OFF THE BALL INCIDENTS IN HURLING

Gary Neville

I'm not trying to start an argument on this - merely looking for peoples views.

I noticed 3 fairly clear off the ball incidents in the Cork V Waterford Hurling Replay (in random order) :-

(1) Waterford Keeper S O Keefe barged into A Nash just after the penalty rebound was pointed. He knocked Nash to the ground for no apparent reason - as Nash was remonstrating with Ryan. This led to tame enough melee.

(2) Waterford No 14 B O Sullivan pulled accross Cork's D Cahalane - Cahalane wnet down (fairly easily) - there was probably provocation (some may consider that relevant)

(3) Cork 7, L O Loughlin seemed to lash out/pull across (not clearly shown on TV) Waterford forward A Gleeson. Gleeson went down in apparent pain. I was told by someone at the game that Gleeson had provoked him.

Seemed like red card offences to me (don't know whether Cahalane and Gleeson deserved cards) but AFAIK ref John Ryan didn't issue cards or didn't consult other match officials (open to correction on this)

When players get away with these kind of off the ball incidents in high profile games like this - it encourages other players at all levels and ages to do the same.

This kind of behaviour only serves to damage the greatest field game in the world moreover as it's now going to a wider audience.

Is it time for the GAA to take a more 'hard-line' action ?

adrian522

Yeah, let's issue 10 or 15 red cards a game, that will make the games much better.

JeffKenna

Stick to the soccer Gary.

Gary Neville

adrian522 wrote: »

Yeah, let's issue 10 or 15 red cards a game, that will make the games much better.

Players would cut out the fouls fairly quickly if they knew that the rules were going to be applied. I don't think it would increase reds in the medium term but rather reduce foul play.

I do take your point that spectators don't want games ruined by red cards.

slingerz

adrian522 wrote: »

Yeah, let's issue 10 or 15 red cards a game, that will make the games much better.

Or perhaps players could behave themselves?

Gary Neville

JeffKenna wrote: »

Stick to the soccer Gary.

I'm not really Gary Neville

slavetothegrind

rugby could teach both gaa and soccer in this area.
proves it's possible to have a good flowing game whilst maintaining discipline

adrian522

slingerz wrote: »

Or perhaps players could behave themselves?

If you want to see people "behave" go watch cricket, some of us like a bit of physicality in our sport. If we are going to start dishing out Red Cards every time a player is shouldered and he falls on his arse than it will be a pretty **** sport.

robbiezero

Gary Neville wrote: »

I'm not trying to start an argument on this - merely looking for peoples views.

I noticed 3 fairly clear off the ball incidents in the Cork V Waterford Hurling Replay (in random order) :-

(1) Waterford Keeper S O Keefe barged into A Nash just after the penalty rebound was pointed. He knocked Nash to the ground for no apparent reason - as Nash was remonstrating with Ryan. This led to tame enough melee.

(2) Waterford No 14 B O Sullivan pulled accross Cork's D Cahalane - Cahalane wnet down (fairly easily) - there was probably provocation (some may consider that relevant)

(3) Cork 7, L O Loughlin seemed to lash out/pull across (not clearly shown on TV) Waterford forward A Gleeson. Gleeson went down in apparent pain. I was told by someone at the game that Gleeson had provoked him.

Seemed like red card offences to me (don't know whether Cahalane and Gleeson deserved cards) but AFAIK ref John Ryan didn't issue cards or didn't consult other match officials (open to correction on this)

When players get away with these kind of off the ball incidents in high profile games like this - it encourages other players at all levels and ages to do the same.

This kind of behaviour only serves to damage the greatest field game in the world moreover as it's now going to a wider audience.

Is it time for the GAA to take a more 'hard-line' action ?

Number 1 is hardly anywhere near a red card offence.

rebel girl 15

Some dirty sneaky strokes have crept into the game - I have no problem with physicality, big hits and sometimes mistimed shoulders but when you call dirty strokes that, then its a different sport you should be at.

Striking is a red - provocation or not, and referees and their team need to be faster to show reds for them. Once a few are shown, then very quickly becomes a cleaner game. TBH I thought Ryan lost control of the game very early, and discipline was going to be an issue - if players think they can get away with it, you do if you think it will give you any sort of an edge

Grats

Off the ball stuff is often difficult to police but they are getting better at it. There is no excuse though for missing out on ON THE BALL stuff like the amount of diving and over carrying that has crept into hurling in the last year or so. It takes place right in front of the refs eyes, not off the ball, and they ignore it.

Gary Neville

adrian522 wrote: »

If you want to see people "behave" go watch cricket, some of us like a bit of physicality in our sport. If we are going to start dishing out Red Cards every time a player is shouldered and he falls on his arse than it will be a pretty **** sport.

Hurling is a contact sport and most supporters want to see the physical tussles or Manly Hurling as it's called in KK.

But striking an opponent with a hurley, off the ball, is going beyond the manly stuff IMO.
I can't see any justification in allowing a player to barge/charge an opponent from behind, off the ball and knock him to the ground - it's even more crazy when the player assaulted is actually talking to the ref when it occurs. I'm guessing you didn't see the incident. I'd have found it hard to believe if I hadn't seen it.
What's your view ?

adrian522

I did see it, no issue with it whatsoever.

As I said it would be a pretty poor sport if every-time a bit of pushing and shoving breaks out we are going to have a spate of red cards.

Gary Neville

robbiezero wrote: »

Number 1 is hardly anywhere near a red card offence.

But it's exactly the type of offence that causes a free for all. I don't mind a fair shoulder to shoulder but I think the O Keefe action should be stamped out. It's a matter of opinion.

adrian522

In that case if somebody shoulders you off the ball, what do you do? Draw the ref's attention to it and request a red card?

yomtea98

adrian522 wrote: »

If you want to see people "behave" go watch cricket, some of us like a bit of physicality in our sport. If we are going to start dishing out Red Cards every time a player is shouldered and he falls on his arse than it will be a pretty **** sport.

Ah yes pulling across a mans chest, very manly indeed. No place for dirty strokes in the game, tussling and shouldering alright but no crap like we with the Waterford FF and Cahalane

robbiezero

Gary Neville wrote: »

But it's exactly the type of offence that causes a free for all. I don't mind a fair shoulder to shoulder but I think the O Keefe action should be stamped out. It's a matter of opinion.

That's a fair point. Although if I got the smack of a sliotar he had got, I'd definitely want to hit something.

Gary Neville

adrian522 wrote: »

I did see it, no issue with it whatsoever.

As I said it would be a pretty poor sport if every-time a bit of pushing and shoving breaks out we are going to have a spate of red cards.

Fair enough - I'd be very much of the opposite view. You're saying that a player can go onto the field and barge into his opponent and knock him to the ground whenever he wants. A spate of red cards would ruin a game but if every player went around flooping opponents whenever it takes their fancy - it'd be a bit of a farce wouldn't it ?

You're not wumming, by any chance, are you ?

Gary Neville

robbiezero wrote: »

That's a fair point. Although if I got the smack of a sliotar he had got, I'd definitely want to hit something.

Davey Fitz used to take out an old hurley and start flaking the goal post. But if you're a little fish, you can get away with that sort of thing, so you can.

DunedinOg

adrian522 wrote: »

In that case if somebody shoulders you off the ball, what do you do? Draw the ref's attention to it and request a red card?

Surely a wind up? If you think the high point of a hurling match is belting off the ball and two lads rutting each other like two boozed up stags then you mustn't much like hurling.

peabutler

Have some of ye ever played the game at all I wonder ? If my man gave me a shoulder or a dig off the ball I for one wouldn't want to see him sent off, I'd like to sort it out like a man and give him a rattle back and next time the ball comes give him another rattle and if he wants to stay digging all the better, makes a real contest of it.

adrian522

yomtea98 wrote: »

Ah yes pulling across a mans chest, very manly indeed. No place for dirty strokes in the game, tussling and shouldering alright but no crap like we with the Waterford FF and Cahalane

I never mentioned "Manly"

I was talking about Nash and the Waterford keeper.

adrian522

DunedinOg wrote: »

Surely a wind up? If you think the high point of a hurling match is belting off the ball and two lads rutting each other like two boozed up stags then you mustn't much like hurling.

I never mentioned "the High Point of a hurling match". Try reading posts before you respond.

JeffKenna

Gary Neville wrote: »

I'm not really Gary Neville

I'm not really Jeff Kenna.

With regard to the thread it's ridiculous and unfair to single out players like Brian O' Sullivan. Sure, it was wrong what he did but the only reason we're taking about it is the camera picked it up. We have no idea what went on right before the incident.

Professey Chin

yomtea98 wrote: »

Ah yes pulling across a mans chest, very manly indeed. No place for dirty strokes in the game, tussling and shouldering alright but no crap like we with the Waterford FF and Cahalane

And the low blow on Gleeson after the penalty

Fireball07

O'Keeffe's shoulder on Nash wasn't even close to a red card, would be laughable if it had resulted in that.

O'Sullivan's was a red card by the letter of the law, no place for that really. Didn't see the other one.


I don't really have much of a problem with players shouldering each other off the ball tbh, as long as they don't go over the top and start wrestling and stuff. But pulling dirty strokes should be cut out, and jabbing with the end of the hurley. Nasty stuff.

The Bogman

Fireball07 wrote: »

I don't really have much of a problem with players shouldering each other off the ball tbh, as long as they don't go over the top and start wrestling and stuff. But pulling dirty strokes should be cut out, and jabbing with the end of the hurley. Nasty stuff.

Reading this comment and the first thing that popped into my head was this man. Honestly, in the nameajaysus, what was the referee and his umpires looking at?

Mountainlad

Fireball07 wrote: »

O'Keeffe's shoulder on Nash wasn't even close to a red card, would be laughable if it had resulted in that.

O'Sullivan's was a red card by the letter of the law, no place for that really. Didn't see the other one.


I don't really have much of a problem with players shouldering each other off the ball tbh, as long as they don't go over the top and start wrestling and stuff. But pulling dirty strokes should be cut out, and jabbing with the end of the hurley. Nasty stuff.

Agreed, and he got a yellow for it anyway which was the most he deserved. There's be 20 red cards in a game if that was a red card.

Yer Aul One

Gary Neville wrote: »

I'm not really Gary Neville

Don't ever let anyone tell you that

krazyklown

The way i see it there are two problems caused by a referee not taking action: the immediate one is that if you are provoked in front of the referee and he does nothing about it, then you feel you have to take care of it yourself. When an opponent deliberately sticks their hand into your face, or jab you into the ribs, its intensely provocative and infuriating when it happens in front of a ref who ignores it.

The less immediate problem is that of club players replicating what they see on telly and this can usually lead to more serious situations in the absence of neutral linesmen and umpires to help a referee deal with off the ball stuff. We played a game last weekend where one of our younger players had his helmet ripped off his head in an off the ball incident. His father was doing umpire and went bananas. It led to a very intense situation that culminated in a scuffle which saw one of their players given a straight red. The nonsense stopped immediately, but had the ref not taken appropiate action i am sure the second half would have continued in the same vein.

I love the physicality of hurling - asserting yourself physically is an essential draw of the game (shouldering, not taking a backward step etc) but there is a line that when crossed makes our games appear ugly, unruly and thuggish. Ultimately, somewhere along the line a clown takes it too far and we end up with someone with a serious injury. Just look at that lad that was decked two years ago in a GAA match in the US and ended up in a coma and with a brain injury. A former clubmate of mine lost several teeth in an off the ball incident, where he was struck with a hurl. We need referees who are vigilant and can sense when the temperature is rising and assert their control appropriately. I agree that sanitising hurling is to be avoided but referees shouldnt ignore stuff going on in front of them. A simple verbal warning followed by a card for a subsequent incident should be enough in my opinion to prevent thuggish behaviour occurring during games.

Behind the Fence

(2) Waterford No 14 B O Sullivan pulled accross Cork's D Cahalane - Cahalane wnet down (fairly easily) - there was probably provocation (some may consider that relevant)

Here is the problem though. Cahalane gave O Sullivan the handle of the hurl into his ribs before. Technically a red too. Soft but technically a red. Two reds for each player or tell the two of them to get on with it. I'd take the latter

ArielAtom

JeffKenna wrote: »

Stick to the soccer Gary.

Says an inferior fullback😉

DunedinOg

adrian522 wrote: »

I never mentioned "the High Point of a hurling match". Try reading posts before you respond.

Can read perfectly well thank you, here's what you wrote before:

As I said it would be a pretty poor sport if every-time a bit of pushing and shoving breaks out we are going to have a spate of red cards.

So clearly you feel hurling would be a "pretty poor sport" if we don't allow belting and rutting off the ball. It adds nothing to the game and striking across a guy with your hurley should be a red, plain and simple.

JeffKenna

ArielAtom wrote: »

Says an inferior fullback😉

I'm content with my Premier League medal thanks!

savannahkat

Fair play to Kilkenny at least when we hit it is fair and square and well within the rules. Seems Like Cork and Waterford were playing on the wrong side of the edge.

JeffKenna

savannahkat wrote: »

Fair play to Kilkenny at least when we hit it is fair and square and well within the rules. Seems Like Cork and Waterford were playing on the wrong side of the edge.

Dam right...that time Tommy gave the ref a slap of a hurl...well within the rules.

adrian522

DunedinOg wrote: »

Can read perfectly well thank you, here's what you wrote before:

As I said it would be a pretty poor sport if every-time a bit of pushing and shoving breaks out we are going to have a spate of red cards.

So clearly you feel hurling would be a "pretty poor sport" if we don't allow belting and rutting off the ball. It adds nothing to the game and striking across a guy with your hurley should be a red, plain and simple.

So nothing to do with the high point of the game. Thanks.

I don't know how you deduce that I don't like hurling based on saying that I don't want to see a spate of red cards every time there are a few shoulders given off the ball.

But I guess some people are just going to half read posts and jump to their own conclusions. Carry on anyway.

slingerz

adrian522 wrote: »

If you want to see people "behave" go watch cricket, some of us like a bit of physicality in our sport. If we are going to start dishing out Red Cards every time a player is shouldered and he falls on his arse than it will be a pretty **** sport.

Physicality is fine. striking with the hurley when the ball is nowhere near nor even in play is cowardly and deserving of a red card.

slingerz

Behind the Fence wrote: »

(2) Waterford No 14 B O Sullivan pulled accross Cork's D Cahalane - Cahalane wnet down (fairly easily) - there was probably provocation (some may consider that relevant)

Here is the problem though. Cahalane gave O Sullivan the handle of the hurl into his ribs before. Technically a red too. Soft but technically a red. Two reds for each player or tell the two of them to get on with it. I'd take the latter

i dont know about you but i reckon getting a strike of a hurley into the chest would put most fellas down needing treatment somehow

adrian522

slingerz wrote: »

Physicality is fine. striking with the hurley when the ball is nowhere near nor even in play is cowardly and deserving of a red card.

Not for the first time in this thread I need to repeat myself. I was talking about the shouldering going on after Nash's dodgy penalty. If you feel there should have been red cards brandished there I have to disagree strongly.

To be honest I think a lot of people on this thread and on this forum in general are way over sensitive in relation to what goes on on the field.

hurling is probably cleaner now than it has ever been. Some of the things that went on even 20 years ago are completely unacceptable now. The uproar over relatively minor incidents such as on this thread goes to prove that.

Even the "Striking" mentioned above was pretty tame, minimal force, no chance of injury really. A yellow would have been fine I think.

slingerz

adrian522 wrote: »

Not for the first time in this thread I need to repeat myself. I was talking about the shouldering going on after Nash's dodgy penalty. If you feel there should have been red cards brandished there I have to disagree strongly.

To be honest I think a lot of people on this thread and on this forum in general are way over sensitive in relation to what goes on on the field.

hurling is probably cleaner now than it has ever been. Some of the things that went on even 20 years ago are completely unacceptable now. The uproar over relatively minor incidents such as on this thread goes to prove that.

Even the "Striking" mentioned above was pretty tame, minimal force, no chance of injury really. A yellow would have been fine I think.

The shoulder on Nash after the penalty is a thing of nothing its not even a yellow card for me. However, the referee does need to speak to the player as he has to maintain control on a game and such incidents can light the spark for that to escalate into something more.

The chance of injury doesnt come into the equation with regards to the strike on Cahalane. It is quite clear in the rulebook that you cannot deliberately strike your opponent with the hurley. If there is a 'health and safety concern' over the Nash penalty style then decreeing that striking with the hurley is tame and no chance of injury is ludicrous. The Waterford full forward deserved a red for that strike. Whether it would affect the game as a spectacle or any other garbage spouted by Loughnane doesnt come into the equation.

adrian522

If we were to award frees for every technical infringement in the rule book there would be about 100 frees per game. We need to allow referees some discretion to use common sense at times.

Some of theRed cards issued last season were way over the top in my opinion and only served to ruin a few good games.

slingerz

adrian522 wrote: »

If we were to award frees for every technical infringement in the rule book there would be about 100 frees per game. We need to allow referees some discretion to use common sense at times.

Some of theRed cards issued last season were way over the top in my opinion and only served to ruin a few good games.

Absolutely, there is no comparision between the Horgan red v Limerick or the Shefflin red v Cork and the strike that the Waterford player got away with the last day. It is strikes like those that deserve red cards not the other two incidents listed.

Gary Neville

One of the problems wrt off the ball stuff is that it's like digging half a hole or getting a bit pregnant.

You either stop it or you don't.

People will get belts of hurleys when going for a ball. The refs must decide what's dangerous and red.

However, there can be no argument in favour of hitting an opponent with a hurley, off the ball, it doesn't matter what provocation.

However, I think more that hitting with hurleys OTB should be stamped out. Some lads (subs) come onto to the field, pumped up and go stright to their opponent and hit him a shoulder charge. This can develop into a few slaps with the hurley. We saw Nash getting hit with shoulder charges and blocks in the AI as he went up to take frees/penalties - I don't think that should be allowed. Why should it ?

Last Sunday, O Keefe flopped Nash, as he was remonstrating with the ref. Nash didn't see him coming in. He wasn't braced for a thump and could have got injured - I broke a collar bone in something similar. Cronin then piled in on O Keefe and it kicked off. It wasn't as bad as the Cavan/Armagh game but it could have developed worse. It can often suit the team that's strugging to start something off the ball and stop the other sides momentum.There will be fines and/or suspensions for Cavan and Armagh - but nothing for Cork or Waterford. So the GAA act on a big/medium free for all and not on a small one. Who decides if it's serious enough? Looks like TSG to me. Dunne broke his hand but if Nash had a dislocated shoulder then would we see action ?
It's a physical contact sport - when the ball is in play. IMO there is no excuse for any kind of assaults when the ball is not in play.

If you go up to someone on the street and bowl them over, it's an assault and you could face criminal prosecution. I don't see why we should allow someone do the same thing in a game. It shouldn't be tolerated and a red card would stamp it out once and for all.

JD Dublin

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

Some dirty sneaky strokes have crept into the game - I have no problem with physicality, big hits and sometimes mistimed shoulders but when you call dirty strokes that, then its a different sport you should be at.

Striking is a red - provocation or not, and referees and their team need to be faster to show reds for them. Once a few are shown, then very quickly becomes a cleaner game. TBH I thought Ryan lost control of the game very early, and discipline was going to be an issue - if players think they can get away with it, you do if you think it will give you any sort of an edge

Henry Shefflin got a second yellow and was sent off for one of those sneaky snicks on a player. The situation was that the opposing player was pucking the ball away, Shefflin haadn't a hope in hell of stopping the ball so he clipped his opponent on the back of the hand / fingers. The ref spotted it and gave him a yellow, his second one inthe match which meant Shefflin was sent off. TBH this type of late challenge was raised to an art form by Kilkenny and other teams, who considered it to be part of the game. However refs have clamped down on it. No harm either, it added nothing to the game to see a player fouled as he cleared a ball / made a pass / whatever and was clipped / bodychecked as the ball flew away.

JD Dublin

savannahkat wrote: »

Fair play to Kilkenny at least when we hit it is fair and square and well within the rules. Seems Like Cork and Waterford were playing on the wrong side of the edge.

Ah heeeere - see my earlier post about Henry Shefflin's sending off. No team has a monopoly on saints - or devils.

adrian522

adrian522 wrote: »

If you want to see people "behave" go watch cricket, some of us like a bit of physicality in our sport. If we are going to start dishing out Red Cards every time a player is shouldered and he falls on his arse than it will be a pretty **** sport.

Here's the thing - there's nothing tough or manly about the off the ball bull**** that goes on in GAA (football as well as hurling). It never ceases to amaze me how it is excused as being a 'man's game'. Taking digs when someone's back is turned is what weasely little cowards do, not 'men'.

Rugby is a physical game, but if you start doing that embarrassing bouncing off each other that GAA players seem to think makes them look tough you'd be laughed out of it. Either f**k him or punch him but that nonsense is pathetic.

Martin567

JD Dublin wrote: »

Henry Shefflin got a second yellow and was sent off for one of those sneaky snicks on a player. The situation was that the opposing player was pucking the ball away, Shefflin haadn't a hope in hell of stopping the ball so he clipped his opponent on the back of the hand / fingers. The ref spotted it and gave him a yellow, his second one inthe match which meant Shefflin was sent off. TBH this type of late challenge was raised to an art form by Kilkenny and other teams, who considered it to be part of the game. However refs have clamped down on it. No harm either, it added nothing to the game to see a player fouled as he cleared a ball / made a pass / whatever and was clipped / bodychecked as the ball flew away.

None of that happened! Your post is complete fiction.

Gentleman Off The Pitch

JD Dublin wrote: »

Henry Shefflin got a second yellow and was sent off for one of those sneaky snicks on a player. The situation was that the opposing player was pucking the ball away, Shefflin haadn't a hope in hell of stopping the ball so he clipped his opponent on the back of the hand / fingers. The ref spotted it and gave him a yellow, his second one inthe match which meant Shefflin was sent off. TBH this type of late challenge was raised to an art form by Kilkenny and other teams, who considered it to be part of the game. However refs have clamped down on it. No harm either, it added nothing to the game to see a player fouled as he cleared a ball / made a pass / whatever and was clipped / bodychecked as the ball flew away.

What a clueless, misinformed post! You made it up as you went along. Spoofer

adrian522

Deleted User wrote: »

Here's the thing - there's nothing tough or manly about the off the ball bull**** that goes on in GAA (football as well as hurling). It never ceases to amaze me how it is excused as being a 'man's game'. Taking digs when someone's back is turned is what weasely little cowards do, not 'men'.

Rugby is a physical game, but if you start doing that embarrassing bouncing off each other that GAA players seem to think makes them look tough you'd be laughed out of it. Either f**k him or punch him but that nonsense is pathetic.

Maybe stick to the rugby so.

willietherock

adrian522 wrote: »

Maybe stick to the rugby so.

Just to be clear, in your view deliberately sticking an opponent off the ball with the hurly, as outlined by op is not a sending off offence?