Dalits and the discrimination they face

tritium

(For the mods- I know there's a specific thread about the recent shameful incident, however this is aimed at discussing the more general topic if that's OK)

The recent rape and lynching of two girls in India brought violent crime in that part of the world into focus. Unfortunately in the rush to squeeze the coverage into various agendas there seems to have been a tendency to miss the massive underlying problem of caste discrimination at the heart of this and many other violent crimes there. For those not aware, the girls were Dalits, the lowest of the low in Indian society- untouchable. This ethnic group faces a level of discrimination that really does make first world discrimination look like a first world problem. See the article linked below for an example of how they are treated in society.

I suppose in terms of discussing this I'd ask two questions. Firstly why in the information age is this kind of thing largely going on unknown to the wider world population. It can't be just out of sight therefore our if mind given the focus we have on many (argueably) less severe issues elsewhere

Secondly, why is it that it when it does get raised its inevitable as part of promoting some other agenda rather than with a view to fixing something so obviously and vastly wrong.

Its an old article but a quick glance through Google will show a trend that extends to the current day. I've only pasted in part as its rather long but the link is to the full story.


http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/06/0602_030602_untouchables.html

"
India's "Untouchables" Face Violence, Discrimination
Hillary Mayell
for National Geographic News
June 2, 2003
More than 160 million people in India are considered "Untouchable"—people tainted by their birth into a caste system that deems them impure, less than human.

Human rights abuses against these people, known as Dalits, are legion. A random sampling of headlines in mainstream Indian newspapers tells their story: "Dalit boy beaten to death for plucking flowers"; "Dalit tortured by cops for three days"; "Dalit 'witch' paraded naked in Bihar"; "Dalit killed in lock-up at Kurnool"; "7 Dalits burnt alive in caste clash"; "5 Dalits lynched in Haryana"; "Dalit woman gang-raped, paraded naked"; "Police egged on mob to lynch Dalits".

"Dalits are not allowed to drink from the same wells, attend the same temples, wear shoes in the presence of an upper caste, or drink from the same cups in tea stalls," said Smita Narula, a senior researcher with Human Rights Watch, and author of Broken People: Caste Violence Against India's "Untouchables." Human Rights Watch is a worldwide activist organization based in New York.

India's Untouchables are relegated to the lowest jobs, and live in constant fear of being publicly humiliated, paraded naked, beaten, and raped with impunity by upper-caste Hindus seeking to keep them in their place. Merely walking through an upper-caste neighborhood is a life-threatening offense.

Nearly 90 percent of all the poor Indians and 95 percent of all the illiterate Indians are Dalits, according to figures presented at the International Dalit Conference that took place May 16 to 18 in Vancouver, Canada.

Crime Against Dalits

Statistics compiled by India's National Crime Records Bureau indicate that in the year 2000, the last year for which figures are available, 25,455 crimes were committed against Dalits. Every hour two Dalits are assaulted; every day three Dalit women are raped, two Dalits are murdered, and two Dalit homes are torched.

No one believes these numbers are anywhere close to the reality of crimes committed against Dalits. Because the police, village councils, and government officials often support the caste system, which is based on the religious teachings of Hinduism, many crimes go unreported due to fear of reprisal, intimidation by police, inability to pay bribes demanded by police, or simply the knowledge that the police will do nothing.

"There have been large-scale abuses by the police, acting in collusion with upper castes, including raids, beatings in custody, failure to charge offenders or investigate reported crimes," said Narula.

That same year, 68,160 complaints were filed against the police for activities ranging from murder, torture, and collusion in acts of atrocity, to refusal to file a complaint. Sixty two percent of the cases were dismissed as unsubstantiated; 26 police officers were convicted in court.

Despite the fact that untouchability was officially banned when India adopted its constitution in 1950, discrimination against Dalits remained so pervasive that in 1989 the government passed legislation known as The Prevention of Atrocities Act. The act specifically made it illegal to parade people naked through the streets, force them to eat feces, take away their land, foul their water, interfere with their right to vote, and burn down their homes."

uch

I'm not reading all that, is there a short version ?

tritium

uch wrote: »

I'm not reading all that, is there a short version ?

Bless, try the first four paragraphs and I'm sure you'll figure it out. Or hey, if you think you might give a sh1t try googling a few keywords

wazky

tritium wrote: »

Bless, try the first four paragraphs and I'm sure you'll figure it out

I'll wait for the movie if it's all the same to you.

I thought it was about daleks.

My name is URL

uch wrote: »

I'm not reading all that, is there a short version ?

Caste system bad

moxin

uch wrote: »

I'm not reading all that, is there a short version ?

Lower Caste Indians(Hindu faith) can be treated like dirt in society. They can be raped like the 2 Indian girls and the police(state) will do nothing about it.

uch

My name is URL wrote: »

Caste system bad

moxin wrote: »

Lower Caste Indians(Hindu faith) can be treated like dirt in society. They can be raped like the 2 Indian girls and the police(state) will do nothing about it.

Whaaa....?

popolive

Is your caste decided by who your parents are ? If so then what happens if you are the product of a marriage between a lower and upper caste ? How is a Dalit from a lower caste identified anyway ? Do they have a big sign on their forehead ? What is to stop a Dalit from moving to the big city and living anonymously ?

There are four principle castes in India, and Dalit people fall outside of these. Among Dalit people there are many sub-castes, and all Dalit people are collectively described as scheduled castes and tribes. Under the Hindu system, people are born to scheduled castes and tribes as punishment for bad deeds in previous lives, and are only fit to perform tasks and work that contaminate the spirit of higher castes by their degrading nature. So anything to do with garbage, human waste, pest control like rat catching, these things are considered the work of Dalits.

Because there is no mobility between castes, there is no social mobility. If you are born to a scheduled caste or tribe, you remain there for life. A higher caste who marries a lower caste assumes the lower caste status, and is consequently rare.

The problem with the caste system is that as a social system it is religiously endorsed. The perception that Dalit people are Dalits because that is what they deserve legitimises both the stigma and the unwillingness to make the social, educational and health problems of Dalit people a priority for change.

It is an injustice on a unfathomable scale, and it is very unlikely to change at anything but a snails pace.

popolive

Candie wrote: »

There are four principle castes in India, and Dalit people fall outside of these. Among Dalit people there are many sub-castes, and all Dalit people are collectively described as scheduled castes and tribes. Under the Hindu system, people are born to scheduled castes and tribes as punishment for bad deeds in previous lives, and are only fit to perform tasks and work that contaminate the spirit of higher castes by their degrading nature. So anything to do with garbage, human waste, pest control like rat catching, these things are considered the work of Dalits.

Because there is no mobility between castes, there is no social mobility. If you are born to a scheduled caste or tribe, you remain there for life. A higher caste who marries a lower caste assumes the lower caste status, and is consequently rare.

The problem with the caste system is that as a social system it is religiously endorsed. The perception that Dalit people are Dalits because that is what they deserve legitimises both the stigma and the unwillingness to make the social, educational and health problems of Dalit people a priority for change.

It is an injustice on a unfathomable scale, and it is very unlikely to change at anything but a snails pace.

so how do people know you are from a lower caste ? because of your surname which you can legally change anyway or cant you ? or because you tell them ? Can a lower caste not just start bullshyttting people about his identity and live life as a upper caste in a big city far away from his village ? do people in lower castes believe they are getting what they deserve ? do they support the religion themselves ? why dont they convert to Islam or Buddhism ? They would rock a lot of boats if they converted to the former...

popolive

popolive wrote: »

Is your caste decided by who your parents are ? If so then what happens if you are the product of a marriage between a lower and upper caste ? How is a Dalit from a lower caste identified anyway ? Do they have a big sign on their forehead ? What is to stop a Dalit from moving to the big city and living anonymously ?

There is no mobility between castes, a person marrying a lower caste assumes that status, not the other way around. It doesn't happen much, certainly not outside of cities.

Dalit people share characteristics that make them identifiable. They tend to be darker, smaller, more slightly built. In large cities it is harder to enforce caste apartheid, but discrimination is still rife.

Tail Docker

What caste was Tonto?

Nodin

Tail Docker wrote: »

What caste was Tonto?

He was type cast, alas.

popolive

Candie wrote: »

Dalit people share characteristics that make them identifiable. They tend to be darker, smaller, more slightly built. In large cities it is harder to enforce caste apartheid, but discrimination is still rife.

are they sort of like in the same or similar role as Travellers or Gypsies in recent history in Ireland and the UK ?

DanWall

Don't they believe they will be reincarnated as an animal?

tritium

popolive wrote: »

so how do people know you are from a lower caste ? because of your surname which you can legally change anyway or cant you ? or because you tell them ? Can a lower caste not just start bullshyttting people about his identity and live life as a upper caste in a big city far away from his village ? do people in lower castes believe they are getting what they deserve ? do they support the religion themselves ? why dont they convert to Islam or Buddhism ? They would rock a lot of boats if they converted to the former...

Many of the issues are more pronounced in rural areas where as you'd expect mobility is more difficult. Also as Candie noted there are some characteristics that would mark someone out as an dalit often

Nodin

popolive wrote: »

are they sort of like in the same or similar role as Travellers or Gypsies in recent history ?

No, they're treated far far worse.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8090009.stm
http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2013/oct/11/indian-caste-campaigners-eu-discrimination

tritium

popolive wrote: »

are they sort of like in the same or similar role as Travellers or Gypsies in recent history in Ireland and the UK ?

Same idea but travellers would be considered to be treated like royalty by relative comparison. As I said in the OP this makes first world discrimination look like a first world problem.

DanWall

DanWall wrote: »

Don't they believe they will be reincarnated as an animal?

No, though Dalits were/are thought of as lesser humans.

It used to be an offence for a Dalit person to allow their shadow to fall across a person of higher caste.

My name is URL

Candie wrote: »

No, though Dalits were/are thought of as lesser humans.

It used to be an offence for a Dalit person to allow their shadow to fall across a person of higher caste.

I wonder how many of those uppity plonkers that go off to India to 'find' themselves are aware of some of the shit that goes on over there

My name is URL

My name is URL wrote: »

I wonder how many of those uppity plonkers that go off to India to 'find' themselves are aware of some of the shit that goes on over there

I think if you stay in the tourist hotspots it would be easy enough to miss. The reality is horrific, there is so much more to it than street beggars, which is usually what people come home complaining about.

Tail Docker

Tail Docker wrote: »

What caste was Tonto?

When Christopher Columbus first encountered Native Americans he called them Indians because he thought he was in India.

True story.

Tail Docker

Candie wrote: »

When Christopher Columbus first encountered Native Americans he called them Indians because he thought he was in India.

True story.

How?

wazky

Tail Docker wrote: »

How?

How, whiteman.

Arthur Beesley

popolive wrote: »

are they sort of like in the same or similar role as Travellers or Gypsies in recent history in Ireland and the UK ?

Presumably the Dalits abide by societal rules and law and order, so there is no similarity.

end of the road

Arthur Beesley wrote: »

Presumably the Dalits abide by societal rules and law and order, so there is no similarity.

oh? really? can you not actually answer his question without coming out with a stupid pointless comment?

Arthur Beesley

end of the road wrote: »

oh? really? can you not actually answer his question without coming out with a stupid pointless comment?

That is the answer - there is no comparison. Sorry to here you are having a problem understanding.

Arthur Beesley

Arthur Beesley wrote: »

Presumably the Dalits abide by societal rules and law and order, so there is no similarity.

Very few peoples who reside on the fringes of society abide by laws they don't benefit from equal enforcement of, when victims of lawlessness themselves.

Why would a people abide by a rule that applies to you, but not for you? Crime within Dalit communities exists, as it does against them.

end of the road

Arthur Beesley wrote: »

That is the answer - there is no comparison. Sorry to here you are having a problem understanding.

your the one with the problem, you couldn't actually answer the question posed but came out with an irrelevant comment to answer the question

Arthur Beesley

end of the road wrote: »

your the one with the problem, you couldn't actually answer the question posed but came out with an irrelevant comment to answer the question

:rolleyes: No, you are. Explain how the Dalits are similar to travellers.

Arthur Beesley

Candie wrote: »

Very few peoples who reside on the fringes of society abide by laws they don't benefit from equal enforcement of, when victims of lawlessness themselves.

Why would a people abide by a rule that applies to you, but not for you? Crime within Dalit communities exists, as it does against them.

How are travellers 'victims of lawlessness themselves' by non-travellers?

Arthur Beesley

Arthur Beesley wrote: »

:rolleyes: No, you are. Explain how the Dalits are similar to travellers.

He never said they were. For the record, they're as similar to Travellers as you are, you're all human beings. Culturally they're worlds apart, they have no nomadic tradition and do not choose their status, they have no social mobility and poorly respected rights. The similarity lies only in their marginalisation, but the genesis of it is so different that it is a very poor comparison.

Arthur Beesley

Arthur Beesley wrote: »

How are travellers 'victims of lawlessness themselves' by non-travellers?

The thread is about the scheduled castes and tribes of India which is the group I was talking about, not travellers. You're the only one demanding to know what the similarities/differences are.

Arthur Beesley

end of the road wrote: »

your the one with the problem, you couldn't actually answer the question posed but came out with an irrelevant comment to answer the question

:rolleyes: Cop yourself on, lad.

Arthur Beesley

Candie wrote: »

The thread is about the scheduled castes and tribes of India which is the group I was talking about, not travellers. You're the only one demanding to know what the similarities/differences are.

In response to someone claiming there were similarities.

end of the road

Arthur Beesley wrote: »

In response to someone claiming there were similarities.

thats impossible as nobody claimed there were similarities

tritium

As Candie has mentioned its pretty much impossible to draw an analogy to first world discrimination here. Unfortunately there's a tendency to parallel their plight with first world agenda but really there's no modern comparison you can make. Think 60's Mississippi for black's but on a vastly larger and worse scale-160million people reduced to the status of dirt

suicide_circus

My name is URL wrote: »

I wonder how many of those uppity plonkers that go off to India to 'find' themselves are aware of some of the shit that goes on over there

Yeah they seem to ommit the apartheid, brutality and murderous discrimination from their self involved speeches when they come back home with their bead necklace and collarless shirts.

Celly Smunt

popolive wrote: »

are they sort of like in the same or similar role as Travellers or Gypsies in recent history in Ireland and the UK ?

They don't have piles of cash though.

Hootanany

So the India is a racist country?

GalwayGuy2

Hootanany wrote: »

So the India is a racist country?

Probably, but I'm not sure it would be racism in this case. A particularly horrific classism?

tritium

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

Probably, but I'm not sure it would be racism in this case. A particularly horrific classism?

Yeah that would be fairly accurate here. I don't think that Dalits would be a separate ethnic race per set, just victims of being born into a fcuked up tradition of caste

popolive

What are the origins of the Dalits ? Are the Dalits related to each other in the same way Travellers are ? When did the caste system begin and how ? There is a story that somehow gypsies came to Europe from India (but mistaken as Eqyptians hence the name GYPsie], were those gypsies originally Dalits ?

tritium

popolive wrote: »

What are the origins of the Dalits ? Are the Dalits related to each other in the same way Travellers are ? When did the caste system begin and how ? There is a story that somehow gypsies came to Europe from India (but mistaken as Eqyptians hence the name GYPsie], were those gypsies originally Dalits ?

The caste system is ancient, its been written about by visitors to India in the 5th century for example. Dalits are an excluded group within society who carried out certain impure (and very necessary) jobs. Given that there's limited caste mobility Dalits are likely to have similar genealogy but given the sheer number of them (160 million) it would be less concentrated than amongst the travelling community

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India

It's important to remember that most Indian people are not directly complicit in the victimisation and marginalisation of Dalit peoples. Education is by law open to scheduled castes and tribes, although there are many financial and social hurdles that can be all but impossible to overcome, although laws regarding quotas and financial incentives are in place to help redress the inequality. Accessing rights is a major issue, particularly among the commonly illiterate, rural population.

There is also great hope for social change in the democratic process. The 10th president of India was a Dalit man called K.R. Narayanan who was a protege of Indira Ghandhi, and the very popularly elected Mayawati Kumari served four terms as the First Minister of Uttar Pradesh. As more Dalit people access education, more are represented in governing bodies and it's from there that lasting change will come.

So the non-Dalit population of India by and large welcome change and inclusivity, but there is a long way to go. It's also important to remember that Hindus make up a large majority of the population, but there are sizeable minorities for whom legislation promoting equality of access to education and work is also very important.

http://www.phibetaiota.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/india-graphic-of-religions.gif

It's important not to tar the whole nation as pro caste segregation.