Men and the mother and baby homes

professore

maguic24 wrote: »

I love the way people turn and around and say 'if I was there I wouldn't have let it happen etc, etc.'

I wonder how many of them claim to be atheists but still get their kids baptised etc.

iptba

Interesting article in Irish Times today:

Title: ‘Respectable’ woman’s opinion counted for more than poor family by local government official'

Sub-heading: Voice of the female subject to the committal to Bessborough was not heard at all

Extract:

Within three months of the woman’s committal, her father wrote to the Kerry board of health who were paying for her maintenance stating: “I would like to let you know I want to bring home my daughter . . . and baby.”

[..]

In reply, the neighbour wrote that she “very strongly opposed the girl’s return” home, believing that her parents lacked the “character to control her” and she would “very likely fall again under the evil influences which were instrumental in her downfall”.

Harmful

The neighbour was also of the belief that her presence would be harmful to the younger sisters and the “little girls of the neighbourhood” would be given the “impression that, having been placed under care . . . they could come and go as they please”. She also believed that the “family should moreover remember that the board was paying for the girl’s maintenance”.

Henry9

Given that the womens' families didn't put a stop to it, I fail to see what the father, whether knowing or unknowing could have done about it.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/gene-kerrigan/merely-human-waste-to-be-disposed-of-30337391.html

<modsnip> Massive cut and paste removed, please refrain from this in future

eviltwin

Why are the first couple of posts from this thread missing? The op and some replies are now gone?

ancapailldorcha

eviltwin wrote: »

Why are the first couple of posts from this thread missing? The op and some replies are now gone?

The mods have deleted them, presumably. The OP seemed to be fixated on the idea that men were to blame. Some were, of course but it was more complicated than that.

Henry9

eviltwin wrote: »

Why are the first couple of posts from this thread missing? The op and some replies are now gone?

Plus the OP has undergone a name change in the meantime.

ancapailldorcha

Henry9 wrote: »

Plus the OP has undergone a name change in the meantime.

You can change your username?

Henry9

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

You can change your username?

D'oh, you can but the OP is not the OP anymore

ancapailldorcha

Henry9 wrote: »

D'oh, you can but the OP is not the OP anymore

I know what you meant (the original post in this thread has been removed). I just didn't realise you can change your username.

iptba

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Henry9 wrote:

Plus the OP has undergone a name change in the meantime.

You can change your username?

Original poster still has same username. But the original post has changed so a different post with a different user is now first.

maguic24

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

You can change your username?

Only if you're a subscriber or if you set up a new account.

Fukuyama

The Industrial Schools seem to be forgotten in all this. Perhaps because they housed troublesome boys.

I've had uncles who were in them and they came out, went to England and drank themselves to death. Aside from being beaten and psychologically abused, they also had the kind of abuse that church care is all too notorious for when it comes to boys. I only found the last part out after they had died.

Framing this debate around gender is angering me and is doing nothing for today's women, at least as far as their position with regards to men is concerned. No matter what happens, men are always cast as the evil doers. This perpetuates the usual 'victim' image of women - which, although it gathers sympathy and attention, it's damaging to today's attitudes. It's quite difficult treat people equally if you're told again and again and again they're 'victims'.

We all know that one person who is the poor victim in every story they tell. They gather sympathy like it's fairy dust. It's very difficult to have an attitude that still views them as a strong, capable individual.

I'm convinced that the reason some men treat women differently (the kind of stuff seen in every day sexism) isn't down to outright bigotry like racism, but because they've grown up with mothers who told them to treat women as fragile objects and fathers who taught them how to be a man. So pandering to the notion that women are victims and men are strong, uncaring bullies pretty much reinforces this.

I'm also convinced that the reason some women have an irrational fear of men or a predisposition to cast us as the evil domineers of society is because they were always told the horror stories of rapist taxi drivers, husbands who beat their wives and history's darkest moments involving men. Where as 99% of people are just completely normal and couldn't give a crap what's between your legs.

The fact is that everyone in Ireland knew about these places. Most people kept their mouths shut due to social conditioning. Anyone who stood up against the church at the time would have been ostracized from their community. I also don't think it's an exaggeration that some people might have been happy to see girls shipped off to these 'homes'. How many times have you heard people wish ill upon a person who doesn't conform to societal norms or rejoice when they get their 'comeuppance'?

I'm sure many men and women, upon hearing the news that Mary was sent to the home, had a "serves here right" attitude.

However, Ireland had a population of ~3 million and there are a few thousand serious cases. So it stands to reason that a few thousand mothers, father, whoever, actually participated directly in all this. Not exactly a representative sample of 'men' or 'women' - just society.

Justice should run its course for this but 'men' shouldn't be put in the dock.

mariaalice

I haven't gone any when nor changed my name, perhaps I could have phrased what I said better but don't know why the thread has been changed.

visual

The thread flow and contex has been altered and thus has a different meaning than the original.

For this reason Im out.

Pawwed Rig

eviltwin wrote: »

Why are the first couple of posts from this thread missing? The op and some replies are now gone?

Mod note - Sorry guys. That is my fault. I made a bit of a mess of things earlier and a deleted a few things by accident. I am trying to recover them

Ok Guys I think everything is back where it was. I had inadvertently moved the first three posts to our beers thread. If anyone notices anything else missing please PM me. Apologies

Sauve

Dude you gotta stop drinking on the job :rolleyes:





:pac:

Lou.m

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Mod note - Sorry guys. That is my fault. I made a bit of a mess of things earlier and a deleted a few things by accident. I am trying to recover them

Ok Guys I think everything is back where it was. I had inadvertently moved the first three posts to our beers thread. If anyone notices anything else missing please PM me. Apologies

Ah god love ya ....yis do a great job :-)

We never say thanks..

Thanks

Ever the lick I am.

Lou.m

maguic24 wrote: »

Evil, evil men!!

On a serious note, you can't just blame one gender for what happened. It was society at the time, women were just as much responsible as men for what happened.

I love the way people turn and around and say 'if I was there I wouldn't have let it happen etc, etc.' You have to understand the amount of influence that the catholic church had at that time in Ireland. It's like me as a woman going out to Saudi Arabia tomorrow, not wearing a burka and driving a car. No, ta! I know that is an extreme example but just try to picture it from their perspective! If you went against the grain prepare to be punished and shunned by society.

The families could have stepped in and told the church to F off but no doubt they would suffer the consequences. I am not trying to defend the actions of these people in any way, shape or form, it was truly disgusting!! I am only trying to point out why it occurred.

I see your point OP about men being responsible for pregnancies but people were so ignorant at that time. It was always the woman's fault as they were the 'temptation'. You must also remember that a huge amount of men suffered during them times as well in industrial schools and having a pregnant gf carrying their babies shipped off to one of these homes.

I don't blame men. I blame the church to a certain extent but I blame society the most!!

Men nor women were to blame ...it was the church ..it's ethics and control.

Lou.m

Dean0088 wrote: »

The Industrial Schools seem to be forgotten in all this. Perhaps because they housed troublesome boys.

I've had uncles who were in them and they came out, went to England and drank themselves to death. Aside from being beaten and psychologically abused, they also had the kind of abuse that church care is all too notorious for when it comes to boys. I only found the last part out after they had died.

Framing this debate around gender is angering me and is doing nothing for today's women, at least as far as their position with regards to men is concerned. No matter what happens, men are always cast as the evil doers. This perpetuates the usual 'victim' image of women - which, although it gathers sympathy and attention, it's damaging to today's attitudes. It's quite difficult treat people equally if you're told again and again and again they're 'victims'.

We all know that one person who is the poor victim in every story they tell. They gather sympathy like it's fairy dust. It's very difficult to have an attitude that still views them as a strong, capable individual.

I'm convinced that the reason some men treat women differently (the kind of stuff seen in every day sexism) isn't down to outright bigotry like racism, but because they've grown up with mothers who told them to treat women as fragile objects and fathers who taught them how to be a man. So pandering to the notion that women are victims and men are strong, uncaring bullies pretty much reinforces this.

I'm also convinced that the reason some women have an irrational fear of men or a predisposition to cast us as the evil domineers of society is because they were always told the horror stories of rapist taxi drivers, husbands who beat their wives and history's darkest moments involving men. Where as 99% of people are just completely normal and couldn't give a crap what's between your legs.

The fact is that everyone in Ireland knew about these places. Most people kept their mouths shut due to social conditioning. Anyone who stood up against the church at the time would have been ostracized from their community. I also don't think it's an exaggeration that some people might have been happy to see girls shipped off to these 'homes'. How many times have you heard people wish ill upon a person who doesn't conform to societal norms or rejoice when they get their 'comeuppance'?

I'm sure many men and women, upon hearing the news that Mary was sent to the home, had a "serves here right" attitude.

However, Ireland had a population of ~3 million and there are a few thousand serious cases. So it stands to reason that a few thousand mothers, father, whoever, actually participated directly in all this. Not exactly a representative sample of 'men' or 'women' - just society.

Justice should run its course for this but 'men' shouldn't be put in the dock.

I know of a an elderly who was in an Industrial school. He received financial compensation and redress and an apology.

They were not troublesome boys they were usually boys from homes that could not afford them. They usually had done nothing wrong at all. But a family had to many mouths to feed. Sad. That was what happened to the man I knew. His parents could not afford to feed the kids they had and could not stop having kids. He was one of 11.

He was never a troublemaker at all. He just had no where to go.

They vilified these men and women...the women were whores and the men were bad...it excused the way they treated them.

The whole women are whores and men are bad theme seems to leak into society from Christianity...a lot of men in the 50's in this country are now writing about how the church's attitude towards love and sex damaged male society. And still does in a way. Women are whores..the women who are whores are beneath the rest of society...men are bad...women who like them are whores ...women only like bad men...cuz women are whores.

It is the false dichotomy of the virgin/ whore or nice guy /bad guy.

diveout

Lou.m wrote: »

I know of a an elderly who was in an Industrial school. He received financial compensation and redress and an apology.

They were not troublesome boys they were usually boys from homes that could not afford them. They usually had done nothing wrong at all. But a family had to many mouths to feed. Sad. That was what happened to the man I knew. His parents could not afford to feed the kids they had and could not stop having kids. He was one of 11.

He was never a troublemaker at all. He just had no where to go.

They vilified these men and women...the women were whores and the men were bad...it excused the way they treated them.

The whole women are whores and men are bad theme seems to leak into society from Christianity...a lot of men in the 50's in this country are now writing about how the church's attitude towards love and sex damaged male society. And still does in a way. Women are whores..the women who are whores are beneath the rest of society...men are bad...women who like them are whores ...women only like bad men...cuz women are whores.

It is the false dichotomy of the virgin/ whore or nice guy /bad guy.

It's repressed eroticism that curdles into violence.

pwurple

Lou.m wrote: »

Men nor women were to blame ...it was the church ..it's ethics and control.

Handy you have it all tied up there. I think it was more a horrific crossover of victorian prudishness, mixed with De Valera staunch conservativeness (who, you recall, gave the church it's 'special' place in the constitution and in the running of the state). I wonder what the country would have looked like had Michael Collins not been shot...

I honestly don't know, but did this kind of thing, industrial schools, laundries, happen in other catholic countries, like spain and portugal? Or was it just ireland? I know there were workhouses and industrial schools in the UK... It's that almost protestant attitude of atonement and working off your sins which was being enforced here.

One of my aunts was a baby from one of these homes. She never knew who her parents were, even as she was dying, her adoptive mother would not tell her, even though apparently she knew the family.

I think it was obviously both women and men who took part in this. These women had mothers and fathers, and lovers and siblings... Women were brought to these places and left there with no money for board. Forced to then work off that debt by working the laundries etc. similar to what happened to boys in the industrial schools. Undesirables were simply removed from society, hidden away. Secrets were kept, fiercely.

And it is similar, as it was noted earlier, to what happened to those with any kind of disability or mental health issue. The cork mental institution is a MASSIVE building. The longest building in europe I think? How many people must it have housed? Thousands? And for what reason were they incarcerated? No doubt we will hear many scandals from those places in years to come as well.

diveout

pwurple wrote: »

Handy you have it all tied up there. I think it was more a horrific crossover of victorian prudishness, mixed with De Valera staunch conservativeness (who, you recall, gave the church it's 'special' place in the constitution and in the running of the state). I wonder what the country would have looked like had Michael Collins not been shot...

I honestly don't know, but did this kind of thing, industrial schools, laundries, happen in other catholic countries, like spain and portugal? Or was it just ireland? I know there were workhouses and industrial schools in the UK... It's that almost protestant attitude of atonement and working off your sins which was being enforced here.

One of my aunts was a baby from one of these homes. She never knew who her parents were, even as she was dying, her adoptive mother would not tell her, even though apparently she knew the family.

I think it was obviously both women and men who took part in this. These women had mothers and fathers, and lovers and siblings... Women were brought to these places and left there with no money for board. Forced to then work off that debt by working the laundries etc. similar to what happened to boys in the industrial schools. Undesirables were simply removed from society, hidden away. Secrets were kept, fiercely.

And it is similar, as it was noted earlier, to what happened to those with any kind of disability or mental health issue. The cork mental institution is a MASSIVE building. The longest building in europe I think? How many people must it have housed? Thousands? And for what reason were they incarcerated? No doubt we will hear many scandals from those places in years to come as well.

The Latin countries did not have the same literal reverance as the Irish did, nor did they have the prudery. What you had in Ireland was religious fundamentalism. It was facism and Jesus was its poster boy, social eugenics included.

For the Italians it was their hipocracy that saved them

aujopimur

.

Also, a woman's life wasn't necessarily ruined - once a child was given up for adoption, women generally left such homes as I understand .[/QUOTE]

I can tell you it certainly made a lifelong difference to my mothers life, and not for the better.

Santa Cruz

Yawn

pwurple

diveout wrote: »

The Latin countries did not have the same literal reverance as the Irish did, nor did they have the prudery. What you had in Ireland was religious fundamentalism. It was facism and Jesus was its poster boy, social eugenics included.

For the Italians it was their hipocracy that saved them

Certainly I can't understand how the nuns and brothers did such unbelievably unchristian things. Awful cruelty. When yiu think back on it too, so many people went into religious orders for probably the completely wrong reasons. Being the unmarriable sister in a family, or having no inheritance to pass to a family. No doubt some extremely nasty people were in there. But it was much more than religious fundamentalism, because christianity says nothing about taking babies off pregnant women and selling them to americans. Or forcing young mothers to cut grass with a scissors.

There was a demand for this kind of institution, just as there is a hangover of it today when you hear calls for people in prisions to be put to hard labour, or corporal punishment being brought back to schools. Society just wanted rid of lusty women, troublesome boys and those considered mentally 'iffy'. They were to atone for their 'crimes', which were more likely to be ignorance, than anything else. The national level of education, especially rurally, was so very low. Most probably had no idea whatsoever about sex education. No doubt there were cases of sexual abuse there as well, hidden in this way.

Those deemed unfit were to be swept out of sight, and the religious orders, especially those with missions of Health or Education, took this to be their remit. People knew what was happening, but there was a sense that it was for the public good to remove these undesireables, same as criminals.

I spoke to my late grandfather about this when he was alive. They delivered food to the laundries, and sent in uniforms to be cleaned. He saw the women in there, and knew exactly what they were there for. Same as people knew that boys in industrial schools were being beaten senselesss. It was even a threat in the schools and homes... Behave or you will end up in one of these places.

diveout

pwurple wrote: »

Certainly I can't understand how the nuns and brothers did such unbelievably unchristian things. Awful cruelty. When yiu think back on it too, so many people went into religious orders for probably the completely wrong reasons. Being the unmarriable sister in a family, or having no inheritance to pass to a family. No doubt some extremely nasty people were in there. But it was much more than religious fundamentalism, because christianity says nothing about taking babies off pregnant women and selling them to americans. Or forcing young mothers to cut grass with a scissors.

There was a demand for this kind of institution, just as there is a hangover of it today when you hear calls for people in prisions to be put to hard labour, or corporal punishment being brought back to schools. Society just wanted rid of lusty women, troublesome boys and those considered mentally 'iffy'. They were to atone for their 'crimes', which were more likely to be ignorance, than anything else. The national level of education, especially rurally, was so very low. Most probably had no idea whatsoever about sex education. No doubt there were cases of sexual abuse there as well, hidden in this way.

Those deemed unfit were to be swept out of sight, and the religious orders, especially those with missions of Health or Education, took this to be their remit. People knew what was happening, but there was a sense that it was for the public good to remove these undesireables, same as criminals.

I spoke to my late grandfather about this when he was alive. They delivered food to the laundries, and sent in uniforms to be cleaned. He saw the women in there, and knew exactly what they were there for. Same as people knew that boys in industrial schools were being beaten senselesss. It was even a threat in the schools and homes... Behave or you will end up in one of these places.

I had two family members who did not go to industrial schools, but reputable schools for upper middle class boys and they got beaten senseless. One joked, "the molestations were better than the beatings."

Pervasive sickness.

pwurple

diveout wrote: »

I had two family members who did not go to industrial schools, but reputable schools for upper middle class boys and they got beaten senseless. One joked, "the molestations were better than the beatings."

Pervasive sickness.

Corporal punishment is not gone that long! My husband was hit in class with an iron bar. That's only the 80's. Have a look back through the threads in this forum, plenty think it should be brought back. There is societal appetite for cruelty.

Neyite

The other possible reason for men not being involved was the fact that they were of a different religion, or divorced. So even if he wanted to marry her, if he was protestant, it would never be allowed by families, and society.

That was one couple in a book I'm reading. She worked in a place where Fr. Cleary worked, and became pregnant to a divorced protestant from The Netherlands. She wasnt in crisis, they were in love and planned to marry, but she was duped into going to one of these homes, and her boyfriend, despite banging on doors, writing letters etc, never saw her until many years later and never saw his child until adulthood as the baby was a forced adoption.

I would imagine that, excluding cases of pregnancy through rape, incest or extra-marital affairs, a lot of men would have stepped up to their responsibility, but quite often family got wind of the plans and forcibly removed the woman, perhaps tricking her into going somewhere then if he did call to these homes, he was turned away even if he knew she was in there.

NordieSteve

I cannot for the life of me, understand how or why people would allow their sons or daughters anywhere near these places. I mean, where people really that unashamedly needing to be a part of the furniture in catholic Ireland that they would allow their children to go to these places? I can't imagine anyone would escape with their lives if they laid a finger on any of my kids let alone shipping them off to christian brother schools or Laundries.

Men and Women are responsible for this abomination of an era.

diveout

NordieSteve wrote: »

I cannot for the life of me, understand how or why people would allow their sons or daughters anywhere near these places. I mean, where people really that unashamedly needing to be a part of the furniture in catholic Ireland that they would allow their children to go to these places? I can't imagine anyone would escape with their lives if they laid a finger on any of my kids let alone shipping them off to christian brother schools or Laundries.

Men and Women are responsible for this abomination of an era.

Maybe children were viewed differently. Look at how much parenting has changed and what we expect from parents.

Look at how many people send their kids off to boarding schools.