Brother Ignoring Mother

LegacyUser

I need advice in regards to a family situation. One of my brothers has a Romanian girlfriend and they had a daughter 18 months ago. Four months ago he stopped talking to my Mother because she arrived unexpectedly at their house to see them. I was with her at the time.

The girlfriend and the child were in the house and it took her a while to answer the door and when she did she had her phone in her hand. She said my brother was just a few minutes from home. We chatted normally and looked at the child playing. We hardly ever get to hold her or interact with her. As a baby she was never given to us to hold. I used to be cheeky and ask! My brother came home not long after us arriving and he was very quiet. When his girlfriend went to make tea my brother laid into my Mother for not ringing before calling round saying he had asked her loads of times to do it and why cant she just do it. He was very angry and looking back it was probably because the girlfriend had been giving out to him on the phone about us arriving. She must have seen us through the window. My Mam replied that she didn't think families should have to call especially being his mother. And that when she did call before he wasn't available. She was close to crying and said we should go. I made her stay and I tried to sort it out by saying she should call before visiting. He agreed and it calmed down after that. It was tense though and very uncomfortable and my poor Mam managed to give the child a quick cuddle before leaving a few hours later. They haven't really spoken since, except at a family do. She texted him a few times to ask him to visit but he hasn't replied.

I feel terrible for not standing up for her when he was treating her so badly, esp in front of the child and the girlfriend nearby. It was extremely disrespectful and hurtful. I'm not good in arguments but I think it's important to talk about issues to sort them out. Which is why I am on here. I don't know if I should speak to my brother about this. Or how to go about it. No one else in my family has spoken to him about it but we are all in agreement about how crazy and stupid it is. His life has changed since having the baby. He has given up his hobbies and seeing his friends. Him and his girlfriend expect my Mam to visit them much more than she does. There have been lots of rows about this. They hardly ever visit her even though she lives alone. My brother never made much of an effort with us a family before but now he has a child and a girlfriend he is expecting us to behave like a 'perfect family'. We think most of this behaviour is coming from the girlfriend but that's still no excuse. My Mam is a good person and loves her grandchild. Personally, I have never got on with this brother but if no one else talks to him about the situation then I may have to. How does one go about approaching the subject? I'm very angry at him and feel so sorry for my Mam.

Neyite

I'm going to take your brothers side on this.

Its manners to call before landing on a doorstep, how do you know that 'the girlfriend' as you quite wonderfully describe her, had not been up all night with a crying baby and the one chance she had to take a nap, you land up and expect to be entertained. And whatever your dubious feelings you have towards the childs mother, you had absolutely no regard whatsoever that the baby might be in a nap, or that she needed to go somewhere with the baby, or maybe even just wanted to get out for a walk. Not calling before arriving is very bad manners, and I would apply that to my own mother who I love dearly.

Its much easier with all the stuff that comes with a baby to ask the adult to visit you instead. Thats what my mother did. Occasionally I'd go to visit her, but the car would be filled to the brim with travel cot, steriliser, buggy, nappies, travel highchair, bedding, changes of cloths, black out blinds etc. But it was far easier for her to throw her PJ's into a bag and come and stay with me.

Your brother gave up his hobbies because he has less free time now that he is a new dad. Parents dont get free time like they used to, and yes, parenthood can change people.

You do realise that if he and his girlfriend were to split - say, over his ongoing family issues, your brother has very few rights as an unmarried father, and you and your mother have none whatsoever. She and his child are his family now. Not you or your mother. It seems to me that your brother is setting boundaries that work for his family. If you want to maintain a relationship with him and his child, you need to respect that. You really have no right to be mad at him considering your mother is acting the martyr here.

Pawwed Rig

I would leave it between your brother and mother if I was you. If he wants her to let him know before she pops over then she should respect that. Many people do not like uninvited guests so maybe it has caused issues between your brother and his gf?

There seems to be other issues at play here though and paragraph 3 of your post contradicts paragraph 2 in that he expects your mother to visit more often but doesn't respond to her when she wants to visit.

Are your family friendly with the gf? Your post seems to blame alot on her.

dee_mc

You mention what you perceive as your brother's lack of respect for your mother, but it sounds like your mother isn't showing a whole lot of respect for your brother and his partner, either.
I don't get the bit about him wanting her to visit more often, as you seem to also suggest they have a tense or difficult relationship... Anyway that's probably not important.
To be honest if I were in your shoes, I wouldn't be wading in, especially since you yourself aren't close to your brother.
If you want to see the child more, then sort that out obviously, but leave your mum and brother to fight out their situation themselves.

LegacyUser

I m going through a similar situation as your brother at the moment. My in laws love calling over unannounced which I hate. Yes family do need to ask to call and people do not always want visitors and that's OK it does not make them rude and disrespectful.

I also understand not always giving the child over to other people, it's not your baby it's up to the mother to decide if the baby is up to other people handling them. Your mother is the granny not the mother and I often think grandparents forget this and want to relive their own experience again.

Flippyfloppy

The fact is your brother had repeatedly asked your mother to let them know if she's calling and she's chosen to ignore that because it doesn't suit her. That is rude. Why can't she find out when is a good time to call?!?

Babies nap quite often. If you drop in to a visit half an hour before the baby is due a nap chances are they won't go down. If you stay FOR HOURS like you said in your post, they will have missed their nap & then mightn't eat their dinner & wake up through the whole night over tired & hungry, meaning no one gets any sleep.

If your mother has been the cause of this for 14 months no wonder there's tension there.

As well, there's a definite possibility mother & baby were about to have a nap/a bath/a shower .....who knows. It must be terribly difficult for the MOTHER (not 'girlfriend') to have to deal with in-laws such as yourselves.

And yes no wonder she was on the phone to your brother, sounds like you're both lucky she didn't tear into you herself.

Your mother will have to learn, if she wants to get to know this family she will have to respect their needs. Would she refuse to give notice when calling to a friends because they're never available when she does so? Get the hint grandma!


Google this issue. Lots of new families have issues with extended families who don't recognize boundaries!

Big Bag of Chips

I understand what your mother means by family shouldn't have to ring ahead. But she is not the girlfriend's family.

I wouldn't be too bothered if my mother arrived unexpectedly. But my husband would hate it. He'd like the chance to straighten the place up a bit and be ready! Similarly, I'd hate for his parents to land on our door unannounced too.

His gf, regardless of what you think of her is entitled to a say too. Maybe the house was a mess and she was running around stuffing things into cupboards while you were on the doorstep?

I do think your brother should have made more of an effort to allow your mam over to see the baby. If she contacted him a few times and he was always busy then that sounds like excuses. And maybe had you posted before this people would have advised to just call over one day!!

You can't really win.

I don't know how you move forward from this if your brother isn't interested in listening though. Maybe let the dust settle for a while. Don't be hounding him with texts or calls etc, and try again.

Chattastrophe!

It is extremely rude and inconsiderate to show up at anyone's door unannounced. And being "family" doesn't make it OK (by the way, this woman is not your family, the fact that she's had a child with your brother doesn't change this. She chose to get into a relationship with your brother, not with you, not with your mother.) It is so disrespectful. People have plans, even if her plan was just to spend that time chilling out or having a nap, you're basically intruding on her and implying that your time is more important than hers, who cares about her plans, you're there now so she has to entertain you.

If you want to help improve the situation, I'd be explaining this to your mother. You both owe your brother and his girlfriend an apology. Apologise to them, promise that it won't happen again, and honour that promise. It's really not that much to ask. It's their house, not yours.

It's very likely that you'll be able to work on a better relationship with this woman if you respect the boundaries. It's just manners.

You're not alone, by the way. It's very common for tension to exist between the "mother-in-law" and "daughter-in-law" (I know they're not married, but the essential relationships are the same.) It's hard for the mother to let go and realise that her son is a grown man with his own family, and she has no real claim or control over this family. Your mother needs to accept that this is the case, though, and she needs to end the mindset that she has a right to intrude into their lives as and when suits her.

Fair play to your brother for presenting a united front on this issue with his girlfriend. He obviously (correctly) realises that his priorities lie with his own family - i.e. his girlfriend and their child.

I really think it's very likely that they'll be open to more visits, if you acknowledge where you've went wrong and make prior arrangements in future. It's not much to ask.

Chattastrophe!

And by the way, you're right, it was cheeky of you to ask to hold the baby when they were small, when you hadn't been offered. It's pretty much the most basic rule when visiting a mother with a new baby. You wait until the mother offers (and if she doesn't, that's OK too.)

Personally I never had any problem with handing my newborn over to visitors (so long as he was in a good mood), but some mothers do, and it's their right to decide when/if to do so - when they're comfortable with it. It's not OK to expect you have an automatic right to hold the baby - sometimes if the baby is overtired or teething or whatever, the mother knows that being held by a stranger (to them) will make them even more unsettled after you leave, you should respect this.

Ande1975

To be honest, I think the responses here are a bit overly harsh on the OP.
The baby isn't a newborn, the baby is 18 months old and no doubt walking by now.
Babies start to reduce the naps after a certain time and I'm guessing the mom has some cop on to know when is feeding/bathing time. Baby's been around for a year and a half.
18 months of not being able to hold the baby without asking? That's just plain weird.
I agree that your mum should call first, that's a given. I would expect the same with mine as I need to sort out the stuff but I do think your brother needs to cut your mother some slack.
There is a healthy balance here and maybe you can help them build the bridge.
Do you live near your brother? Calling around for a few hours versus packing up for an overnighter are two different things.
Also I'm sure at some point, your brother will be knocking on your mum's door for advice and support. If my family are anything to go by....

LegacyUser

Harsh replies my god. You'd swear the OPs mother put a gun to the gf's head at the door.

The gf didnt have to answer? She could have left them there, made an excuse that she was asleep etc.

Maybe I'm just shocked at the responses because in my family, it wouldnt even be an issue if anyone turned up at your door, no matter what hour, or what state the house is in.

Obviously my family is different but jesus like it's not as if the OP and her mam committed some hideous crime here. Yeah fair enough maybe the gf doesnt want them turning up unannounced, big deal, dont answer the door in future - simple as that. No need for the brother to be passive aggressive now, ignoring the mother. If he has a problem, come out and say it and ensure the Mother is clear when it's ok to visit.

Think it's really sad that you cant even hold your own nephew/niece OP. Again, I must have a seriously different, laid back family and I thank my stars for them after reading some of the responses here.

ManOfMystery

I think the responses are harsh too.

I have a 9 month old child so I'd like to think I have some experience of this issue. As has already been stated above, sometimes myself (and my wife) are really not in the mood for people to call - he may have had a bad night teething and thus we've been up all night, or we may be trying to feed him and the distraction makes it very difficult.

However - if my mother arrived unannounced as a one-off, I certainly wouldn't turn her away. And ignoring her and cutting contact for 4 months? Talk about a gross over-reaction.

People arriving unannounced on your doorstep can be considered as rude, and it's not something I'd tolerate from strangers or casual associates, or even some friends. But we're chatting about a mother and grandmother here. If my mother was driving past and didn't want to say a quick hello I'd find it strange, but then we live some distance apart so perhaps my perspective is different.

I don't think it's fair at all that your brother has effectively severed communications and barred your mother from seeing her grandson just because she decided to visit him without arranging it all 'officially'. It's a hideously OTT response to something which is an irritation at best.

GarIT

I really think your mother is extremely rude and completely wrong in this situation, she should never have came over without asking especially when she was told to call first.

Also about holding the child, you say it like it is some sort of right you and your mother have. You don't know about their culture or how they are raising the child if you don't get to hold the child that's not a problem at all, your mother shouldn't have cuddled the child without its parent's permission, if they don't want you or youR mother touching or holding the child that is their right and it shouldn't be an issue for you.

You say they don't visit, they have an 18 month old child, do you have any idea of how much work that is? They are probably busy a lot of the time and that's ok too.

I think your mother a lot of apologising to do.

Pawwed Rig

ManOfMystery wrote: »

I don't think it's fair at all that your brother has effectively severed communications and barred your mother from seeing her grandson just because she decided to visit him without arranging it all 'officially'. It's a hideously OTT response to something which is an irritation at best.

From the OP I thought the mother was popping in unannounced all the time even after the brother asked her to let him know when she was coming. That said there is more going on here than meets the eye. The descriptions of the gf would lead me to think there is some animosity there.

Chattastrophe! wrote: »

And by the way, you're right, it was cheeky of you to ask to hold the baby when they were small, when you hadn't been offered. It's pretty much the most basic rule when visiting a mother with a new baby. You wait until the mother offers (and if she doesn't, that's OK too.)

Ahem Parent, not mother

Barely There

GarIT wrote: »

if they don't want you or youR mother touching or holding the child that is their right and it shouldn't be an issue for you.

It'd imagine it would be an issue for pretty much every grandparent if they were barred from touching or holding their grandchild.

Some of the responses here seem like they've been written by people from another planet.

IrishEyes19

I'm going lone on this I suspect, but I can see both sides. My mother's side of the family grew up the times when families were close knit as well as extended families. My relatives on that side for instance will walk through the back door and show up on surprise. My mam doesn't blink an eye because it was common practice when she was a child and it showed easiness and they were comfortable.

I can also understand why the gf and your brother might be annoyed. they may have had a bad night with the baby or the house might not be in the best state beforehand. You never know.

I think you should talk to your mother and explain the different times because I think its as simple as that.

I will add however that people dont seem to realise this was a common practice in the past, particularly in rural parts and people dont often think the same. so for instance one person construes someone walking in, no problem, making themselves a cup of tea as comfortable and not awkward, whereas another person feels invaded, and thinks it incredibly rude and forward. And neither person is wrong there because people all set different standards for their home. So,OP, the standard has been set for your brothers home and I think to maintain the relationship with her grandchild and son, your mam will have to follow those standards. best of luck

Neyite

Your mother is incapable of even so much as a text to say that she would arrive in an hour? Despite being asked repeatedly, nicely by your brother? So your mother, decided to plough on her way, and gets offended when she gets put back in her box by your brother.

Does your mother dislike your brothers partner the way you do? Because I'm wondering that maybe she liked to drop in unannounced so find things not to her standards and have a good old bitch about her grandchild's mother. Like you do? Your brothers partner is not stupid and knows she is disliked and held responsible for everything you deem wrong with your brothers life, why should she even facilitate your family?

You make it clear in your OP that you do not consider your brothers partner to be family. Why then do you land in on top of her in her own home as family when it suits you? You lay the blame at turning up unannounced at your mothers feet, but you were there too! Why didnt you send a 'we are on our way' text?

I think you forced this current standoff after your brother arrived hom. Your mother was upset, but instead of saving embarassment for everyone - your brother, his partner and your mother, you were the one that insisted that everyone stay and resolve while tensions were high and everyone was upset. So if anyone is to blame for the Cold front currently, its probably you. You could have let your mother leave and let her discuss it with your brother in private. You could have suggested that your mother and daughter in law meet for coffee another time that suits both and resolve their differences. But YOU made them all tackle it there and then and caused your brother to take the stance that he has.

You have no awareness of how you contributed to this whole fiasco. And now you want to meddle more to fix things? Let them work it out themselves.

GarIT

Barely There wrote: »

It'd imagine it would be an issue for pretty much every grandparent if they were barred from touching or holding their grandchild.

Some of the responses here seem like they've been written by people from another planet.

I'm sure it would be an issue for the grandmother but the reality is that she has no rights or choice in the matter, the decision belongs to the parents and nobody else.

Neyite

IrishEyes19 wrote: »

I'm going lone on this I suspect, but I can see both sides. My mother's side of the family grew up the times when families were close knit as well as extended families. My relatives on that side for instance will walk through the back door and show up on surprise. My mam doesn't blink an eye because it was common practice when she was a child and it showed easiness and they were comfortable.

True. But that works when everyone gets along, and feels part of one big happy family.

The OP has made it clear that the brothers partner is not considered part of the family, and more, is actively disliked by some of them. Then granny gets defensive when she is likewise treated like a visitor instead of family.

So they cant have it both ways.

GarIT

In this situation the grandmother has two choices accept the child's parents decisions regarding the child or be ignored.

Barely There

GarIT wrote: »

I'm sure it would be an issue for the grandmother but the reality is that she has no rights or choice in the matter, the decision belongs to the parents and nobody else.

Glad to see you admit you were wrong.

GarIT wrote: »

, if they don't want you or youR mother touching or holding the child that is their right and it shouldn't be an issue for you.

GarIT

Barely There wrote: »

Glad to see you admit you were wrong.

Context. Emotionally it might be an issue for the grandmother not not be allowed hold the child but it shouldn't be an issue for the grandmother to physically obey the parents wishes regarding holding the child.

Of course it could be an issue emotionally but it's not something she has any choice in.

Ande1975

I re read the OP's post again and for the life of me I can't understand why people are so over the top in their responses.
OP, how old is your mum? Some people turn into absolute nutters when they have babies thinking no one else has EVER done it before.
It reads from the OP, that the brother & his girlfriend do not want to have the mum around as it states that whenever his mum does call ahead, the brother isn't available.
The poor mum just wants to see her son and grandchild.
What is wrong with that? This business of 'obeying' parents etc is a load of toss if you ask me. Crikey... I've only ever seen these dramatics with mothers and daughter in laws but never have I seen it with mothers and daughters.
Having a grandmother who can help is a godsend and I've seen so many difficult situations made better by the grandparents.
Also, the OP has never referred to the girlfriend as not being part of the family.
This thread is making me lose faith in families. I would just love to know how the brother and his girlfriend would react if their 18 month old grew up to treat their mum like that.

Barely There

GarIT wrote: »

Context. Emotionally it might be an issue for the grandmother not not be allowed hold the child but it shouldn't be an issue for the grandmother to physically obey the parents wishes regarding holding the child.

Of course it could be an issue emotionally but it's not something she has any choice in.

Nothing to do with 'context' - and it's probably easier to admit you're wrong than to try and reinvent the English language.

GarIT

Barely There wrote: »

Nothing to do with 'context' - and it's probably easier to admit you're wrong than to try and reinvent the English language.

If I was wrong I wouldn't have a problem admitting it, although maybe I wasn't clear enough. The point I was making about it not being an issue was that it shouldn't be an issue for the grandmother to physically refrain from holding the child if that is the parents wishes. You decided I meant it as in it shouldn't be a problem emotionally. If you want to assume I meant something I didn't and thing I'm wrong fine it doesn't really bother me.

To think that a grandmother would not be upset when told they cant hold their grandchild would be extremely stupid, if you want to think I'm that stupid that I'd come out with something like that go ahead, even though it's clearly not what I meant.

EDIT: Maybe my first post should have read as, "The grandmother shouldn't have made an issue about not being offered to hold the child", that's what I meant not that is shouldn't be an emotional issue.

GarIT

Ande1975 wrote: »

I re read the OP's post again and for the life of me I can't understand why people are so over the top in their responses.
OP, how old is your mum? Some people turn into absolute nutters when they have babies thinking no one else has EVER done it before.
It reads from the OP, that the brother & his girlfriend do not want to have the mum around as it states that whenever his mum does call ahead, the brother isn't available.
The poor mum just wants to see her son and grandchild.
What is wrong with that? This business of 'obeying' parents etc is a load of toss if you ask me. Crikey... I've only ever seen these dramatics with mothers and daughter in laws but never have I seen it with mothers and daughters.
Having a grandmother who can help is a godsend and I've seen so many difficult situations made better by the grandparents.
Also, the OP has never referred to the girlfriend as not being part of the family.
This thread is making me lose faith in families. I would just love to know how the brother and his girlfriend would react if their 18 month old grew up to treat their mum like that.

There is nothing wrong with the grandmother wanting to be around the child. However the parents have made their decision on how/when they want interaction to happen and it seems they would like to have more control over access to the child than the grandmother is willing to accept. What's wrong is the grandmother trying to force the issue and make the situation difficult for the parents and not respecting their wishes.

December2012

Why do you mention the fact that the girlfriend is Romanian? how is it relevant?

your mother is in the wrong here - it doesn't matter how much she wants to see the child. She can't simply see the child because she wants to. She is not the child's parent, neither are you, and you cannot come over to anybody whenever you want and pick up their children whenever you want. You are the child's granny and aunt, and that's it.

Your brother sounds like he is doing the right thing by his family - i.e. his girlfriend and child. Your mother did not take on board his concerns, and that is disrespectful. He needs to be supported by his mother as he moves into the role of parenthood, although by presenting a united front with his girlfriend and by putting the child's needs before yours or his mothers he is doing fine in my opinion.

It's clear you don't like your sister in law, so do you expect her to be welcoming to you when you call in unannounced? Why would she give you her child to hold? The child is part Romanian too, maybe she suspects that's why you don't like her?

I think that you should stay out of it - its between your mother and her son. Maybe your mother has a problem with boundaries, but that's really between her and your brother.

If you want to see your brothers child you should make friends with your brother and his girlfriend. She matters more than you do to him and she will be in your life forever.

Big Bag of Chips

Barely There, you've posted 3 times to this thread, and none of them offering any advice to the OP just trying to draw another poster into an argument. All posters are asked to keep the Charter in mind when posting. Petty on thread squabbles add nothing by way of advice to the OP.

LegacyUser

Wow some very strong responses there and understandably as I'm sure people have had lots of similar experiences. I didn't clarify my position clearly. Yes, I do agree that we should have called beforehand. We argued about it in the car before but I went along with it cos I wanted to see the child and I don't have my own transport. I have since said it to my Mam a few times. I said that it is their house and their rules and it's just something she has to do. But when she did ring before she was given excuses. My Mam does have to learn that this is what she needs to do and she is beginning to accept that. But does that really deserve cutting off contact with her? I think it's very harsh and a gross over reaction.

Neyite: What is wrong with calling her 'the girlfriend'? If I say Mother it's confusing with my Mother.
I understand it is very hard being a parent and it's hard to travel. But twice in one year when my Mam is only one hours drive away?
Also I'm well aware of the rights of fathers, they have none. In fact, I don't think he has even applied for legal guardianship.

In regards to your second post Neyite, wow! I think maybe you have had harsh treatment from your own inlaws and are projecting that onto this situation? Because no where in my post did I say I don't consider my brother's girlfriend family. IYou have no idea what any of the family dynamics are like. My Mother never comments on 'standards'. She lets people live their lives how they want to. And I didn't force them to discuss things. I stayed quiet the whole time my brother was laying into my mother. I stopped my Mam from storming out because I was afraid of exactly this situation, a stand off. All I did was say to my brother that me and my mother should have rang before and that we'd do that in the future. And we had a normal chat after that without mentioning the situation. It was uncomfortable and tense of course but there was no big discussion and we didn't discuss anything with at all with the mother of the child. Blaming me for all this is ridiculous. But I certainly will leave it up to them to sort out.

People are judging this situation based on just what I've written but like Pawed Rig said, there is a lot more going on besides. The mother of the child regularly gives out about us to my other brothers' girlfriends that we don't visit enough. She didn't visit at Christmas because of the perceived lack of my Mother's visits and she didn't want the child to go with my brother either. He had a big fight with her in order to bring the child for an hour's visit.

I'm really shocked that some people think it is not ok for a grandmother to give her toddler grandchild a quick cuddle before leaving. Do we seriously need to ask permission before we touch her? I agree with that in the case of a newborn. But I would have hardly ever got to hold her as a baby if I hadn't asked. I only asked my brother a few times and when the baby was older.

Ande1975

GarIT wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with the grandmother wanting to be around the child. However the parents have made their decision on how/when they want interaction to happen and it seems they would like to have more control over access to the child than the grandmother is willing to accept. What's wrong is the grandmother trying to force the issue and make the situation difficult for the parents and not respecting their wishes.

I think what the OP is inferring is (and OP forgive me if I am wrong) is that this control of access isn't necessarily coming from the brother but more of an influence of the girlfriend.
I don't think the grandmother is trying to 'force' the issue as you put it - that's why I asked how old the grandmother is as she may not understand this 'access' issue.
I see it with my own parents, as they get older they forget that things are different. The issue is with the brother and his girlfriend now handling the situation with the grandmother properly.
A bit of kindness and understanding wouldn't go astray. I bet you any money that if the girlfriend's mother showed up, she would be treated totally different.
There will come a day when that couple needs the grandmother's help. I just think its sad.
I heard a saying that is so true 'Your son is your son until he takes a wife, your daughter is your daughter for life'

Chattastrophe!

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

From the OP I thought the mother was popping in unannounced all the time even after the brother asked her to let him know when she was coming. That said there is more going on here than meets the eye. The descriptions of the gf would lead me to think there is some animosity there.


Ahem Parent, not mother

OK, I'm sorry, but parents don't always respond the same to mothers to these sort of things.

I was cool with others holding the small baby.

It's totally OK and understandable that others mightn't be. And there is no rush on anyone. F*cking hell.. People should take as much time as they need.

LegacyUser

December2012 wrote: »

Why do you mention the fact that the girlfriend is Romanian? how is it relevant?

It's relevant because Romanian's attitudes to family is different to ours. They are a lot more involved. Ande1975 was right, the girlfriends Mother's role is completely different. She has lived with them for roughly half the childs life and acts like a second Mother. My Mam is in her late 60's

December2012 wrote: »

Why would she give you her child to hold? The child is part Romanian too, maybe she suspects that's why you don't like her?

Really? You think this is a race issue?! You couldn't be further from the truth. Do you have nieces and nephews? How would you feel if you barely got to interact with them? We love her and want to have a relationship with her. I totally understand boundaries and I'm willing to respect them. But visiting and looking at the child from afar isn't bonding. Obviously if that's all that is acceptable to the childs Mother then I'll have to accept that.

LegacyUser

Some of the responses have been seriously insane on this thread I really cant pick my jaw up from the floor.

Seeing your 2nd post OP, it was good to get more info, as we really only had your first post to go by, but I still stand by what I said on page one. It seems to me that your Mam doesnt get to see the child often? Maybe that would explain her slight desperation in turning up at the house.
Cannot for the life of me understand why you have to ASK if you can hold your 18month old niece/nephew?? WTF? I'm sorry! I seriously just cannot get my head around that! Just goes to show different strokes...

Magicmatilda

Perhaps the solution here is for your grandmother to contact her grandchild's mother directly and say that she would like to call over to see her grandchild and when would be suitable.

I agree that I would not want my mother or my partners mother calling over without warning. Especially given that you said it to her and your brother had said it to her. So why in god's name did she ignore that and go ahead with having her own way? That is very controlling and arrogant behaviour. Is your mother a controlling person? Does she have to have her own way?

You say that when she called she was always given excuses. But maybe they were not excuses but reasons. Maybe the time she wanted to call didn't suit. That is why I say she should ask them to suggest a suitable time.

Also I don't see the relevance of your brother's girlfriend being Romanian, why did you mention that? Because it must have some significance for you or you would not have mentioned it? Think about that one, because if you are judging her on her nationality that will come accross. You have described your brothers girlfriend in negative terms so I would agree that maybe she knows you don't like her and maybe she knows that is because she is Romanian and not a "nice Irish girl".

Finally you said in your OP that you stayed for Hours? Is it necessary to stay for hours, couldn't you just call for one hour? I say that because I would hate someone calling to me for hours and it would put me off having them over. Unless they were a friend who I have a good old laugh with. I would be much more likely to welcome a visitor who was there to see my child for a short time than someone taking over my whole evening.

Neyite

concerneddaughter wrote: »

Neyite: What is wrong with calling her 'the girlfriend'? If I say Mother it's confusing with my Mother.
I understand it is very hard being a parent and it's hard to travel. But twice in one year when my Mam is only one hours drive away?
Also I'm well aware of the rights of fathers, they have none. In fact, I don't think he has even applied for legal guardianship.

In regards to your second post Neyite, wow! I think maybe you have had harsh treatment from your own inlaws and are projecting that onto this situation? Because no where in my post did I say I don't consider my brother's girlfriend family. IYou have no idea what any of the family dynamics are like. My Mother never comments on 'standards'. She lets people live their lives how they want to. And I didn't force them to discuss things. I stayed quiet the whole time my brother was laying into my mother. I stopped my Mam from storming out because I was afraid of exactly this situation, a stand off. All I did was say to my brother that me and my mother should have rang before and that we'd do that in the future. And we had a normal chat after that without mentioning the situation. It was uncomfortable and tense of course but there was no big discussion and we didn't discuss anything with at all with the mother of the child. Blaming me for all this is ridiculous. But I certainly will leave it up to them to sort out.

People are judging this situation based on just what I've written but like Pawed Rig said, there is a lot more going on besides. The mother of the child regularly gives out about us to my other brothers' girlfriends that we don't visit enough. She didn't visit at Christmas because of the perceived lack of my Mother's visits and she didn't want the child to go with my brother either. He had a big fight with her in order to bring the child for an hour's visit.

I actually have a pretty decent relationship with my inlaws, my mother in law included- she has her moments no more than my own mother, but overall I get on quite well with her. I've had a short call or text to say they were nearby when I was on maternity leave and could they visit, which I said yes to even when it sometimes wasnt convenient. (cue me running around like Kim & Aggie on crack tidying manically and bleaching the loo when I had been about to take a nap) But I always got a text or a call - even from my own mum and siblings. So no, there is no projection there.

But, I have seen where a sons/brothers partner was disliked within a family and I know that ultimately, she holds the cards in a situation like this, no matter what people think of her. In an unmarried situation, the grandchilds next of kin is actually your brothers partners next of kin, unless guardianship is established. If the partner wants to end the relationship, she can literally get on a plane back home and while your brother has barely any rights over the child, the rest of the family have zero.

I've seen relationships like the above break down, and the mother go home to eastern europe and pay no heed to grandparents, because they never tried to get on with her when she was there. So why would she send her children to visit?

You didnt say that you disliked her, but it seems to come across in your posts. After all, you say that you all, collectively in the family think that your brothers behaviour towards the rest of you and the changes he has made in life is her fault.

I've seen how my partner go from never ringing his mother to calling her once a week once his child came along and somehow made him realise that he should call home more. I saw him turn down seeing his favorite band playing (and wasted the money I spent on tickets grrr) because he felt our son was too newborn for him to leave. When our son was 4 months old he turned down attending his best friends wedding too. That was all him in his new-dad cocoon, and I would hate for his siblings to blame me for those things despite me being the one trying to encourage him to go.

The standoff is going on because your brother feels he is not being listened to. By anyone. You say that you've never really got on with him so I dont think that you are the person to intervene here. Maybe you could ask someone that he does get on with to mediate?

GarIT

concerneddaughter wrote: »

My Mam does have to learn that this is what she needs to do and she is beginning to accept that. But does that really deserve cutting off contact with her? I think it's very harsh and a gross over reaction.

The mother of the child regularly gives out about us to my other brothers' girlfriends that we don't visit enough.

She didn't visit at Christmas because of the perceived lack of my Mother's visits and she didn't want the child to go with my brother either. He had a big fight with her in order to bring the child for an hour's visit.

I'm really shocked that some people think it is not ok for a grandmother to give her toddler grandchild a quick cuddle before leaving. Do we seriously need to ask permission before we touch her? I agree with that in the case of a newborn. But I would have hardly ever got to hold her as a baby if I hadn't asked. I only asked my brother a few times and when the baby was older.

Your brother has tried talking to your mother about the situation and she has repeatedly gone against what he was requested and once again has shown up without invitation. Cutting contact may be an extreme way of dealing with the situation but at this stage it would appear that all other avenues have been tried and cutting contact was the final option and necessary based on the information you have given.

There could be a lack of communication between your brother and his partner. Your brother may not want visitors where the child's mother does. The child's mother may want more visits but on their terms, it could be a case of the child's mother feeling that the grandmother doesn't visit enough but also when she does she insists on doing it on her terms which the family does not like.

Was the child's mother invited over for Christmas? Does she have/was she with family of her own on the day? I can only imagine that for a mother of a small child even being away from your child on Christmas day for a couple of hours would be emotionally tough, I can understand her not wanting to part with the child on Christmas if that was what the father was looking for.

From what you would described the parents of the child are reluctant to allow you and your mother hold or cuddle the child. If this is the case and it is not usual for you to hold or cuddle the child both you and your mother most definitely must ask every time, it is not your or your mothers right to hold the child it is something you are allowed do if the parents want to allow it, so if it is not the norm you should be asking. None of us other than yourself know the full situation here but it is quite possible that there are cultural differences here that your mother is ignoring/disrespecting, so you should be trying to say on the safe side with that in mind.

I think the best thing to do in this situation is to help your mother understand that everything needs to be done on the child's parents terms or not at all. The child's grandmother has no say in these terms and must just accept them and not fight against them. Possibly try getting her to call or text and apologise for ignoring his wishes, confirm that from now on she will do things as she was asked to and say she misses the her son and the child and ask to arrange a visit.

If you are looking to be PC about it as some posters have mentioned, given that your brother and the child's mother are living together and have a child together you should refer to the child's mother as "My brother's partner" rather than "the girlfriend" calling her his girlfriend shows somewhat of a lack of respect for their relationship.

strandroad

concerneddaughter wrote: »

In regards to your second post Neyite, wow! I think maybe you have had harsh treatment from your own inlaws and are projecting that onto this situation? Because no where in my post did I say I don't consider my brother's girlfriend family.

From the way you describe your brother's partner you come across as if you dislike her deeply. The way you immediately dismiss their communication as "excuses" is very telling too. You just don't seem to have much respect for them at all.
If we could hear their side of the story I'd expect it to be about much more than just your mother not texting ahead.

Pawwed Rig

concerneddaughter wrote: »

People are judging this situation based on just what I've written but like Pawed Rig said, there is a lot more going on besides. The mother of the child regularly gives out about us to my other brothers' girlfriends that we don't visit enough. She didn't visit at Christmas because of the perceived lack of my Mother's visits and she didn't want the child to go with my brother either. He had a big fight with her in order to bring the child for an hour's visit.

Well that's it really. People here can only give advice based on the information that you post. Everything else is an unknown. We are only hearing the 'truth' from your viewpoint. The old adage of every story having three sides, your side, my side and the truth rings true in this forum more than any other so any advice should be received in that context.

It seems that your mother needs to sort out her relationship with your brothers girlfriend and possibly on the girlfriend's terms. Noone else should get involved (imho). This may require your mother to swallow her pride for the greater good of having regular access to her grandson. These issues can be overcome but it will require some work

Ande1975

concerneddaughter wrote: »

It's relevant because Romanian's attitudes to family is different to ours. They are a lot more involved. Ande1975 was right, the girlfriends Mother's role is completely different. She has lived with them for roughly half the childs life and acts like a second Mother. My Mam is in her late 60's
QUOTE]

My sister lives abroad and has two kids. She expects her husband to spend two weeks back in Ireland with our parents but yet she is indignant when her MIL shows up. Actually my sister was quite rude to her in laws at one point and I was disgusted with her.
My mother actually gave out to her and told my sister how lucky she was to have a MIL who wanted to help out and its great with her kids.
OP, I think its such a shame that your brother is treating your mum so differently to his MIL. It happens unfortunately, especially when men like him meet difficult women. I've brothers in the same situation and you would just love to tell them both to grow a pair.
The OP has every right to be annoyed with the girlfriend. Believe me there is nothing worse than seeing your parents hurt by things like this.

Flippyfloppy

Ande1975 wrote: »

concerneddaughter wrote: »

It's relevant because Romanian's attitudes to family is different to ours. They are a lot more involved. Ande1975 was right, the girlfriends Mother's role is completely different. She has lived with them for roughly half the childs life and acts like a second Mother. My Mam is in her late 60's
QUOTE]

My sister lives abroad and has two kids. She expects her husband to spend two weeks back in Ireland with our parents but yet she is indignant when her MIL shows up. Actually my sister was quite rude to her in laws at one point and I was disgusted with her.
My mother actually gave out to her and told my sister how lucky she was to have a MIL who wanted to help out and its great with her kids.
OP, I think its such a shame that your brother is treating your mum so differently to his MIL. It happens unfortunately, especially when men like him meet difficult women. I've brothers in the same situation and you would just love to tell them both to grow a pair.
The OP has every right to be annoyed with the girlfriend. Believe me there is nothing worse than seeing your parents hurt by things like this.

Why is the grandma being hurt though? She was simply asked to call ahead and refused to. That's what got her here. It's not rocket science. Can't teach an old dog new tricks and all but come on!!

Ande1975

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

Ande1975 wrote: »

Why is the grandma being hurt though? She was simply asked to call ahead and refused to. That's what got her here. It's not rocket science. Can't teach an old dog new tricks and all but come on!!

Are you serious? Have you not read the thread?
The Grandmother was told to call ahead - she DID call ahead and was told they were unavailable - many times.
Cue - I don't want you around.
The GM wants to see her grandchild which is perfectly natural.
The GM knows that the other granny has been living with them for 9 months of the babys life?
What part of any of this is hard to not take personal. Stop blaming the granny and look at the fact that she is being treated like cr*p by her son.

Calhoun

Ande1975 wrote: »

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

Are you serious? Have you not read the thread?
The Grandmother was told to call ahead - she DID call ahead and was told they were unavailable - many times.
Cue - I don't want you around.
The GM wants to see her grandchild which is perfectly natural.
The GM knows that the other granny has been living with them for 9 months of the babys life?
What part of any of this is hard to not take personal. Stop blaming the granny and look at the fact that she is being treated like cr*p by her son.

There has to be a why in all of this, the son cant just want her around for no reason and i believe the attitude of family don't call ahead probably says it all.

The other GM living with them is completely different situation and can't really be used by the OP as an argument.

Flippyfloppy

Ande1975 wrote: »

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

Are you serious? Have you not read the thread?
The Grandmother was told to call ahead - she DID call ahead and was told they were unavailable - many times.
Cue - I don't want you around.
The GM wants to see her grandchild which is perfectly natural.
The GM knows that the other granny has been living with them for 9 months of the babys life?
What part of any of this is hard to not take personal. Stop blaming the granny and look at the fact that she is being treated like cr*p by her son.

What we don't know is how the grandmother and son communicate. Maybe OP can clarify. OP what happened on those occasions where the grandma offered to call and was told they were unavailable?

Ande1975

Calhoun wrote: »

Ande1975 wrote: »

There has to be a why in all of this, the son cant just want her around for no reason and i believe the attitude of family don't call ahead probably says it all.

The other GM living with them is completely different situation and can't really be used by the OP as an argument.

I agree there has to be a deeper reason or something residual that is forcing the son to treat his mother this way but I completely disagree with you that the other granny living with them cannot be used as an arguement. It absolutely can. Why does the son's mother lose out in favour of the daughter's mother?
Unless the OP's mum is a complete pain the backside, domineering, criticised or whatever, unless the OP can clarify that then I think the blame is firmly with the OP's brother and girlfriend.
Even so no one is perfect and I'm sure the girlfriend's mother isn't exactly a saint either.

Calhoun

Your forgetting that the brother and girlfriend are adults, they have made this decision and they had their reasons to do so. Throwing this at them now like a spoiled child is just going to make the situation worse, "she got her 9 months so where are mine".

What is needed is a step back, if there are areas the OP's mother can change to make the situation better then i would go for it. However if this is all about the son being an ass i would cut my losses and move on but i somehow doubt its the latter from the tone of the original post.

tinkerbell

OP, you and your mother were WAY out of line. This is all of both of your doing and your attitude stinks - it's obvious from your posts that you dislike the girl from the way you describe the situation. You do not just call over unannounced if you have been repeatedly asked to call ahead and arrange an appropriate time in advance. The way you dismiss them being unavailable as "excuses" is rude - they may have had perfectly valid reasons for not being able for a visit! And it is a lot easier for your mother to visit them rather than them visit you with a toddler in tow. Stop bitching and moaning about it and instead apologise to both your brother and his partner and say you'd love to visit and ask them when is suitable.

And yes you were extremely disrespectful asking to hold the baby when the child was a new baby - how rude. Many parents don't like the idea of passing their child around like pass the parcel as it unsettles the baby but clearly you were just thinking of yourself and being selfish. You're acting like you have some god given right to hold this child, you have no right.

LegacyUser

Thanks for the responses. Some of them have been balanced and considered while others have been way off the mark. I've no interest in getting into an argument with anyone cos I hate it even though I'm anonymous. And there's no way for people to truly understand the situation without me divulging a lot more information which I don't want to do. I'll take from it overall that I wont make any attempt to fix the situation. It is between my Mam and my brother and his girlfriend. I'll call over to see my niece when I can and keep the visit short, with notice of course! Maybe when she gets older we'll get to spend more time together. Hopefully.

December2012

concerneddaughter wrote: »

Maybe when she gets older we'll get to spend more time together. Hopefully.

I hope you do get a good relationship with her. But remember this - you're protective over your mother and a slight you perceive her to have suffered. Your niece could be the same for her mother too.

Rubberchikken

These Are the type of people who if i was related to them would drive me insane.
Your brother wants his mother to call a lot but he wants her to ring first.
They are whinging about holding a baby, disturbing a nap etc.

This is his mother, the childs grandmother.

Why people make life so hard for themselves i'll never understand.
You dont get on with your brother. You sound like you're not gone on his girlfriend.
You are all really setting some example for a child.

My advice, all of you cop on and grow up.

Chattastrophe!

Rubberchikken wrote: »

These Are the type of people who if i was related to them would drive me insane.
Your brother wants his mother to call a lot but he wants her to ring first.
They are whinging about holding a baby, disturbing a nap etc.

This is his mother, the childs grandmother.

Why people make life so hard for themselves i'll never understand.
You dont get on with your brother. You sound like you're not gone on his girlfriend.
You are all really setting some example for a child.

My advice, all of you cop on and grow up.

I have a very strong close relationship with my parents.

I'd still have a very serious problem with them turning up unannounced. Ever. I love them to bits, I love for them to spend time with their grandchild, but notice is essential. Apart from anything else, It's only fair on my boyfriend, I.e. the kids father. I'd expect the same in return, its his house as much as it is mine!

Tokyo

Rubberchikken - as comes up here time and time again, there are ways of getting your point across without being insulting about it. If you can't post maturely and constructively in future, please consider not posting as responses like yours regularly gain an infraction or ban.

Regards,
Mike