Help with transit mk5

vinniem

Hi all, have a transit base. Having intermittent electrical problem, batteries all well charged. Turn key can hear relay click, but no instrument lights. Then maybe one time in ten instrument lights come on. Had it running other night, ran for 20 secs and engine just shut down!! Measured batts and one was around 11.8v but charged up so all good battery's now. Any ideas lads?

This is a recurring problem of yours.
What's the cranking voltage min. reading?

I think your motor battery needs load (CCA) testing.
Most mechanics will have a starter tester.

vinniem

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

This is a recurring problem of yours.
What's the cranking voltage min. reading?

I think your motor battery needs load (CCA) testing.
Most mechanics will have a starter tester.

Sir Liamalot, it is indeed a recurring problem...thought it had went away :-( cranking voltage? It not even getting to that point as no instrument lights..would that not suggest battery or grounding for electronics? Also engine did start the other night but cut out after 20 secs. Going to France in July so really cant go with this uncertainty, anybody know a good ford automechanic in South Tipperary?

moodrater

Doesnt sound like the voltage isblow enough to stop instrument light coming on. You could remove the relay and bridge the pins to check that.

vinniem

moodrater wrote: »

Doesnt sound like the voltage isblow enough to stop instrument light coming on. You could remove the relay and bridge the pins to check that.

Thanks mooderator, yeah checked batts again this morning all around 12.5 v, is that relay under seats then one that clunks when key turned? Any idea which pins to bridge out? Thx

For what it's worth the CCA voltage can be seen if you stick a DMM on the starter battery set to record min. DC voltage or within eyeball range. When you turn the engine the voltage will drop. A reading below 10v in this weather would indicate a weak battery. 9v or less is near a goner. As moodrater says though; probably not the battery.
Can you post pics of the relay with part number and pinout numbers? Maybe we can figure it out.

vinniem

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

For what it's worth the CCA voltage can be seen if you stick a DMM on the starter battery set to record min. DC voltage or within eyeball range. When you turn the engine the voltage will drop. A reading below 10v in this weather would indicate a weak battery. 9v or less is near a goner. As moodrater says though; probably not the battery.
Can you post pics of the relay with part number and pinout numbers? Maybe we can figure it out.

Thanks Liamalot..attached is pic of fuses and relay under drivers seat.

vinniem

vinniem wrote: »

Thanks Liamalot..attached is pic of fuses and relay under drivers seat.

Another pic lads..

moodrater

That's the standard van setup relay connects the rear starter battery to the front aux battery when the ignition is turned on. So if your starter battery is flat or banjaxed it will drag down the aux battery when the relay kicks in. Best suggestion is as liamalot says get the batteries tested if OK look for a charging problem

vinniem

moodrater wrote: »

That's the standard van setup relay connects the rear starter battery to the front aux battery when the ignition is turned on. So if your starter battery is flat or banjaxed it will drag down the aux battery when the relay kicks in. Best suggestion is as liamalot says get the batteries tested if OK look for a charging problem

Thanks moodrater will get batts checked. But first position of ignition switch should illuminate the instrument lights, then second position they go out and engine cranks. I aint getting instrument lights at all?

moodrater

vinniem wrote: »

Thanks moodrater will get batts checked. But first position of ignition switch should illuminate the instrument lights, then second position they go out and engine cranks. I aint getting instrument lights at all?

You need to check the ignition and ecu relays under the bonnet. When the ignition is on and its not working moving them slightly in their socket may be enough to locate a faulty one. Removing applying contact cleaner to the socket and pins and reseating next.

Hard to know with computer aided campers. It should be able to spare 20W to illuminate the dash but if your ECU is detecting under-votage then it may get fussy.

That's a double coil relay is it Moodrater?
A and B are your battery poles I'd suspect...they'll be the two obviously huge connections by comparison to the coil connections. Although you could just use a jump lead instead from one battery +ive to the other.

If that doesn't work then I'd suggest swapping out whichever battery you said earlier was sitting at 11.8v with one from a 4x4 or car with similar CCA and see if it works.

Voltage is not a good measure of capacity or age it just tells a % from charge reserve level.

By the way that's not a 190A relay, :rolleyes: I don't care what it says in the lid.


That's a genuine 100A relay beside a bosch type "70 Amp"

Contact cleaner? Any good? I always use a grinder or dip them in H2SO4.

vinniem

moodrater wrote: »

You need to check the ignition and ecu relays under the bonnet. When the ignition is on and its not working moving them slightly in their socket may be enough to locate a faulty one. Removing applying contact cleaner to the socket and pins and reseating next.

Thanks...im thinking thus could beheading in right direction, will try tomorrow and let ye know

vinniem

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Hard to know with computer aided campers. It should be able to spare 20W to illuminate the dash but if your ECU is detecting under-votage then it may get fussy.

That's a double coil relay is it Moodrater?
A and B are your battery poles I'd suspect...they'll be the two obviously huge connections by comparison to the coil connections. Although you could just use a jump lead instead from one battery +ive to the other.

If that doesn't work then I'd suggest swapping out whichever battery you said earlier was sitting at 11.8v with one from a 4x4 or car with similar CCA and see if it works.

Voltage is not a good measure of capacity or age it just tells a % from charge reserve level.

By the way that's not a 190A relay, :rolleyes: I don't care what it says in the lid.


That's a genuine 100A relay beside a bosch type "70 Amp"

Thanks sirliamalot, leisure batt and batt in pic are brand new, the only battery didn't change is other one under driver, the one showing 11.8v, but took charge and seems to be holding at about 12.5v. I might just try changing the last batt as well. Can't have this thing letting me down in france.

BorneTobyWilde

Sounds like a planet earth problem

What does the eldest battery do ECU or starter? 12.5v is very low indeed on a freshly charged batt. That's only ~25% usable capacity. What are you charging it with?

Yeah try grounding too...check continuity between every battery -ive and chassis then relay -ive's and chassis.
Chassis test points should be clean exposed metal. Seat belts bolted through the floor inside work sometimes, anything on the engine head would do too.

moodrater

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Contact cleaner? Any good? I always use a grinder or dip them in H2SO4.

Yikes 600grit paper or wire wool is as aggressive as I get Not much use for the socket either. Contact cleaners remove oxides and some lubricate. Servisol 10 from maplin et al. cleans lubes and protects been using it for donkeys years you can get holts contact spray in motorfactors too but it seems to be mostly propellant.

:pac: I gave up trying to be gentle with mine 3 years ago. She loves a good battle. It's only a cheapy stone grinder on a screw-gun though not a 4 inch disc...well...not usually.
Might try that, hate giving Maplin money much as I do anyways.
I had some Castrol metal parts cleaner for a while before it got borrowed...great stuff for everything really, grease, oil, red and white oxides. Expensive though.

vinniem

moodrater wrote: »

You need to check the ignition and ecu relays under the bonnet. When the ignition is on and its not working moving them slightly in their socket may be enough to locate a faulty one. Removing applying contact cleaner to the socket and pins and reseating next.

Ok reseated all relays under bonnet, still no joy :-(

vinniem

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

What does the eldest battery do ECU or starter? 12.5v is very low indeed on a freshly charged batt. That's only ~25% usable capacity. What are you charging it with?

Thanks..charged with 12 v batt charger Ring i think. Ok so swapped battery positions, still no joy. Checked each negative to a ground point, good continuity less than 1 ohm. At a loss here cause a very odd time when turn key will get instrument lights, something intermittent. Looked under bonnet for any broke or loose ground connections could see nothing.

bigroad

Sounds like loose earth strap.I suppose you have checked battery earth to van body.Other than that run a direct live to the ignition switch.Could be a break in the wiring to ignition.

moodrater

vinniem wrote: »

Thanks..charged with 12 v batt charger Ring i think. Ok so swapped battery positions, still no joy. Checked each negative to a ground point, good continuity less than 1 ohm. At a loss here cause a very odd time when turn key will get instrument lights, something intermittent. Looked under bonnet for any broke or loose ground connections could see nothing.

You'd need to check for 12v on the engine and ecu relays with ignition on. See if you can find a schematic on the transit forum.

bigroad

Fordtransit.org forum

vinniem

bigroad wrote: »

Sounds like loose earth strap.I suppose you have checked battery earth to van body.Other than that run a direct live to the ignition switch.Could be a break in the wiring to ignition.

Thanks bigroad, without trying to sound too stupid but wheres the earthstrap?

1 ohm is probably the resistance of the meter leads
Hrmmm...power getting to ECU?
Does anything else ignition switched work other than the dash? Eg. cig lighter socket, indicators etc?

vinniem

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

1 ohm is probably the resistance of the meter leads
Hrmmm...power getting to ECU?
Does anything else ignition switched work other than the dash? Eg. cig lighter socket, indicators etc?

Thanks, yeah radio lights cig lighter all working, just no instrument lights when key to first position. Hardly a fuse as very odd time will come on...thanks

Check fuses anyway, first call.
Reverse lights still out? Are the side marker lights still behaving?
Some vehicles have dash illumination (not usually warning lights though) on the same circuit as parking and number plate lights.

vinniem

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Check fuses anyway, first call.
Reverse lights still out? Are the side marker lights still behaving?
Some vehicles have dash illumination (not usually warning lights though) on the same circuit as parking and number plate lights.

Ok will check fuses, reversing light fixed it was gearbox switch got ford to fix while doing doe. Thanks

check 87 terminal of ECU relay for 12v with ignition on or back-probe ECU power connector if you can. I'm not sure if you'd be best to disconnect the ECU altogether to check it...maybe someone else might know?

moodrater

Waiting for paint to dry here literally :pac: had a look and found schematic:

R8 is for ECU, R6 for ignition







Hard to read but big ones at the bottom are r4 r5 r6 and small ones vertically at the right are r7 r8 and r10

"Start by checking the PCM relay and ignition relays in the fuse box under the bonnet, with the ignition on terminals 1 and 3 on both relays should have 12 volts to them, check that pin 2 on both relays is an earth. Pin 5 of the PCM relay supplies fuses 11, 26, 28 and 29 in the same fuse box under the bonnet, check that there is 12 volts to these fuses."

vinniem

moodrater wrote: »

Waiting for paint to dry here literally :pac: had a look and found schematic:

R8 is for ECU, R6 for ignition







Hard to read but big ones at the bottom are r4 r5 r6 and small ones vertically at the right are r7 r8 and r10

"Start by checking the PCM relay and ignition relays in the fuse box under the bonnet, with the ignition on terminals 1 and 3 on both relays should have 12 volts to them, check that pin 2 on both relays is an earth. Pin 5 of the PCM relay supplies fuses 11, 26, 28 and 29 in the same fuse box under the bonnet, check that there is 12 volts to these fuses."

Moodrater thanks for going to all that bother i appreciate it, that's my job for tomorrow now :-) hopefully I find a rouge relay or something. Will let you know, thanks again

bigroad

vinniem wrote: »

Thanks bigroad, without trying to sound too stupid but wheres the earthstrap?

the battery under the bonnet should have an earth from negitave to the van body.Check that connections are secure.Its a few years since i worked on one so only going from memory.
Is yours a 2.5d or 2.5td.Oh yea check all fuses that are related.
Take off the ignition cowl and there should be about four wires going into the back ,get your power tester and check power with key off and in number 1 position then no 2 position.

Checking relays while installed is a little finicky because they have to be plugged in to check them unless you want to remove them and bench test them which takes longer and you need a 12VDC power source.
If they're not potted in don't-open-me-gunk then you can remove the covers and see the gubbins but I'd advise extreme caution with the ignition relay; standing with a head under the bonnet you could get yourself in a lot of trouble from all kinds of sources. Even I'd take that one out to bench test it.

The ECU relay is fair game although maybe just take both inside and do what you can with them out of circuit.
In circuit you have to prise the relay up enough to get the probe in under it against the spade you are testing but with a narrow enough gap that the relay is still making good connections also without shorting the probe against another spade (leave the negative probe on the chassis).
It may or may not be easier probe from behind the relay box.

[the numbers are written on the underside of the relay...they may be a variation or no numbers in some cases which it a pain. Parantheses numbers are corresponding numbers from Moodrater's wiring doc. find]

Out of circuit (having removed the relay to expose the sockets) at the relay box with the ignition on stage one you should have
Socket 30 (3): 12V always
Socket 87 (5): OL (open circuit)...come back to this later if nothing else is amiss.
Socket 86 (1): Switched live (by ignition key for ECU) {I don't know what that's switched by for the ignition..here be dragons (off the map)}
Socket 85 (2): Ground

On the relay
Pin 86 to 85 (1 & 2): continuity with a resistance of tens of ohms (could be well over 100Ω on the ignition relay)
Pin 30 to pin 87 (3 & 5): open circuit....until you apply 12v positive to pin 86 and negative to pin 85. When you energise the relay coil (86 to +12v and 85 to 0V) then you ought to have continuity between pins 30 and 87. You'll also hear/feel it click.
Open circuit all other combinations.

Often blade fuses can be checked in circuit, you don't have to pull them. The newer ones have two test points behind the blades on the top. You can just buzz these for continuity with the meter.

moodrater

Just checking f18 and f26 for 12v should eliminate the relays really. Hopefully you'll find one has no 12v with ignition on can work back,

F18 is only live while cranking though?

moodrater

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

F18 is only live while cranking though?

Nope its on in the run position supplies lights, sensors loads of clobber.

vinniem

moodrater wrote: »

Nope its on in the run position supplies lights, sensors loads of clobber.

Lads got it going with ye're help thanks a million. Under bonnet ecu and ignition relays, got my 12vdc on pins 1 and 3. Noticed a little bit of green corrosion dust in sockets, cleaned with small screw driver.. Sanded all four pins of each relay and put back into sockets. Each and every time turned key getting all ignition lights and done at least 50 times with same result. So problem solved, thanks moodrater and sir liamsalot and others for all your help. :-)

Happy Days. Kudos.
50 starts! Might want to charge up that starter battery again.
Bench charger will do a better job than the alternator.

vinniem

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Happy Days. Kudos.
50 starts! Might want to charge up that starter battery again.
Bench charger will do a better job than the alternator.

Thanks :-) well didn't crank 50 times just first key position. Have a good ring bench charger, will juice em up later. Typically what voltage should a healthy battery sit at after a few days?

moodrater

vinniem wrote: »

Lads got it going with ye're help thanks a million. Under bonnet ecu and ignition relays, got my 12vdc on pins 1 and 3. Noticed a little bit of green corrosion dust in sockets, cleaned with small screw driver.. Sanded all four pins of each relay and put back into sockets. Each and every time turned key getting all ignition lights and done at least 50 times with same result. So problem solved, thanks moodrater and sir liamsalot and others for all your help. :-)

I'd douse it in contact cleaner and check the cover and grommets for likely leaks. If you had brought it to ford they would probably have fitted a new ignition switch, new ecu, and new fuse box :pac:

vinniem

vinniem wrote: »

Typically what voltage should a healthy battery sit at after a few days?

12.8v but I wouldn't worry about it until 12.3v (sulphation threshold) or dropping below 9.5v cranking.
My starter sits at about 12.4v/12.5v after years of running the radio for hours/days with the engine off. It misses the odd time, I don't think I'll get another winter outtov it...of course I said that last year too. I just give it a solar boost in the mornings before setting off, not so big a concern with another 60kg of house batteries to reinforce it if needed.

Just thinking...maybe a good idea eyeball the rest of your fuse/relay box for more corrosion...preventative maintenance.

moodrater

moodrater wrote: »

If you had brought it to ford they would probably have fitted a new ignition switch, new ecu, and new fuse box :pac:

True that. You just saved yourself the price of a top of the range multimeter Vinniem!

vinniem

moodrater wrote: »

I'd douse it in contact cleaner and check the cover and grommets for likely leaks. If you had brought it to ford they would probably have fitted a new ignition switch, new ecu, and new fuse box :pac:

Very true moodrater, they would make most of it :-) but thanks to ye guys on here have saved a packet.. Happy days