Speeding Questions

almostover

Right before I begin this post I have to state that I, in no way, condone speeding (i.e. spare me the lectures).

So was travelling from Cork to Galway on Saturday morning and was travelling in the outside lane of the dual carriageway between Limerick and Ennis. Girlfriend was in the front seat and she noticed 2 Gardai at the side of the road with a speed gun. Wasn't paying any particular attention to my speed at the time and it was too late to brake as there was a car right behind me. Looked down at the speedometer and was doing 105 kph ish. Thought I might be caught.

One of the Gardai beckoned with his hand for me to pull in and I pulled in 100 meters up the road in the hard shoulder. The car behind me also pulled in too. He began walking up the hard shoulder towards us. First he stops at the red Ford Focus behind me, says something to the driver and then continues onto me. Tells me I was doing 112 Kph in a 100 zone. Takes down my registration number, checks tax, insurance and NCT (all of which were fine) and asks for my licence. Asks me if my address is the one on the licence and I confirm this. He then tells me to slow down, arrive alive and not to let this ruin my weekend. Goes back to the other car and begins taking his details.

So I was caught speeding for the 1st time. Was embarrassing and will definitely slow me down in future. I admit I was in the wrong but I have a few questions:

1) Can you request proof that the speed gun used to catch you was correctly calibrated? If so how does one request this proof? Anytime I pass one of those signs with a speed readout my speedometer appears to be conservative by showing a speed slightly higher that I'm actually travelling. But in this case I appeared as if the Garda speed camera was reading higher that my speedometer. Just would like to know if my speedo is accurate or not.

2) Found it a little strange that there were able to do 2 cars for speeding in quick succession like that? As the 1st car I presume I'm fooked but the guard also did the driver behind me for speeding. Are the gaurds allowed to pull over two people like that?

xabi

I was pulled over being the 2nd car, wasn't done for it though, just a ticking off. Btw, were you overtaking at the time?

No Pants

To answer your first question, I think it has been established on here before that the speed gun does need to be proven accurate for the court to accept it. As for your second question; I don't see why not.

djimi

If the second car was travelling right up your arse then its fair to say that if you were speeding then so was he.

You can request to see the calibration on the camera Im sure, but it would involve a trip to court and the risk of double points and a higher fine. If you want to test your speedo first download a speedo app for your phone and see what it says. Chances are your speedo will read slightly higher than the app (which is perfectly normal); if the speedo is reading lower than the app then something is wrong.

lintdrummer

almostover wrote: »

1) Can you request proof that the speed gun used to catch you was correctly calibrated? If so how does one request this proof? Anytime I pass one of those signs with a speed readout my speedometer appears to be conservative by showing a speed slightly higher that I'm actually travelling. But in this case I appeared as if the Garda speed camera was reading higher that my speedometer. Just would like to know if my speedo is accurate or not.

2) Found it a little strange that there were able to do 2 cars for speeding in quick succession like that? As the 1st car I presume I'm fooked but the guard also did the driver behind me for speeding. Are the gaurds allowed to pull over two people like that?

Relax. You might not even get done for this. Particularly if you have never had any previous motoring offences. The guard did his job by scaring you into slowing down in future.
I would say that their equipment is probably more accurate than your speedo so I wouldn't go down that route of calibration.
I was caught speeding before (80 in a 60, Finglas by pass) and even though all my details were taken etc., and the guard told me I'd be fined, I never heard any more about it.

timmy4u2

It is an impossibility to detect two vehicles in very quick succession with the hand held gun due to the fact that it has to lock on, record, reset and lock on again.
It is very possible that he had you picked up from a distance and also picked up the other car from a distance.
These guns have a very long range.

almostover

Again I don't condone speeding but it seemed strange to be pulling for speeding on a dual carriageway on a Saturday morning within half a mile of where the motorway begins on a straight stretch of road. I understand that speeding is wrong and dangerous but surely there are more dangerous locations in which to deploy these speed traps?

Like I said it has been an eye opener for me and I will definitely be more mindful of my speed from now on.

corktina

the Gards have always lived on that stretch.

almostover

lintdrummer wrote: »

Relax. You might not even get done for this. Particularly if you have never had any previous motoring offences. The guard did his job by scaring you into slowing down in future.
I would say that their equipment is probably more accurate than your speedo so I wouldn't go down that route of calibration.
I was caught speeding before (80 in a 60, Finglas by pass) and even though all my details were taken etc., and the guard told me I'd be fined, I never heard any more about it.

Funny you should say that, at no stage did the guard say that I was being charged with speeding just that I was speeding. I'll just keep an eye on the post for a while and cross my fingers

_Kaiser_

If your speedo is under-reading then you should get that checked out. In general they will over-read by up to 10% depending on speed, tyres etc but never under.

112 in a 100 seems harsh to me but there ya go. The position of the trap isn't surprising though as they will be targeting people who've already sped up approaching the motorway - especially if it's the same quality of road and the signs changing from green to blue are the only real difference (I'm not familiar with the road in question so going on the description).

Were you overtaking at the time? If not you're probably lucky he didn't mention sitting in the wrong lane as well, which to me would be a bigger offence than 10km over on a motorway-grade road, but that's me. It might also explain why the other car was right behind you. If you WERE overtaking however then there could be a question as to which car the speed gun was picking up.

In any case, all you can do is wait and see if a penalty notice arrives in a few weeks (but they have up to 6 months to send it)

almostover

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

If your speedo is under-reading then you should get that checked out. In general they will over-read by up to 10% depending on speed, tyres etc but never under.

112 in a 100 seems harsh to me but there ya go. The position of the trap isn't surprising though as they will be targeting people who've already sped up approaching the motorway - especially if it's the same quality of road and the signs changing from green to blue are the only real difference (I'm not familiar with the road in question so going on the description).

Were you overtaking at the time? If not you're probably lucky he didn't mention sitting in the wrong lane as well, which to me would be a bigger offence than 10km over on a motorway-grade road, but that's me. It might also explain why the other car was right behind you. If you WERE overtaking however then there could be a question as to which car the speed gun was picking up.

In any case, all you can do is wait and see if a penalty notice arrives in a few weeks (but they have up to 6 months to send it)

I was overtaking at the time. Don't worry, nothing annoys me more than right lane hoggers!

ironclaw

timmy4u2 wrote: »

It is an impossibility to detect two vehicles in very quick succession with the hand held gun due to the fact that it has to lock on, record, reset and lock on again.
It is very possible that he had you picked up from a distance and also picked up the other car from a distance.
These guns have a very long range.

Nonsense. Its entirely possible. The 'lock on' time with the Ultralyte (The Laser gun the Garda use) is sub-1 second. Most Gardai enact a double tap procedure. That is a first read, then trigger release and then a second reading.

To answer the OPs question, a Garda can take a gun that isn't even turned on, point it at your car and tell you that you were speeding. There is no onus to prove the equipment is fully functional, calibrated or in working condition. Its a mental law and one that could only be challenged in a very high court in this country. There was a challenge in a (district) court I think as the gun cannot produce a permanent record and the case was thrown out. Nothing more came of it I believe.

The Laser gun used in this country is extremely accurate. You were most likely doing the speed he told you. The second car may have pulled in believing the Garda was beckoning him?

pa990

timmy4u2 wrote: »

It is an impossibility to detect two vehicles in very quick succession with the hand held gun due to the fact that it has to lock on, record, reset and lock on again.
It is very possible that he had you picked up from a distance and also picked up the other car from a distance.
These guns have a very long range.

Obviously you never used an LTI Ultralyte or 20:20

almostover

ironclaw wrote: »

Nonsense. Its entirely possible. The 'lock on' time with the Ultralyte (The Laser gun the Garda use) is sub-1 second. Most Gardai enact a double tap procedure. That is a first read, then trigger release and then a second reading.

To answer the OPs question, a Garda can take a gun that isn't even turned on, point it at your car and tell you that you were speeding. There is no onus to prove the equipment is fully functional, calibrated or in working condition. Its a mental law and one that could only be challenged in a very high court in this country. There was a challenge in a (district) court I think as the gun cannot produce a permanent record and the case was thrown out. Nothing more came of it I believe.

The Laser gun used in this country is extremely accurate. You were most likely doing the speed he told you. The second car may have pulled in believing the Garda was beckoning him?

That is crazy! You mean to say that the speed gun doesn't have to be a calibrated? I work as an engineer in the medical device industry and the thought of improperly calibrated equipment popped into my mind. How the hell are they supposed to get a conviction if they can't trust their equipment? I would be seriously tempted to challenge on the grounds of calibration if this is true.

Chimaera

If he just gave you a warning on the side of the road, you're probably fine. I've had that a few times and just had a polite warning to take it handy. Once you're not driving like a maniac they won't take too much notice of you being a few km/h over.

I agree that the law on calibration is insane, but to challenge it you need to take the case to court and risk the larger fine/points that go with it. My guess is that you'd only be able to get it knocked down in the High Court or Supreme Court and that's not cheap.

almostover

Chimaera wrote: »

If he just gave you a warning on the side of the road, you're probably fine. I've had that a few times and just had a polite warning to take it handy. Once you're not driving like a maniac they won't take too much notice of you being a few km/h over.

I agree that the law on calibration is insane, but to challenge it you need to take the case to court and risk the larger fine/points that go with it. My guess is that you'd only be able to get it knocked down in the High Court or Supreme Court and that's not cheap.

This country would madden you sometimes! You have to pay for justice it seems. Tbh in light of the whistleblowers scandal the AGS and the juctise need to be completely reformed. And motoring in general in this country is crying out for reform too, some fairly bonkers laws/regulations/taxes.

Micky 32

almostover wrote: »

Again I don't condone speeding but it seemed strange to be pulling for speeding on a dual carriageway on a Saturday morning within half a mile of where the motorway begins on a straight stretch of road. I understand that speeding is wrong and dangerous but surely there are more dangerous locations in which to deploy these speed traps?

Like I said it has been an eye opener for me and I will definitely be more mindful of my speed from now on.

IMO You can be 99.9% sure you'll get a ticket in the post, in answer to your question why on a long straight stretch unfortunately for most part it's all about ticket qoutas and revenue collecting. Of course no one likes to see anyone get killed on the road but the priorities are 1. Money 2. Safety. All in my opinion of course

CiniO

almostover wrote: »

1) Can you request proof that the speed gun used to catch you was correctly calibrated? If so how does one request this proof? Anytime I pass one of those signs with a speed readout my speedometer appears to be conservative by showing a speed slightly higher that I'm actually travelling. But in this case I appeared as if the Garda speed camera was reading higher that my

AFAIR no point in requesting calibration cert, as speed measuring devices don't need to be calibrated in Ireland. Garda can just make statement that someone was speeding - and that will probably suffice.

Also in other countries is not much better. You might have laws requiring calibration of speed detecting devices, but what help is that? They will surely show you one, no matter if device is properly calibrated or not.

In January I was travelling in 60km/h zone. Police was having speed check behind a hill, but as I got flashed by few drivers, I was doing exactly 60km/h and no more.
They pulled me over, and they show me their speed gun with 86km/h on it.
I said it's absolutely impossible as I was doing 60, as I knew they were here.
They checked my documents, brethylised me, and told me that it must have been their equipment misreading.
Probably fact that I had dashcam helped.

Otherwise there'd be hardly I could do.

almostover

CiniO wrote: »

AFAIR no point in requesting calibration cert, as speed measuring devices don't need to be calibrated in Ireland. Garda can just make statement that someone was speeding - and that will probably suffice.

Also in other countries is not much better. You might have laws requiring calibration of speed detecting devices, but what help is that? They will surely show you one, no matter if device is properly calibrated or not.

In January I was travelling in 60km/h zone. Police was having speed check behind a hill, but as I got flashed by few drivers, I was doing exactly 60km/h and no more.
They pulled me over, and they show me their speed gun with 86km/h on it.
I said it's absolutely impossible as I was doing 60, as I knew they were here.
They checked my documents, brethylised me, and told me that it must have been their equipment misreading.
Probably fact that I had dashcam helped.

Otherwise there'd be hardly I could do.

So the Gardai have no reliable evidence that I was doing the speed quoted to me no more so than I have no proof that I wasn't doing said speed? How do they make any speeding convictions at all without calibrated equipment? I'm seriously tempted to challenge this!!

CiniO

almostover wrote: »

So the Gardai have no reliable evidence that I was doing the speed quoted to me no more so than I have no proof that I wasn't doing said speed? How do they make any speeding convictions at all without calibrated equipment? I'm seriously tempted to challenge this!!

I'm too tired to look up in the statuebook, but there is a law clearly saying that speed detecting equipment doesn't need to be calibrated.

Probably also for that reason, Ireland is one of very few countries in EU, where speeding fines are not graduated (i.e. you get fined the same for being 5km/h over the limit as being 40km/h over the limit). In most countries it's different. Small fine for being 10-20 over the limit, and big fine for being fine for being 40-50 over the limit.
But without having a requirement of properly calibrated equipment, they couldn't introduce anything like that in Ireland.

_Kaiser_

almostover wrote: »

So the Gardai have no reliable evidence that I was doing the speed quoted to me no more so than I have no proof that I wasn't doing said speed? How do they make any speeding convictions at all without calibrated equipment? I'm seriously tempted to challenge this!!

Infortunately there's not much point in challenging it..

The system is setup to actively discourage that by handing you more points if you lose the case - which you inevitably will as the "word" of the Garda (a member of an organisation that's shown itself to be little more than an Old Boys Club for the well-connected, and an incompetent Keystone Cops brigade generally) is all that's needed to secure a conviction in most cases.

Yep, that's Irish "justice" for you - now take your 2 points and be quiet

No Pants

Just found this while looking for something else (colour and emphasis mine):

Amendment of section 81 of Act of 2010 — evidence in relation to speeding, etc.

22. The Act of 2010 is amended in section 81—

(a) by substituting for subsection (6) the following:

“(6) In proceedings for an offence referred to in subsection (1) it shall be presumed, until the contrary is shown, that—

(a) the electronic or other apparatus used for tendering of evidence was provided, maintained and operated by a member of the Garda Síochána, or a person authorised under an agreement under subsection (7),

(b) the development, production and viewing of records produced by such apparatus was carried out by a member of the Garda Síochána, or a person authorised under an agreement under subsection (7), and

(c) subsection (3) has been complied with.”,

and

(b) in subsection (9) in the definition of “member of the Garda Síochána”, by substituting “subsections (4) and (7) ” for “subsection (3) or (7) ”.

Anyone know what their definition of "maintained" is?

ironclaw

No Pants wrote: »

Anyone know what their definition of "maintained" is?

I would imagine to a reasonable standard as dictated by the manufacturer. However, there is a statue that says there is no onus to do this. Its on a thread here.

No Pants

ironclaw wrote: »

I would imagine to a reasonable standard as dictated by the manufacturer. However, there is a statue that says there is no onus to do this. Its on a thread here.

The part that I quoted was taken from the Road Traffic Act 2014, how would that work with any other statutes that contradict it?

Apologies for not including the link earlier.

househero

almostover wrote: »

Right before I begin this post I have to state that I, in no way, condone speeding (i.e. spare me the lectures).

So was travelling from Cork to Galway on Saturday morning and was travelling in the outside lane of the dual carriageway between Limerick and Ennis. Girlfriend was in the front seat and she noticed 2 Gardai at the side of the road with a speed gun. Wasn't paying any particular attention to my speed at the time and it was too late to brake as there was a car right behind me. Looked down at the speedometer and was doing 105 kph ish. Thought I might be caught.

One of the Gardai beckoned with his hand for me to pull in and I pulled in 100 meters up the road in the hard shoulder. The car behind me also pulled in too. He began walking up the hard shoulder towards us. First he stops at the red Ford Focus behind me, says something to the driver and then continues onto me. Tells me I was doing 112 Kph in a 100 zone. Takes down my registration number, checks tax, insurance and NCT (all of which were fine) and asks for my licence. Asks me if my address is the one on the licence and I confirm this. He then tells me to slow down, arrive alive and not to let this ruin my weekend. Goes back to the other car and begins taking his details.

So I was caught speeding for the 1st time. Was embarrassing and will definitely slow me down in future. I admit I was in the wrong but I have a few questions:

1) Can you request proof that the speed gun used to catch you was correctly calibrated? If so how does one request this proof? Anytime I pass one of those signs with a speed readout my speedometer appears to be conservative by showing a speed slightly higher that I'm actually travelling. But in this case I appeared as if the Garda speed camera was reading higher that my speedometer. Just would like to know if my speedo is accurate or not.

2) Found it a little strange that there were able to do 2 cars for speeding in quick succession like that? As the 1st car I presume I'm fooked but the guard also did the driver behind me for speeding. Are the gaurds allowed to pull over two people like that?

Did you actually get done???

Or are you being paranoid.

slimjimmc

CiniO wrote: »

I'm too tired to look up in the statuebook, but there is a law clearly saying that speed detecting equipment doesn't need to be calibrated.

Probably also for that reason, Ireland is one of very few countries in EU, where speeding fines are not graduated (i.e. you get fined the same for being 5km/h over the limit as being 40km/h over the limit). In most countries it's different. Small fine for being 10-20 over the limit, and big fine for being fine for being 40-50 over the limit.
But without having a requirement of properly calibrated equipment, they couldn't introduce anything like that in Ireland.

ironclaw wrote: »

I would imagine to a reasonable standard as dictated by the manufacturer. However, there is a statue that says there is no onus to do this. Its on a thread here.

I don't think the law says that at all, it merely says that it is not necessary to prove the equipment was accurate. That's not quite the same as saying the equipment doesn't need to be calibrated though. It just removes any obligation on the State to provide proof of accuracy and leaves it up to the defendant to show otherwise.

visual

As an owner of a car your responsible to keep it maintained doesn't mean you repair and calibrate it. It means you check its working and has no obvious defects.

Garda says your speeding is all that is required in court
There is no obligation to prove the equipment is maintained or calibrated.

If a judge did allow that question to be asked the reply would be its maintained in accordance with garda policy.

Bottom line the equipment is beyond reproach and garda word is fact.

Your word carries no weight and you'll not be able to question the gardai training ability or equipment. The lower courts implementation of the law is swift due to volumes of cases.There just isn't the scope to rebuttal the gardai sworn statement. It might not be just but there you will stand in front of judge who probaby has a dozzen more up on same charge to get through before his morning break

househero

visual wrote: »

Bottom line the equipment is beyond reproach and garda word is fact.

That's not quite true.

If you do question if the equipment was calibrated in accordance with the guidelines, they would have to provide the supporting paperwork to show it was correctly calibrated when it was required. The OP should have questioned the guard at the side of the road regarding the equipment to provide his own ' reasonable doubt ' giving the opportunity to later requested the evidence in court. If he accepted the fine and admitted he was speeding at the time, there is no chance.

The OP has already admitted guilt in writing and he should accept the fine & points.

Nobody likes a weasel trying to get away with something. When they know they have been caught doing something they know they should not have been doing.

beer enigma

Timing of this thread is very coincidental as I've just had three different speed readings at the same time !

Driving a 2008 Santa Fe, the speedo has always read 5Kph higher than the seperate Garmin Sat nav, this evening I went past a speed notification sign.

Speedo read approx 52Kph ish, Sat nav read 47Kph and the speed sign said 49 Kph

almostover

househero wrote: »

That's not quite true.

If you do question if the equipment was calibrated in accordance with the guidelines, they would have to provide the supporting paperwork to show it was correctly calibrated when it was required. The OP should have questioned the guard at the side of the road regarding the equipment to provide his own ' reasonable doubt ' giving the opportunity to later requested the evidence in court. If he accepted the fine and admitted he was speeding at the time, there is no chance.

The OP has already admitted guilt in writing and he should accept the fine & points.

Nobody likes a weasel trying to get away with something. When they know they have been caught doing something they know they should not have been doing.

A weasel eh? I did not think of the calibration issue at the time as I was embarrassed at being pulled over. I think now my best course of action is to wait, hope that it was just a warning to scare me and if not pay the fine and move on. It seems that the Gardai do not need to provide irrefutable proof of speeding to secure a conviction, which is crazy and it goes against the 'Innocent until proven guilty' that justice is based on. I am only complaining because the system is so open to corruption when speeding fines are based on a Guard just saying 'He/She was speeding because I said so and I'm the boss'.

I think the real weasel here is the guy hiding behind his keyboard, sitting a top his high horse, pontificating to someone like me making an honest query on motor traffic law.

slimjimmc

househero wrote: »

That's not quite true.

If you do question if the equipment was calibrated in accordance with the guidelines, they would have to provide the supporting paperwork to show it was correctly calibrated when it was required. The OP should have questioned the guard at the side of the road regarding the equipment to provide his own ' reasonable doubt ' giving the opportunity to later requested the evidence in court. If he accepted the fine and admitted he was speeding at the time, there is no chance.

The OP has already admitted guilt in writing and he should accept the fine & points.

Nobody likes a weasel trying to get away with something. When they know they have been caught doing something they know they should not have been doing.

How would that work when Sect 81(1) of the Road Traffic Act 2010 states

It is not necessary to prove that the electronic or other apparatus was accurate
or in good working order.

So, as no proof is required by law then how would they be required to provide supporting paperwork?

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2010/en/act/pub/0025/sec0081.html#sec81