably pays just over $25,000 in tax on that $100,000 salary. I'm guessing you're looking at tech salaries in California so the biggest single difference will be housing costs. Renting a nice apartment in the area you want to live in could realistically cost $30,000 (yes, I said $30,000) per year there. You could be paying $5000 in health insurance per year too.

Even after all that you'll have bags of cash left. They pay very well over there.

barry181091 wrote: »

Quite surprised at that to be honest, I thought our degrees were just as good as US degrees? Obviously now there are the exceptions like MIT and the like.

It's much more than just MIT. Most of the big private colleges provide excellent programmes with far better facilities. They do pay a fortune for them though.

mikemac1

minimum 20 days annual leave in Ireland

It's 10 - 12 days annual leave in the USA

It doesn't explain all the difference for the OP but it's one part of it anyway

tenifan

barry181091 wrote: »

Quite surprised at that to be honest, I thought our degrees were just as good as US degrees? Obviously now there are the exceptions like MIT and the like.

I did a "level 8" H.Dip in computers a few years ago and was shocked at the standard. The course was dumbed down a lot, and some of the people who should have failed instead got second class honours.

Ray Palmer

Health insurance alone is a huge cost. It can be as much as mortgage payments. Dental costs are similarly high. The country spend a third of their gdp on medical expenses.

él statutorio

mikemac1 wrote: »

minimum 20 days annual leave in Ireland

It's 10 - 12 days annual leave in the USA

It doesn't explain all the difference for the OP but it's one part of it anyway

10 days is the basic in IT in the US. Plus usually around 3 "sick" days (which are treated as AL days anyway)

But, most places will top that up to 15 after a few years.

You can always add unpaid leave to that.

blindsider

OP - some of those salaries will be the cream of the crop - for the very best students with 1sts etc. It's a bigger, more competitive market and cost of living (as per Leeroy Brown) is a factor.

Also, some companies will want your soul for that money - 60 - 70 hr weeks.

It'd be great experience though.

Tar.Aldarion

Be pretty sweet to have 75k take home as a grad no matter what you additional expenses are. Minimum days off does not equal actual days off if you are good. Job security always an issue but you would be racking up savings anyway

Tarzana

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Minimum days off does not equal actual days off if you are good. Job security always an issue but you would be racking up savings anyway.

In America, hardly anyone takes more than the minimum days. It's frowned about to take more than that. New grads probably wouldn't even take the minimum. Welcome to American work culture!

danthefan

mikemac1 wrote: »

minimum 20 days annual leave in Ireland

It's 10 - 12 days annual leave in the USA

It doesn't explain all the difference for the OP but it's one part of it anyway

There is no entitlement to annual leave in the US afaik.

barry181091

Very interesting guys! Would actually be great experience though for a year or two! Would be nice to bring home 50k euro after two years of work

I'd love to get views from anyone who has actually moved over there to work, could be a greener grass situation!

Tar.Aldarion

Tarzana wrote: »

In America, hardly anyone takes more than the minimum days. It's frowned about to take more than that. New grads probably wouldn't even take the minimum. Welcome to American work culture!

I mean as you get more experience you can get more holidays, I wouldn't want much days off as a grad

Tarzana

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

I mean as you get more experience you can get more holidays, I wouldn't want much days off as a grad

Right, but even then they won't take many.

I had no qualms taking all my holidays as a graduate in my first job.

Kensington

Much of a muchness really. In our place we envy the US guys for their wages yet they equally envy us for the benefits and in particular the amount of time off that we get as standard here in Ireland (and Europe as a whole).

Standard annual leave over there is 10 days (160 hours "Personal Time Off" per annum).
Only top level or executive management get anything close to the 20 days we get as a minimum here.

Wages in Silicon Valley are also higher than normal again but when you look at the likes of Facebook, Google etc. as someone mentioned they expect your soul - they don't spend a fortune kitting out nap rooms, games console rooms, quiet rooms, free phone handsets and tablets and laptops and canteen food for nothing, you are pretty much expected to make your job the centrepoint of your life.

gugleguy

Kensington wrote: »

Only they expect your soul - they don't spend a fortune kitting out nap rooms, games console rooms, quiet rooms, free phone handsets and tablets and laptops and canteen food for nothing, you are pretty much expected to make your job the centrepoint of your life.

Work - life balance is simply palava over there OP.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Its a cultural difference.

In America the state doesn't pay for College so in order to attract graduates of the required calibre (probably people with $400K in student debt) they have to pay through the nose.

Tarzana

Kensington wrote: »

Wages in Silicon Valley are also higher than normal again but when you look at the likes of Facebook, Google etc. as someone mentioned they expect your soul - they don't spend a fortune kitting out nap rooms, games console rooms, quiet rooms, free phone handsets and tablets and laptops and canteen food for nothing, you are pretty much expected to make your job the centrepoint of your life.

Bingo.

When I hear people longing to work for Google and Facebook and the like, I think of this. And I have a friend who works for Facebook in Ireland - the job is her life. She likes it though. But it wouldn't be for me.

Frank Lee Midere

Tarzana wrote: »

Bingo.

When I hear people longing to work for Google and Facebook and the like, I think of this. And I have a friend who works for Facebook in Ireland - the job is her life. She likes it though. But it wouldn't be for me.

It particularly attracts grads to be in a environment which has free food and play, might as well stay to 10pm. And get some work done if nobody is up for FuzzBall

Frank Lee Midere

Pretty sure that people are getting the taxes in california wrong, with both State, City ( maybe) and Federal taxes it all adds up to a very high marginal.

EDIT: looked this up.

On $80K are paying about 25% federal at that rate, and about 10% State. Leaving you with about 50K ( and a rate similar to Ireland, although the marginal is lower you pay tax on all your earnings from $0). If you are paying $30K a year in rent you are going to have some money ( about $2k p/m) to spend but you won't be rich. American grads paying back their fees will have not much spending power.

Of course you can always share accommodation.

EDit

Kensington wrote: »

Much of a muchness really. In our place we envy the US guys for their wages yet they equally envy us for the benefits and in particular the amount of time off that we get as standard here in Ireland (and Europe as a whole).

Standard annual leave over there is 10 days (160 hours "Personal Time Off" per annum).
Only top level or executive management get anything close to the 20 days we get as a minimum here.

Wages in Silicon Valley are also higher than normal again but when you look at the likes of Facebook, Google etc. as someone mentioned they expect your soul - they don't spend a fortune kitting out nap rooms, games console rooms, quiet rooms, free phone handsets and tablets and laptops and canteen food for nothing, you are pretty much expected to make your job the centrepoint of your life.

Don't work in IT industry (in Pharma) but it's the same situation at my company. I actually manage people in the US (all based in or around NJ) who earn more than me after currency conversion (as their manager, I get to see their salaries). However, the above description pretty much sums it up...one thing that is really noticeable is that I have a 3 month notice period on my contract, whereas they can be marched out of the office the same day (ie, non-existent job security). East Coast US is also seen as a "high cost" area to live.

Frank Lee Midere

Bepolite wrote: »

Have a look at the rankings. The whole US education system is pretty far ahead of ours (again for the rich). An average US university might be on a par with TCD/UCD but that leave a lot of institutions ahead of us.

That said qualifications aren't everything and if you have the chops to get a job out there the very best of luck to you! Even if you can only stick it for a few years it's going to be fantastic experience.

Those university rankings are generally hogwash. Its basically a list the names of famous universities ranking.

Tarzana

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

It particularly attracts grads to be in a environment which has free food and play, might as well stay to 10pm. And get some work done if nobody is up for FuzzBall

My own personal idea of hell. I only truly feel at home at home, so I like my work environment to feel like a work environment.

EDit

...also OP, if you do go, don't have children over there (or don't let them grow up over there). The stories I've been told of how much parents have had to pay for their kids to go to college over there are enough to make you cry!!

Timistry

gugleguy wrote: »

Work - life balance is simply palava over there OP.

Abit off topic, but this is analogous to the "amazing wages in Australia myth"

Tarzana

Timistry wrote: »

Abit off topic, but this is analogous to the "amazing wages in Australia myth"

From the good number of Americans I know, in all levels of employment, it's not a myth. Anecdotal, maybe.

wahesh32

I'm am American working as a software developer in Dublin. I do not know anyone in the US who started off making $100k after graduation in software (maybe if they got picked up by Facebook/Google/etc? But they are definitely the exception). When I first graduated I was making $57k (most of my job offers were between $45k - $55k), and that was the highest amongst my friends ($57k is about 42k euro). Also, the federal income taxes might be around 25%, but there's also state, city, and county taxes on top. Not to mention the property tax can be almost 2% of your property's value a year (which adds up to quite a bit). Overall the tax situation is not that terribly different than here in Ireland, but in the US it was hard to track just where the hell all that tax was going. I lived in Texas (with a relatively low cost of living and no state income tax), so the salaries might be a bit higher on the east or west coast, but the cost of living will be a lot higher.

Health insurance for my wife and I (with no health problems) was $7000 a year (although I only paid $3000 of it, my job covered the other $4000. This was paid with pre-tax income). The amount we owed for any medical procedures after insurance was never cheap (my asthma inhaler in the US was $180 with insurance, here in Ireland it's 12euro). Also, all bills were significantly higher in the US (such as cable, internet, mobile).

I work a lot less hours here in Ireland. So even though your base salary may be high in the US, if you figured out your hourly wage you might not be so impressed. It's also very common in the US to be fired on the spot without notice, where you are escorted out by security, and all your desk belongings are sent in a box by the post. They call this "right to work" (whatever that means). 10 days vacation is common, and in a lot of jobs if you are sick for a day then they take that away from your vacation. At my last job, if you needed to miss 20 days due to an illness/surgery then you'd lose all your vacation and not get paid for 10 days (even though it's a salary). Your coworkers could "donate" days of their vacation to you so that you don't lose your paycheck (while you're paying your ridiculous medical bill).

Losing your job means losing your health insurance. So if you have something like cancer and are going through chemo treatments and there are layoffs at your job, you can quite literally fear for your life. You may get a new job, but won't be accepted on their health insurance for "preexisting conditions".

College is breathtakingly expensive. I've been out of college for 6 years and I still owe $40k in student loans at 6.7% interest.

If the damn housing were cheaper here in Dublin, I would say that living in Ireland is without a doubt cheaper than living in a "cheap" large city in the US.

I get paid less here in Dublin, but my quality of life is much higher. The US is still very nice with a great quality of life, and I wouldn't shocked if a lot of people preferred that style of life over the Irish style. Then again, I had mostly negative interactions while working in corporate America, and have had mostly positive interactions while working in corporate Ireland. Your mileage may vary.

beauf

Thanks for posting. Lot of info there.

barry181091

Excellent post wahesh32!! Thanks for making the effort!

I knew it wasn't as clear cut as just a matter of pure salary. Hmm I think I like the idea of Europe to be honest.

The way I see it, the US is a great place to work and live when you are young, free and single. You have no health issues and no real need for vacation time. Eager for development yada yada. Everything gets complicated once you get a family, what happens if your health goes down? Thats where the US becomes a bit shaky unless you are uber-rich.

God even just thinking about any part-time jobs ive had. Even they had to give you three warnings before firing you. Really excellent employee rights the ore I think about it.

GrumPy

shruikan2553 wrote: »

In the US they would probably have student loans to pay off too.

This is the main reason by far. Graduates have massive loans to pay off over there. In Ireland, registration is approx 3,000 euro per year. Triple that will give you a rough idea of what the American's have to shell out.
I'm over in the US now, training for a software role back home in Dublin, and alot of the people in my class are American, straight from college graduates (21 -23 years old), and they are making the same/ more than me, despite the age difference & my 3 years professional experience.

Jim2007

leeroybrown wrote: »

It's much more than just MIT. Most of the big private colleges provide excellent programmes with far better facilities. They do pay a fortune for them though.

Over the years I've been involved in the recruiting of IT staff at 5 European MNCs and the all had the same rule for US candidates: If Ivy League then a BS is OK otherwise an MS was required. And I must say they were right - yes some of the programs looked great, but the bottom line was that the exam process in many cases was terrible, resulting in some incredible dodos getting degrees.

Jim2007

Tarzana wrote: »

In America, hardly anyone takes more than the minimum days. It's frowned about to take more than that. New grads probably wouldn't even take the minimum. Welcome to American work culture!

Well the first thing to remember is that unlike Europe, holidays are earned in arrears in most cases, so you'd have to work a whole year before getting any annual leave.

Another think to keep in mind is than in many companies, you get a certain number of sick day - often three and beyond that it comes out of your holidays.

And as you say taking more than the minimum is frowned upon and so many people are afraid to take their full leave in case they loose their job.

Jim2007

barry181091 wrote: »

Thats where the US becomes a bit shaky unless you are uber-rich.

Even if you are... an American friend of mine did his MBA at an Ivy League college and unlike his colleagues that went on to high power careers in corporate America, he ended his career in a middle management position in Dublin.

He was tell me the big difference he sees is that his friends are scared to spend their cash on holidays, trips and what not where as he does not think twice about it. The difference - he does not have to worry about medical bankruptcy!

He said that one of his friends even went to the hospital with him when he had to attend an outpatiant clinic, because they were sure he was having to pay heaps each time he went!

Jim2007

barry181091 wrote: »

Very interesting guys! Would actually be great experience though for a year or two! Would be nice to bring home 50k euro after two years of work

I'd love to get views from anyone who has actually moved over there to work, could be a greener grass situation!

Well I can give you an idea of 20+ years spend working for software houses here in Switzerland:

- New graduates in smaller software houses: about €65K

- Graduates with 3 years experience: about €90K upwards

- Employer pension contributions: from about 7% to 17% depending on age

- Taxes depend on where you live but say about 21% in total, plus about 10% for social insurance and pension contributions.

- Unemployment benefits: 70% of salary if single or married without kids for 2 years, 80% if married with kids for 2 years (average length of unemployment is 5 months, but much less in IT).

- Sick pay: usually 2 years at 100%, there after it depends on your pension disability allowance.

- Work hours: normally 40 to 45 hours per week, over time is not expected or encouraged - really we do not do overtime!

- Language: it helps if you speak one of the national languages, but many companies use English as the working language and most companies will offer paid classes plus some time off to learn the language.

Now Switzerland is an expensive country, but even so you should be able to live very well and still put away €1000 a month into savings plus about €15K per annum into the pension fund.

For me though the work-life balance is the big issue. We worked the contracted hours and that is it, regardless if you are management or not. By 5:30pm in my office the only one left will be the cleaning lady and on Fridays we normally knock of at 4:00pm as is traditional for in Swiss firms. And no one from work would dare contact you outside office hours, it is just not done.

If you are looking for better salaries and work-live balance, then look to Europe first not the USA.

wahesh32

Jim2007 wrote: »

If you are looking for better salaries and work-live balance, then look to Europe first not the USA.

I completely agree.

Working long hours and never taking vacation are badges of honour in the US, but I couldn't last. I just didn't have the endurance (but you could never say this out loud). I was so mentally and physically tired, I couldn't even enjoy the few days off. It's not a way to live through life (at least for me).

barry181091

Jim2007 wrote: »

Well I can give you an idea of 20+ years spend working for software houses here in Switzerland:

- New graduates in smaller software houses: about €65K

- Graduates with 3 years experience: about €90K upwards

- Employer pension contributions: from about 7% to 17% depending on age

- Taxes depend on where you live but say about 21% in total, plus about 10% for social insurance and pension contributions.

- Unemployment benefits: 70% of salary if single or married without kids for 2 years, 80% if married with kids for 2 years (average length of unemployment is 5 months, but much less in IT).

- Sick pay: usually 2 years at 100%, there after it depends on your pension disability allowance.

- Work hours: normally 40 to 45 hours per week, over time is not expected or encouraged - really we do not do overtime!

- Language: it helps if you speak one of the national languages, but many companies use English as the working language and most companies will offer paid classes plus some time off to learn the language.

Now Switzerland is an expensive country, but even so you should be able to live very well and still put away €1000 a month into savings plus about €15K per annum into the pension fund.

For me though the work-life balance is the big issue. We worked the contracted hours and that is it, regardless if you are management or not. By 5:30pm in my office the only one left will be the cleaning lady and on Fridays we normally knock of at 4:00pm as is traditional for in Swiss firms. And no one from work would dare contact you outside office hours, it is just not done.

If you are looking for better salaries and work-live balance, then look to Europe first not the USA.

Right, feck the US. Switzerland is the place to go :eek::eek: :P

Jim2007

barry181091 wrote: »

Right, feck the US. Switzerland is the place to go :eek::eek: :P

I said Europe, from what I know France, Austria and even Germany offer similar packages - salaries are a bit lower, but so is the cost of living.

Guy:Incognito

We missed a trick by not hoarding all the Nazi gold.

TheLongRun

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Be pretty sweet to have 75k take home as a grad no matter what you additional expenses are. Minimum days off does not equal actual days off if you are good. Job security always an issue but you would be racking up savings anyway

Not sure why you bothered replying because you clearly don't have a clue. Typical blaise attitude.

Tar.Aldarion

TheLongRun wrote: »

Not sure why you bothered replying because you clearly don't have a clue. Typical blaise attitude.

No, I asked a friend working there, who just was home for 3 weeks, do you have a clue? Are you referring to blaise pascal?

imitation

I prefer the Irish system, I know taxes and costs are high here now, and wages have stated static, but the American way of life seems so cut throat and cynical in comparison. I just saw an internet campaign to take spiked tiles off street door ways, that seems to be the attitude to the huge homeless problem in many states.

Its the health insurance that gets me really though, as one of the excellent posts says, your job can pay for it, but if you loose your job, that's it. There are plenty who have been caught out as well having expensive illnesses not covered or half covered.

The cynical side of me thinks that a lot of people go there for a holiday, see how cheap consumer goods are, the competitively high salary for skilled work and the good weather etc and think how fantastic it must be, without realizing all the "hidden" downsides.

Stheno

wahesh32 wrote: »

I completely agree.

Working long hours and never taking vacation are badges of honour in the US, but I couldn't last. I just didn't have the endurance (but you could never say this out loud). I was so mentally and physically tired, I couldn't even enjoy the few days off. It's not a way to live through life (at least for me).

I worked for an American MNC in IT a few years ago, we had a 24 hour canteen, onsite dry cleaning, bank branches in our office, a gym, a rest room etc etc.

It was not unusual to be working Sat/Sun remotely, having calls at all hours of the evening up to 11pm etc, and on a couple of memorable occasions I left the office at 3am

tenifan

imitation wrote: »

I prefer the Irish system, I know taxes and costs are high here now, and wages have stated static, but the American way of life seems so cut throat and cynical in comparison

I pay about 9k out of my gross salary in diesel and tolls. Im losing trs on my mortgage. I can't afford healthcare or a pension and my employer doesn't provide it. Or gym, dental, etc.
All i have going for me is a 9-5 (plus a 90 min round trip). If i get a dublin city centre job I'd save the commuting expense (public transport is tax deductible) and I'd have more money to pay into a pension. But my day will become at least a 6.30am to 7 pm (journey to public transport + public transport), plus any unpaid OT expected.
Don't pretend Ireland's system is any less cynical than the US. Some people have good jobs but there's a generation in negative equity who are just about holding their heads above water, followed by a generation who can't even get jobs.

Mr. Loverman

barry181091 wrote: »

Quite surprised at that to be honest, I thought our degrees were just as good as US degrees? Obviously now there are the exceptions like MIT and the like.

I've been to college in both Ireland and the US.

No comparison really... in Ireland I could learn my course in a couple of weeks of self-study. The US course was much more challenging -- no hand holding.

lyda

Bepolite wrote: »

A completely different work ethic - 2 week holiday is generally the average. Much less job security (to be fair job security here is an illusion).

Much better degrees than universities offer here - therefore better pay to attract talent.

Health care etc. will be your responsibility (or part of your package) - not that will be different for much longer.

The US has always had a better standard of living (for the rich) and better salaries than Ireland.

I grew up and worked in the US before moving here in 1998. Even back then, must decent tech jobs (which will tend to pay better) will also tend to have better benefits packages. They'll cover health care and they'll have four to five weeks of holidays. Burned out unhealthy employees don't write good code or reliably maintain systems.

Work ethic is actually pretty much the same in my experience. Generally my US employers (here or in Ireland when I worked for a US company) manage tech teams better than Irish employers.

OTOH living in Ireland you don't need to wonder what things you should add kevlar to in order to reduce your risk of being shot. Which is a nice benefit I must admit.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

imitation

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

When stating it was cyncial, I was referring to the overall system rather than the workplace attitude, there is far more self interest, far more "why should I pay for that guy".

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Your right, I made an incorrect assumption.

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

You see heres the thing, the health care system is light years ahead in the US, if you can pay for it. There is no doubt that if you have the means that your probably most likely to get the best care in the US. Its not a perfect system though there are plenty of articles out there stating the huge cost of treatments in the US compared to other countries, one example is a MRI, the average cost can be $1100 in the states, while its more like $200 in Ireland.

If your in a good job with the right benefits (and you've done your homework) then none of that will be a problem. If your a skilled worker and can get the type of work listed then odds are you will be better off than you would be in Ireland, I can't really argue that point. But on the other hand your going to be a in a different sort of society, where the average Joe would love to be in the Irish healthcare system rather than out on the street. There is a greater disparity

What if you have kids who don't end up doing college and have to try and life the average persons life there? Personally for me its worth it to be in a more balanced society with the overall benefits that brings.