Carrying drivers licence while driving

gormdubhgorm

According to the citizen information website "You are required to carry your driving licence with you at all times when driving."

Does a photocopy of your drivers licence suffice?

As it is now a bit of a pain in the neck if you lose your licence and have to get it replaced. Particularly because of the new systems they brought in.

Fred Swanson

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gormdubhgorm

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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Fair point. What is the legislation which covers this?

lillen

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

According to the citizen information website "You are required to carry your driving licence with you at all times when driving."

Does a photocopy of your drivers licence suffice?

As it is now a bit of a pain in the neck if you lose your licence and have to get it replaced. Particularly because of the new systems they brought in.

Exactly where lies the issues if you were to lose your licence? It works all over Europe, why wouldn't it in Ireland?

gormdubhgorm

lillen wrote: »

Exactly where lies the issues if you were to lose your licence? It works all over Europe, why wouldn't it in Ireland?

Well before when you lost your licence you used to just get your garda form and sent off the photographs etc. Then you had your replacement licence.

Now you have to get your Garda form then go to new NDLS centres where you get your photo taken so you can get your replacement licence. Also, the cost of the drivers licence has dramatically increased since these new licences were created.

I just think that you should be permitted to keep a photocopy of your licence in the car then produce your real drivers licence after a certain period. In this way all the above hassle could be avoided.

endacl

Leave your license in your car.

Ankhyu

Surely if you leave it in the car it can't get lost too easily?

gormdubhgorm

Ankhyu wrote: »

Surely if you leave it in the car it can't get lost too easily?

haha that is what I do now. Used to leave it in my wallet. It got lost and got found again (minus the money).
Fortunately I did not purchase a new one.

But I would prefer if I didn't have to leave my real licence in the car as I think that the more sophisticated of the guriers would love to get their hands on a licence.

From the sound of it I am the only one who thought a photocopy of the licence in the car would be grand.

lillen

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Well before when you lost your licence you used to just get your garda form and sent off the photographs etc. Then you had your replacement licence.

Now you have to get your Garda form then go to new NDLS centres where you get your photo taken so you can get your replacement licence. Also, the cost of the drivers licence has dramatically increased since these new licences were created.

I just think that you should be permitted to keep a photocopy of your licence in the car then produce your real drivers licence after a certain period. In this way all the above hassle could be avoided.

You only have to go to a NDLS centre and apply for a replacement licence there, just as much hassle as going to a mailbox to send of some form.
Only downside I can see is that you have to adjust yourself in accordance to opening hours.

Regarding the cost, your drivers licence is a valuable document and should be treated as such. It's really not that hard keeping track of it.

When not in use, keep your licence where you keep your car keys. How often do you lose your car keys?

AlekSmart

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

According to the citizen information website "You are required to carry your driving licence with you at all times when driving."

Does a photocopy of your drivers licence suffice?

As it is now a bit of a pain in the neck if you lose your licence and have to get it replaced. Particularly because of the new systems they brought in.

My understanding is that only Vocational Drivers (Truck & Bus Driving for a living) are legally required to carry their licence on their person.

A car driver can elect to produce it at a specific Garda Station within a timeframe.

However,what CAN occur,is if a Driver is stopped at a Drugs & Alcohol checkpoint and is not in possession of their licence,then they automatically default to the far lower Learner Permit & Vocational Driver limits until they can produce their full licence...could well cause some heartstopping moments ?

gormdubhgorm

AlekSmart wrote: »

My understanding is that only Vocational Drivers (Truck & Bus Driving for a living) are legally required to carry their licence on their person.

A car driver can elect to produce it at a specific Garda Station within a timeframe.

However,what CAN occur,is if a Driver is stopped at a Drugs & Alcohol checkpoint and is not in possession of their licence,then they automatically default to the far lower Learner Permit & Vocational Driver limits until they can produce their full licence...could well cause some heartstopping moments ?

Interesting point. When i had lost my drivers licence before it was found again. I asked the Garda at the station would a photocopy I had do in the meantime? I was told that it should.

Then as luck would have it I was stopped by a traffic corps Garda a few days later. Needless to say he was not happy when I produced the photocopy of my drivers licence. He was even more annoyed when I told him the other guards said it was ok!

So that was why I was wondering if I could get a definitive answer in black and white.
It would be nice to know the legislation on this or any precedent in case law.

source

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Interesting point. When i had lost my drivers licence before it was found again. I asked the Garda at the station would a photocopy I had do in the meantime? I was told that it should.

Then as luck would have it I was stopped by a traffic corps Garda a few days later. Needless to say he was not happy when I produced the photocopy of my drivers licence. He was even more annoyed when I told him the other guards said it was ok!

So that was why I was wondering if I could get a definitive answer in black and white.
It would be nice to know the legislation on this or any precedent in case law.

Section 60 road traffic act 1961, not sure if it's been amended, but that's the primary legislation on production of your driving licence.

gormdubhgorm

source wrote: »

Section 60 road traffic act 1961, not sure if it's been amended, but that's the primary legislation on production of your driving licence.

Now that you pointed me in the right direction I found s.40 of RTA 1961

40.—(1) (a) A member of the Garda Síochána may demand, of a person driving in a public place a mechanically propelled vehicle or accompanying pursuant to regulations under this Act the holder of a provisional licence while such holder is driving in a public place a mechanically propelled vehicle, the production of a driving licence then having effect and licensing him to drive the vehicle, and if such person refuses or fails to produce the licence there and then, he shall, unless within ten days after the date on which the production was demanded he produces such licence in person to a member of the Garda Síochána at a Garda Síochána station to be named by such person at the time at which the production was so demanded, be guilty of an offence.

Fred Swanson

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gormdubhgorm

Ok I think I found the most up to date part.

S.40.4 (a) of the RTA 2010
(4) (a) Where a person of whom the production of a driving licence or learner permit is demanded under this section refuses or fails to produce the licence or permit there and then, a member of the Garda Síochána may require the person to produce within 10 days after the date of the requirement the licence or permit in person to a member of the Garda Síochána at a Garda Síochána station to be named by the person at the time of the requirement. If the person refuses or fails so to produce the licence, he or she commits an offence.


But this still does not answer my question. There is no mention whether a photocopy of the licence qualifies as production of the licence.
Also even if it does not qualify as production of the licence you have 10 days to produce your original licence.

I have no idea why that traffic corps guard was not happy with the photocopy! By the way it was just a warning I received that time in case your wondering!

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

source

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Ok I think I found the most up to date part.

S.40.4 (a) of the RTA 2010
(4) (a) Where a person of whom the production of a driving licence or learner permit is demanded under this section refuses or fails to produce the licence or permit there and then, a member of the Garda Síochána may require the person to produce within 10 days after the date of the requirement the licence or permit in person to a member of the Garda Síochána at a Garda Síochána station to be named by the person at the time of the requirement. If the person refuses or fails so to produce the licence, he or she commits an offence.


But this still does not answer my question. There is no mention whether a photocopy of the licence qualifies as production of the licence.
Also even if it does not qualify as production of the licence you have 10 days to produce your original licence.

I have no idea why that traffic corps guard was not happy with the photocopy! By the way it was just a warning I received that time in case your wondering!

Only an original is acceptable, if you photocopy your passport it won't be accepted, if you photocopy money it won't be accepted.

Why do you think a photocopy of your driving licence would be any different?

Pro Hoc Vice

AlekSmart wrote: »

My understanding is that only Vocational Drivers (Truck & Bus Driving for a living) are legally required to carry their licence on their person.

A car driver can elect to produce it at a specific Garda Station within a timeframe.

However,what CAN occur,is if a Driver is stopped at a Drugs & Alcohol checkpoint and is not in possession of their licence,then they automatically default to the far lower Learner Permit & Vocational Driver limits until they can produce their full licence...could well cause some heartstopping moments ?

All drivers are required to have their driving licence, as it's an offence to not produce on demand. In fact most people get done for non production on demand, non production within 10 days and finally not having a DL.

Ankhyu

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

But this still does not answer my question. There is no mention whether a photocopy of the licence qualifies as production of the licence.
Also even if it does not qualify as production of the licence you have 10 days to produce your original licence.

It doesn't qualify as production of your licence, and if you're planning on going by the 10 day thing, that's pretty much the same as not having a licence on you in the first place.

slimjimmc

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Ok I think I found the most up to date part.

S.40.4 (a) of the RTA 2010
(4) (a) Where a person of whom the production of a driving licence or learner permit is demanded under this section refuses or fails to produce the licence or permit there and then, a member of the Garda Síochána may require the person to produce within 10 days after the date of the requirement the licence or permit in person to a member of the Garda Síochána at a Garda Síochána station to be named by the person at the time of the requirement. If the person refuses or fails so to produce the licence, he or she commits an offence.


But this still does not answer my question. There is no mention whether a photocopy of the licence qualifies as production of the licence.
Also even if it does not qualify as production of the licence you have 10 days to produce your original licence.

I have no idea why that traffic corps guard was not happy with the photocopy! By the way it was just a warning I received that time in case your wondering!

Indeed. The law requires you to produce a licence on the spot if required by a Garda. A photocopy of a licence is not a licence it's ...... a photocopy of a licence.

mickdw

I think the requirement for us to carry or licence at all times had not been thought out properly.
Fair enough we should have to carry a document to produce a check points etc to prove that we are actually ok to drive but to be asked to carry this document at all times is crazy.
My thinking here is that a driving licence is regarded as a valid and acceptable id for most things and as such losing it can be a nightmare given the instances of identity fraud etc.
Imo, the uk had quite a smart system with a credit card type part and long paper part to the licence. The credit card type bit can be carried and produced at check points etc whereas the full paper licence would be required for opening bank accounts etc meaning you are in a much less tricky situation should you lose you wallet with licence in it as the paper pay can be safely locked away most of the time.
People are advised to keep their passport safe yet required to keep licence on their person. Licence can be just as useful to a certain type of criminal.

gormdubhgorm

mickdw wrote: »

I think the requirement for us to carry or licence at all times had not been thought out properly.
Fair enough we should have to carry a document to produce a check points etc to prove that we are actually ok to drive but to be asked to carry this document at all times is crazy.
My thinking here is that a driving licence is regarded as a valid and acceptable id for most things and as such losing it can be a nightmare given the instances of identity fraud etc.
Imo, the uk had quite a smart system with a credit card type part and long paper part to the licence. The credit card type bit can be carried and produced at check points etc whereas the full paper licence would be required for opening bank accounts etc meaning you are in a much less tricky situation should you lose you wallet with licence in it as the paper pay can be safely locked away most of the time.
People are advised to keep their passport safe yet required to keep licence on their person. Licence can be just as useful to a certain type of criminal.

Very well put. This is my main gripe about the whole system we currently have.

234

mickdw wrote: »

I think the requirement for us to carry or licence at all times had not been thought out properly.
Fair enough we should have to carry a document to produce a check points etc to prove that we are actually ok to drive but to be asked to carry this document at all times is crazy.
My thinking here is that a driving licence is regarded as a valid and acceptable id for most things and as such losing it can be a nightmare given the instances of identity fraud etc.
Imo, the uk had quite a smart system with a credit card type part and long paper part to the licence. The credit card type bit can be carried and produced at check points etc whereas the full paper licence would be required for opening bank accounts etc meaning you are in a much less tricky situation should you lose you wallet with licence in it as the paper pay can be safely locked away most of the time.
People are advised to keep their passport safe yet required to keep licence on their person. Licence can be just as useful to a certain type of criminal.

The only reason that the state provides you with a licence is so that you can produce it as evidence if an entitlement to drive.

If you want to use it for a whole host of other ID purposes then that's your business, but don't expect the state to dilute the primary purpose of a licence to accommodate you.

What we really need is a national ID card that can be used for all these other purposes. No big deal if you lose that and need to replace it.

Also, last time I tried to use a driving licence in a bank I was told that they don't accept them anymore. Lots of places will only take national age cards or passports as ID.

mickdw

234 wrote: »

The only reason that the state provides you with a licence is so that you can produce it as evidence if an entitlement to drive.

If you want to use it for a whole host of other ID purposes then that's your business, but don't expect the state to dilute the primary purpose of a licence to accommodate you.

What we really need is a national ID card that can be used for all these other purposes. No big deal if you lose that and need to replace it.

Also, last time I tried to use a driving licence in a bank I was told that they don't accept them anymore. Lots of places will only take national age cards or passports as ID.

Did you read my post at all our did you just fail to understand it.
I don't wish to use it for anything else. I just don't wish to be forced to carry an document daily that in the wrong hands can bring a world of pain on me in terms of identity fraud etc. My point was that the UK system of a 2 part licence gets round this issue and is equally convenient for all concerned.
Also to all those who say leave it in the car, there are two problems with that. Firstly a high number of drivers use both work and private vehicles daily so are required to take it from car to car. Secondly, there is further risk of theft by simply leaving it in a car.
I was very recently asked for id when visiting a bank and driving licence was accepted.

source

mickdw wrote: »

Did you read my post at all our did you just fail to understand it.
I don't wish to use it for anything else. I just don't wish to be forced to carry an document daily that in the wrong hands can bring a world of pain on me in terms of identity fraud etc. My point was that the UK system of a 2 part licence gets round this issue and is equally convenient for all concerned.
Also to all those who say leave it in the car, there are two problems with that. Firstly a high number of drivers use both work and private vehicles daily so are required to take it from car to car. Secondly, there is further risk of theft by simply leaving it in a car.
I was very recently asked for id when visiting a bank and driving licence was accepted.

So lobby your local TD to have the law changed and in the mean time follow the law as it stands. That really is all you can do.

Rother

I drive different cars every day and, not being a person who carries a handbag, that old fashioned license is a pain in the hole to carry everywhere. So I just have a copy in each car.

Ive been stopped at check point twice in the last year and they have had no problem with the copy when I explain the reason to them. They didnt even ask me to produce the real one at a station.

Cant wait til its up though so i can just keep the new card one in my wallet.

Marcusm

mickdw wrote: »

Did you read my post at all our did you just fail to understand it.
I don't wish to use it for anything else. I just don't wish to be forced to carry an document daily that in the wrong hands can bring a world of pain on me in terms of identity fraud etc. My point was that the UK system of a 2 part licence gets round this issue and is equally convenient for all concerned.
Also to all those who say leave it in the car, there are two problems with that. Firstly a high number of drivers use both work and private vehicles daily so are required to take it from car to car. Secondly, there is further risk of theft by simply leaving it in a car.
I was very recently asked for id when visiting a bank and driving licence was accepted.

I fail to see how the "UK system" is any different; the photo card there contains all the information needed for identity theft. The paper counterpart merely holds a list of endorsements. It has no photo and is not generally of use in opening bank accounts.

Johnboy1951

source wrote: »

So lobby your local TD to have the law changed and in the mean time follow the law as it stands. That really is all you can do.

Having read this thread I am confused how the law stands.

I have been working with the impression that the licence itself must be carried at all times for production to a Garda if requested, and not to have it available at the time was an offence. I don't recall exactly when, but do recall that point being made rather forcibly as a change in the law.

Reading the linked to Road Traffic Act & amendment, it appears that the '10 days to produce the licence at a named Garda Station' is still applicable.

That would mean it is not necessary to carry the licence while driving.

Did I miss a link to a later amendment which wipes out the '10 day' period?

slimjimmc

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Having read this thread I am confused how the law stands.

I have been working with the impression that the licence itself must be carried at all times for production to a Garda if requested, and not to have it available at the time was an offence. I don't recall exactly when, but do recall that point being made rather forcibly as a change in the law.

Reading the linked to Road Traffic Act & amendment, it appears that the '10 days to produce the licence at a named Garda Station' is still applicable.

It's an offence for a driver to fail to produce a driving licence on the spot when demanded by a Garda. (Sect 40.1 RTA).

The Garda then has the option of demanding that you produce it within 10 days at a station nominated by yourself. If you fail that's another offence
(Sect 40.4.a RTA).

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

That would mean it is not necessary to carry the licence while driving.

Did I miss a link to a later amendment which wipes out the '10 day' period?

From what I can see both laws still stand.

Johnboy1951

slimjimmc wrote: »

It's an offence for a driver to fail to produce a driving licence on the spot when demanded by a Garda. (Sect 40.1 RTA).

The Garda then has the option of demanding that you produce it within 10 days at a station nominated by yourself. If you fail that's another offence
(Sect 40.4.a RTA).


From what I can see both laws still stand.

Thank you. That clarifies it for me.

mickdw

Marcusm wrote: »

I fail to see how the "UK system" is any different; the photo card there contains all the information needed for identity theft. The paper counterpart merely holds a list of endorsements. It has no photo and is not generally of use in opening bank accounts.

Isn't the paper one a life time licence and the card updated at certain intervals due to photo identification requirements?
There are certainly many instances where both parts are asked for as a form of id.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

mickdw

Ok so keeping up with tech and all that, why not a card with photo, name and driving categories covered with additional encrypted secure info readable electronically.
Putting name, address, d.o.b. photo and signuture on it is abit pointless
I've never lost a licence but alot of people seem to be quite careless with them.
Would anyone here genuinely be happy to hand their name, address, d.o b. and signiture to a criminal?

slimjimmc

mickdw wrote: »

Ok so keeping up with tech and all that, why not a card with photo, name and driving categories covered with additional encrypted secure info readable electronically.
Putting name, address, d.o.b. photo and signuture on it is abit pointless
I've never lost a licence but alot of people seem to be quite careless with them.
Would anyone here genuinely be happy to hand their name, address, d.o b. and signiture to a criminal?

Probably because the cost of equipping every Garda unit on patrol with a reader would likely be prohibitive at the moment, if such equipment even exists.
Any Garda can require a driver for a licence not just those on traffic duty. It would also have to be available to every police force in the EU and you can bet it won't be long before the crims get the reader technology too. It's a project for the distant future imo.