ECPR draw: 12pm Tuesday 10th June; epcrugby.com, SS News, TG4

thomond2006

Saracens, RC Toulon and Leinster Rugby are guaranteed top seeding when the pool draw for the inaugural European Rugby Champions Cup takes place at the Stade de la Maladière in Neuchatel, Switzerland on Tuesday (10th June).

Watch the draw live on epcrugby.com and follow @epcrugby
This event will get underway with the pool draw for the 2014/15 European Rugby Challenge Cup at 12.00pm (UK and Irish time) which will be followed immediately by the draw for the European Rugby Champions Cup pools.

Both draws will be broadcast live on the new epcrugby.com and by btsport.com, Sky Sports News, TG4. You can also follow the action on twitter @epcrugby using #ERCCPoolDraw

Craig Doyle of BT Sport and Raphael Ibanez will be joint comperes in Neuchatel with former London Wasps and RC Toulon star, Simon Shaw, and Sky Sports' Welsh legend, Scott Quinnell, on hand to conduct the draws.
Twenty clubs from the Aviva Premiership, the Top 14 and the Pro12 have booked their places in the 2014/15 European Rugby Champions Cup, and for the first time, the clubs have qualified on merit.

For the purposes of the pool draw, the Aviva Premiership clubs are ranked according to their finishing positions in the League table, so Saracens are top seeds with Northampton Saints ranked number two.

The Top 14 and Pro12 clubs are ranked based on their League performances and on their qualification for the knockout phases of their championships. So reigning European and Top 14 champions, RC Toulon, and Pro12 champions, Leinster Rugby, are also confirmed among the top seeds.

The 20 clubs will be divided into four tiers of five based on their qualification positions from the Leagues. A draw will be conducted in advance to establish Tier 1 with two of the three second-ranked clubs - Northampton Saints, Castres Olympique and Glasgow Warriors - joining Saracens, Toulon and Leinster in the top tier.

Once Tier 1 has been established, the remaining three tiers will fall into place. Then the draw for the five pools will be made, and during the draw, some clubs may have to be placed directly into a pool in order to ensure that certain key principles apply (see below).

In Tier 4, Sale Sharks and London Wasps will be drawn into pools which contain one other Aviva Premiership club, and Toulouse will be drawn into a pool which contains one other Top 14 club.

Stade Francais Paris, Exeter Chiefs and Cardiff Blues are confirmed among the top seeds for the 2014/15 European Rugby Challenge Cup which will be conducted on similar lines with four tiers and five pools.
In Tier 4, Oyonnax, Lyon and La Rochelle-ASR will be drawn into pools which contain one other Top 14 club.

European Rugby Champions Cup qualification

For the purposes of creating the tiers, the Aviva Premiership clubs are ranked based on their League table finishing positions in advance of the knockout phase. The Top 14 and Pro12 clubs are ranked based on their League performances and on their qualification for the knockout phases. For clubs which did not qualify for the knockout phases of their Leagues, or which were eliminated at the same stage of the knockout phase, rankings are decided by League table finishing positions.

Rank Premiership Top 14 Pro 12
1 Saracens RC Toulon Leinster Rugby

2 Northampton Saints Castres Olympique Glasgow Warriors

3 Leicester Tigers Montpellier Munster Rugby

4 Harlequins Racing Metro 92 Ulster Rugby

5 Bath Rugby ASM Clermont Auvergne Ospreys

6 Sale Sharks Toulouse Scarlets

7 London Wasps Benetton Treviso

European Rugby Challenge Cup qualification

For the purposes of creating the tiers, the clubs are ranked based on their finishing positions in the Top 14, Aviva Premiership, Pro12 and PRO D2 Leagues, or on their qualification via a play-off.

Rank Top 14 Premiership Pro 12 Qualifying
1 Stade Francais Exeter Chiefs Cardiff Blues FIRA-AER 1
2 Bordeaux-Bègles Gloucester Rugby Edinburgh Rugby FIRA-AER 2
3 Brive London Irish NG Dragons
4 Bayonne Newcastle Falcons Connacht Rugby
5 Grenoble London Welsh Zebre
6 Oyonnax
7 Lyon
8 La Rochelle-ASR

EPCR pool draws - key principles

The 20 clubs are divided into four tiers based on their qualification position from their Leagues. This will be done where necessary by a draw.

Each of the five pools will have at least one club from each of the three Leagues.

Each of the five pools will have one club from each of the four tiers.

There will be no more than two clubs from the same League in a pool.

No pool will contain two Pro12 clubs from the same country.

Clubs from the same League will be kept apart until the allocation of the Tier 4 clubs

http://www.ercrugby.com/news/28791.php#.U5SUjPldWSo

I'm not sure how Tier 2 and Tier 3 simply "fall into place" as suggested above, there would need to be another draw. Leinster are definitely in Tier 1, Munster are definitely in Tier 2 while Ulster can be in Tier 2 or Tier 3 (open to correction!!!).

The last five sides in the ranking will presumably make up Tier 4: Sale, Wasps, Toulouse, Scarlets and Treviso.

Toulouse will have to be drawn with another French side, Sale and Wasps will be have to be drawn with another English side and finally Scarlets and Treviso will have to be drawn with another Pro12 team.

I look forward to a pool of Toulon, Munster, Bath and Toulouse! I suppose an 'easy' pool for Munster would be with Castres, Harlequins and Treviso.

Neil3030

Great info, thanks!

umop.episdn

Toulon & Toulouse.... "Twitches"

robluvshandegg

Leinster, Leicester, Clermont, Toulouse is possible as far as I can see.

Neil3030

So I'm assuming it will be:

Tier 1:
Aviva 1st
Pro12 Winners
Top 14 Winners
Aviva 2nd / Pro12 Runner Up / Top 14 Runner Up (determined by a draw)
Aviva 2nd / Pro12 Runner Up / Top 14 Runner Up (determined by a draw)

Let's call the team who lose out on that 2/3 draw the Tier 1 Loser

Tier 2:
Tier 1 Loser
Aviva 3rd
Pro12 Losing SF 1
Top 14 Losing SF 1
Aviva 4th / Top 14 Losing SF 2 / Pro12 Losing SF 2 (determined by a draw)

Let's call the two teams who lose out on that 1/3 draw the Tier 2 Losers

Tier 3:
Tier 2 Loser
Tier 2 Loser
Aviva 5th
Pro12 5th
Top 14 Losing QF 1

Tier 4:
Aviva 6th
Pro12 6th
Top 14 Losing QF 2
Pro12 7th
Playoff winner

Neil3030

Or in real terms for this season:

Tier 1:
Sarries
Leinster
Toulon
Saints / Glasgow / Castres (determined by a draw)
Saints / Glasgow / Castres (determined by a draw)

Tier 2:
Saints / Glasgow / Castres (determined by a draw)
Tigers
Munster
Montpellier
Quinns / Racing / Ulster (determined by a draw)

Tier 3:
Quinns / Racing / Ulster (determined by a draw)
Quinns / Racing / Ulster (determined by a draw)
Bath
Ospreys
Clermont

Tier 4:
Sale
Scarlets
Toulouse
Treviso
Wasps

P_1

So despite Castres coming 6th in the Top 14 they are the 2nd French seed by dint of them getting to the final while Northampton, despite winning the AP final are actually the English seed by dint of them finishing 2nd in the AP league.

Some real bears of pools are possible with that tiering.

.ak

Calling it now, Leinster, Glasgow, Racing and Sale.

P_1

.ak wrote: »

Calling it now, Leinster, Glasgow, Racing and Sale.

Yes please

Neil3030

.ak wrote: »

Calling it now, Leinster, Glasgow, Racing and Sale.

Leinster can't get Glasgow. Teams from the same league are separated until seed 4.

robluvshandegg

.ak wrote: »

Calling it now, Leinster, Glasgow, Racing and Sale.

"Clubs from the same League will be kept apart until the allocation of the Tier 4 clubs"

So Glasgow is impossible no matter what happens.

Neil3030

Leinster, Racing, Bath, Treviso is theoretically possible.

Swiwi.

Neil3030 wrote: »

Leinster, Racing, Bath, Treviso is theoretically possible.

If you're good enough you're good enough. I hate this hoping for a weak pool stuff. Leinster v Treviso has minimal appeal.

Neil3030

Leinster
Guaranteed 1st Tier. I make their best case to be:

Leinster, Racing, Bath, Treviso

worst case:

Leinster, Saints, Clermont, Toulouse :eek:

Munster
Guaranteed Tier 2. Best case scenario they get:

Castres, Munster, Bath, Treviso

worst case scenario they get:

Saints, Munster, Clermont, Toulouse or Toulon, Munster, Quinns, Toulouse

Ulster
33% chance of being in Tier 2. Best and worst case scenarios identical to Munster.

Should they be drawn in Tier 3:

Best: Castres, Quinns, Ulster, Treviso
Worst: Toulon, Saints, Ulster, Toulouse :eek:

Tox56

Swiwi. wrote: »

If you're good enough you're good enough. I hate this hoping for a weak pool stuff. Leinster v Treviso has minimal appeal.

I suppose but one slip up in by far the toughest group left Leinster with an away trip to Toulon. I think it's fair to say given the choice they'd have preferred Toulon on neutral ground (although in this particular instance it probably wouldn't have made a difference). Appeal is one thing, silverware is another

Swiwi.

Tox56 wrote: »

I suppose but one slip up in by far the toughest group left Leinster with an away trip to Toulon. I think it's fair to say given the choice they'd have preferred Toulon on neutral ground (although in this particular instance it probably wouldn't have made a difference). Appeal is one thing, silverware is another

I guess ends justifies the means. Getting out of Neil3030's pool of death (Toulouse, NH etc) and winning would be far more satisfying than whipping Treviso home and away, though.

Neil3030

Swiwi. wrote: »

I guess ends justifies the means. Getting out of Neil3030's pool of death (Toulouse, NH etc) and winning would be far more satisfying than whipping Treviso home and away, though.

That'll be the name of my new online chat show.

Tox56

Swiwi. wrote: »

I guess ends justifies the means. Getting out of Neil3030's pool of death (Toulouse, NH etc) and winning would be far more satisfying than whipping Treviso home and away, though.

True, but I don't think anyone was complaining with the relatively straightforward group in 2012. Although I'll admit the fact the path in 2011 was insanely difficult was a sweetener

errlloyd

robluvshandegg wrote: »

"Clubs from the same League will be kept apart until the allocation of the Tier 4 clubs"

So Glasgow is impossible no matter what happens.

Maybe I'm wrong, but does that mean the rabo leader will often benefit from an Italian team in the group.

robluvshandegg

errlloyd wrote: »

Maybe I'm wrong, but does that mean the rabo leader will often benefit from an Italian team in the group.

As long as the Italian team is in Tier 4, then every team has an equal chance of getting them, so there is no advantage/disadvantage regarding getting an Italian team for Pro 12 winners. The ways the pools have been set up is 1 Pro 12, 1 English, 1 French, 1 Random Tier 4. Actually means guaranteed no Irish will play Glasgow or Ospreys.

ArmaniJeanss

robluvshandegg wrote: »

As long as the Italian team is in Tier 4, then every team has an equal chance of getting them.

Not quite true, Ospreys have a better chance of getting Treviso than anyone else in the competition has.

as they can't get Scarlets from that pool, so they've a 25% chance of getting Treviso, everyone else its a 20% chance of getting Treviso.

robluvshandegg

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Not quite true, Ospreys have a better chance of getting Treviso than anyone else in the competition has.

as they can't get Scarlets from that pool, so they've a 25% chance of getting Treviso, everyone else its a 20% chance of getting Treviso.

"No pool will contain two Pro12 clubs from the same country."

Forgot about that! Thanks! Means more incentive to get Connacht to qualify!!

Fireball07

Neil3030 wrote: »

Leinster can't get Glasgow. Teams from the same league are separated until seed 4.

That's bad news for Munster if Glasgow are top seeds...


Will be tough no matter what happens. Our poor end to the season hurts us more than ever now.

thomond2006

Toulon, Saints, Ulster and Toulouse is possible. That would be a great pool!

Riskymove

I'm hoping for Bath for the "Great Stringer Homecoming"

Riskymove

Fireball07 wrote: »

That's bad news for Munster if Glasgow are top seeds...

yep, definitely want Glasgow to get a top berth

Neil3030

Fireball07 wrote: »

That's bad news for Munster if Glasgow are top seeds...


Will be tough no matter what happens. Our poor end to the season hurts us more than ever now.

Riskymove wrote: »

yep, definitely want Glasgow to get a top berth

How does glasgow's seeding affect munster?

Riskymove

Neil3030 wrote: »

How does glasgow's seeding affect munster?

If Glasgow get into tier one then a french or english team (Castres and Norths) will be in Munster's tier and therefore we cant get them in our group

on the other thread someone also suggested that the last seed in Tier 2 will come "as a package" if you like...if that is correct then we'd avoid 2 french or english teams

the flip side is that it means we we would definitely be in either saracens, Touloun or Norths/Castres group...

Neil3030

Riskymove wrote: »

If Glasgow get into tier one then a french or english team (Castres and Norths) will be in Munster's tier and therefore we cant get them in our group

on the other thread someone also suggested that the last seed in Tier 2 will come "as a package" if you like...if that is correct then we'd avoid 2 french or english teams

the flip side is that it means we we would definitely be in either saracens, Touloun or Norths/Castres group...

Well let's cut a deal, Glasgow can have one of the Tier one spots, if Saints can have the other (from Leinster's perspective)

thomond2006

From a Munster POV I'd take Castres over Glasgow. Glasgow's recent record against Munster is excellent.

Riskymove

thomond2006 wrote: »

From a Munster POV I'd take Castres over Glasgow. Glasgow's recent record against Munster is excellent.

as i understand it we cannot get Glasgow

we can only get a second team from the same league from Tier 4


so Basically our group is

1 saracens, Toulon or Norths/Castres

2 Munster

3 is very complicated based on who gets drawn into tier 1 and 2

3 Quins, Bath, Racing or...gulp.... clermont

4. any of the 5 until other teams are known

Riskymove

Neil3030 wrote: »

Well let's cut a deal, Glasgow can have one of the Tier one spots, if Saints can have the other (from Leinster's perspective)

that would mean Castres and Racing in Tier 2 so I'd be happy enough

Tox56

thomond2006 wrote: »

From a Munster POV I'd take Castres over Glasgow. Glasgow's recent record against Munster is excellent.

Yeah I would have feared Glasgow more in Leinster's group last season than Castres

thomond2006

Riskymove wrote: »

as i understand it we cannot get Glasgow

we can only get a second team from the same league from Tier 4


so Basically our group is

1 saracens, Toulon or Norths/Castres

2 Munster

3 is very complicated based on who gets drawn into tier 1 and 2

3 Quins, Bath, Racing or...gulp.... clermont

4. any of the 5 until other teams are known

I'd take Clermont over Racing. I think Clermont's decline has started, Racing have turned a corner since the New Year and have brought in some quality signings for next season. Plus I really want a trip to Clermont!

Rightwing

I don't know if this new competition will be as appealing as the H cup. Mind numbing stuff cutting the teams down to 20.

vienne86

Well it is hard to see any easy pool....which I suppose was part of the idea of reducing the competition to 20 teams. It's wrecking my head trying to figure out the combinations, so I think I'll just wait until tomorrow!

irishbucsfan

Rightwing wrote: »

I don't know if this new competition will be as appealing as the H cup. Mind numbing stuff cutting the teams down to 20.

It will be, you can be sure of it. And no it wasn't mind numbing, it was completely justified as the ERC competitions were overstretched, quite easy to understand that.

The Lost Sheep

vienne86 wrote: »

Well it is hard to see any easy pool....which I suppose was part of the idea of reducing the competition to 20 teams. It's wrecking my head trying to figure out the combinations, so I think I'll just wait until tomorrow!

There is still small chances of an "easy pool". If you want a look at combinations and you want to wreck your head:pac: then look at this thread on MF's and look to posts by Piquet who has a lot of permutations etc worked out

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It will be, you can be sure of it. And no it wasn't mind numbing, it was completely justified as the ERC competitions were overstretched, quite easy to understand that.

It will be once tournament starts and we're back playing rugby but until then I think we will see plenty more posts like that.
It was probably justified but manner they did it is the issue..

awec

thomond2006 wrote: »

Toulon, Saints, Ulster and Toulouse is possible. That would be a great pool!

It really wouldn't.

former legend

I'm happy with the reduction to 20 teams, if only because it means 5 pool winners and 3 runners up qualify, rather than the 6 + 2 system of the HEC, in which you could always predict the pools from which the runners up would qualify. I think this system will reward the best 8 teams, rather than the best 6 and 2 who got the Italians...

As for fans "buying into it", that's a load of nonsense, everyone will be just as into it as they were with the HC, the difference is that Irish teams won't win it as often so it's handy to be able to say "yerrah I wasn't that pushed anyway, we won it when it mattered".

thomond2006

If Irish fans don't buy into it...what's left? The Pro12?! Enjoy the annual sleepwalk to the playoffs there folks.

There won't be any difference in mindset between the Champions Cup and the Heineken Cup.

Swiwi.

Of course everyone will buy into it. If anything it's going to be even better with less of the deadwood teams in the pool stages. I only hope it doesn't become a procession of rich French & English teams winning it - leaving Irish teams aside imagine if a Glasgow or Cardiff won it.

Riskymove

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

There is still small chances of an "easy pool".

well apart from who gets Treviso, the issue of easy groups really comes down to how seriously the French teams take it

like before, many groups can look difficult on paper but don't turn out that way

As a Munster fan, I think the reality today is going to be a fairly tough group regardless. The chances are the likes of Toulon or Sarries will be the 1st team and Quins or Racing as the 3rd.

former legend

Riskymove wrote: »

As a Munster fan, I think the reality today is going to be a fairly tough group regardless. The chances are the likes of Toulon or Sarries will be the 1st team and Quins or Racing as the 3rd.

The big unknown is how the French teams like Castres and Racing, who traditionally were less interested in Europe, approach the new tournament.

So for Munster to draw Castres as their top seed might be brilliant or it might mean a hellish trip to the south of France.

That said, the best possible draw for Munster or Ulster is:

Castres (if they are indeed top seed)
Munster/Ulster
Bath
Treviso

That is not 'an easy group' by any stretch.

The fact that Ulster could conceivably end up with Toulon, Northampton and Toulouse doesn't bear thinking about.

ssaye2

Feed for later


http://live.epcrugby.com/eng/player1.php

thomond2006

Tier 1: Leinster, Toulon, Saracens, Saints, Castres
Tier 2: Glasgow, Munster, Leicester, Montpellier, Harlequins
Tier 3: Ulster, Racing, Clermont, Bath, Ospreys
Tier 4: Sale, Toulouse, Scarlets, Wasps, Treviso

In this instance of tiers, if Toulon or Castres were to draw Munster from Tier 2 then the tier 3 team would have to be Bath right?

Podge_irl

This photo on the Leinster facebook page would imply Saints are the team in the second tier.

Riskymove

thomond2006 wrote: »

In this instance of tiers, if Toulon or Castres were to draw Munster from Tier 2 then the tier 3 team would have to be Bath right?

it's been suggested that the teams in tier 2 will be a package

i.e. if glasgow lose out and go into tier 2 then Ulster also join tier 2

if castres lose go into tier 2 then so do Racing etc

so therefore Quins and Bath would both be in tier 3 and we'd get one of them

former legend

thomond2006 wrote: »

Tier 1: Leinster, Toulon, Saracens, Saints, Castres
Tier 2: Glasgow, Munster, Leicester, Montpellier, Harlequins
Tier 3: Ulster, Racing, Clermont, Bath, Ospreys
Tier 4: Sale, Toulouse, Scarlets, Wasps, Treviso

In this instance of tiers, if Toulon or Castres were to draw Munster from Tier 2 then the tier 3 team would have to be Bath right?

Correct. There is only an 11% chance of that happening though.

Riskymove

Podge_irl wrote: »

This photo on the Leinster facebook page would imply Saints are the team in the second tier.

from the colour scheme I'd say that's a file photo from HEC days

Toulouse are not in Tier 1 this year

former legend

Podge_irl wrote: »

This photo on the Leinster facebook page would imply Saints are the team in the second tier.

And that Toulouse are in the first tier, so I wouldn't rely on that...