Christy McManus Memorial & Roundwood GP - 14th June

Plastik

After great success in apocalyptic weather at the Shay Elliott Memorial and Sha3 races, Bray Wheelers are back on June 14th with the Christy McManus Memorial and Roundwood GP. We're due a break with the weather!

Race HQ is Roundwood GAA, Roundwood, Wicklow and there will be two separate races on the day - 56km for A4, and 80km for a combined Junior/A3/A2 field. Ladies with the relevant licences are more than welcome to sign on for their respective races.

Sign on for the A4 race will be 9.30 to 10.45 with racing at 11.
Sign on for the A2/A3/Jnr will be 11.30 to 12.45 with racing at 1.

More details are on www.braywheelers.com including a map of the route - which isn't changed from that of previous years.

smithslist

Has this race being postponed to Sat 29th June??

Plastik

No, all systems are go for June 14th. Where did you hear otherwise?

smithslist

On Bray Wheelers website:
http://is.gd/S5m1zB

buffalo

smithslist wrote: »

On Bray Wheelers website:
http://is.gd/S5m1zB

Welcome to 2014!

smithslist

TGIF :D:D:D:D:D

manwithaplan

Is the Hammond memorial race on the following day, with the same finish but a different circuit? Is that the one with the big dirty climb on it?

Plastik

Orwell are running the Hammond as a TT again for 2014. The last hill that you raced down at the SHA3 is actually the hill that you would have raced up in the Hammond previously. It finishes on the same stretch of road at the filter beds but much closer to the corner than the one we use for the ChristyMc.

wav1

manwithaplan wrote: »

Is the Hammond memorial race on the following day, with the same finish but a different circuit? Is that the one with the big dirty climb on it?

Hammond Memorial is a TT this year as indeed it was last year.So no humping up that climb anymore.

velogirl

Weather looking good for weekend

Pablo Rubio

Whats the circuit like...any major hills?

Inquitus

Pablo Rubio wrote: »

Whats the circuit like...any major hills?

There's a short sharp kicker (500m) which turns into a longish (3km) drag, thats aside not much of note, as circuits go it is one of the tougher ones.

http://www.strava.com/segments/1533323?filter=overall

doozerie

Just to confirm, sign-on is in An Tóchar GAA Club (map link here), right?

Diarmuid

doozerie wrote: »

Just to confirm, sign-on is in An Tóchar GAA Club (map link here), right?

Yes

luapenak

Well that was fun, except for he fact that I'm spending the afternoon in A&E waiting room. Really hope the guy who left on the stretcher is ok.

wirelessdude01

That crash was a proper high speed crash. Would say around 65/70kmph. Hope your ok after it.

Inquitus

I couldn't breathe properly today, though I had shaken my chest infection, but not the case, drilled it into the foot of the climb for the final time then sat up and spun in, saw the aftermath of both crashes, the first one looked the worst, hope the lad who was being put on the stretcher is ok, the lads in the second crash all looked to be walking wounded.

luapenak

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

That crash was a proper high speed crash. Would say around 65/70kmph. Hope your ok after it.

Mine wasn't that fast, just winding up for t the sprint so just over 50

Plastik

Hope everyone is ok. What races were the crashes in?

Inquitus

Plastik wrote: »

Hope everyone is ok. What races were the crashes in?

A4, A3/2 race was delayed, not heard any results yet.

dermabrasion

I feel sick after that. I realize that road racing is a dangerous sport, but just look at the outcome of todays tumble. I understand that 1st crash was due to someone having to veer in from being over the white line as a car came by. This took out several riders. The second on the sprint was reported as a sharp angled move across in front of a few wheels. It doesn't really matter the details, and I apologize if I have the details wrong. But what does matter is the risk of death or disability. Today could've been life changing for anyone in that race. And not in a good way. The resources of 3 HSE ambulances tasked to take away injured, from an under-resourced service. Garda tasked to investigate...and so on.
Bray set up a well organized race, as you'd expect from a well respected club. I thought the marshalling was great. I thought the moto-commmisares were good too. But this sport (which I adore) has to get real about safety, or it will be taken away from us.

wirelessdude01

Inquitus wrote: »

A4, A3/2 race was delayed, not heard any results yet.

Did it take place? Seemed to be a lot of discussions taking place between the organisers when I was leaving.

Zyzz

Another race, another report of avoidable crashes resulting in possible serious injury

Weekly occurrence which I hate reading about.

wirelessdude01

dermabrasion wrote: »

I feel sick after that. I realize that road racing is a dangerous sport, but just look at the outcome of todays tumble. I understand that 1st crash was due to someone having to veer in from being over the white line as a car came by. This took out several riders. The second on the sprint was reported as a sharp angled move across in front of a few wheels. It doesn't really matter the details, and I apologize if I have the details wrong. But what does matter is the risk of death or disability. Today could've been life changing for anyone in that race. And not in a good way. The resources of 3 HSE ambulances tasked to take away injured, from an under-resourced service. Garda tasked to investigate...and so on.
Bray set up a well organized race, as you'd expect from a well respected club. I thought the marshalling was great. I thought the moto-commmisares were good too. But this sport (which I adore) has to get real about safety, or it will be taken away from us.

I totally agree that it was well marshaled but I think the placing of the finish line could be better. A further 100/150m down the road would allow people to get around that final sharp left and then get into place for the sprint if they so wanted to get involved. As it was you had people taking stupid risks on the descent into the final corner to try and get into the corner in the first 10 or so. Then once around the corner you had people trying to get into/through gaps that didn't really exist.

Bahra12

The finish was horrendous. One of our lads wound up in the right hand wall and the other crash on the left I narrowly avoided. The lads in that one went down hard, we were all motoring full blast.

I drove down to the finish to pick up my friend who trashed his bike (he's ok... one of the walking wounded). Unfortunately the ambulance was still there. They immobilised one of the lads on the stretcher so he defo had a bad fall. Hope he's ok.

Not sure if the A3/2 race went ahead. Lads were still waiting around at the GAA when I brought back my mate to the car. No sign of lead cars or anything so they were'nt about to set off. My moneys on A3/2 race being abandoned.

That fast corner into the sprint over the reservoir is technically challenging IMHO and lads always push the limits on that stretch.

I hope all involved in the crashes are ok and get back riding soon.

Inquitus

Sword's Ken Tobin wins the A2/3 Race.

dermo1990

Bahra12 wrote: »

The finish was horrendous. One of our lads wound up in the right hand wall and the other crash on the left I narrowly avoided. The lads in that one went down hard, we were all motoring full blast.

I drove down to the finish to pick up my friend who trashed his bike (he's ok... one of the walking wounded). Unfortunately the ambulance was still there. They immobilised one of the lads on the stretcher so he defo had a bad fall. Hope he's ok.

Not sure if the A3/2 race went ahead. Lads were still waiting around at the GAA when I brought back my mate to the car. No sign of lead cars or anything so they were'nt about to set off. My moneys on A3/2 race being abandoned.

That fast corner into the sprint over the reservoir is technically challenging IMHO and lads always push the limits on that stretch.

I hope all involved in the crashes are ok and get back riding soon.

A2/A3 was almost abandoned, but after negotiations between the gardai and bray wheelers, it just about went ahead with a 90 minute delay

Bahra12

dermo1990 wrote: »

A2/A3 was almost abandoned, but after negotiations between the gardai and bray wheelers, it just about went ahead with a 90 minute delay

Think I drove by the Gardai on the way back to the GAA. They heading for finish and had the sirens on.

Fair play to Bray Wheelers for the organisation which was very good. The only thing I would say (and this goes for all races), it would be safer to finish on a drag. Might not be feasible for that course mind you. Think there was a cycling Ireland directive encouraging use of drags for finishes. I would be in favour. At least if there is a tumble it won't be at 60km/h...

MarkG1975

All the best to the injured, a2/3 race was delayed about 90mins and shortened to 4laps, fin in sprint, good job by Bray wheelers

Pawlie

Bahra12 wrote: »

The only thing I would say (and this goes for all races), it would be safer to finish on a drag. Might not be feasible for that course mind you. Think there was a cycling Ireland directive encouraging use of drags for finishes. I would be in favour. At least if there is a tumble it won't be at 60km/h...

Its not the route that causes the crashes its the clowns on two wheels that cause them,sure they may aswell take out climbs too cause you can reach serious speeds coming down other side and crashes happen then too,so what if there was a crash at 60kmph,I avoided 3 huge crashes in ras mumhan and we where doing nearly 70kmph on the flat only 20km into stage,
crashes happen its apart of the sport,people moaning about them maybe should take up another sport.

Arthurdaly

Pawlie wrote: »

Its not the route that causes the crashes its the clowns on two wheels that cause them,sure they may aswell take out climbs too cause you can reach serious speeds coming down other side and crashes happen then too,so what if there was a crash at 60kmph,I avoided 3 huge crashes in ras mumhan and we where doing nearly 70kmph on the flat only 20km into stage,
crashes happen its apart of the sport,people moaning about them maybe should take up another sport.

Agree with certain parts of this, but if I'm an A4 and know the history of the recent finishes then I would most definitely would not try contest a premium position into that final corner. That said its a very straight and decent stretch of road for the final 500 metres, riders cause crashes not roads!

Try doing the Madigan GP up north, 80kmph descent and then a 90 degree left hander with 200 metres to the finish, not for the faint hearted.

Anyways the A2/A3 was a great race on a tough circuit, thanks BW!

doozerie

I was caught up in the second A4 crash, the one on the finishing straight. There was a faint chance (at best) of getting into the placings so we were pushing hard. All of us towards the front had got round the corner safely, we just had a straight stretch of road left, it should have been fine.

I'm not entirely sure what triggered the whole thing. I was on the left hand side of the road, a rider ahead and fairly far to my right swerved sharply across to the left, I don't know what caused it. He piled into a guy just ahead and a little to my right. They went down hard and filled the road in front of me. My only route was to go left and hope there would be a tiny gap I could squeeze through. There wasn't. I hit the deck at speed (my Garmin tells me I was doing 58.7kph before it suddenly dropped to zero, might be accurate or might be one of those occasional unexplained Garmin anomalies). My bike flipped, and me with it, I think I ended up lying on the road facing back the way I had come.

I was very lucky, I mostly hit the grass verge, which was about 50cm wide, beyond that there was a solid stone wall that I'm glad I didn't connect with, at least I think I didn't. My helmet cracked just above my left ear, matching some significant dents on the outside - I suspect it hit the gravel on the road side of the grass verge. I have superficial scratches, nothing at all really, but I wrenched/twisted my lower back, possibly walloped my ribs, certainly walloped my left shoulder. I was able to move around immediately afterwards but the cycle back to the car hurt and as the day has worn on the stiffness is setting in and I'm learning how much of a beating I took. Breathing hurts, walking really hurts, bending absolutely wrecks. I'm involuntarily grunting and grimacing a lot, like a battered 90yr old wooky.

As I say, I was very lucky, I really can't understate that. One of the two riders I think broke his collarbone, the other guy was screaming, lying on the road with no helmet on - I couldn't see his helmet anywhere, I didn't make a big effort to look for it, but it was nowhere immediately near him that I could see. I was in a cloud of my own misery, I realise now that I did nothing to help him at all, perhaps I was in shock but I still feel bad. People came to help him very quickly and he was eventually taken off on a backboard in an ambulance. I hope that he is okay, but that was a shocking sight.

I have to say, much respect to dermabrasion for stepping in and helping out. It takes a lot of courage to do that, particularly in the face of a very nasty set of circumstances. There were ambulance people there, but with the injured people from this crash plus the two from the previous crash (which I didn't see happen), I think they needed all the medical help they could get.

As I say, I didn't see the crash happen, I have no idea what caused that first rider to veer across the road. Sometimes sh1t just happens, but this was one set of circumstances where you would expect no crash. I have done 6 A4 races this year, including today, and I have had crashes occur right in front of me in at least 3 of those now. That's an appalling average, and seeing the outcome of today's crash hammers home exactly how appalling the consequences can be. As for the attitude that "crashes happen, it's part of the sport", screw that, I think the sport would benefit from more thought going into trying to figure out why the incidence of crashes seems so high and how ti do something about it.

Arthurdaly

doozerie wrote: »

As I say, I didn't see the crash happen, I have no idea what caused that first rider to veer across the road. Sometimes sh1t just happens, but this was one set of circumstances where you would expect no crash. I have done 6 A4 races this year, including today, and I have had crashes occur right in front of me in at least 3 of those now. That's an appalling average, and seeing the outcome of today's crash hammers home exactly how appalling the consequences can be. As for the attitude that "crashes happen, it's part of the sport", screw that, I think the sport would benefit from more thought going into trying to figure out why the incidence of crashes seems so high and how ti do something about it.

Riders cause crashes and it will happen at every level, but there is definitely more risk at the lower levels. Lets take that finish today which was very fast, how many times has that rider on the front ridden at +50 kmph into the finish of a race, not much I'd imagine. Was he completely spent and made a mistake?

Today I knew allot of the faces in the A2/A3 race and to a certain degree I trust they will do nothing stupid and 98% of the time that's what happens.

I think club league should be mandatory but even then it does not really prepare a rider for the close encounters of an open race, not sure what the answer is.

Inquitus

Arthurdaly wrote: »

Riders cause crashes and it will happen at every level, but there is definitely more risk at the lower levels. Lets take that finish today which was very fast, how many times has that rider on the front ridden at +50 kmph into the finish of a race, not much I'd imagine. Was he completely spent and made a mistake?

Today I knew allot of the faces in the A2/A3 race and to a certain degree I trust they will do nothing stupid and 98% of the time that's what happens.

I think club league should be mandatory but even then it does not really prepare a rider for the close encounters of an open race, not sure what the answer is.

The biggest problem in A4 is people who are at the back for a reason taking unreasonable risks to get back to the front to contest a sprint they won't do anything in.

Redm0

I came down hard in the first crash , I must have gone head over heels because when i finally got up it took me a few minutes to understand which way was the finish, i was completely disorientated. Very lucky to walk away with road rash and bruises - helmet cracked in half. Very simply one guy in the sprint tried to fit through a gap that wasn't there - he shouldered the guy on the right of him which sent him wobbling out in front of me, he hit the ground and i hit his bike . It was an unnecessary crash, the road was wide enough and the sprint had been lining up as a good fair competition until that point.

SERCPRO

I hope all riders who came down in the A4 race are ok.
Did anyone get #'s of the riders that caused either crash ?

Lumen

Pawlie wrote: »

I avoided 3 huge crashes in ras mumhan and we where doing nearly 70kmph on the flat only 20km into stage, crashes happen its apart of the sport,people moaning about them maybe should take up another sport.

That just reads like condescending macho bull**** to me. Are you the undead James Hunt?

Sports in which serious injuries occur tend have some sort of process for evaluating incidents and learning from them to make the sport safer. Shouting down people who would like to see avoidable accidents avoided is not helpful or constructive.

luapenak

doozerie wrote: »

a rider ahead and fairly far to my right swerved sharply across to the left, I don't know what caused it.

Someone swerving sharply caused it. Maybe it's the guy to the left of you or someone in front of him. Either way it shouldn't have happened, it's not like there is some gaping whole in the middle of the road that would needed to be avoided.

I'm was initially of the opinion that since this is my first big crash since starting road biking, it was coming to me, but in this instance it was due to one persons stupidity. With the group relatively small, i thought to myself this will be great, much safer to try get in the sprint, then i see the swerve a few ahead which we were going to fast to avoid it.

Must however give a shout out to Bray wheelers for a well marshaled and run race. I like this course but must say there were some very poor bike handling skills each time through that last corner which had me worried a few time.

aworthycause

Lumen wrote: »

That just reads like condescending macho bull**** to me. Are you the undead James Hunt?

Sports in which serious injuries occur tend have some sort of process for evaluating incidents and learning from them to make the sport safer. Shouting down people who would like to see avoidable accidents avoided is not helpful or constructive.

+1 The "I'm so hard" attitude is what results in such crazy crashes. Anyone who doesn't wish to see a reduction in dangerous racing incidents is a liability to the rest of us.

SERCPRO

It was a shame to see such a very well organised, tightly marshalled event run by Bray Wheelers being over- shadowed by two very preventable crashes. Rider error was the route cause of both incidents
It was sheer luck that nobody was seriously injured.
Regardless of what is said before during or after a race by officials, riders continue to take stupid risks that jeopardise all riders' safety and also the future of open races in Ireland.

Pawlie

aworthycause wrote: »

+1 The "I'm so hard" attitude is what results in such crazy crashes. Anyone who doesn't wish to see a reduction in dangerous racing incidents is a liability to the rest of us.

Would you ever cop on,your lad stated that in another post it be safer finishing on a drag because speed would slower and I'm pointing out that crashes happen at faster speeds too and not just at the end of race,you take what ever I say anyway you want it doesn't bother me.
Also there is only so much commissaries and CI can do with regards safety,again I'll point out its the riders that cause crashes and maybe the clubs should give lessons on how lads ride in a bunch or sprinting,like sprinting head up at all times.

Pawlie

Lumen wrote: »

That just reads like condescending macho bull**** to me. Are you the undead James Hunt?

Sports in which serious injuries occur tend have some sort of process for evaluating incidents and learning from them to make the sport safer. Shouting down people who would like to see avoidable accidents avoided is not helpful or constructive.

Tbh honest I wasn't man just pointing out that crashes happen at faster speeds and they don't just occur at finishes like some think,I don't mind what way you take my post doesn't bother me,what does thou is lads causing the crashes stupidly as the case with this one,,there is nothing CI or the commasaires, can do to make it safer,its upto clubs and riders themselves to teach and learn about racing,it is a super sport and the way some lads on this carry in about racing and crashes you'd thing they want a speed limit on races and finishes have to be on drags or climbs so the speed is not too fast.

aworthycause

Pawlie wrote: »

Tbh honest I wasn't man just pointing out that crashes happen at faster speeds and they don't just occur at finishes like some think,I don't mind what way you take my post doesn't bother me,what does thou is lads causing the crashes stupidly as the case with this one,,there is nothing CI or the commasaires, can do to make it safer,its upto clubs and riders themselves to teach and learn about racing,it is a super sport and the way some lads on this carry in about racing and crashes you'd thing they want a speed limit on races and finishes have to be on drags or climbs so the speed is not too fast.

What are you talking about? Previously you said "people moaning about them (accidents) maybe should take up another sport." Now you're saying they shouldn't, that they should be coached instead. Which is it?

Pawlie

aworthycause wrote: »

What are you talking about? Previously you said "people moaning about them (accidents) maybe should take up another sport." Now you're saying they shouldn't, that they should be coached instead. Which is it?

They should maybe take up another sport or just ride sportif rides and not CU races cause crashes will always happen and if lads are afraid and nervous about them maybe they shouldn't race and save themselves some broken bones......

We can go round in circles about crashes and what causes them but I'm standing by its the riders and not the routes that cause them,

And just to be clear I was stating I wasn't being condensending

Lusk_Doyle

Pawlie wrote: »

Tbh honest I wasn't man just pointing out that crashes happen at faster speeds and they don't just occur at finishes like some think,I don't mind what way you take my post doesn't bother me,what does thou is lads causing the crashes stupidly as the case with this one,,there is nothing CI or the commasaires, can do to make it safer,its upto clubs and riders themselves to teach and learn about racing,it is a super sport and the way some lads on this carry in about racing and crashes you'd thing they want a speed limit on races and finishes have to be on drags or climbs so the speed is not too fast.

CI, comms, race organisers and riders ALL have a duty of care and responsibility to others with regard to safety. To suggest that they can't do anything about the cause of crashes is wrong.

boege

I was at today's race and was also there last year supporting my son. I was in the race as an A4 year before that. I have to take issue with a few points points being made here:

Crashes are not acceptable as they are almost always due to rider behaviour and one is therefore condoning bad rider behaviour. If bad rider behaviour goes unsantioned then cycling will face consequences. The attitude of the guards today was that they were not going to allow the A2/A3 race to proceed unless there was at least two ambulances available. Their view was the same thing could happen in this race. If crashes continue (and they happened 2 years in this race) then both cycling and this race will suffer consequences. So rider behaviour has a bearing on the sport for all and I think time has arrived for a stricter regime as otherwise approval for races will prove a challange or worse the preconditions for ambulance cover will be so expensive as to make the race unviable.

Also, and I don't say this lightly, the marshalling at this race was not up to par. I was at one corner and in 3 laps there was two car incidents. These would have been invisible to riders but they could have had an impact on the race and in one incident the commissare rang the marshals at the corner. I would generalise this comment by suggesting that more comprehensive marshal briefing is required at all races. I marshall at races myself and am seeing more challenging driver behaviour.

Pawlie

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

CI, comms, race organisers and riders ALL have a duty of care and responsibility to others with regard to safety. To suggest that they can't do anything about the cause of crashes is wrong.

I meant nothing more than they already do,they only do many times for example you tells lads to stay on right side of white line,
and how many times does that gets ignored especially with incoming traffic or on bad bends,this is rider stupidity nothing else

Kurtosis

Pawlie wrote: »

We can go round in circles about crashes and what causes them but I'm standing by its the riders and not the routes that cause them,

Like with any accident, there are numerous factors that can contribute to a crash, such as the course, rider judgement, number of riders, physical conditions. It makes sense to consider modifying any contributing factors to minimise the risk of a crash, not just one.

smurphy29

Pawlie wrote: »

I meant nothing more than they already do,they only do many times for example you tells lads to stay on right side of white line,
and how many times does that gets ignored especially with incoming traffic or on bad bends,this is rider stupidity nothing else

Pawlie, you're presenting counter-arguments to your own points at this stage. Is the very example you cite not a classic example of where the commissaires CAN do more i.e. disqualify/penalise riders for unsafe riding?

Pawlie

smurphy29 wrote: »

Pawlie, you're presenting counter-arguments to your own points at this stage. Is the very example you cite not a classic example of where the commissaires CAN do more i.e. disqualify/penalise riders for unsafe riding?

I suppose you are right so maybe they should disqualify riders,they did it up the north already earlier in year

Inquitus

Alot of the bad riding occurs mid bunch hidden from all bar the riders, the Comms could certainly do more to discourage wrong side riding, but that's only a small part of the problem, lads in A4 who are willing to risk bike and bones, going through gaps that don't exist, to finish nowhere in a sprint are a law unto themselves.