Uncoloured/natural colour Whiskeys

The Drunken Destrier

Hi all, I was just wondering are there any Irish whiskeys at the moment that take 100% of their colour from the cask, as opposed to caramel colouring. At the moment I'd assume there are none, because as far as I know producers are not obliged to state as much on the label (unless it's for export; eg. "mit Farbstoff" on the label).

I have a bottle of Teeling's Single Grain, and seeing as it's 46% and non-chill filtered I thought it might be natural coloured too, but it doesn't state anything on the label or website. It would just be nice to know these things.

rubadub

I never understood why alcohol is exempt from labelling. Even if it was covered they might not have to declare it as an ingredient -as I think if you are below a certain % as an ingredient you do not have to declare.

Caramel might also be used for taste not just colour.

You could email them I suppose, if you had a brand you like in mind. Though I emailed Jameson after reading people claimed it was vegan, and go not reply.

I would be more interested in the other additives, like sugar or glycerine. Tesco are pretty good about labelling, their finest vodka has glycerine in it.

BeerNut

rubadub wrote: »

I never understood why alcohol is exempt from labelling.

The wine lobby, in short. The need to preserve an image of a local, rustic, traditional craft isn't compatible with modern food labelling laws, so they won themselves an exemption, an exemption which was applied to all alcohol, perhaps to make it seem like it wasn't a special case for wine.

syklops

The Drunken Destrier wrote: »

Hi all, I was just wondering are there any Irish whiskeys at the moment that take 100% of their colour from the cask, as opposed to caramel colouring. At the moment I'd assume there are none, because as far as I know producers are not obliged to state as much on the label (unless it's for export; eg. "mit Farbstoff" on the label).

I have a bottle of Teeling's Single Grain, and seeing as it's 46% and non-chill filtered I thought it might be natural coloured too, but it doesn't state anything on the label or website. It would just be nice to know these things.

Ask them. They are very open to requests of that nature.

rubadub

syklops wrote: »

Ask them. They are very open to requests of that nature.

Really? have you asked any before? what sort of questions?

I emailed jameson twice with no reply. And emailed bulmers who did reply but were revealing no info at all that was not already on their site.

I would expect they are all very secretive about their additives. If I was a producer and using none I would be shouting about it on the bottle.

dregin

Connemara's Turf Mór is almost completely clear.

ArtieFufkin

The Drunken Destrier wrote: »

I have a bottle of Teeling's Single Grain, and seeing as it's 46% and non-chill filtered I thought it might be natural coloured too, but it doesn't state anything on the label or website. It would just be nice to know these things.

I would be surprised if there was any colour added to the single grain bottling. It was finished in Californian red wine casks and most of the colour will come from that final maturation. I work in the Celtic Whiskey Shop and will ask them next time I speak to them.

Going by the rest of their whiskeys I would say the whole range is most likely un-coloured.

I would also like to see clearer labelling for alcohol. Whiskey, vodka and gin are not as big an issue as liqueurs, alcopops and the more obscure spirits. God knows what goes into some of the lurid coloured alcopops and liqueurs.

Ape Lincoln

Irish Distillers in Middleton claim none of their age stated whiskeys have colouring added.

I have seen Marks and Spencer include caramel colouring on the ingredients label of their whiskey brand before. Not sure if they still do however.

The Drunken Destrier

@rubadub, Jameson is listed as vegan on Barnivore (the emails from Jameson repeatedly say that they use no animal products) but it is finished in sherry casks, the producers of which may have used isinglass - I imagine this is what you're concerned about? Would be very interesting to hear a response from them about such casks. Traceability for the common customer would be nice.

Also I agree, the colour is the least of my worries and I'd love to see an actual **** given by any spirit (or beer and wine) producer about stating up front the origins and additives of their product. Seems a no brainer.
I never knew about the wine lobby thing, that is a joke!

I'll email Teelings, hopefully I won't get a stock response from a rep who knows everything about the brand but nothing about the whiskey.

rubadub

found this site

http://forum.irishwhiskeysociety.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=1060

I guy gives a link to a EU definition but it is not working

From David's EurLex link above:

2. Whisky or Whiskey
(a) Whisky or whiskey is a spirit drink produced exclusively by:
(i) distillation of a mash made from malted cereals with or without whole grains of other cereals, which has been:
- saccharified by the diastase of the malt contained therein, with or without other natural enzymes,
- fermented by the action of yeast;
(ii) one or more distillations at less than 94,8 % vol., so that the distillate has an aroma and taste derived from the raw materials used,
(iii) maturation of the final distillate for at least three years in wooden casks not exceeding 700 litres capacity.
The final distillate, to which only water and plain caramel (for colouring) may be added, retains its colour, aroma and taste derived from the production process referred to in points (i), (ii) and (iii).
(b) The minimum alcoholic strength by volume of whisky or whiskey shall be 40 %.
(c) No addition of alcohol as defined in Annex I(5), diluted or not, shall take place.
(d) Whisky or whiskey shall not be sweetened or flavoured, nor contain any additives other than plain caramel used for colouring.

From this legal definition it is very clear that producers have to do everything to ensure that it is not possible to taste the caramel from the spirit as it is only allowed to have a colouring function - so how some people are allegedly able to pick it up in a simple taste test is beyond me.

other posts are discussing if it imparts a taste.

working EU link here
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32008R0110

(b)
The minimum alcoholic strength by volume of rum shall be 37,5 %.

This is why captain morgan at only 35% is not called rum here.

ArtieFufkin

Ape Lincoln wrote: »

Irish Distillers in Middleton claim none of their age stated whiskeys have colouring added.

I'm inclined to take that with a pinch of salt. Jim Murray is always hankering on about how he wished the Redbreast whiskeys were devoid of caramel. Jameson and Powers 12 Year both look a little too dark to me, so I would bet there's some caramel in them.
It's a tricky subject for all distillers to discuss. They say it's done for consistency, yet it's more likely about the customer's perception. ie darker looking=better tastings in our subconscious.

But, yeah. Caramel doesn't worry me that much in terms of health, I just think it's a bit dishonest unless the label states it somewhere.

Ape Lincoln

ArtieFufkin wrote: »

I'm inclined to take that with a pinch of salt. Jim Murray is always hankering on about how he wished the Redbreast whiskeys were devoid of caramel. Jameson and Powers 12 Year both look a little too dark to me, so I would bet there's some caramel in them.
It's a tricky subject for all distillers to discuss. They say it's done for consistency, yet it's more likely about the customer's perception. ie darker looking=better tastings in our subconscious.

But, yeah. Caramel doesn't worry me that much in terms of health, I just think it's a bit dishonest unless the label states it somewhere.

Agree with the pinch of salt but it's just that I've seen the claim attributed to Middleton on various whiskey forums so thought I would mention. Both Powers and Redbreast 12yr appear too dark to me.

I don't think caramel does much to the flavour. Bitta cork sniffing/tyre kicking if I'm honest but agree with the points about everything should be on the label.

syklops

rubadub wrote: »

Really? have you asked any before? what sort of questions?

I emailed jameson twice with no reply. And emailed bulmers who did reply but were revealing no info at all that was not already on their site.

I would expect they are all very secretive about their additives. If I was a producer and using none I would be shouting about it on the bottle.

I was referring to Teeling. Stephen is on Twitter, Im sure he would give you a straight answer. I'll ask my Dad(former Jameson distiller) if he can shed any light.

Jameson is now owned by a multi national conglomerate so your mileage may vary with how they respond to requests of this nature. Teelings at least is a small Family owned Irish business.

Ok, so I sent a tweet to Stephen referencing this thread. We'll see if he responds.

BaZmO*

BeerNut wrote: »

The wine lobby, in short. The need to preserve an image of a local, rustic, traditional craft isn't compatible with modern food labelling laws, so they won themselves an exemption, an exemption which was applied to all alcohol, perhaps to make it seem like it wasn't a special case for wine.

Interesting, but why the listing of sulphites?

BeerNut

BaZmO* wrote: »

Interesting, but why the listing of sulphites?

They're an allergen of sorts, so there has to be notification of them, but not a listing.

BaZmO*

BeerNut wrote: »

They're an allergen of sorts, so there has to be notification of them, but not a listing.

I'd imagine there'd be a case for some of the other ingredients being an allergen too, but I suppose you'd need to know what the other ingredients are first.

BeerNut

BaZmO* wrote: »

I'd imagine there'd be a case for some of the other ingredients being an allergen too

Only if they're eggs, molluscs, crustaceans, celery, milk, fish, treenuts, soya, sesame, peanuts, mustard, lupin or gluten.

gandalf

The Drunken Destrier wrote: »

I have a bottle of Teeling's Single Grain, and seeing as it's 46% and non-chill filtered I thought it might be natural coloured too, but it doesn't state anything on the label or website. It would just be nice to know these things.

Got a bottle of this at Bloom at the weekend and the people on the stand were saying as part of their pitch that it doesn't have caramel added. Whether that's true or not I don't know. It would be interesting to hear Mr. Teelings opinion on it.

I did have a bottle of Connemara Cask Strength a while ago and it looked far lighter than the normal bottle so I would hazard a guess that its devoid of caramel as well.

I wouldn't be convinced that Redbreast doesn't have some in it as it is a very dark Congac like colour.

The Drunken Destrier

So I got this response from Teelings:

Hi Killian,

Thanks for the email and delighted you discovered our whiskeys.

The Single Grain is made from Water, Maize (95%), Malted Barley (5%), Yeast (relative to mushroom), oak lactones with no E150 caramel added so it should be suited for vegans.

Let me know if you have any other questions and enjoy our Single Grain.

Thanks again.

Best Regards
Jack Teeling

Great stuff, even more impressed by it now, that's a gorgeous natural colour. Surprised it's not stated on the label, it might be a selling point. Also seems suitable for vegans, but there's still a question of whether or not the Californian Cab Sauv barrels had seen any isinglass.

oblivious

The Drunken Destrier wrote: »

Maize (95%), Malted Barley (5%),

Holy improbable mash batman, surly they are adding in diastatic enzyme to get that to convert?

The Drunken Destrier wrote: »

Also seems suitable for vegans, but there's still a question of whether or not the Californian Cab Sauv barrels had seen any isinglass.

They may be also using something like Sparkalloid or Bentonite

BeerNut

Jack Teeling wrote: »

The Single Grain is made from Water, Maize (95%), Malted Barley (5%)

I don't know whiskey, but I can count up to one

oblivious

BeerNut wrote: »

I don't know whiskey, but I can count up to one

hehe totally missed that :P

Marcusm

syklops wrote: »

Jameson is now owned by a multi national conglomerate so your mileage may vary with how they respond to requests of this nature. Teelings at least is a small Family owned Irish business.

For the last 26 years ....

ArtieFufkin

BeerNut wrote: »

I don't know whiskey, but I can count up to one

The single refers to single distillery, ie a grain whiskey made at a single location.

BeerNut

Single Malt, only not malt. Gotcha.

kilbeggan cooperage

Marcusm wrote: »

For the last 26 years ....

And the best in the game!

syklops

Marcusm wrote: »

For the last 26 years ....

I don't really get why you pointed this out.

Carawaystick

BeerNut wrote: »

Only if they're eggs, molluscs, crustaceans, celery, milk, fish, treenuts, soya, sesame, peanuts, mustard, lupin or gluten.

/OT

Why do some foods list Barley? is it cos it'll more than likely have gluten? I've often seen barley & gluten listed.




I've seen some whiskeys filled in barrels which were charred ( with something like a flamethrower/chinese wok burner cross) just before the raw spirit was poured in. Won't the burnt timber colour the whiskey?

rubadub

The Drunken Destrier wrote: »

Surprised it's not stated on the label, it might be a selling point.

I think it would be too, if people like a particular batch they might buy a few more, and have several bottles in the press.

Carawaystick wrote: »

Won't the burnt timber colour the whiskey?

It does. I guess the makers are adding more colouring to achieve a consistent colour all the time, no matter where the barrels come from. I have toasted oak and aged/coloured my own rum.

cooperguy

I was at a whiskey tasting with Irish Distillers last year where their representative admitted caramel was used in their products.

suicide_circus

Knappogue Castle 12 year old Single Malt - it's the palest whiskey i've ever seen. think...light straw coloured piss....lovely delicate whiskey actually

oblivious

cooperguy wrote: »

I was at a whiskey tasting with Irish Distillers last year where their representative admitted caramel was used in their products.

Did they go into any detail about adding Enzymes to sone of mashes as there is mostly non malted goods?