Irish Water Discussion {MERGE}

Froggy7

Hello all, we are a small group of independent residents who are currently protesting against the installation of the water meters, all for various reasons that we won’t go into for the moment. Here are our questions, which we are also sending to Irish Water, Deputies in the Dail and the Gardai Siochana. It would be great if any of you with a bit of legal knowledge could help us with some answers, where possible:


1. What article of law defines us, residents, as being in a legally binding contract with Irish Water?
2. What does constitute an unlawful obstruction of work in the conduct of our protests? In what measure are we within our right to demonstrate/protest in front of our homes?
3. Is Irish Water planning on charging us for the installation of the smart meters? If so, how much? Does this include the price of the meter itself? If not, how much is Irish Water planning to charge for the smart-meter itself?
4. What is Irish Water’s policy as regards people who have stopped or delayed the installation of smart meters? Is Irish Water looking at imposing fines or financial penalties on these and if so, how much and on what grounds?
5. Is it illegal to remove the smart meter from our homes ourselves?
6. Is it our right to request the removal of the smart-meter if we genuinely believe that it constitutes a health threat to the people in our homes?
7. Can Irish Water officially guarantee the safety of the smart-meters? If not, has there been provision made for an alternative metering system?


Please state article number and wording in all answers relative to law.

Thank you very much for your help!

Pro Hoc Vice

Froggy7 wrote: »

Hello all, we are a small group of independent residents who are currently protesting against the installation of the water meters, all for various reasons that we won’t go into for the moment. Here are our questions, which we are also sending to Irish Water, Deputies in the Dail and the Gardai Siochana. It would be great if any of you with a bit of legal knowledge could help us with some answers, where possible:


1. What article of law defines us, residents, as being in a legally binding contract with Irish Water?
2. What does constitute an unlawful obstruction of work in the conduct of our protests? In what measure are we within our right to demonstrate/protest in front of our homes?
3. Is Irish Water planning on charging us for the installation of the smart meters? If so, how much? Does this include the price of the meter itself? If not, how much is Irish Water planning to charge for the smart-meter itself?
4. What is Irish Water’s policy as regards people who have stopped or delayed the installation of smart meters? Is Irish Water looking at imposing fines or financial penalties on these and if so, how much and on what grounds?
5. Is it illegal to remove the smart meter from our homes ourselves?
6. Is it our right to request the removal of the smart-meter if we genuinely believe that it constitutes a health threat to the people in our homes?
7. Can Irish Water officially guarantee the safety of the smart-meters? If not, has there been provision made for an alternative metering system?


Please state article number and wording in all answers relative to law.

Thank you very much for your help!

Engage a professional who would gladly tell ye all you want to know. Also a expert on water meters would be able to provide any information on them. The giving of advice is not allowed on site. As your questions are so fact specific any answer would have to be advice.

Wile E. Coyote

On point 6 and 7, what makes you think the meters aren't safe or that they pose a risk to you or your family?

bumper234

On point 5 i believe the meters will not be on your property but on the public pavement so removing them could be criminal damage or even theft.

Little CuChulainn

Froggy7 wrote: »

1. What article of law defines us, residents, as being in a legally binding contract with Irish Water?

This sounds like nonsense. Why would the law define you as being in a contract?

Froggy7 wrote: »

2. What does constitute an unlawful obstruction of work in the conduct of our protests? In what measure are we within our right to demonstrate/protest in front of our homes?

Obstructing the flow of traffic, vehicular or pedestrian, in a public place is an offence. There are some other laws that may apply depending on the nature of the protest.

Froggy7 wrote: »

3. Is Irish Water planning on charging us for the installation of the smart meters? If so, how much? Does this include the price of the meter itself? If not, how much is Irish Water planning to charge for the smart-meter itself?

I don't think there has been any official word on this.

Froggy7 wrote: »

4. What is Irish Water’s policy as regards people who have stopped or delayed the installation of smart meters? Is Irish Water looking at imposing fines or financial penalties on these and if so, how much and on what grounds?

They will be billed on the basis of estimated usage. The likely method will be to take the total usage for an area, subtract the metered usage and divide the remainder among the unmetered users. Probably using the number of householders as a weighting.

Froggy7 wrote: »

5. Is it illegal to remove the smart meter from our homes ourselves?

It won't be in your home and it is not your property. It will likely constitute criminal damage and theft.

Froggy7 wrote: »

6. Is it our right to request the removal of the smart-meter if we genuinely believe that it constitutes a health threat to the people in our homes?

On what basis?

Froggy7 wrote: »

7. Can Irish Water officially guarantee the safety of the smart-meters? If not, has there been provision made for an alternative metering system?

Again, on what basis would it be unsafe?

Froggy7 wrote: »

Please state article number and wording in all answers relative to law.

Please feel free to hire a solicitor to do your leg work.

trellheim

IANAL and cannot advise you on the legality or otherwise of any act.

With that said please read in full the Water Services Act 2007 and Water Services Act 2013.;

Bepolite

In relation to point 1. Do you propose to disconnect the mains supply and source your water from somewhere else? Do you intend to disconnect yourself from the main sewer and use septic tanks?

TeaBagMania

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

On point 6 and 7, what makes you think the meters aren't safe or that they pose a risk to you or your family?

If lead based solder is used during manufacture or installation it could pose a risk.

the_syco

TeaBagMania wrote: »

If lead based solder is used during manufacture or installation it could pose a risk.

If you tamper with the device, you'll have to then prove that you didn't tamper with the device.

Froggy7

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

On point 6 and 7, what makes you think the meters aren't safe or that they pose a risk to you or your family?

There's a lot of claims made about the smart-meters safety, from sources ranging from Health professionals right down to the tin-foil brigade. None of us are experts, but it's hard not to get suspicious and, for our peace of mind, if nothing else, it would be nice to get a solid guarantee directly from the people who are providing these. We live in an area were the water is not drinkable. Personally, I have lost 5 members of my family to cancer and 3 neighbours. I'm not willing to expose my family to more risk without getting some reassurance.

Froggy7

bumper234 wrote: »

On point 5 i believe the meters will not be on your property but on the public pavement so removing them could be criminal damage or even theft.

Thank you, we do not have any intention to break the law in any way. We do need clarification though if the meters are placed on our property without previous agreement.

efb

I want proof posting on boards doesn't give you cancer!!!

WE ARE ALL AT RISK!!!!

Froggy7

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

This sounds like nonsense. Why would the law define you as being in a contract?

Thanks for taking the time to reply in detail, it is our understanding that Irish Water is positionning us as customers and selling us a service/product. This, surely, would mean that the whole arrangement would fall under some sort of contract law? Again, none of us are experts, we are just trying to find out a bit more about what looks to us like a complex situation!

Obstructing the flow of traffic, vehicular or pedestrian, in a public place is an offence. There are some other laws that may apply depending on the nature of the protest.

Thanks, we have not obstructed any traffic in our protest and are just concerned that we may be breaking the law if we stand on our shores (on the footpath). Even if there's still plenty of space for people to walk on the path in front of us, does it still constitute an obstruction?

They will be billed on the basis of estimated usage. The likely method will be to take the total usage for an area, subtract the metered usage and divide the remainder among the unmetered users. Probably using the number of householders as a weighting.

We are unhappy about the lack of information given to us about this. Every other service provider in the country has very clear price info given to customers before they even go near them to install meters.

It won't be in your home and it is not your property. It will likely constitute criminal damage and theft.

Again, we have no intention on breaking the law in any way. If we remove a meter, it would have to have been installed on our property and the idea would be to return it. But none of us have the intention of doing that until we are pretty clear about the implications.

On what basis?
Again, on what basis would it be unsafe?

Please see my reply to Wile. E. Coyote.

Please feel free to hire a solicitor to do your leg work.
It might have to come to this and we will gladly be directed to relevant organisations or experts. Wouldn't it have to be a lawyer rather than a solicitor? Again, we are only a bunch of residents -labourers, single mums, free-lance facilitators- and we haven't got much knowledge or experience dealing with this type of issues! (Bottom of the food chain, wha'!?)

Froggy7

trellheim wrote: »

IANAL and cannot advise you on the legality or otherwise of any act.

With that said please read in full the Water Services Act 2007 and Water Services Act 2013.;

Thanks, that's a start! We just really don't know were to turn and are trying everywhere we can.

Froggy7

Bepolite wrote: »

In relation to point 1. Do you propose to disconnect the mains supply and source your water from somewhere else? Do you intend to disconnect yourself from the main sewer and use septic tanks?

We are not proposing anything as we actually don't have all the answers to make an informed decision. We are just looking to obtain information about our rights and reassurance about a situation that is putting us under a lot of pressure. I hope this answers your question.

godtabh

Froggy7 wrote: »

We are not proposing anything as we actually don't have all the answers to make an informed decision. We are just looking to obtain information about our rights and reassurance about a situation that is putting us under a lot of pressure. I hope this answers your question.

You don't have rights. Water metres will be installed. You will be charged for your water

Froggy7

godtabh wrote: »

You don't have rights. Water metres will be installed. You will be charged for your water

We don't have rights???

Let's be clear: we do not mind paying for water. The issues are all connected to the questions outlined in the first post. When I buy a bag of sugar in a shop, I have a right to
1- be charged the normal price for the sugar (and not twice)
2- be given the sugar in a bag that won't break all over my driveway, or my kitchen floor
3- receive the amount of sugar I paid for
4- complain about the quality of the sugar
5- get my money back and more if there's something else than sugar in the bag which makes me sick

Irish Water is selling me a product. I am therefore a customer. Their words, not mine!

Froggy7

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

Engage a professional who would gladly tell ye all you want to know. Also a expert on water meters would be able to provide any information on them. The giving of advice is not allowed on site. As your questions are so fact specific any answer would have to be advice.

Thanks, we will gladly be directed to relevant organisations or experts. Again, we are only a bunch of residents -labourers, single mums, free-lance facilitators- and we haven't got much knowledge or experience dealing with this type of issues!

Pro Hoc Vice

Froggy7 wrote: »

Thanks, we will gladly be directed to relevant organisations or experts. Again, we are only a bunch of residents -labourers, single mums, free-lance facilitators- and we haven't got much knowledge or experience dealing with this type of issues!

Many residents associations up and down the country get together on various issues and instruct a local solicitor. Any good solicitor will have knowledge of good experts on a wide range of issues. Any local solicitor who has taken on say a planning case for residents should be a first port of call.

LeinsterDub

TeaBagMania wrote: »

If lead based solder is used during manufacture or installation it could pose a risk.

I'd be more worried about the lead pipes we are still using.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/health/grants-urged-to-remove-harmful-lead-water-pipes-218420.html

Froggy7

Froggy7 wrote: »

Thanks, we will gladly be directed to relevant organisations or experts. Again, we are only a bunch of residents -labourers, single mums, free-lance facilitators- and we haven't got much knowledge or experience dealing with this type of issues!

What is a free-lance facilitator as a matter of interest?

Froggy7

Deleted User wrote: »

What is a free-lance facilitator as a matter of interest?

In my case, it's workshop facilitator (Festivals, Visual Arts, Drama), but also in some cases Health & Safety Training, Team Building, conflict resolution, project management, etc. We are usually self-employed and call into companies, schools, organisations, etc.

Little CuChulainn

Froggy7 wrote: »

Thanks for taking the time to reply in detail, it is our understanding that Irish Water is positionning us as customers and selling us a service/product. This, surely, would mean that the whole arrangement would fall under some sort of contract law? Again, none of us are experts, we are just trying to find out a bit more about what looks to us like a complex situation!

I suppose you have to go back to the founding of ESB and Eircom. I wasn't around then but I presume that their were similar questions. The only difference is that the water network is already in place. You are not being forced into a contract. You are allowed to refuse to be supplied by Irish water and use a well as well as your own sewerage treatment facilities (within regulation). Basically you are already in a contract with the government and they are transferring the contract to Irish Water. This is perfectly legitimate and often happens in buyouts.

Froggy7 wrote: »

Thanks, we have not obstructed any traffic in our protest and are just concerned that we may be breaking the law if we stand on our shores (on the footpath). Even if there's still plenty of space for people to walk on the path in front of us, does it still constitute an obstruction?

All comes down to the circumstances really, There are other offences under the public order act that may apply. For example, if one of your group gets out of hand you may all be directed to leave under section 8 of the public order act.

Froggy7 wrote: »

We are unhappy about the lack of information given to us about this. Every other service provider in the country has very clear price info given to customers before they even go near them to install meters.

As far as I know, the prices are to be decided by a regulator and not Irish Water. This is likely because they hold the monopoly and as we've seen from Eircom, ESB and Bord Gais, when a company controls the network and is a supplier they cannot be trusted to set fair prices.

Froggy7 wrote: »

Again, we have no intention on breaking the law in any way. If we remove a meter, it would have to have been installed on our property and the idea would be to return it. But none of us have the intention of doing that until we are pretty clear about the implications.

For a similar issue look at the are of clamping. There is no case law on it at the moment. Is it illegal to clamp a car? Is it illegal to cut off a clamp? Nobody knows and nobody will until it goes to court.

Froggy7 wrote: »

Please see my reply to Wile. E. Coyote.

As I said, you can work on the basis of an estimated bill instead. But if you're going to go digging up roads and removing water meters you'd want to have more than a hunch on wether there was any danger.

Froggy7 wrote: »

It might have to come to this and we will gladly be directed to relevant organisations or experts. Wouldn't it have to be a lawyer rather than a solicitor? Again, we are only a bunch of residents -labourers, single mums, free-lance facilitators- and we haven't got much knowledge or experience dealing with this type of issues! (Bottom of the food chain, wha'!?)

There are no lawyers in Ireland. You deal with a solicitor and if necessary they retain a barrister for the court room.

Personally I think opposing the installations is pointless. A proper controlled water network is desperately needed in this country. If it's run right we should see reduced prices and increased quality as the network is improved. People would be better off diverting their energy making sure Irish Water is kept on their toes and operating in the best interests of all of us.

Froggy7

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Personally I think opposing the installations is pointless. A proper controlled water network is desperately needed in this country. If it's run right we should see reduced prices and increased quality as the network is improved. People would be better off diverting their energy making sure Irish Water is kept on their toes and operating in the best interests of all of us.

Thanks very much, I will bring your comments to the rest of the neighbours. Personally, I totally agree with your last point; when I started protesting, I knew that, ultimately, the meter would have to go in at some stage. But protesting is, IMO, a good start in keeping Irish Water on their toes, as you say! A pretty visible way of showing we're not happy with the way they are doing things so far. It's not very encouraging for the future!!

Little CuChulainn

Froggy7 wrote: »

Thanks very much, I will bring your comments to the rest of the neighbours. Personally, I totally agree with your last point; when I started protesting, I knew that, ultimately, the meter would have to go in at some stage. But protesting is, IMO, a good start in keeping Irish Water on their toes, as you say! A pretty visible way of showing we're not happy with the way they are doing things so far. It's not very encouraging for the future!!

Even if the meters don't go in you'll still get a bill. And while all the media focus is on the protests we are missing out on the stories about the ridiculous levels of consultations that are costing millions.

Froggy7

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Even if the meters don't go in you'll still get a bill. And while all the media focus is on the protests we are missing out on the stories about the ridiculous levels of consultations that are costing millions.

I find the media coverage of the protests very poor, actually. And biaised. The cost of consultations and corruption at the top is actually grievance number 1 with a majority of the protesters. Funny enough, you don't hear that reported in the media, they prefer to show angry joes, red in the face, shouting that they don't want to pay for water... really not helping!

Froggy7

A few answers from Irish Water on the phone this morning:

3. we are not being charged for the INSTALLATION of the water meters per se, only for the water usage.
4. No penalties or fines for people who stopped or delayed the installation of the meters. These will be charged an ESTIMATE bill based on the number of people in the house, size of the house, etc. If people refuse to pay that bill, then they will be charged and brought to court.

There is no clear plan from Irish Water at this stage as regards coming back to install meters where people have stopped them. They might do it at a later stage, or they might not.

bumper234

Froggy7 wrote: »

A few answers from Irish Water on the phone this morning:

3. we are not being charged for the INSTALLATION of the water meters per se, only for the water usage.
4. No penalties or fines for people who stopped or delayed the installation of the meters. These will be charged an ESTIMATE bill based on the number of people in the house, size of the house, etc. If people refuse to pay that bill, then they will be charged and brought to court.

There is no clear plan from Irish Water at this stage as regards coming back to install meters where people have stopped them. They might do it at a later stage, or they might not.

No might about it, They will estimate your bill on the upper scale and when you are sick of paying "estimated" bills you will be ringing them and asking them to install your meter.

mari2222

Hi
To contribute to the thinking around the issue, it may be useful to be aware that the provision of water is a measure introduced under Public Health/ Sanitary Services law. In 1962, local authorities were empowered to charge a "water rent"; the current water charges are a follow-on of this historic basis. To safeguard the public, local authorities/sanitary authorities could take steps to deliver clean water to houses/take away septic waste and so on.

Froggy7

Froggy7 wrote: »

A few answers from Irish Water on the phone this morning:

3. we are not being charged for the INSTALLATION of the water meters per se, only for the water usage.
4. No penalties or fines for people who stopped or delayed the installation of the meters. These will be charged an ESTIMATE bill based on the number of people in the house, size of the house, etc. If people refuse to pay that bill, then they will be charged and brought to court.

There is no clear plan from Irish Water at this stage as regards coming back to install meters where people have stopped them. They might do it at a later stage, or they might not.

As others have said they will absolutely come back when you insist upon it to reduce your water bill. They may well charge you for the pleasure too given.

TeaBagMania

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I'd be more worried about the lead pipes we are still using.
irishexaminer.com/ireland/health/grants-urged-to-remove-harmful-lead-water-pipes-218420

Yikes, grant or no grant those lead pipes would be ripped out of my house so fast it’d make your head spin.

With all the rain Ireland receives has anyone investigates a rain water catch system to subsidize state water?

Losty Dublin

TeaBagMania wrote: »

Yikes, grant or no grant those lead pipes would be ripped out of my house so fast it’d make your head spin.

With all the rain Ireland receives has anyone investigates a rain water catch system to subsidize state water?

Some council bring centres and garden centres sell such kits. They don't sanitise water so it's not fit for a lot, certainly not for human consumption.

mruser2014

Irish water contractors damaged the front of my car with concrete splashes and stones chipped my bumper and windscreen.

I was parked in one of our parking places in our estate and they drilled a hole next to my car. Other cars were damaged in a similar nature. We have complained and are awaiting a reply.

Just shows people need to be careful with the contractors. It's disgraceful.

Five Lamps

Froggy7 wrote: »

We don't have rights???

Let's be clear: we do not mind paying for water. The issues are all connected to the questions outlined in the first post. When I buy a bag of sugar in a shop, I have a right to
1- be charged the normal price for the sugar (and not twice)
2- be given the sugar in a bag that won't break all over my driveway, or my kitchen floor
3- receive the amount of sugar I paid for
4- complain about the quality of the sugar
5- get my money back and more if there's something else than sugar in the bag which makes me sick

Irish Water is selling me a product. I am therefore a customer. Their words, not mine!

I would have thought that IW would be doing all of the above - though in the case of 2. the plumbing in your driveway and kitchen floor is your problem not theirs.

Froggy7 wrote:

Every other service provider in the country has very clear price info given to customers before they even go near them to install meters.

This is factually incorrect. No other utility service provider i.e. gas or electric installs their own meters. You have to pay for a meter to be installed by either the ESB Networks or Bord Gais Networks - neither of whom sell either electricity or gas.

IW are unique in that they are both installing the meters and supplying their service. However, it's no different to other utilities - you have to have a meter in place to avail of the service.

Bepolite

Froggy7 wrote: »

We don't have rights???

3- receive the amount of sugar I paid for

Irish Water is selling me a product. I am therefore a customer. Their words, not mine!

Interesting analogy - safety concerns aside which I belive to be fully in the tin foil hat camp - isn't metering simply giving you what you pay for?

Froggy7

Five Lamps wrote: »

I would have thought that IW would be doing all of the above - though in the case of 2. the plumbing in your driveway and kitchen floor is your problem not theirs.

Obviously. But we're all aware at this stage of the state of the plumbing before it even gets there! This was just for the purpose of the sugar metaphor.

Five Lamps wrote: »

This is factually incorrect. No other utility service provider i.e. gas or electric installs their own meters. You have to pay for a meter to be installed by either the ESB Networks or Bord Gais Networks - neither of whom sell either electricity or gas.

What do they sell then? I need a lot more info, obviously. The facts remains the same: I pay for it at the end of the day! And in the case of electricity, I have the choice to change provider and question their prices. Same for Gas: I actually choose not to be with them and heat my house in a different ways.

Five Lamps wrote: »

IW are unique in that they are both installing the meters and supplying their service. However, it's no different to other utilities - you have to have a meter in place to avail of the service.

The whole monopoly thing with Irish Water does not sit right with me. And it IS different on many levels. One example here: http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/water-customers-have-no-access-to-watchdog-270242.html
It is different also in that I NEVER had bad electricity delivered to my home. However, I have NEVER been able to drink the water from my tap, even when I filter it... and God knows I'm not fussy!

Little CuChulainn

Froggy7 wrote: »

Obviously. But we're all aware at this stage of the state of the plumbing before it even gets there! This was just for the purpose of the sugar metaphor.




What do they sell then? I need a lot more info, obviously. The facts remains the same: I pay for it at the end of the day! And in the case of electricity, I have the choice to change provider and question their prices. Same for Gas: I actually choose not to be with them and heat my house in a different ways.



The whole monopoly thing with Irish Water does not sit right with me. And it IS different on many levels. One example here: http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/water-customers-have-no-access-to-watchdog-270242.html
It is different also in that I NEVER had bad electricity delivered to my home. However, I have NEVER been able to drink the water from my tap, even when I filter it... and God knows I'm not fussy!

Do you think that people had a choice on provider when ESB was established? Do you think they had a choice when Telecom Eireann was set up? Do you think they had perfect service? The fact is that when you are setting up a new national network for something you don't have a choice.

GerardKeating

Froggy7 wrote: »

Hello all, we are a small group of independent residents who are currently protesting against the installation of the water meters, all for various reasons that we won’t go into for the moment. Here are our questions, which we are also sending to Irish Water, Deputies in the Dail and the Gardai Siochana. It would be great if any of you with a bit of legal knowledge could help us with some answers, where possible:


1. What article of law defines us, residents, as being in a legally binding contract with Irish Water?
2. What does constitute an unlawful obstruction of work in the conduct of our protests? In what measure are we within our right to demonstrate/protest in front of our homes?
3. Is Irish Water planning on charging us for the installation of the smart meters? If so, how much? Does this include the price of the meter itself? If not, how much is Irish Water planning to charge for the smart-meter itself?
4. What is Irish Water’s policy as regards people who have stopped or delayed the installation of smart meters? Is Irish Water looking at imposing fines or financial penalties on these and if so, how much and on what grounds?
5. Is it illegal to remove the smart meter from our homes ourselves?
6. Is it our right to request the removal of the smart-meter if we genuinely believe that it constitutes a health threat to the people in our homes?
7. Can Irish Water officially guarantee the safety of the smart-meters? If not, has there been provision made for an alternative metering system?


Please state article number and wording in all answers relative to law.

Thank you very much for your help!

Unless you do not currently have a water supply, you are already have a contact with Irish Water.

Froggy7

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Do you think that people had a choice on provider when ESB was established? Do you think they had a choice when Telecom Eireann was set up? Do you think they had perfect service? The fact is that when you are setting up a new national network for something you don't have a choice.

The simple answer to all your questions is I don't know. Which is why I am coming onto this forum and elsewhere asking every organisation/expert/information body I can find.

If you are, indeed, right and we have no choice, then the next question is do we have rights within that set-up? Then, if the answer is no again, we will all need to think long and hard about the consequences of allowing this to happen.

When the Germans invaded France, the government went with it and collaborated; would you then say that French people had no choice and should have embraced the new regime? However, a few of them questioned the benefits of the Nazi regime and formed the resistance. Forgive this extreme parallel, but all I'm trying to say is it's not because the government decides something is good for a country that we should all bow our heads in quiet reverence. They make mistakes. Don't they? It is not only our choice and our right to hold them accountable and ask for answers, it is our moral duty to ourselves, our children and future generations in this country. If they are all above board and looking after our interests as they claim, surely it will become apparent very quickly?

Pro Hoc Vice

Froggy7 wrote: »

The simple answer to all your questions is I don't know. Which is why I am coming onto this forum and elsewhere asking every organisation/expert/information body I can find.

If you are, indeed, right and we have no choice, then the next question is do we have rights within that set-up? Then, if the answer is no again, we will all need to think long and hard about the consequences of allowing this to happen.

When the Germans invaded France, the government went with it and collaborated; would you then say that French people had no choice and should have embraced the new regime? However, a few of them questioned the benefits of the Nazi regime and formed the resistance. Forgive this extreme parallel, but all I'm trying to say is it's not because the government decides something is good for a country that we should all bow our heads in quiet reverence. They make mistakes. Don't they? It is not only our choice and our right to hold them accountable and ask for answers, it is our moral duty to ourselves, our children and future generations in this country. If they are all above board and looking after our interests as they claim, surely it will become apparent very quickly?

Weird example but anyway. The simple matter is many homes in ireland have always paid for water. The simple matter is water that is provided free to some homes costs the whole country 1.2 billion per year. That is thanks to the Jack Lynch government of 1977. It simple we as a country pay out more than we take in every year that can not go on all homes will have to pay for water or all people will have to pay more tax it's really that simple.

In relation to the throwing around words like rights there is no right to free treated pumped water. If you want to sink a well provide a pump and get clean water work away, if you want someone to reliever ya quilify product then pay.

slimjimmc

Froggy7 wrote: »

It is different also in that I NEVER had bad electricity delivered to my home.

Strangely enough you can get 'bad' electricity, my parents' supply had gradually weakened over time thanks to a failing transformer on the ESB pole. Caused all sorts of upset to appliances. ESB eventually repaired the problem but the parents still had to pay their energy bill.

Rubberchikken

injunction won to block water meter installation.
todays mail.
temp injunction, and a court case on June 23rd.

have grown so disillusioned, so i personally admire the man but don't see what can be achieved.

Pro Hoc Vice

Rubberchikken wrote: »

injunction won to block water meter installation.
todays mail.
temp injunction, and a court case on June 23rd.

have grown so disillusioned, so i personally admire the man but don't see what can be achieved.

It's an injunction got without the other side present. The test is low, and an undertaking must be given to pay damages. If this matter is fought all the way and lost by the plaintiff he is facing a very very large cost order he may get the benigit of no cost order as the matter is one of public importance.

Losty Dublin

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

It's an injunction got without the other side present. The test is low, and an undertaking must be given to pay damages. If this matter is fought all the way and lost by the plaintiff he is facing a very very large cost order he may get the benigit of no cost order as the matter is one of public importance.

Well, what wud ya know; it's Ben's BFF, Tony Rochford.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/man-gets-injunctions-to-stop-irish-water-from-installing-meter-271284.html

I also notice that... "Yesterday, Mr Rochford was fined €60 at Trim District Court after he pleaded guilty to obstructing the road near his home on 27 May."

rameire

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Well, what wud ya know; it's Ben's BFF, Tony Rochford.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/man-gets-injunctions-to-stop-irish-water-from-installing-meter-271284.html

I also notice that... "Yesterday, Mr Rochford was fined €60 at Trim District Court after he pleaded guilty to obstructing the road near his home on 27 May."

They should screw the lot of these by cutting the water to their houses and placing a hand pump in on the path. And if they want water they need to pump it by hand into buckets.

ligertigon

Are you allowed to install your own meter? via an approved plumber of course

brian_t

ligertigon wrote: »

Are you allowed to install your own meter? via an approved plumber of course

I would assume you can install what you want as long as it is on your side of Irish Waters meter.

ligertigon

I meant instead of them installing one, you install your own, the same as theirs, let them code it etc.
But it remains your property.

No Pants

Froggy7 wrote: »

3. we are not being charged for the INSTALLATION of the water meters per se, only for the water usage.

That's a slightly disingenuous statement from them. You will be paying for the meter and the installation. It'll be included in the cost of the water. The difference being, you will now have no idea how much they're charging you for it or the rate of interest that they've stuck on top.

GerardKeating

ligertigon wrote: »

I meant instead of them installing one, you install your own, the same as theirs, let them code it etc.
But it remains your property.

To what advantage?

The ESB insist on you using their meter, same basic concept.

Losty Dublin

GerardKeating wrote: »

To what advantage?

The ESB insist on you using their meter, same basic concept.

And rightly so.

The whole point of the utility company installing their meter is that they know that it works as per their requirements; they are responsible for it's safe operation, servicing and also for ensuring that it's calibration is legit and in order. Were we allowed to put in our own meter, the utility company loses control over any of the safety elements plus you as a customer assume these mantles.