Cluster failure-NCT

PLUG71

Hi, I have a 2004 Volvo S60 T5 and the digital dash cluster is screwed!

The unit is unrepairable, secondhand units have to be programmed to car the by Volvo who refuse to do it.

A new unit from Volvo costs around €1300 fitted.

So my question is will the car fail an NCT if the dash does'nt work?

I'm guessing it will fail and just need it clarifying!

Great car otherwise just do not want to spent that kind of money on it if by any chance I dont have to!!??:D

slimjimmc

The NCT are only concerned with the following dash items. If any are defective then it will fail, otherwise I don't see anything else in the test manual which is cause for dash related failure. The NCT don't care that you can't see your trip computer, etc.

Speedometer / speedometer lighting

Headlamp main beam warning light

Indicator dash tell-tale light

Fog lamp warning light

malfunction indicators for Airbags, Electronic Stability Control (ESC), Electronic Braking System (EBS) / Anti-Lock Braking System (ABS) or Parking Brake malfunction indicator

rolexeagle1

When you say it is broken what do you mean. DO any of the lights work on it at all? I would presume it will fail if nothing is working on it. It will also fail if there are any warning lights illuminated

MugMugs

You're telling me that nobody but volvo have the ability to code a second hand cluster in?

Chimaera

I'd be quite surprised if it passed. I'd also question the sanity of anyone who'd drive a car with a non-functioning instrument cluster. I'm sure there are independents out there who can fix this for you for less money. Go sort it out and stop being a cheap-assed idiot!

PLUG71

srumball wrote: »

When you say it is broken what do you mean. DO any of the lights work on it at all? I would presume it will fail if nothing is working on it. It will also fail if there are any warning lights illuminated

It started out where the whole cluster would fail intermitantly and after a while the whole unit crashed.
I sent it off to a guy in Dublin that fixes them but on this soccasion he was unable to fix this unit because somebody else bodged it in the past.

PLUG71

slimjimmc wrote: »

The NCT are only concerned with the following dash items. If any are defective then it will fail, otherwise I don't see anything else in the test manual which is cause for dash related failure. The NCT don't care that you can't see your trip computer, etc.

• Speedometer / speedometer lighting

• Headlamp main beam warning light

• Indicator dash tell-tale light

• Fog lamp warning light

• malfunction indicators for Airbags, Electronic Stability Control (ESC), Electronic Braking System (EBS) / Anti-Lock Braking System (ABS) or Parking Brake malfunction indicator

Thank you kindly sir

brembo26

Im guessing the mileage has to show as well since it gets put on the cert?

mickdw

Chimaera wrote: »

Go sort it out and stop being a cheap-assed idiot!

what the f*ck?
The op is asking a question which I think is made for this forum and that is the response?

PLUG71

Chimaera wrote: »

I'd be quite surprised if it passed. I'd also question the sanity of anyone who'd drive a car with a non-functioning instrument cluster. I'm sure there are independents out there who can fix this for you for less money. Go sort it out and stop being a cheap-assed idiot!

Whats your problem?
Who the hell do you think your talking to?

THE NCT IS DUE AND IM TRYING TO SORT A CLUSTER TO SUIT BEFORE THEN! SMARTARSE!!

PLUG71

mickdw wrote: »

what the f*ck?
The op is asking a question which I think is made for this forum and that is the response?

Thanks man, theres always one!! :mad::eek::D

jimgoose

Chimaera wrote: »

...

Bit uncalled-for, chief? Sounds like the OP is caught between an incredibly annoying problem and a manufacturer policy designed to screw the punter. Mate of mine had to spend €2,000 a few years back replacing a dead dash in an S-Class, and he, like most people, would have preferred to avoid that sort of expense on something so damned stupid.

Supergurrier

Can they not be reconditioned ?

Is this a common problem ? (Thinking of buying one of these myself)

PLUG71

Supergurrier wrote: »

Can they not be reconditioned ?

Is this a common problem ? (Thinking of buying one of these myself)

Its a common fault up to a pre- 2005 and the issue is sorted on any models after that.

They can be reconditioned but in my case some DIY wannabe left it so it could not be repaired!

Its a great car otherwise and apart from serviceing and tyres its never cost us a cent in repairs for the last four years!!

wonski

Have you tried ringing dealers up north to see how much they charge for this?

1200 for this is mad money, really.

PLUG71

wonski wrote: »

Have you tried ringing dealers up north to see how much they charge for this?

1200 for this is mad money, really.

Yeah they want £800 plus £100 diagnostics up front before they will order the cluster!!

slimjimmc

What part has failed? If it's the message display (item 26 on pg 6 of the owner's manual, link below) then don't worry, imo.

http://www.volvocars.com/uk/sales-services/services/owners-information/s60/pages/s60-my04.aspx

wonski

PLUG71 wrote: »

Yeah they want £800 plus £100 diagnostics up front before they will order the cluster!!

Interestingly they don't have a problem with setting the new unit in, but won't do it for a second hand one

I would check out Volvo owner forums. If it is known fault, then they should have some answers.
Since it is known fault the Volvo's take on the issue is ridiculous. Even if a car is 10 years old you would expect an instrument cluster to last longer than that, or at least be replaceable at an acceptable cost.

I hope someone will help you with this.

PLUG71

slimjimmc wrote: »

What part has failed? If it's the message display (item 26 on pg 5 of the owner's manual, link below) then don't worry, imo.

http://www.volvocars.com/uk/sales-services/services/owners-information/s60/pages/s60-my04.aspx

Unfortunatly the whole thing stays off and ever now and then it will all come back on for five minutes only to go off again!

PLUG71

wonski wrote: »

Interestingly they don't have a problem with setting the new unit in, but won't do it for a second hand one

I would check out Volvo owner forums. If it is known fault, then they should have some answers.
Since it is known fault the Volvo's take on the issue is ridiculous. Even if a car is 10 years old you would expect an instrument cluster to last longer than that, or at least be replaceable at an acceptable cost.

I hope someone will help you with this.

I have checked on the forums and it seems to be if your unit is deemed not repairable the owner is stuck with paying Volvo.

I would not mind but the car only has 80k on it fully service history!!:mad:

Guy:Incognito

Have you tried swapping in a 2nd hand set?

Im a member of the Volvo forums too and a lot of the info floating around isn't accurate. When I got my s80 last year I wanted to change a few bits because it's a Base model. I was told you couldn't swap out the air con panel for a climate control one or swap the radio. I've done both and added the centre dash speaker and under seat amp.
I've a second s80 I bought for spares and was going to swap the clocks over at some stage just to see if it works but haven't got around to it. Your welcome to have a go with yours. If it works I'll do you a deal :-)

PLUG71

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Have you tried swapping in a 2nd hand set?

Im a member of the Volvo forums too and a lot of the info floating around isn't accurate. When I got my s80 last year I wanted to change a few bits because it's a Base model. I was told you couldn't swap out the air con panel for a climate control one or swap the radio. I've done both and added the centre dash speaker and under seat amp.
I've a second s80 I bought for spares and was going to swap the clocks over at some stage just to see if it works but haven't got around to it. Your welcome to have a go with yours. If it works I'll do you a deal :-)

Thanyou very much for the offer.:)

Part of the problem with finding a secondhand cluster is that my cars an auto/tip and lots of people have said the serial numbers have to match up!???

Im willing to try anything at this stage

Chimaera

If I came across a little blunt I apologise. I've grown weary of people posting about some important functional/safety feature on their car not working and wanting to patch it together cheaply to get through an NCT instead of properly fixing it. (I'm also functioning on about 3 hours' sleep today!)

From my own experience messing around with VAG instruments, it's at least technically feasible to swap in secondhand clocks. The main sticking points are immobiliser and odometer. On VAG cars going back to the mid/late 90s, these functions are both included in the instrument cluster, so a cluster swap involves copying the data from one cluster to another. The VIN was usually in the cluster too. On later cars, the matching got more sophisticated and swaps have become more involved.

Some manufacturers store the odometer in the engine's ECU instead, and the cluster just reads/writes the data there. Some also have the immobiliser on its own controller. At this point the OP needs to get reliable information on the electrical architecture of their car to figure out how it's configured and what might be involved in a swap. If you're lucky, the data might be on one or two EEPROMS in which case you could desolder them from your original cluster and solder them into the new one.

Chimaera

Also, it's worth checking if the cluster from a later model can work in yours. It'd be a good way to avoid this trouble down the line.

darragh o meara

Id give this lad a call

http://www.kcsystems.ie

He's done work on clusters for me before and has always done a top job. I don't know if he does the Volvo ones but if there is anyone that can do them it'll either be him or he'll know someone.

ofcork

Crazy money alright I had to pay 440 about 8 years ago to replace the cluster in a laguna.

PLUG71

Ok it seems I have found a solution with this company in the UK who offer an exchange service supplying fully rebuilt units and in my case it will only cost £152.00 returned, guaranteed for 2 years!!

The problem with most firms is that if somebody else has previously tampered with your unit they will not agree to repairing it.

If like myself somebody has tampered with the unit all you have to do is call these guys and explain!!


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Volvo-V70-XC70-S60-S80-Speedo-Instrument-Cluster-Dash-Repair-Full-Guarantee-/161324319635


Happy days if it works out .

Thanks for all the peeps that helped with suggestions etc etc.

wonski

Good result. 152 pounds is reasonable money.

jimgoose

PLUG71 wrote: »

Ok it seems I have found a solution...

Excellent hurling. Another win for the magnificent men-in-sheds culture of the UK, as opposed to the ride-me-sideways-please-Mr.-Main-Dealer-Sur!! setup here. :pac:

PLUG71

A big thanks to this man Guy:Incognito :)for his offer to meet with me to try and see if a spare unit he has will work or not!!



Hi thanks for your offer its much appreciated!!

I have this morning found a firm in the UK that supply exchange refurbed units with a 2 year guarantee for £152 all in.

Its nice that are still people out there that will help others so once again thanks for the offer.

Regards PLUG.

wonski

jimgoose wrote: »

Excellent hurling. Another win for the magnificent men-in-sheds culture of the UK, as opposed to the ride-me-sideways-please-Mr.-Main-Dealer-Sur!! setup here. :pac:

To be fair the market over here is much smaller, so when it comes to some special orders and repairs you either pay top dollars or turn around and go to UK. Most of their businesses can be found online and collection / delivery takes 1 working day.

On many occasions had to use businesses in UK, not just for cars.

What I don't get is why garages in Ireland do not try to make contacts with guys in UK and make a little profit by referring customers. Win win for them and we wouldn't have to sit for hours online or on the phone to find a solution.

jimgoose

wonski wrote: »

...What I don't get is why garages in Ireland do not try to make contacts with guys in UK and make a little profit by referring customers. Win win for them and we wouldn't have to sit for hours online or on the phone to find a solution.

Simple. Most of them are as thick as bottled pig-sh!t and wouldn't know good business if it jumped up out of a manhole and bit them on the left arse-cheek. The default position, i.e. sit with your back half-turned to the customer, grunting and charging them €67.55 for headlamp bulb, is a lot easier anyway.

TeaBagMania

Storing the odometer reading within the cluster is one of the things I hate about Ford (I believe Volvo was under the Ford regime back in 2004)

You could fit a cluster from the scrapers; however, the odometer would read the mileage of the scrapped vehicle. Which is a good way to clock a newer car and pass it on to unsuspecting buyers (real smart Ford)

Not sure if Volvo offers this service but Ford has am online subscription based service that will allow you to access all the programming software and updates the dealer has. All you need is a laptop with internet capability and the correct ODB2 interface harness.

PLUG71

TeaBagMania wrote: »

Storing the odometer reading within the cluster is one of the things I hate about Ford (I believe Volvo was under the Ford regime back in 2004)

You could fit a cluster from the scrapers; however, the odometer would read the mileage of the scrapped vehicle. Which is a good way to clock a newer car and pass it on to unsuspecting buyers (real smart Ford)

Not sure if Volvo offers this service but Ford has am online subscription based service that will allow you to access all the programming software and updates the dealer has. All you need is a laptop with internet capability and the correct ODB2 interface harness.

Volvo are as much use as a chocolate teapot!! UK OR Eire.

They will only order a new unit if you pay up front and also pay for a diagnostic check first which all cost around €1250 plus a two hour each way drive in my case! :mad:

Cluster repair UK seem to be the only company I can find the offer an exchange service for most common cars.

So Volvo, UP YOURS !!!!!!!!

Chimaera

TeaBagMania wrote: »

Storing the odometer reading within the cluster is one of the things I hate about Ford (I believe Volvo was under the Ford regime back in 2004)

You could fit a cluster from the scrapers; however, the odometer would read the mileage of the scrapped vehicle. Which is a good way to clock a newer car and pass it on to unsuspecting buyers (real smart Ford)

Not sure if Volvo offers this service but Ford has am online subscription based service that will allow you to access all the programming software and updates the dealer has. All you need is a laptop with internet capability and the correct ODB2 interface harness.

VAG store it in the cluster too. Newer models store information in the engine ECU allowing the odometer reading to be estimated to within a few thousand km using diagnostics. It serves as an un-editable crosscheck for the odometer reading if you know what to look for.

dr.fuzzenstein

Chimaera wrote: »

VAG store it in the cluster too. Newer models store information in the engine ECU allowing the odometer reading to be estimated to within a few thousand km using diagnostics. It serves as an un-editable crosscheck for the odometer reading if you know what to look for.

I wonder about the new laws regarding clocking.
It is legal to swap over the instrument cluster, but is it now illegal to adjust the mileage of same, so that it reads the correct mileage?

Supergurrier

http://www.adverts.ie/other-repair-services/diagnostics-airbag-repair-dashboard-repair-ecu-repair-electrician-mechanic/2002977

http://www.buyandsell.ie/motors/car-parts-and-spares/cork/digital-speedometer-repair-2

http://fermoygarage.com/?page_id=178

http://www.kcsystems.ie/speedometers.html

Ring these before forking out

wonski

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I wonder about the new laws regarding clocking.
It is legal to swap over the instrument cluster, but is it now illegal to adjust the mileage of same, so that it reads the correct mileage?

That's a good question.

I don't think it is illegal to adjust the milage, if it was the OP might need a few trips around the world (and a fortune for a petrol) to make his car legal:D

That might explain why the dealers didn't want to touch a second hand unit.

dr.fuzzenstein

wonski wrote: »

That's a good question.

I don't think it is illegal to adjust the milage, if it was the OP might need a few trips around the world (and a fortune for a petrol) to make his car legal:D

That might explain why the dealers didn't want to touch a second hand unit.

I suppose they might call it a clusterfcuk. :P

CJhaughey

Reminds me of the wheeler dealers episode with the Maserati Quattroporte
The butterfly in the throttle body packed up and a new one was stupid money, some geezer in a shed rebuilds them better than new for a fraction of the cost.
That kind of ingenuity is a business opportunity for anyone no matter where they are in the world.
The Internet has made fixing things economical for lots of people.

PLUG71

Ok guys I have an update!

Thanks to Cluster Repairs UK I now have a fully repaired cluster :cool:

Even the mileage is correct still!!!:)

It cost €270 to sort out with a two year warranty!

Bare in mind Volvo wanted over €1200.

Thanks again for all the help and advice and my T5 lives again :cool:

slimjimmc

wonski wrote: »

That's a good question.

I don't think it is illegal to adjust the milage, if it was the OP might need a few trips around the world (and a fortune for a petrol) to make his car legal:D

That might explain why the dealers didn't want to touch a second hand unit.

Just to answer this question, the new law does indeed make it illegal to adjust the mileage as it's an offence to interfere or even attempt to interfere with the odometer. However you have a defence if you can show it was done for the right reasons. That might make a dealer cagey about what's allowed.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2014/en/act/pub/0003/sec0014.html#sec14

Interference with odometer of mechanically propelled vehicle

14. (1) A person shall not interfere or attempt to interfere with the odometer of a mechanically propelled vehicle.
(2) A person who contravenes, or who procures another person to contravene, subsection (1) commits an offence and is liable on summary conviction to a class C fine or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 months, or to both.
(3) Where a member of the Garda Síochána has reasonable grounds for believing that a person is committing or has committed an offence under this section he or she may arrest the person without warrant.
(4) Where a person is charged with an offence under this section it shall be a defence to show that at the time of the alleged offence the person was acting in good faith in order to test, repair or replace the odometer of the mechanically propelled vehicle.
(5) In this section “odometer”, in relation to a mechanically propelled vehicle, means the device that measures and records the distance travelled by the vehicle but does not include an auxiliary device capable of being reset to measure and record individual journeys.

wonski

slimjimmc wrote: »

Just to answer this question, the new law does indeed make it illegal to adjust the mileage as it's an offence to interfere or even attempt to interfere with the odometer. However you have a defence if you can show it was done for the right reasons. That might make a dealer cagey about what's allowed.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2014/en/act/pub/0003/sec0014.html#sec14

Changing the whole instrument cluster is not tempering with an existing odometer. That is another loophole opened.

Some cars store the mileage in other components, so there is no faul play in replacing the main odometer itself.

The law is unclear on the OP's situation qhich is a genuine situation tbh.

Glad to see OP got sorted for reasonable amount of money anyway, those Volvos are nice cars and deserve another life on our roads:D

slimjimmc

wonski wrote: »

Changing the whole instrument cluster is not tempering with an existing odometer. That is another loophole opened.

Some cars store the mileage in other components, so there is no faul play in replacing the main odometer itself.

The law is unclear on the OP's situation qhich is a genuine situation tbh.

Glad to see OP got sorted for reasonable amount of money anyway, those Volvos are nice cars and deserve another life on our roads:D

Replacing the whole cluster including the odometer would certainly be seen as interfering since the replacement odometer does not belong to the car, it's effectively no different to replacing the odometer on it's own.

If the mileage is measured and recorded in other components then by definition they are the "odometer" so replacing the display may be ok. But, as you say the law is unclear, which is another reason to be wary. If you can show you have a legitimate reason then you're unlikely to be penalised.

wonski

slimjimmc wrote: »

Replacing the whole cluster including the odometer would certainly be seen as interfering since the replacement odometer does not belong to the car, it's effectively no different to replacing the odometer on it's own.

If the mileage is measured and recorded in other components then by definition they are the "odometer" so replacing the display may be ok. But, as you say the law is unclear, which is another reason to be wary. If you can show you have a legitimate reason then you're unlikely to be penalised.

Not having an odometer at all is a legitimate reason. And a loophole, too tbh.

The law is unclear, the trade has its ways. Waste of time the whole law was imo. I doubt anyone will be ever done for it - a written law that makes no sense really. Good publicity some time ago, that is all. Plenty of cars are being imported at the moment, and as long as their odometers are fixed prior to arrival, no offence is committed.

A joke really, and it is us - true car lovers / owners and enthusiasts who really care. By "care" I meant we asked the questions;)

The rest of the trade doesn't care at all. That law is dead.

dr.fuzzenstein

slimjimmc wrote: »

Replacing the whole cluster including the odometer would certainly be seen as interfering since the replacement odometer does not belong to the car, it's effectively no different to replacing the odometer on it's own.

If the mileage is measured and recorded in other components then by definition they are the "odometer" so replacing the display may be ok. But, as you say the law is unclear, which is another reason to be wary. If you can show you have a legitimate reason then you're unlikely to be penalised.

My interpretation is that adjusting the mileage at all in any way, shape or form WILL lead to prosecution and only if you have a good reason for doing it will you be let off.
That means if some copper in a foul mood has it in for someone who replaced an instrument cluster, he can bring him to court for adjusting the mileage under any circumstances and it is up to that person to defend themselves and prove it was done for legit reasons.

jca

Take the good out of the op's good result why don't ye? How in God's name would a cop know if someone had a replacement cluster and as the op has said, the mileage hasn't been altered.

jca

CJhaughey wrote: »

Reminds me of the wheeler dealers episode with the Maserati Quattroporte
The butterfly in the throttle body packed up and a new one was stupid money, some geezer in a shed rebuilds them better than new for a fraction of the cost.
That kind of ingenuity is a business opportunity for anyone no matter where they are in the world.
The Internet has made fixing things economical for lots of people.

I find people using the term "some geezer in a shed" a bit insulting. These people are very skilled and are the fallout from the collapse of the car industry through no fault of their own.

jimgoose

jca wrote: »

I find people using the term "some geezer in a shed" a bit insulting. These people are very skilled and are the fallout from the collapse of the car industry through no fault of their own.

Say it, brother. There's a lot to be said for Men-In-Sheds culture like in the UK, which we simply do not have here. Most of these characters are highly skilled engineers, without the glass-palace overheads of some outfits.

CJhaughey

jca wrote: »

I find people using the term "some geezer in a shed" a bit insulting. These people are very skilled and are the fallout from the collapse of the car industry through no fault of their own.

They may not necessarily have been ever part of the Auto industry, they may just like cars or be a skilled enough technician that they can turn their hand to anything.
Geezer in a shed is exactly what the guy on Wheeler dealers is, FFS he even calls himself the Maserati shed!

PLUG71

wonski wrote: »

Not having an odometer at all is a legitimate reason. And a loophole, too tbh.

The law is unclear, the trade has its ways. Waste of time the whole law was imo. I doubt anyone will be ever done for it - a written law that makes no sense really. Good publicity some time ago, that is all. Plenty of cars are being imported at the moment, and as long as their odometers are fixed prior to arrival, no offence is committed.

A joke really, and it is us - true car lovers / owners and enthusiasts who really care. By "care" I meant we asked the questions;)

The rest of the trade doesn't care at all. That law is dead.

So, so true!