Pay Rates Civil Service/Public Sector

yesto24

So I have been reading a lot of threads on boards on how the civil service/public sector is over or underpaid. It has got boring people have the same view and they are not changing.
So I thought I would start a new one but keep it to two sectors.
1. Clerical officers. Because I worked as one as a TCO for a summer. Went out with a girl who was one and know a few other people who work/ed as TCO or CO. Clerical officers are also generally the people the public deal with on phones or face to face. So it is one sector that the general public know something of the work done.
2. Teachers. Because they are high profile especially at Easter. My brother is one so I know what they get paid and what the work load is. I spent a good few months every year in one school doing regular maintenance it gave me a good opportunity to see actual work done. We all spent time in school as students and while we were children or teenagers and possibly adults are memories are still valid especially from the senior cycle.

Taking pay rates I will not be dealing with to new entrants pay scale why? because feck all COs and teachers are on it.

Clerical Officers.
Without a doubt one of the easiest jobs I have ever done. No stress, no pressure plenty of breaks. The work is not in the least bit challenging. Hours were great flexi time was amazing and abused.
The pay at the lower rates was not great but it was not bad considering the workload.
Starting at about €22000. Top of the scale in my opinion was overpaid about €35000 and the two LSI.
I would say the pay for these jobs should top out at €30000 compared to other jobs like it in the private sector.

I will give my opinion on teachers later and also go find the current and old rate for both jobs.

We might even call this are own benchmarking.

Opinions.

woodoo

You are right this has been done to death and nobody will change from their original positions. Whether CO's are overpaid or not they will not be cut any further. The agreement under CPA1 was that they would be first to get a pay rise. I think the pay for the job is about right. I would't pay them more but i wouldn't cut them either.

BTW CO's should get an increase for boredom money

What do you do yourself OP?

yesto24

but what I meant to add that we would try deal with facts only and no I heard down the pub story. That's why I only mentioned two sectors.

Dozen Wicked Words

yesto24 wrote: »

but what I meant to add that we would try deal with facts only and no I heard down the pub story. That's why I only mentioned two sectors.

No offence but both your examples are a bit heard down the pub ish. One man's I knew this bloke who........ Is another man's I have a brother who........... To anyone who doesn't know the people involved, the reliability is the same.

yesto24

So working as one is not good enough?

Dozen Wicked Words

yesto24 wrote: »

So working as one is not good enough?

I could say I'm a CEO of a bank. I'm not.

Edit: Anyway, apologies, good luck with the thread.

yesto24

this is exactly what I wanted to avoid. A bit of honesty and no VI.
Ah well.

aliveandkicking

What do you hope to achieve with this thread op? It will descend into the usual arguments with the usual posters.

On you point about COs being overpaid compared to private sector equivalents, you will of course realise that your 35000 figure for higher end of the scale for COs in the public sector is a gross figure. Public sector COs will be paying mandatory superannuation and pension levy out of that 35000 that a private sector worker would not. This equalises things a lot more than the headline gross salary figures. You will say that of course a public sector CO will get a pension at the end of it all and this is correct but a COs pension is a pittance really, about 8000 a year after 40 years service as a CO.

yesto24

I hope to get facts and figures. Like what you posted. How much will a CO have paid for this pension? Take someone who joined in 1995 they are at or near the top of the scale. Let's run with this person. Calculate their contributions and see what pension they will get. I realise that has many variables. As the OAP goes down (and it will) the pension paid to the CO will remain the same. Its a lot of work to calculate this but with more facts it will be easier.
I hope this thread remains on topic that is why I started it comparing only two jobs. Maybe we will come back to the teachers in another thread and stay with the COs.

Supup

Yet anther anti-civil Service thread. You are right. These threads are getting very boring.

CO's around the country and across all Departments work hard, provide and excellent service in challenging situatons.

But are targetted as being lazy, abusers of the 'system'

tell me, in what way was Flexi time abused in your 'notihng to do' work placement..?

yesto24

Where did I say I had nothing to do?

yesto24

Supup wrote: »

Yet anther anti-civil Service thread. You are right. These threads are getting very boring.

CO's around the country and across all Departments work hard, provide and excellent service in challenging situatons.

But are targetted as being lazy, abusers of the 'system'

tell me, in what way was Flexi time abused in your 'notihng to do' work placement..?

Well come in 10 mins early say 8.50 do no work you know get your coffee something like that hang around for 5 mins at end of day leave a 5.05. Pretty quick before the end of the month you have half a day banked. Okay its not abuse its play ing the system. What ever way you look at it its a good perk. What value do you place on it?

Supup

yesto24 wrote: »

Where did I say I had nothing to do?

"Without a doubt one of the easiest jobs I have ever done. No stress, no pressure plenty of breaks. The work is not in the least bit challenging. Hours were great flexi time was amazing and abused."

Now, about that abuse of flexi time?

Supup

yesto24 wrote: »

Well come in 10 mins early say 8.50 do no work you know get your coffee something like that hang around for 5 mins at end of day leave a 5.05. Pretty quick before the end of the month you have half a day banked. Okay its not abuse its play ing the system. What ever way you look at it its a good perk. What value do you place on it?

This, your honour, is the case for the prosecution.

*Howls of laughter from the jury*

Must try harder dude.

yesto24

Supup wrote: »

This, your honour, is the case for the prosecution.

*Howls of laughter from the jury*

Must try harder dude.

Over a year that is 6 days. You see nothing wrong with this?

And where did I say I had nothing to do?

Supup

yesto24 wrote: »

Over a year that is 6 days. You see nothing wrong with this?

And where did I say I had nothing to do?

What is six days. You are waffling.

aliveandkicking

yesto24 wrote: »

I hope to get facts and figures. Like what you posted. How much will a CO have paid for this pension? Take someone who joined in 1995 they are at or near the top of the scale. Let's run with this person. Calculate their contributions and see what pension they will get. I realise that has many variables. As the OAP goes down (and it will) the pension paid to the CO will remain the same. Its a lot of work to calculate this but with more facts it will be easier.
I hope this thread remains on topic that is why I started it comparing only two jobs. Maybe we will come back to the teachers in another thread and stay with the COs.

Facts/figures and caculators are all here http://www.cspensions.gov.ie/

Superannuation is generally 6.5% of salary.

Pension levy is:
Earnings between € 15,000 and € 20,000: 2.5%

Earnings between € 20,000 and € 60,000: 10%

Earnings above € 60,000: 10.5%

A CO on 35000 would pay 1500 a year in pension levy and 2275 a year in superannuation.

According to the calculator on that site above the example you use of someone entering in 95 will get a pension of 7000 per year after 40 years service. Not exactly gold plated now is it!

aliveandkicking

yesto24 wrote: »

Well come in 10 mins early say 8.50 do no work you know get your coffee something like that hang around for 5 mins at end of day leave a 5.05. Pretty quick before the end of the month you have half a day banked. Okay its not abuse its play ing the system. What ever way you look at it its a good perk. What value do you place on it?

I thought this was the kind of stuff you were hoping to avoid in this thread.

Pretty sure a large percentage of private sector office workers make tea or coffee during the working day too!

barneystinson

aliveandkicking wrote: »

Facts/figures and caculators are all here http://www.cspensions.gov.ie/

Superannuation is generally 6.5% of salary.

Pension levy is:
Earnings between € 15,000 and € 20,000: 2.5%

Earnings between € 20,000 and € 60,000: 10%

Earnings above € 60,000: 10.5%

A CO on 35000 would pay 1500 a year in pension levy and 2275 a year in superannuation.

According to the calculator on that site above the example you use of someone entering in 95 will get a pension of 7000 per year after 40 years service. Not exactly gold plated now is it!

Well to see how good the pension is, you'd need to find out what size of pension pot is required to pay out 7k p.a. for life on retirement...

I don't know, but I'd suspect you'd need a good bit more than whatever 1.5k pa over 40 years would amount to... so in that sense it's a very good pension.

It was a big factor in my mind when I joined the civil service anyway.

woodoo

yesto24 wrote: »

Well come in 10 mins early say 8.50 do no work you know get your coffee something like that hang around for 5 mins at end of day leave a 5.05. Pretty quick before the end of the month you have half a day banked. Okay its not abuse its play ing the system. What ever way you look at it its a good perk. What value do you place on it?

So what if they chat for 5 mins. Do you think that doesn't happen in other jobs. It certainly happened in the private sector jobs i was in. You would be some boss to have expecting the head to be down from 9 to 5. Its up to a manager/supervisor to be satisfied the their work is being done. If they are conscientious workers or not.

yesto24

So based on your figures and back of envelope calculation. A co would have a pension fund of 121000. Now o took 20 years pension levy and superannuation and 20 years superannuation. I know the pension levy is around for a few years but also the co was not always on 35000.
So a fund of 121000, do you still get a lump sum? 8000 a year for how many years? And as already mentioned as the OAP is cut that 8000 is going to grow.

Supup

This is basic stuff. A CO who has 40 years service will get a tax free LS of approx €52,000.

yesto24

Supup wrote: »

This is basic stuff. A CO who has 40 years service will get a tax free LS of approx €52,000.

So now the pension fund is 69000 to fund an 8000 year pension. That is goldplated.

yesto24

woodoo wrote: »

So what if they chat for 5 mins. Do you think that doesn't happen in other jobs. It certainly happened in the private sector jobs i was in. You would be some boss to have expecting the head to be down from 9 to 5. Its up to a manager/supervisor to be satisfied the their work is being done. If they are conscientious workers or not.

That's not what I am saying. If you looked a t my post closely this was extra time outside the 9 to 5.

Supup

yesto24 wrote: »

So now the pension fund is 69000 to fund an 8000 year pension. That is goldplated.

I love my pension package and please God I'll live for many a year on it fter retirement.

Now can we close this thread up as the OP is trolling, and trolling badly.

yesto24

Supup wrote: »

I love my pension package and please God I'll live for many a year on it fter retirement.

Now can we close this thread up as the OP is trolling, and trolling badly.

Someone claimed their pension was not goldplated we ran the figures turns out they were wrong. You are right though, there do be trolls around.

woodoo

yesto24 wrote: »

Someone claimed their pension was not goldplated we ran the figures turns out they were wrong. You are right though, there do be trolls around.

Ah for gods sake. How is the pension mentioned above gold plated.

guppy

Supup wrote: »

"Without a doubt one of the easiest jobs I have ever done. No stress, no pressure plenty of breaks. The work is not in the least bit challenging. Hours were great flexi time was amazing and abused."

Now, about that abuse of flexi time?

In my public sector job flexi is abused as there are more than one 'schemes'. Some of us are 'on the clock'. This means we watch every minute we work, making sure we clock up enough every week/month.

Others just clock in in the morning, then clock out in the evening. No matter the times, they are clocked as having worked a full day. This means they can clock in at 10am, clock out at 3.30pm and be recorded as working a full day. And it happens a lot. The union ensured that 'time keeping' was not allowed when the system was brought in. Sick.

aliveandkicking

yesto24 wrote: »

So based on your figures and back of envelope calculation. A co would have a pension fund of 121000. Now o took 20 years pension levy and superannuation and 20 years superannuation. I know the pension levy is around for a few years but also the co was not always on 35000.
So a fund of 121000, do you still get a lump sum? 8000 a year for how many years? And as already mentioned as the OAP is cut that 8000 is going to grow.

Back of the envelope calculation???? It's from the governments own calculator from the website I linked to above after you said your stated aim for this thread was to get facts and figures. The calculation was done using the example you provided of a co on 35000 who entered in 95. Why don't you go and have a browse of that site. Everything you've asked for is there in black and white.

And for the record if the OAP is cut - it will be cut for publc sector pensioners too. Don't know why you are under the impression it wouldn't be.

Supup

guppy wrote: »

In my public sector job flexi is abused as there are more than one 'schemes'. Some of us are 'on the clock'. This means we watch every minute we work, making sure we clock up enough every week/month.

Others just clock in in the morning, then clock out in the evening. No matter the times, they are clocked as having worked a full day. This means they can clock in at 10am, clock out at 3.30pm and be recorded as working a full day. And it happens a lot. The union ensured that 'time keeping' was not allowed when the system was brought in. Sick.

In the Civil Service everyone is on the clock.

Gongoozler

Sorry, just want to remind people that clerical officer is a grade, not a job. The pay is not starting at 22000, it's 20859. Which is 18000 after deductions. I don't have flexi, and do work my ass off. In fact because of the difficulty in hiring, I'm doing the job of two people.

woodoo

Supup wrote: »

In the Civil Service everyone is on the clock.

I'm on the clock to in my job. Its of no use to me as i don't work up any time. I clock in at 9 and out at 5 and that's it. I have no interest in staying longer to work up a day. The clock works in my bosses favour if anything as it shows them i have worked my full week.

yesto24

aliveandkicking wrote: »

Back of the envelope calculation???? It's from the governments own calculator from the website I linked to above after you said your stated aim for this thread was to get facts and figures. The calculation was done using the example you provided of a co on 35000 who entered in 95. Why don't you go and have a browse of that site. Everything you've asked for is there in black and white.

And for the record if the OAP is cut - it will be cut for publc sector pensioners too. Don't know why you are under the impression it wouldn't be.

I was referring to my calculation of multiplying the pension levy and superannuation by 20 and adding that to 20 times the superannuation. I acknowledged the short comings and that is why I called it back of the envelope. I thought it was obvious what I was referring to, my apologies and will try to be clearer and simpler in my future posts.

yesto24

With regard to the OAP being cut I was under the impression that your pension of say 20000 is made up of the OAP plus the co pension. So if the OAP is cut you still get your 20000. That is the fund we referred to earlier has to fund more. I could be wrong please correct me if I am. If you a clarification of what I meant please ask. Don't go embarrassing yourself like you just did.

aliveandkicking

barneystinson wrote: »

Well to see how good the pension is, you'd need to find out what size of pension pot is required to pay out 7k p.a. for life on retirement...

I don't know, but I'd suspect you'd need a good bit more than whatever 1.5k pa over 40 years would amount to... so in that sense it's a very good pension.

It was a big factor in my mind when I joined the civil service anyway.

Good point. Irish Life have a calculator on their website. http://www.irishlife.ie/advice/pension-calculator.html

According to that, in order to get an annual pension of 7000 at age 65 you would need to be making monthly contributions of 219 per month (2628 annually) for 40 years.

A public sector worker on 35000 pays 2275 per year in superannuation and 1500 per year in pension levy (3775 annually) to fund a pension of 7000 per year.

It looks to me that the lower paid in the public sector are paying well over the odds for their pensions.

guppy

Supup wrote: »

In the Civil Service everyone is on the clock.

I quite clearly stated 'in my public sector job'

ezra_pound

Supup wrote: »

In the Civil Service everyone is on the clock.

No they are not.

aliveandkicking

yesto24 wrote: »

With regard to the OAP being cut I was under the impression that your pension of say 20000 is made up of the OAP plus the co pension. So if the OAP is cut you still get your 20000. That is the fund we referred to earlier has to fund more. I could be wrong please correct me if I am. If you a clarification of what I meant please ask. Don't go embarrassing yourself like you just did.

Don't think I'm the one embarassing myself here. I'm not the one arguing that 7000 a year (134 per week) is a goldplated pension.

yesto24

aliveandkicking wrote: »

Don't think I'm the one embarassing myself here. I'm not the one arguing that 7000 a year (134 per week) is a goldplated pension.

No what I said is that a 7000 guaranteed return for what you put in was goldplated.

barneystinson

aliveandkicking wrote: »

Good point. Irish Life have a calculator on their website. http://www.irishlife.ie/advice/pension-calculator.html

According to that, in order to get an annual pension of 7000 at age 65 you would need to be making monthly contributions of 219 per month (2628 annually) for 40 years.

A public sector worker on 35000 pays 2275 per year in superannuation and 1500 per year in pension levy (3775 annually) to fund a pension of 7000 per year.

It looks to me that the lower paid in the public sector are paying well over the odds for their pensions.

Careful there Ted! We can't have it both ways, and as far as I'm concerned (and our unions are concerned, and whichever minister brought in confirmed the Govt's view) the pension levy is a pay cut.

Personally I prefer to see it that way, as it makes the argument more straightforward whenever we reach the point of saying we want it abolished.

But if based on the calculator you refer to, that means that only a minimal top up by the employer is required to cover the cost of the pension - in most big companies that provide occupational pension schemes, the employer at least matches the employee contribution.

Supup

ezra_pound wrote: »

No they are not.

Eveyone at CO (except under very exceptional circumstances) level are on the clock and thats what this thread is about.

Farmer Pudsey

barneystinson wrote: »

Well to see how good the pension is, you'd need to find out what size of pension pot is required to pay out 7k p.a. for life on retirement...

I don't know, but I'd suspect you'd need a good bit more than whatever 1.5k pa over 40 years would amount to... so in that sense it's a very good pension.

It was a big factor in my mind when I joined the civil service anyway.

Pensions are something I have a basic understanding of at 38K a CO would get the OAP which is about 12K and a PS pension of 7K plus a lump sum of 57K. they would also have the opportunity of further progression and pension is off final salary. To achieve a pension of 7K with 50% widows and 2% inflation proofing you would need a fund of 155K so total pension 212K

aliveandkicking wrote: »

Good point. Irish Life have a calculator on their website. http://www.irishlife.ie/advice/pension-calculator.html

According to that, in order to get an annual pension of 7000 at age 65 you would need to be making monthly contributions of 219 per month (2628 annually) for 40 years.

A public sector worker on 35000 pays 2275 per year in superannuation and 1500 per year in pension levy (3775 annually) to fund a pension of 7000 per year.

It looks to me that the lower paid in the public sector are paying well over the odds for their pensions.

Not sure if that is correct to achieve a pension of 7K/year aperson on a salary of 38K would need to be contributing 10% of there wages(at 38K) for 40 years. I used PA calculator.
http://www.pensionsauthority.ie/en/Calculators/Pensions_Calculator/

yesto24 wrote: »

I was referring to my calculation of multiplying the pension levy and superannuation by 20 and adding that to 20 times the superannuation. I acknowledged the short comings and that is why I called it back of the envelope. I thought it was obvious what I was referring to, my apologies and will try to be clearer and simpler in my future posts.

Tt present the multiplier would be about 22.5

Godge

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Pensions are something I have a basic understanding of at 38K a CO would get the OAP which is about 12K and a PS pension of 7K plus a lump sum of 57K. they would also have the opportunity of further progression and pension is off final salary. To achieve a pension of 7K with 50% widows and 2% inflation proofing you would need a fund of 155K so total pension 212K

To use your figures (and I haven't been able to replicate them myself on the site), a clercial officer joining now at 19 and retiring at 65 will be employed for 46 years.

212,000 divided by 46 equals €4608 per year. A clerical officer as shown above is paying €2275 in contributions per year. A matching contribution from the employer gives €4550 meaning there is a shortfall of €58 per year.


Wow, what a magnificent benefit the CO is getting.

Oops, that assumes that the pension fund is invested at a rate of 0%.

Godge

yesto24 wrote: »

With regard to the OAP being cut I was under the impression that your pension of say 20000 is made up of the OAP plus the co pension. So if the OAP is cut you still get your 20000. That is the fund we referred to earlier has to fund more. I could be wrong please correct me if I am. If you a clarification of what I meant please ask. Don't go embarrassing yourself like you just did.

We are just coming out of the worst economic crisis this State has ever seen. Left, right and centre, everything was cut, unemployment benefit, medical cards, public service pay etc. Taxes were raised and many new taxes were introduced.

One thing was left untouched - the rate of social welfare pension.

Yet, somehow you want to build into a modelling of civil service pension benefits the possibility that the state pension will be cut. Well, the rest of us are living in the real world.

Farmer Pudsey

Godge wrote: »

To use your figures (and I haven't been able to replicate them myself on the site), a clercial officer joining now at 19 and retiring at 65 will be employed for 46 years.

212,000 divided by 46 equals €4608 per year. A clerical officer as shown above is paying €2275 in contributions per year. A matching contribution from the employer gives €4550 meaning there is a shortfall of €58 per year.


Wow, what a magnificent benefit the CO is getting.

Oops, that assumes that the pension fund is invested at a rate of 0%.

I uses starting age of 25. retirement age of 65 and a pay rate of 38K and not currently in a pension scheme. Those were the figures the calculator came up with. I used the age of 25 as few now join straight from the end of second level.

Anyone that thinks that PS pensions are not gold plated is deluded. The first thing to remember is that it is 50% of final salary that means if you get promotion or you work in an area that there is premium pay then this is all calculated in. So you could serve for 35 years as a CO get promoted to an AO and get the pension associated with that rank in theory. Any OT over last three years of service is average and it goes in at 1.5 the rate into the gratuity. Also these pensions were linked to either inflation or to any rises in that officers pay rate. Finally you have the Widow and orphans sections of the pension not that I begrudge it to any such family's but it is an added security and means less life assurance is required. Also you have to calculate in the fact that the OAP may not increase the same as wages over next 20+ years so pension gap between CO and OAP rate may widen. My understanding is that the state will also pick up the years betwee
n 65 and the kicking in of the OAP.

You can ask any independent accountant, economist or actuary and I doubt if they would agree that these pensions are being fully paid for even by lower grade PS staff.

Godge

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

I uses starting age of 25. retirement age of 65 and a pay rate of 38K and not currently in a pension scheme. Those were the figures the calculator came up with. I used the age of 25 as few now join straight from the end of second level.

Is this a random guess at 25, or do you have some statistic to back it up????

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Anyone that thinks that PS pensions are not gold plated is deluded. The first thing to remember is that it is 50% of final salary that means if you get promotion or you work in an area that there is premium pay then this is all calculated in. So you could serve for 35 years as a CO get promoted to an AO and get the pension associated with that rank in theory. Any OT over last three years of service is average and it goes in at 1.5 the rate into the gratuity.

Not any more, anyone joining since 2012 is on a much different lower pension that is career average based, not final salary.

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Also these pensions were linked to either inflation or to any rises in that officers pay rate. .

The actuarial calculation you used assumed a 2% per annum increase in pension. At best, public service pensions will remain flat between 2008 and 2020, you wouldn't want to have retired in 2008 and got those non-existent increases.

Farmer Pudsey

Godge wrote: »

Is this a random guess at 25, or do you have some statistic to back it up????




Not any more, anyone joining since 2012 is on a much different lower pension that is career average based, not final salary.





The actuarial calculation you used assumed a 2% per annum increase in pension. At best, public service pensions will remain flat between 2008 and 2020, you wouldn't want to have retired in 2008 and got those non-existent increases.

It is as random as your use of 19 years of age in your calculation.

If you retired in 2008 in general you did not pay anything into the pension and had no levy.

Godge

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

It is as random as your use of 19 years of age in your calculation.

Random < Anecdotal < Educated Guess < Statistical.

When I was in the Civil service, I knew more people who started at 17 than who started at 25. Most people who join the civil service are school-leavers (17) or graduates (21), the use of 19 is an average of the two.

Yours was random, mine was somewhere between anecdotal and an educated guess.

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

If you retired in 2008 in general you did not pay anything into the pension and had no levy.

Doesn't answer the question. How can you calculate a 2% increase into the future pension when the last 6-7 years have seen a decrease?

Farmer Pudsey

Godge wrote: »

Random < Anecdotal < Educated Guess < Statistical.

When I was in the Civil service, I knew more people who started at 17 than who started at 25. Most people who join the civil service are school-leavers (17) or graduates (21), the use of 19 is an average of the two.

Yours was random, mine was somewhere between anecdotal and an educated guess.




Doesn't answer the question. How can you calculate a 2% increase into the future pension when the last 6-7 years have seen a decrease?

And the 10 years before that saw maybe a 50% incresse. There are PS that are retired and are on pensions that are higher than what there final salary was.

Now more and more will be older, most young people are 22+ before they leave college ( with transisition year most are 19 entering college allow 5 years to complete education) . Then people are recruited over a 2-3 year age gap this would mean most recruits will be in mid 20's. In the seventy's recruits joined at as young as 16 ( and younger if doing an apprentice type job) to wherre by the 90's most had completed there leaving Cert 17/18 years of age. At present I imagine that most will be mid 20's.

But TBH we are splitting hair's over a 2-3 year gap at most

Gumbo

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

My understanding is that the state will also pick up the years between 65 and the kicking in of the OAP.

Ive been told that i have to save now or open an AVC in order to fund those 3 years myself.

Have you got a link or evidance to show that the state picks up my full pension between 65 and 68?

Im genuinely interested as i have been told by the IPF and Cornmarket that i need to fund these years myself as i will not get OAP until 68.

Riskymove

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

And the 10 years before that saw maybe a 50% incresse. There are PS that are retired and are on pensions that are higher than what there final salary was.

firstly that would require more than a 100% rise in their pension

secondly, inflation obviously plays a part too