Edinburgh's tram finally opens

Muahahaha

Sounds like they had a nightmare in constructing it, £375m over budget, 3 years late and with the initially proposed network scaled back they ended up with one line from the airport to city centre, 15 stops, approx 35 minute journey time end to end. By the time interest payments are paid for they estimate the total cost of the project to be circa £1bn, far above the initial £375m costing. Even the politicians are calling it a shambles which is at least refreshing compared to listening to spin.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jun/01/edinburgh-tram-system-opens

L1011

When I was last there in 2008 the entire city centre was in bits for the construction and they were trumpeting how "similar" to the Luas it was on the hoardings. I hope the RPA demanded they stop claiming that!

AlekSmart

MYOB wrote: »

When I was last there in 2008 the entire city centre was in bits for the construction and they were trumpeting how "similar" to the Luas it was on the hoardings. I hope the RPA demanded they stop claiming that!

I don't think the RPA will be doing too much demanding,particularly as the much vaunted "Private Sector Involvement" in Edinburgh's Tram system rather failed to live up to expectations.

The very fact that Edinburgh has fully integrated it's Tram and Bus systems in one Publicly Owned "Transport for Edinburgh" brand speaks volumes about the canny Scot's being well able to play to their strengths.

We'd be mortified that the EU would be annoyed at us for abusing a "Dominant Position"..even if it was reflecting commonsense !

AngryLips

There's also already talk of replacing the shelters along the route because of complaints they don't protect against the elements. I've seen them and they definitely do not. I guess The original luas was also over budget and missing the critical central connection but it sounds like it doesn't compare to this at all. I wonder if BXD will come with cost overruns

ArmaniJeanss

I dislike the price gouging of airport users, the standard fare is £1.50 but for journeys which start or end at the airport its £5.
By no means the only city that does this but 3x is an unusually large surcharge. And conversely plenty of cities treat their airport as just another regular stop on the system with no such surcharge.
I wonder would there have such an extra charge for Metro Norths airport stop?

Anyway good luck to Edinburgh, currently they are going through the phase where everyone who wants to criticise and nitpick is getting the major hearing (lol at 'calls to replace the shelters'), hopefully over the next few months the voices of positivity take over and then they can start planning an expansion program.

Banjoxed

The Edinburgh trams have been able to launch in spite of the campaign against them, but I wonder was there ever such a concerted effort to sink them as there was in Dublin?

Here's a paper from two Trinity students in 1999 that is a good example of the genre.

In the future, the Anti Luas Campaign will be seen to be as risible and as pointless as the Anti Jazz Campaign of the 1930s.

Kermit.de.frog

Muahahaha wrote: »

total cost of the project to be circa £1bn

For a 15 stop tram line?:eek:


How many stops does the Luas have and how much did it cost in equivalent sterling?

n97 mini

You could find that out very easily if you googled.

The cost of building the 25km of both lines was €770m. This was three times original predictions that the system would cost €254m.

Banjoxed

n97 mini wrote: »

You could find that out very easily if you googled.

The cost of building the 25km of both lines was €770m. This was three times original predictions that the system would cost €254m.

Yes. Lots of goldplating after the original design such as the duplication of facilities on the Green line after the central section was removed due to political pressure, extra boundary walls insisted on by groups of residents, and according to a structural engineer of my acquaintance, enough concrete poured on the street running sections to run the Dublin Cork train down the line.

Kerching!

AngryLips

n97 mini wrote: »

The cost of building the 25km of both lines was €770m. This was three times original predictions that the system would cost €254m.

...compared to 8 times the estimated cost of Edinburgh trams (the original costing being for a line twice the length). At least the construction period of Luas was more or less as timetabled and did not last an extra three years. Those poor folk in Edinburgh, it must have driven them demented. Also, when I was there recently, a local observed that Edinburgh's renown bus services had deteriorated in quality of service since the start of construction.

Kermit.de.frog

n97 mini wrote: »

You could find that out very easily if you googled.

The cost of building the 25km of both lines was €770m. This was three times original predictions that the system would cost €254m.

According to wiki the Luas system is 33.6km's long and has 54 stations.

Muahahaha

Yeah the Edinburgh cost seems off the scale. Not only were other lines abandoned from the original plans (i.e. the city's residents were sold a pup) then it overruns by three years and costs multiples of what it should have. At the end of all the disruption and £1bn costs all they have is a single tram line with 15 stops. An important one no doubt, linking the airport to the city but at the same time they should have had another two lines on top of that. The £1bn cost certainly won't enamour anyone suggesting they go and build more of them, the over run will likely have scared off any future appetite for extensions. No doubt it will work well as Luas does but it seems to have come at a huge cost, even if it runs well one line is only of benefit to a section of the city's residents so the rest will just take the view that the whole thing was an utter waste of money and will be opposed to any suggestions of further lines, especially if their local taxes go up as a result.

markpb

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

According to wiki the Luas system is 33.6km's long and has 54 stations.

25km was the original Connolly - Tallaght and St Stephens Green to Sandyford build. 33.6 presumably includes the extensions to the Point, Saggart and Brides Glen.

dowlingm

Vancouver does the "charge more from the airport thing" too, on Canada Line.

Ste.phen

As does San Francisco - seems to be pretty popular as a charging option

LXFlyer

Madrid also has the airport surcharge on their metro.

Chris_5339762

All cities seem to gouge a bit too much... I'm going to Edinburgh in the summer and I'm half tempted to walk along the line to the second stop and pay my £1.50...

smellmepower

Return fare for the very frequent Airlink is £7.It has wifi, nice comfy seats with tables and plug sockets,plus they play bagpipe music when you get to the last stop at Waverley Bridge!

Muahahaha

dowlingm wrote: »

Vancouver does the "charge more from the airport thing" too, on Canada Line.

Ste.phen wrote: »

As does San Francisco - seems to be pretty popular as a charging option

lxflyer wrote: »

Madrid also has the airport surcharge on their metro.

I hate that about airports in general, they all seem to think that just because they are an international gateway that they have a god given right to gouge all who open their wallets inside them.

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

All cities seem to gouge a bit too much... I'm going to Edinburgh in the summer and I'm half tempted to walk along the line to the second stop and pay my £1.50...

That made me laugh because I've done it before but with a bus to save money when backpacking, Austria I think it was. Had to walk 5k, not sure if it was worth it in the end !

Anyone know are trains from Schipol to Amsterdam Central priced by distance or is there a premium for departing from the airport ?

salmocab

I presume that the airport gets the premium, is that so does anybody know?
Sydney airport is the same btw.

ArmaniJeanss

The distance from the second last stop (Ingliston P&R) to the airport looks to be around half a mile (prob a few hundred metres more to the terminal), so suspect this will become the cool way of avoiding the surcharge alright.

https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?saddr=Edinburgh+Airport,+Edinburgh&daddr=Ingliston+Park+and+Ride+%4055.938313,-3.360143&hl=en&ll=55.941173,-3.360014&spn=0.010058,0.027874&sll=55.940257,-3.359781&sspn=0.010059,0.027874&geocode=FcG9VQMdU7XM_yGb1bGSJQpTGSl9AeOTDsWHSDGb1bGSJQpTGQ%3BFQmNVQMdcbrM_w&oq=edinburgh+a&gl=uk&dirflg=w&mra=ltm&t=m&z=16

Losty Dublin

n97 mini wrote: »

. This was three times original predictions that the system would cost €254m.

This figure was around IR £254 million, which is about €310 million. This was a very loose figure included a line to Ballymun based on rather optimistic guesswork from inexperienced planners along with many changes to the initial proposal. It didn't take into account the cost of any of the many compulsory purchase orders required, civil engineering relating to the many roads and pavements affected by the line nor did it cover the huge costs incurred in locating and rerouting utilities along it's route so from that end of things, it was found to be far short of brief by the time CIE got to do some heavy duty hands on work

It also never anticipated the cost of other issues out of the control of CIE, DTA and the RPA which delayed things yet further and added to the costs.

• A planning tribunal for Luas was adjourned mid enquiry to allow for a general election in 1997. When a new government was formed, it reviewed the project yet again pending adaption or amendment of same.
• Minister O'Rourke then commissioned a report by Atkins to examine the viability of an underground city centre section. This was found to favour an overground connection over one underground but she and the FF minority government saw fit to go ahead with the section regardless. CIE had to abandon the initial granted order, which was by then granted and then submit 3 new applications. This put the line back 3 years as well as costing it valuable EU funding.
• The costs incurred in building the extension to Connolly and that in excavating the access ramp at Connolly and remodelling of the stations entrance.
• The extension to Sandyford from Ballaly.
• The cost of a second tram depot and additional rolling stock for the two isolated lines.

While there was a lot of interference which also grossly affected the end price and building inflation in Ireland was very high, the €254 million is one which was not accurate to begin with, even on it's own merits.

Aard

On the other hand Copenhagen Kastrup Station is just another stop on the line. In fact it's on both the metro and train lines.

But Copenhagen makes up for it by having a baroque zone system for the first time visitor to decipher.

Back to Edinburgh and I notice that the fine for not having a ticket is £10. Given the price of the airport ticket it nearly makes fare evasion attractive!

Losty Dublin

Losty Dublin wrote: »

This figure was around IR £254 million, which is about €310 million. This was a very loose figure included a line to Ballymun based on rather optimistic guesswork from inexperienced planners along with many changes to the initial proposal. It didn't take into account the cost of any of the many compulsory purchase orders required, civil engineering relating to the many roads and pavements affected by the line nor did it cover the huge costs incurred in locating and rerouting utilities along it's route so from that end of things, it was found to be far short of brief by the time CIE got to do some heavy duty hands on work

It also never anticipated the cost of other issues out of the control of CIE, DTA and the RPA which delayed things yet further and added to the costs.

• A planning tribunal for Luas was adjourned mid enquiry to allow for a general election in 1997. When a new government was formed, it reviewed the project yet again pending adaption or amendment of same.
• Minister O'Rourke then commissioned a report by Atkins to examine the viability of an underground city centre section. This was found to favour an overground connection over one underground but she and the FF minority government saw fit to go ahead with the section regardless. CIE had to abandon the initial granted order, which was by then granted and then submit 3 new applications. This put the line back 3 years as well as costing it valuable EU funding.
• The costs incurred in building the extension to Connolly and that in excavating the access ramp at Connolly and remodelling of the stations entrance.
• The extension to Sandyford from Ballaly.
• The cost of a second tram depot and additional rolling stock for the two isolated lines.

While there was a lot of interference which also grossly affected the end price and building inflation in Ireland was very high, the €254 million is one which was not accurate to begin with, even on it's own merits.

What did that figure include then?

Jamie2k9

salmocab wrote: »

I presume that the airport gets the premium, is that so does anybody know?
Sydney airport is the same btw.

Sydney airport is off the scale, there is airport surcharges and then there is Sydney charges.

Just on the construction costs going over etc, the costs included approx 15 out of 27 trams which are not expected to be used at one time and it included the rails for the whole project which have being purchased already before it was cancelled.

Return fare for the very frequent Airlink is £7.It has wifi, nice comfy seats with tables and plug sockets,plus they play bagpipe music when you get to the last stop at Waverley Bridge!

The trams are getting free wifi to however as the bus is slightly faster I can't see £5 fare lasting for a long time. They should really cap it at £3 to gauge demand before going as high as possible.

ArmaniJeanss

Malaga and Heathrow* would be another two airports where there is no surcharge, its just another station on the system.

* if you take the standard Piccadily line tube as opposed to the Heathrow Express.

Dr.MickKiller

You can get the 35 bus from Edinburgh airport to the city centre for the standard £1.50 fare. It can take a while though, depending on the time of day.

Chris_5339762

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

* if you take the standard Piccadily line tube as opposed to the Heathrow Express.

Done it once, never again. Absolutely miserable experience. Don't use the Heathrow Express, use the Heathrow Connect. Same route, just a few intermediate stations.

AndrewJD

Aard wrote: »

Back to Edinburgh and I notice that the fine for not having a ticket is £10. Given the price of the airport ticket it nearly makes fare evasion attractive!

(According to the website anyway) they're promising stewards on every tram, checking tickets and such. Thus it's not like the LUAS where 95% of your journeys go unchecked, you'd almost certainly pay the standard fare if you tried to do it. If they hold true to their word.

L1011

Muahahaha wrote: »

I hate that about airports in general, they all seem to think that just because they are an international gateway that they have a god given right to gouge all who open their wallets inside them.

You do get the odd good egg in that regard - Portland International (PDX) outright bans their tenants from charging more than they do in off-airport locations. I suspect that ensures that some places simply won't bother doing business there but there's still plenty of facilities.

Compared to the CAD$40 I spent for a burger and chips, less than a European pint of Carlsberg and the effectively legally obligated tip in Montreal on the mid point of that journey it was quite a nice change!

Terrontress

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Malaga and Heathrow* would be another two airports where there is no surcharge, its just another station on the system.

* if you take the standard Piccadily line tube as opposed to the Heathrow Express.

Heathrow Express is ridiculously expensive. And they have been allowed to run it as a separate train company to the rest so you can't use any standard discounts or combine tickets. It is a massive gouge.

LXFlyer

Terrontress wrote: »

Heathrow Express is ridiculously expensive. And they have been allowed to run it as a separate train company to the rest so you can't use any standard discounts or combine tickets. It is a massive gouge.

No one is forced to use it though - you have other options:
*Piccadilly line
*Heathrow Connect
*Southwest Trains to Feltham and bus to Heathrow
*First Great Western to Hayes & Harlington and bus to Heathrow

Losty Dublin

Deleted User wrote: »

What did that figure include then?

Just Tallaght-Balally and a line to Ballymun which never saw the light of day. As I mentioned, it wasn't representative of Luas as we know it plus it was hard hit by a lot of delays and complications which added to it's overall cost.

Muahahaha

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Done it once, never again. Absolutely miserable experience. Don't use the Heathrow Express, use the Heathrow Connect. Same route, just a few intermediate stations.

What was so bad about it ? I went from Heathrow last week to Kings Cross in 50 minutes, all on a day pass for something like £7 I still took a number of Tube journeys after that so it worked out at great value for money, probably £1 for each journey I made.

Given the sheer size of London I think shuttling people from the airport to the city centre in 40-50 minutes is pretty decent and the price isn't that off the scale by London standards.

In comparison the Heathrow Express is £21 for a single and £34 for a return, it might get you there in 15 minutes but I think I'd orefer take an extra 30 minutes on the Tube and have an entire days travel paid for, all for seven quid. If I was wheeling a few suitcases too I might think different but for most people the Tube is by far the best way from Heathrow to the city

Irish Halo

Muahahaha wrote: »

anyone know are trains from Schipol to Amsterdam Central priced by distance or is there a premium for departing from the airport ?

No, a single from Centraal to Schiphol (16mins) is €4 and a single from Centraal to Haarlem (15mins) is also €4. I think there is a premium on the 300 bus (Haarlem to Bijmer Arena, via the Airport) but this is because it an Express service and is still only €3.72.

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Done it once, never again. Absolutely miserable experience. Don't use the Heathrow Express, use the Heathrow Connect. Same route, just a few intermediate stations.

Piccadilly line journey is fine to get from LHR and I have used it to get to LHR but you have to be careful and leave lots of time. The Express and Connect get you in to Paddington a pretty useless station for most of London, if it went to Kings Cross or even Victoria I'd be happy but Paddington? Feck that. Anyway I try to use LCY instead which is a normal stop on the DLR so no premium there (well except the general LCY premium but you can get cheap flights if you know you're going in advance).

For me Athens took the piss, a day ticket for ALL transport in the city is €4 unless you're off to the airport (which is on their metro so no special train) then a single to the airport is €8 or €12 for a return.

LXFlyer

I don't think Paddington is all that bad, you have the Bakerloo, District, Circle and Hammersmith & City lines there, all of which intersect with other tube lines.

monument

Somebody from the UK I follow on Twitter made a great point about the different attitude there is generally between public transport and motorway projects.

Public transport projects go wrong with over spends etc and we're told it's a sure sign that it never should have been tried and clearly never should be tried again.

Motorway projects go wrong and there's nothing to see here, it's all worth it anyway.

Chris_5339762

In the UK though its largely impossible to build anything new for cars at all. And that said, the amount of objection to High Speed 2 from the "no roads, everyone must use rail" is enormous.

devnull

Muahahaha wrote: »

In comparison the Heathrow Express is £21 for a single and £34 for a return, it might get you there in 15 minutes but I think I'd orefer take an extra 30 minutes on the Tube and have an entire days travel paid for, all for seven quid. If I was wheeling a few suitcases too I might think different but for most people the Tube is by far the best way from Heathrow to the city

Always Heathrow Connect for me, 25-30 minutes depending on the time of day and costs £10

Muahahaha

devnull wrote: »

Always Heathrow Connect for me, 25-30 minutes depending on the time of day and costs £10

'£10 is pretty decent but you've also got to factor in another onward ticket if you're not staying in Paddington, the total cost of getting to a destination could be £15+ whereas a day pass on the Tube will get you to most important places in London and the rest of your travel for the day is paid for too.

Sorry maybe I'm just Tube mad and won't consider any alternatives ! But for me I love riding on it from Heathrow getting closer to the city. I know when some punk girl with green hair hops on and starts chatting with her hipster mate that I'm finally in London again, the diversity of the city is seen at it's very best underground, I just love it !

Anyway back on topic, it was a good first weekend for Edinburghs tram, 40,000 tickets sold. Not bad for a line that is only 14km long
http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/40-000-ride-edinburgh-trams-in-first-weekend-1-3429969

markpb

Muahahaha wrote: »

Anyway back on topic, it was a good first weekend for Edinburghs tram, 40,000 tickets sold. Not bad for a line that is only 14km long
http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/40-000-ride-edinburgh-trams-in-first-weekend-1-3429969

Ticket sales in the first month or two are more or less irrelevant, people will try anything out while it's still in shiny new you state. I hope it works out well for them but we'll need to wait till September to tell for sure.

Muahahaha

markpb wrote: »

Ticket sales in the first month or two are more or less irrelevant, people will try anything out while it's still in shiny new you state. I hope it works out well for them but we'll need to wait till September to tell for sure.

True that, though it goes through the spine of the city, Princes Street and onwards to the airport so it's hard to see it not being successful. Lots of calls to extend it to Leith in that article too, that would really bump up passenger numbers, it just can't cost £50m a kilometre.

TheCoolWay

Irish Halo wrote: »

No, a single from Centraal to Schiphol (16mins) is €4 and a single from Centraal to Haarlem (15mins) is also €4. I think there is a premium on the 300 bus (Haarlem to Bijmer Arena, via the Airport) but this is because it an Express service and is still only €3.72.


Piccadilly line journey is fine to get from LHR and I have used it to get to LHR but you have to be careful and leave lots of time. The Express and Connect get you in to Paddington a pretty useless station for most of London, if it went to Kings Cross or even Victoria I'd be happy but Paddington? Feck that. Anyway I try to use LCY instead which is a normal stop on the DLR so no premium there (well except the general LCY premium but you can get cheap flights if you know you're going in advance).

For me Athens took the piss, a day ticket for ALL transport in the city is €4 unless you're off to the airport (which is on their metro so no special train) then a single to the airport is €8 or €12 for a return.

Who you get the cheap flights off? Be great to get into the city that cheap and quick

Irish Halo

TheCoolWay wrote: »

Who you get the cheap flights off? Be great to get into the city that cheap and quick

Depends on your definition of cheap but CityJet flights can be £12 (before taxes and charges which are MASSIVE for LCY) I have done DUB<->LCY for less the £90 all in (and similar AMS<->LCY) which gets you hold luggage and no need for a train ticket to get into London so works out similar to the cheap airlines (especially if you need hold luggage).

I think it's worth it for but I could be an airport snob cause I fly way too much

afatbollix

I got a flight DUB -> LCY for €36 (including bag) in the summer so there are cheap fares around.

AngryLips

I wonder if eventual extensions of their tram network will materialise as originally planned or if will end up looking completely different. If anyone remembers, Luas was meant to be one line from Tallaght to Ballaly. Now it is two lines that will eventually intersect and with a number of spurs each. Personally I'm not in favor of spurs to the network because it ultimately results in reduced frequencies.

D.L.R.

AngryLips wrote: »

I wonder if eventual extensions of their tram network will materialise as originally planned or if will end up looking completely different. If anyone remembers, Luas was meant to be one line from Tallaght to Ballaly. Now it is two lines that will eventually intersect and with a number of spurs each. Personally I'm not in favor of spurs to the network because it ultimately results in reduced frequencies.

Its fine once the core maintains high freq, in fact a line splitting out in the suburbs is probably best practise in terms of maximising your core capacity.

LXFlyer

AngryLips wrote: »

I wonder if eventual extensions of their tram network will materialise as originally planned or if will end up looking completely different. If anyone remembers, Luas was meant to be one line from Tallaght to Ballaly. Now it is two lines that will eventually intersect and with a number of spurs each. Personally I'm not in favor of spurs to the network because it ultimately results in reduced frequencies.

I don't think it's an issue.


You have a core service between Belgard and Busaras on the Red Line, and you will have a core service between Sandyford and Parnell on the Green Line, which means that the main part of each line has a full service.


Operating full services on the rest of the network where loadings are less would be a waste.

kdave2

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I dislike the price gouging of airport users, the standard fare is £1.50 but for journeys which start or end at the airport its £5.
By no means the only city that does this but 3x is an unusually large surcharge. And conversely plenty of cities treat their airport as just another regular stop on the system with no such surcharge.
I wonder would there have such an extra charge for Metro Norths airport stop?

Anyway good luck to Edinburgh, currently they are going through the phase where everyone who wants to criticise and nitpick is getting the major hearing (lol at 'calls to replace the shelters'), hopefully over the next few months the voices of positivity take over and then they can start planning an expansion program.

Its ridiculous defeats the purpose in my opinion it should have provided standard public transport to the airport at standard price...well hopefully they will plan expansions better than us they already have starting with a single line instead of two separate lines look at us now 10 years after introduction of the Luas digging up half the city for the Luas Cross

AngryLips

D.L.R. wrote: »

Its fine once the core maintains high freq, in fact a line splitting out in the suburbs is probably best practise in terms of maximising your core capacity.

It's not a common feature of most modern light rail networks that I know of and actually it reduces the utility of the part of the line where reduced frequencies are imposed.

smellmepower

Wasn't the LUAS free for the first week (or few days at least) when it launched?unsurprisingly Edinburgh didn't go the same way!