Speeding Questions

almostover

Right before I begin this post I have to state that I, in no way, condone speeding (i.e. spare me the lectures).

So was travelling from Cork to Galway on Saturday morning and was travelling in the outside lane of the dual carriageway between Limerick and Ennis. Girlfriend was in the front seat and she noticed 2 Gardai at the side of the road with a speed gun. Wasn't paying any particular attention to my speed at the time and it was too late to brake as there was a car right behind me. Looked down at the speedometer and was doing 105 kph ish. Thought I might be caught.

One of the Gardai beckoned with his hand for me to pull in and I pulled in 100 meters up the road in the hard shoulder. The car behind me also pulled in too. He began walking up the hard shoulder towards us. First he stops at the red Ford Focus behind me, says something to the driver and then continues onto me. Tells me I was doing 112 Kph in a 100 zone. Takes down my registration number, checks tax, insurance and NCT (all of which were fine) and asks for my licence. Asks me if my address is the one on the licence and I confirm this. He then tells me to slow down, arrive alive and not to let this ruin my weekend. Goes back to the other car and begins taking his details.

So I was caught speeding for the 1st time. Was embarrassing and will definitely slow me down in future. I admit I was in the wrong but I have a few questions:

1) Can you request proof that the speed gun used to catch you was correctly calibrated? If so how does one request this proof? Anytime I pass one of those signs with a speed readout my speedometer appears to be conservative by showing a speed slightly higher that I'm actually travelling. But in this case I appeared as if the Garda speed camera was reading higher that my speedometer. Just would like to know if my speedo is accurate or not.

2) Found it a little strange that there were able to do 2 cars for speeding in quick succession like that? As the 1st car I presume I'm fooked but the guard also did the driver behind me for speeding. Are the gaurds allowed to pull over two people like that?

xabi

I was pulled over being the 2nd car, wasn't done for it though, just a ticking off. Btw, were you overtaking at the time?

No Pants

To answer your first question, I think it has been established on here before that the speed gun does need to be proven accurate for the court to accept it. As for your second question; I don't see why not.

djimi

If the second car was travelling right up your arse then its fair to say that if you were speeding then so was he.

You can request to see the calibration on the camera Im sure, but it would involve a trip to court and the risk of double points and a higher fine. If you want to test your speedo first download a speedo app for your phone and see what it says. Chances are your speedo will read slightly higher than the app (which is perfectly normal); if the speedo is reading lower than the app then something is wrong.

lintdrummer

almostover wrote: »

1) Can you request proof that the speed gun used to catch you was correctly calibrated? If so how does one request this proof? Anytime I pass one of those signs with a speed readout my speedometer appears to be conservative by showing a speed slightly higher that I'm actually travelling. But in this case I appeared as if the Garda speed camera was reading higher that my speedometer. Just would like to know if my speedo is accurate or not.

2) Found it a little strange that there were able to do 2 cars for speeding in quick succession like that? As the 1st car I presume I'm fooked but the guard also did the driver behind me for speeding. Are the gaurds allowed to pull over two people like that?

Relax. You might not even get done for this. Particularly if you have never had any previous motoring offences. The guard did his job by scaring you into slowing down in future.
I would say that their equipment is probably more accurate than your speedo so I wouldn't go down that route of calibration.
I was caught speeding before (80 in a 60, Finglas by pass) and even though all my details were taken etc., and the guard told me I'd be fined, I never heard any more about it.

timmy4u2

It is an impossibility to detect two vehicles in very quick succession with the hand held gun due to the fact that it has to lock on, record, reset and lock on again.
It is very possible that he had you picked up from a distance and also picked up the other car from a distance.
These guns have a very long range.

almostover

Again I don't condone speeding but it seemed strange to be pulling for speeding on a dual carriageway on a Saturday morning within half a mile of where the motorway begins on a straight stretch of road. I understand that speeding is wrong and dangerous but surely there are more dangerous locations in which to deploy these speed traps?

Like I said it has been an eye opener for me and I will definitely be more mindful of my speed from now on.

corktina

the Gards have always lived on that stretch.

almostover

lintdrummer wrote: »

Relax. You might not even get done for this. Particularly if you have never had any previous motoring offences. The guard did his job by scaring you into slowing down in future.
I would say that their equipment is probably more accurate than your speedo so I wouldn't go down that route of calibration.
I was caught speeding before (80 in a 60, Finglas by pass) and even though all my details were taken etc., and the guard told me I'd be fined, I never heard any more about it.

Funny you should say that, at no stage did the guard say that I was being charged with speeding just that I was speeding. I'll just keep an eye on the post for a while and cross my fingers

_Kaiser_

If your speedo is under-reading then you should get that checked out. In general they will over-read by up to 10% depending on speed, tyres etc but never under.

112 in a 100 seems harsh to me but there ya go. The position of the trap isn't surprising though as they will be targeting people who've already sped up approaching the motorway - especially if it's the same quality of road and the signs changing from green to blue are the only real difference (I'm not familiar with the road in question so going on the description).

Were you overtaking at the time? If not you're probably lucky he didn't mention sitting in the wrong lane as well, which to me would be a bigger offence than 10km over on a motorway-grade road, but that's me. It might also explain why the other car was right behind you. If you WERE overtaking however then there could be a question as to which car the speed gun was picking up.

In any case, all you can do is wait and see if a penalty notice arrives in a few weeks (but they have up to 6 months to send it)

almostover

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

If your speedo is under-reading then you should get that checked out. In general they will over-read by up to 10% depending on speed, tyres etc but never under.

112 in a 100 seems harsh to me but there ya go. The position of the trap isn't surprising though as they will be targeting people who've already sped up approaching the motorway - especially if it's the same quality of road and the signs changing from green to blue are the only real difference (I'm not familiar with the road in question so going on the description).

Were you overtaking at the time? If not you're probably lucky he didn't mention sitting in the wrong lane as well, which to me would be a bigger offence than 10km over on a motorway-grade road, but that's me. It might also explain why the other car was right behind you. If you WERE overtaking however then there could be a question as to which car the speed gun was picking up.

In any case, all you can do is wait and see if a penalty notice arrives in a few weeks (but they have up to 6 months to send it)

I was overtaking at the time. Don't worry, nothing annoys me more than right lane hoggers!

ironclaw

timmy4u2 wrote: »

It is an impossibility to detect two vehicles in very quick succession with the hand held gun due to the fact that it has to lock on, record, reset and lock on again.
It is very possible that he had you picked up from a distance and also picked up the other car from a distance.
These guns have a very long range.

Nonsense. Its entirely possible. The 'lock on' time with the Ultralyte (The Laser gun the Garda use) is sub-1 second. Most Gardai enact a double tap procedure. That is a first read, then trigger release and then a second reading.

To answer the OPs question, a Garda can take a gun that isn't even turned on, point it at your car and tell you that you were speeding. There is no onus to prove the equipment is fully functional, calibrated or in working condition. Its a mental law and one that could only be challenged in a very high court in this country. There was a challenge in a (district) court I think as the gun cannot produce a permanent record and the case was thrown out. Nothing more came of it I believe.

The Laser gun used in this country is extremely accurate. You were most likely doing the speed he told you. The second car may have pulled in believing the Garda was beckoning him?

pa990

timmy4u2 wrote: »

It is an impossibility to detect two vehicles in very quick succession with the hand held gun due to the fact that it has to lock on, record, reset and lock on again.
It is very possible that he had you picked up from a distance and also picked up the other car from a distance.
These guns have a very long range.

Obviously you never used an LTI Ultralyte or 20:20

almostover

ironclaw wrote: »

Nonsense. Its entirely possible. The 'lock on' time with the Ultralyte (The Laser gun the Garda use) is sub-1 second. Most Gardai enact a double tap procedure. That is a first read, then trigger release and then a second reading.

To answer the OPs question, a Garda can take a gun that isn't even turned on, point it at your car and tell you that you were speeding. There is no onus to prove the equipment is fully functional, calibrated or in working condition. Its a mental law and one that could only be challenged in a very high court in this country. There was a challenge in a (district) court I think as the gun cannot produce a permanent record and the case was thrown out. Nothing more came of it I believe.

The Laser gun used in this country is extremely accurate. You were most likely doing the speed he told you. The second car may have pulled in believing the Garda was beckoning him?

That is crazy! You mean to say that the speed gun doesn't have to be a calibrated? I work as an engineer in the medical device industry and the thought of improperly calibrated equipment popped into my mind. How the hell are they supposed to get a conviction if they can't trust their equipment? I would be seriously tempted to challenge on the grounds of calibration if this is true.

Chimaera

If he just gave you a warning on the side of the road, you're probably fine. I've had that a few times and just had a polite warning to take it handy. Once you're not driving like a maniac they won't take too much notice of you being a few km/h over.

I agree that the law on calibration is insane, but to challenge it you need to take the case to court and risk the larger fine/points that go with it. My guess is that you'd only be able to get it knocked down in the High Court or Supreme Court and that's not cheap.

almostover

Chimaera wrote: »

If he just gave you a warning on the side of the road, you're probably fine. I've had that a few times and just had a polite warning to take it handy. Once you're not driving like a maniac they won't take too much notice of you being a few km/h over.

I agree that the law on calibration is insane, but to challenge it you need to take the case to court and risk the larger fine/points that go with it. My guess is that you'd only be able to get it knocked down in the High Court or Supreme Court and that's not cheap.

This country would madden you sometimes! You have to pay for justice it seems. Tbh in light of the whistleblowers scandal the AGS and the juctise need to be completely reformed. And motoring in general in this country is crying out for reform too, some fairly bonkers laws/regulations/taxes.

Micky 32

almostover wrote: »

Again I don't condone speeding but it seemed strange to be pulling for speeding on a dual carriageway on a Saturday morning within half a mile of where the motorway begins on a straight stretch of road. I understand that speeding is wrong and dangerous but surely there are more dangerous locations in which to deploy these speed traps?

Like I said it has been an eye opener for me and I will definitely be more mindful of my speed from now on.

IMO You can be 99.9% sure you'll get a ticket in the post, in answer to your question why on a long straight stretch unfortunately for most part it's all about ticket qoutas and revenue collecting. Of course no one likes to see anyone get killed on the road but the priorities are 1. Money 2. Safety. All in my opinion of course

CiniO

almostover wrote: »

1) Can you request proof that the speed gun used to catch you was correctly calibrated? If so how does one request this proof? Anytime I pass one of those signs with a speed readout my speedometer appears to be conservative by showing a speed slightly higher that I'm actually travelling. But in this case I appeared as if the Garda speed camera was reading higher that my

AFAIR no point in requesting calibration cert, as speed measuring devices don't need to be calibrated in Ireland. Garda can just make statement that someone was speeding - and that will probably suffice.

Also in other countries is not much better. You might have laws requiring calibration of speed detecting devices, but what help is that? They will surely show you one, no matter if device is properly calibrated or not.

In January I was travelling in 60km/h zone. Police was having speed check behind a hill, but as I got flashed by few drivers, I was doing exactly 60km/h and no more.
They pulled me over, and they show me their speed gun with 86km/h on it.
I said it's absolutely impossible as I was doing 60, as I knew they were here.
They checked my documents, brethylised me, and told me that it must have been their equipment misreading.
Probably fact that I had dashcam helped.

Otherwise there'd be hardly I could do.

almostover

CiniO wrote: »

AFAIR no point in requesting calibration cert, as speed measuring devices don't need to be calibrated in Ireland. Garda can just make statement that someone was speeding - and that will probably suffice.

Also in other countries is not much better. You might have laws requiring calibration of speed detecting devices, but what help is that? They will surely show you one, no matter if device is properly calibrated or not.

In January I was travelling in 60km/h zone. Police was having speed check behind a hill, but as I got flashed by few drivers, I was doing exactly 60km/h and no more.
They pulled me over, and they show me their speed gun with 86km/h on it.
I said it's absolutely impossible as I was doing 60, as I knew they were here.
They checked my documents, brethylised me, and told me that it must have been their equipment misreading.
Probably fact that I had dashcam helped.

Otherwise there'd be hardly I could do.

So the Gardai have no reliable evidence that I was doing the speed quoted to me no more so than I have no proof that I wasn't doing said speed? How do they make any speeding convictions at all without calibrated equipment? I'm seriously tempted to challenge this!!

CiniO

almostover wrote: »

So the Gardai have no reliable evidence that I was doing the speed quoted to me no more so than I have no proof that I wasn't doing said speed? How do they make any speeding convictions at all without calibrated equipment? I'm seriously tempted to challenge this!!

I'm too tired to look up in the statuebook, but there is a law clearly saying that speed detecting equipment doesn't need to be calibrated.

Probably also for that reason, Ireland is one of very few countries in EU, where speeding fines are not graduated (i.e. you get fined the same for being 5km/h over the limit as being 40km/h over the limit). In most countries it's different. Small fine for being 10-20 over the limit, and big fine for being fine for being 40-50 over the limit.
But without having a requirement of properly calibrated equipment, they couldn't introduce anything like that in Ireland.

_Kaiser_

almostover wrote: »

So the Gardai have no reliable evidence that I was doing the speed quoted to me no more so than I have no proof that I wasn't doing said speed? How do they make any speeding convictions at all without calibrated equipment? I'm seriously tempted to challenge this!!

Infortunately there's not much point in challenging it..

The system is setup to actively discourage that by handing you more points if you lose the case - which you inevitably will as the "word" of the Garda (a member of an organisation that's shown itself to be little more than an Old Boys Club for the well-connected, and an incompetent Keystone Cops brigade generally) is all that's needed to secure a conviction in most cases.

Yep, that's Irish "justice" for you - now take your 2 points and be quiet

No Pants

Just found this while looking for something else (colour and emphasis mine):

Amendment of section 81 of Act of 2010 — evidence in relation to speeding, etc.

22. The Act of 2010 is amended in section 81—

(a) by substituting for subsection (6) the following:

“(6) In proceedings for an offence referred to in subsection (1) it shall be presumed, until the contrary is shown, that—

(a) the electronic or other apparatus used for tendering of evidence was provided, maintained and operated by a member of the Garda Síochána, or a person authorised under an agreement under subsection (7),

(b) the development, production and viewing of records produced by such apparatus was carried out by a member of the Garda Síochána, or a person authorised under an agreement under subsection (7), and

(c) subsection (3) has been complied with.”,

and

(b) in subsection (9) in the definition of “member of the Garda Síochána”, by substituting “subsections (4) and (7) ” for “subsection (3) or (7) ”.

Anyone know what their definition of "maintained" is?

ironclaw

No Pants wrote: »

Anyone know what their definition of "maintained" is?

I would imagine to a reasonable standard as dictated by the manufacturer. However, there is a statue that says there is no onus to do this. Its on a thread here.

No Pants

ironclaw wrote: »

I would imagine to a reasonable standard as dictated by the manufacturer. However, there is a statue that says there is no onus to do this. Its on a thread here.

The part that I quoted was taken from the Road Traffic Act 2014, how would that work with any other statutes that contradict it?

Apologies for not including the link earlier.

househero

almostover wrote: »

Right before I begin this post I have to state that I, in no way, condone speeding (i.e. spare me the lectures).

So was travelling from Cork to Galway on Saturday morning and was travelling in the outside lane of the dual carriageway between Limerick and Ennis. Girlfriend was in the front seat and she noticed 2 Gardai at the side of the road with a speed gun. Wasn't paying any particular attention to my speed at the time and it was too late to brake as there was a car right behind me. Looked down at the speedometer and was doing 105 kph ish. Thought I might be caught.

One of the Gardai beckoned with his hand for me to pull in and I pulled in 100 meters up the road in the hard shoulder. The car behind me also pulled in too. He began walking up the hard shoulder towards us. First he stops at the red Ford Focus behind me, says something to the driver and then continues onto me. Tells me I was doing 112 Kph in a 100 zone. Takes down my registration number, checks tax, insurance and NCT (all of which were fine) and asks for my licence. Asks me if my address is the one on the licence and I confirm this. He then tells me to slow down, arrive alive and not to let this ruin my weekend. Goes back to the other car and begins taking his details.

So I was caught speeding for the 1st time. Was embarrassing and will definitely slow me down in future. I admit I was in the wrong but I have a few questions:

1) Can you request proof that the speed gun used to catch you was correctly calibrated? If so how does one request this proof? Anytime I pass one of those signs with a speed readout my speedometer appears to be conservative by showing a speed slightly higher that I'm actually travelling. But in this case I appeared as if the Garda speed camera was reading higher that my speedometer. Just would like to know if my speedo is accurate or not.

2) Found it a little strange that there were able to do 2 cars for speeding in quick succession like that? As the 1st car I presume I'm fooked but the guard also did the driver behind me for speeding. Are the gaurds allowed to pull over two people like that?

Did you actually get done???

Or are you being paranoid.

slimjimmc

CiniO wrote: »

I'm too tired to look up in the statuebook, but there is a law clearly saying that speed detecting equipment doesn't need to be calibrated.

Probably also for that reason, Ireland is one of very few countries in EU, where speeding fines are not graduated (i.e. you get fined the same for being 5km/h over the limit as being 40km/h over the limit). In most countries it's different. Small fine for being 10-20 over the limit, and big fine for being fine for being 40-50 over the limit.
But without having a requirement of properly calibrated equipment, they couldn't introduce anything like that in Ireland.

ironclaw wrote: »

I would imagine to a reasonable standard as dictated by the manufacturer. However, there is a statue that says there is no onus to do this. Its on a thread here.

I don't think the law says that at all, it merely says that it is not necessary to prove the equipment was accurate. That's not quite the same as saying the equipment doesn't need to be calibrated though. It just removes any obligation on the State to provide proof of accuracy and leaves it up to the defendant to show otherwise.

visual

As an owner of a car your responsible to keep it maintained doesn't mean you repair and calibrate it. It means you check its working and has no obvious defects.

Garda says your speeding is all that is required in court
There is no obligation to prove the equipment is maintained or calibrated.

If a judge did allow that question to be asked the reply would be its maintained in accordance with garda policy.

Bottom line the equipment is beyond reproach and garda word is fact.

Your word carries no weight and you'll not be able to question the gardai training ability or equipment. The lower courts implementation of the law is swift due to volumes of cases.There just isn't the scope to rebuttal the gardai sworn statement. It might not be just but there you will stand in front of judge who probaby has a dozzen more up on same charge to get through before his morning break

househero

visual wrote: »

Bottom line the equipment is beyond reproach and garda word is fact.

That's not quite true.

If you do question if the equipment was calibrated in accordance with the guidelines, they would have to provide the supporting paperwork to show it was correctly calibrated when it was required. The OP should have questioned the guard at the side of the road regarding the equipment to provide his own ' reasonable doubt ' giving the opportunity to later requested the evidence in court. If he accepted the fine and admitted he was speeding at the time, there is no chance.

The OP has already admitted guilt in writing and he should accept the fine & points.

Nobody likes a weasel trying to get away with something. When they know they have been caught doing something they know they should not have been doing.

beer enigma

Timing of this thread is very coincidental as I've just had three different speed readings at the same time !

Driving a 2008 Santa Fe, the speedo has always read 5Kph higher than the seperate Garmin Sat nav, this evening I went past a speed notification sign.

Speedo read approx 52Kph ish, Sat nav read 47Kph and the speed sign said 49 Kph

almostover

househero wrote: »

That's not quite true.

If you do question if the equipment was calibrated in accordance with the guidelines, they would have to provide the supporting paperwork to show it was correctly calibrated when it was required. The OP should have questioned the guard at the side of the road regarding the equipment to provide his own ' reasonable doubt ' giving the opportunity to later requested the evidence in court. If he accepted the fine and admitted he was speeding at the time, there is no chance.

The OP has already admitted guilt in writing and he should accept the fine & points.

Nobody likes a weasel trying to get away with something. When they know they have been caught doing something they know they should not have been doing.

A weasel eh? I did not think of the calibration issue at the time as I was embarrassed at being pulled over. I think now my best course of action is to wait, hope that it was just a warning to scare me and if not pay the fine and move on. It seems that the Gardai do not need to provide irrefutable proof of speeding to secure a conviction, which is crazy and it goes against the 'Innocent until proven guilty' that justice is based on. I am only complaining because the system is so open to corruption when speeding fines are based on a Guard just saying 'He/She was speeding because I said so and I'm the boss'.

I think the real weasel here is the guy hiding behind his keyboard, sitting a top his high horse, pontificating to someone like me making an honest query on motor traffic law.

slimjimmc

househero wrote: »

That's not quite true.

If you do question if the equipment was calibrated in accordance with the guidelines, they would have to provide the supporting paperwork to show it was correctly calibrated when it was required. The OP should have questioned the guard at the side of the road regarding the equipment to provide his own ' reasonable doubt ' giving the opportunity to later requested the evidence in court. If he accepted the fine and admitted he was speeding at the time, there is no chance.

The OP has already admitted guilt in writing and he should accept the fine & points.

Nobody likes a weasel trying to get away with something. When they know they have been caught doing something they know they should not have been doing.

How would that work when Sect 81(1) of the Road Traffic Act 2010 states

It is not necessary to prove that the electronic or other apparatus was accurate
or in good working order.

So, as no proof is required by law then how would they be required to provide supporting paperwork?

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2010/en/act/pub/0025/sec0081.html#sec81

visual

Sworn statement of gardai is the only thing required to prosecute. The judge will be interested in establisheding that the driver car, date and place is correct as on summons. Anything else said is irrelevant. If you get more than 5 mins in court I be surprised it certainly won't get suspended while the Gardaí is requested to run back to the station to get proof the equipment is maintained and calibrated

the only thing the Gardaí will bring with him is copy of summons and his notebook.

househero

almostover wrote: »

A weasel eh? I did not think of the calibration issue at the time as I was embarrassed at being pulled over. I think now my best course of action is to wait, hope that it was just a warning to scare me and if not pay the fine and move on. It seems that the Gardai do not need to provide irrefutable proof of speeding to secure a conviction, which is crazy and it goes against the 'Innocent until proven guilty' that justice is based on. I am only complaining because the system is so open to corruption when speeding fines are based on a Guard just saying 'He/She was speeding because I said so and I'm the boss'.

I think the real weasel here is the guy hiding behind his keyboard, sitting a top his high horse, pontificating to someone like me making an honest query on motor traffic law.

No you are wrong.

You broke the law.

You openly admitted you broke the law.

Now you are trying to sly your way out if it, it is not honest or admirable to attempt to get away with something you openly admit to. I have no empathy for you. Don't admit guilt next time.

I'm not hiding behind a computer, I am a man and I will tell to your face, YOU BROKE THE LAW, YOU ADMITTED YOU BROKE THE LAW. NOW PAY THE PENNIES AND TAKE THE POINTS.


If you were NOT speeding, fight the case in court. EU law superceeds Irish law. If you read my posts you will see I was trying to help you. The posts about equipment are incorrect.

househero

While I'm here...

From your half arsed description, You didn't get done for speeding. So lay off the drink n drugs and stop being paranoid.

They wernt holding a 'speed camera' hahaha ah the thought of the lads brandishing a 15ft pole makes me laugh. It was a radar gun and they chased you down after.

You would know if he was doing you for speeding. As he would have told you.

Dont speed next time. And think yourself very very lucky.

ironclaw

househero wrote: »

. It was a radar gun and they chased you down after.

You know nothing. Please leave and stop embarrassing yourself. You are arguing about technology and law you do not fully understand.

The OP has a right to challenge what is an unfair and unjust situation. Someone speeding or not speeding, thats for their own conscience. Buts its wrong in a democracy for a single individual using unverified equipment to be categorically right no matter the situation. There has to be stops and check balances. Its all well and good until someone who is not speeding is convicted of it. CiniO's example being a prime one.

visual

ironclaw wrote: »

You know nothing. Please leave and stop embarrassing yourself. You are arguing about technology and law you do not fully understand.

The OP has a right to challenge what is an unfair and unjust situation. Someone speeding or not speeding, thats for their own conscience. Buts its wrong in a democracy for a single individual using unverified equipment to be categorically right no matter the situation. There has to be stops and check balances. Its all well and good until someone who is not speeding is convicted of it. CiniO's example being a prime one.

while I agree with there should be checks and balances there is none it is Garda word against yours and what the garda say in court is taken as fact. I know this from my own experience.

Sitting at traffic lights waithing to turn left garda motorcyclist on road to my left.

Left turn filter comes on I proceed garda uturns and comes after me pulls me over and accuse me of breaking the lights. I told him I waited until filter light came on but all he had to say was he is traffic cor gardaí and I will have my say in court.

Judge only askes how do I plead I said not guilty your honour. Bang of hammer fine 50 euro. (No penalty points back then) that was also the same fine for the others up on similar charges for breaking lights who pleaded guilty.

There is courts the law and while we presume justice that a fairtail

there is no checks and balances if a gardai makes a mistake its your proplem.

Another time I was summon to court for failing to produce insurance tax driving licence I did produce them so it was struck out. The lady before me was in exactly the same position and when gardai said strick out on all counts the judge hit his hamner and said dismissed. The lady wasn't happy and said it was disgracful to be dragged before the courts for something she was innocent of and not receive apology. Judge gave her two options go now and be quite or wait there and be done for contemp of court.

Only a fool would believe there is justice inside court rooms. Only an idiot would believe that they really can have their say on the day.

Judges in the lower courts treat you as guilty and only deciding your punishment

so while I too would like to see checks and balances I know it won't happen.

househero

ironclaw wrote: »

You know nothing. Please leave and stop embarrassing yourself. You are arguing about technology and law you do not fully understand.

The OP has a right to challenge what is an unfair and unjust situation. Someone speeding or not speeding, thats for their own conscience. Buts its wrong in a democracy for a single individual using unverified equipment to be categorically right no matter the situation. There has to be stops and check balances. Its all well and good until someone who is not speeding is convicted of it. CiniO's example being a prime one.

What I know, is my rights. You seem upset about not knowing yours. If you are badly represented or poorly educated good luck to you. We could both be accused of the same crime, I rather my chances better than your own.

Reread 7.a and the law refers to 'radar guns' it is you sir, that is misdirected and misinformed.

The op has no right to admit guilt 'I was travelling at 105' or whatever the hell he said. And then go looking for a way out of it.

househero

almostover wrote: »

Wasn't paying any particular attention to my speed at the time and it was too late to brake as there was a car right behind me. Looked down at the speedometer and was doing 105 kph ish. Thought I might be caught.

Openly admitting guilt of the crime he may* have been accused of. *he may have just received a warning, that is not clear from his description.

FYI Guards read boards.ie

The OP goes on to explain how he was pulled over with another car, describes the incident in detail, including make colour and type of vehicle.

And then asks if he can get away with it!

No, no you can't. You just publicly admitted guilt, absolutly retarded.

The no checks and balances claim is unfounded, I have pointed out why previously. I refuse to overtly assist someone who could be so foolish. I am sure this thread will be a talking point at the station.

No Pants

almostover wrote: »

sitting a top his high horse

FFS. Mods, can we ban this phrase in the charter or something?

ironclaw

The op has no right to admit guilt 'I was travelling at 105' or whatever the hell he said. And then go looking for a way out of it.

The issue here isn't an admission of guilt or if / not the OP was speeding. I don't care. Thats for their conscience. Having been on numerous 'ball' rallies both in Europe and America, you have people doing 160mph+ on public roads. What happens when they are caught? Most admit it straight away and take the fine. However the key difference is if they wanted to fight it (irregardless of the speed) they could at least expect a decent day in court with proper checks, balances and review of the equipment (and people) used to prosecute them.

Imagine DNA in a murder investigation could just be slapped in front of the court. Its an extreme example but in that case there would be a fine tooth comb run over the evidence and the way it was collected / processed. Of course, people will say 'Its only €80 and 2 points' but still, its the principle of being potentially accused of a crime you did not commit. No one in this world will have a false allegation sit well with them.

I'm not looking for loopholes and I have no interest in getting someone off the hook, my argument is purely a Garda can point at you and say you were speeding. And there is nothing you can do about it.

Also, please leave the 'educated' remarks out of it because your syntax and context suggests someone who has little.

almostover

househero You'll be glad to know that my fixed charge penalty points notice came in the door this morning for doing 110 km/h in a 100 km/h zone. It seems pointless to challenge it as the success of my challenge will all depend on the judges decision on the day.

Is it any wonder people have no respect for the laws/policing in this country when speed measuring equipment does not need to be calibrated in order to secure a conviction? This and the blatant positioning of speed traps in areas where it is easiest to catch a large number of people for speeding irregardless of the number of accidents/fatalities that have occurred/are likely to occur in the area. Only this morning a man was killed a few miles from my home place on a national primary road where there have been numerous serious accidents and fatalities over the years. This road with the same 100km/h limit as the dual carriageway on which is was caught and which is far more dangerous. Yet I have yet to come across a Garda speed trap along this stretch of road.

I have learned 2 things from this experience:

1. Slow down on the roads.
2. Those in charge of policing/road safety and the public service in general haven't much of a clue how to enforce our road traffic laws in a way that benefits the ordinary citizen.

visual

Sorry to hear about your fine.

There is no public service in motoring
its the cash cow vs money grab.

After you pay your fine accept the points the sharks in insurance will be circling for their pound of flesh too.

Del2005

almostover wrote: »

A weasel eh? I did not think of the calibration issue at the time as I was embarrassed at being pulled over. I think now my best course of action is to wait, hope that it was just a warning to scare me and if not pay the fine and move on. It seems that the Gardai do not need to provide irrefutable proof of speeding to secure a conviction, which is crazy and it goes against the 'Innocent until proven guilty' that justice is based on. I am only complaining because the system is so open to corruption when speeding fines are based on a Guard just saying 'He/She was speeding because I said so and I'm the boss'.

I think the real weasel here is the guy hiding behind his keyboard, sitting a top his high horse, pontificating to someone like me making an honest query on motor traffic law.

Innocent till proven guilty is only for criminal justice. Motoring and civil don't presume the defendant didn't do it. And the kicker is that the EU has ruled that driving isn't a right it's a privilege so the law against self incriminating your self doesn't apply. UK motorists took the fixed charge penalty system there to the court and lost.

TheNog

almostover wrote: »

Is it any wonder people have no respect for the laws/policing in this country when speed measuring equipment does not need to be calibrated in order to secure a conviction?

Who told you the speed gun is not calibrated? It's done every 3 months. If one gets a heavy knock it will not work and go again for re-calibration.

Del2005

TheNog wrote: »

Who told you the speed gun is not calibrated? It's done every 3 months. If one gets a heavy knock it will not work and go again for re-calibration.

The statue doesn't require proof of calibration to secure a conviction, so therefore it doesn't matter if it's calibrated or not. A legal requirement for something not being required to work to secure a conviction makes a mockery of the law it's supposed to enforce.

djimi

visual wrote: »

After you pay your fine accept the points the sharks in insurance will be circling for their pound of flesh too.

Not for 2 points they wont, or even 4-6 sometimes.

TheNog

Del2005 wrote: »

A legal requirement for something not being required to work to secure a conviction makes a mockery of the law it's supposed to enforce.

What?????

Of course it works if a driver is stopped for speeding.

_Kaiser_

TheNog wrote: »

What?????

Of course it works if a driver is stopped for speeding.

Says who? With no requirement to prove it how do we know that? What about Cinio's story on the last page?

You're not going to tell me the Gardai aren't above messing with the system now after the last 6 months are you?

If there's actual evidence to support the claim then fair enough, but the idea that convictions can be secured based on the "word" of a Garda - a force which has shown itself to be unfit for purpose - is ridiculous IMO.

As far as I recall you're a Garda yourself though aren't you?

TheNog

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Says who? With no requirement to prove it how do we know that? What about Cinio's story on the last page?

You're not going to tell me the Gardai aren't above messing with the system now after the last 6 months are you?

If there's actual evidence to support the claim then fair enough, but the idea that convictions can be secured based on the "word" of a Garda - a force which has shown itself to be unfit for purpose - is ridiculous IMO.

As far as I recall you're a Garda yourself though aren't you?

Cinio's story if I'm correct says the equipment doesn't have to be calibrated which is untrue. The ultralyte has to be calibrated every 3-4 months to ensure it is working properly. From local arrangements that I see it is done. I know this because I use the speed gun regularly.

As for messing with the system well that's for public opinion. I have only commented to set Cinio's take on calibration of the equipment only. Everything else tbh is so far removed from me that I won't comment.

You suggest that a word of a Garda should not be sufficient which is not right. If that happens how long do you think the word of a civilian witness in criminal cases without any forensic evidence would stand in court?

almostover

TheNog wrote: »

Cinio's story if I'm correct says the equipment doesn't have to be calibrated which is untrue. The ultralyte has to be calibrated every 3-4 months to ensure it is working properly. From local arrangements that I see it is done. I know this because I use the speed gun regularly.

As for messing with the system well that's for public opinion. I have only commented to set Cinio's take on calibration of the equipment only. Everything else tbh is so far removed from me that I won't comment.

You suggest that a word of a Garda should not be sufficient which is not right. If that happens how long do you think the word of a civilian witness in criminal cases without any forensic evidence would stand in court?

The simple fact is that if the Gardai are convicting someone for speeding, which they determined using a speed 'gun', then proof of the calibration of that 'gun' should be provided with the fixed charge penalty notice, in my opinion.

I am paying the fine and sending off the paperwork by registered post. Have heard horror stories of people receiveing court summons because the Gardai claimed that payments got lost in the post/the payments weren't received so I want proof that I paid it in time. It's interesting that the ordinary citizen must take measures to provide proof of payment/postage of a speeding fine but the Gardai who pursued the conviction of that fined need to provide no proof at all of the crime.

Also it is completely ridiculous that there is no online facility to pay these motor traffic offence fines. This is 2014 for flip sake! The payment could be done in 2-3 minutes in front of the computer screen and would save the force thousands of man hours and Euro's in administration costs! The Gardai, along with many state bodies are still about 20-30 years behind the rest of society.

TheNog

almostover wrote: »

The simple fact is that if the Gardai are convicting someone for speeding, which they determined using a speed 'gun', then proof of the calibration of that 'gun' should be provided with the fixed charge penalty notice, in my opinion.

I am paying the fine and sending off the paperwork by registered post. Have heard horror stories of people receiveing court summons because the Gardai claimed that payments got lost in the post/the payments weren't received so I want proof that I paid it in time. It's interesting that the ordinary citizen must take measures to provide proof of payment/postage of a speeding fine but the Gardai who pursued the conviction of that fined need to provide no proof at all of the crime.

Also it is completely ridiculous that there is no online facility to pay these motor traffic offence fines. This is 2014 for flip sake! The payment could be done in 2-3 minutes in front of the computer screen and would save the force thousands of man hours and Euro's in administration costs! The Gardai, along with many state bodies are still about 20-30 years behind the rest of society.

First off a Garda does not convict anyone, that is the judges job.

Secondly the presumption the speed gun was properly calibrated at the time of alleged offence was a law brought in by government. If you want that law changed then bring it to the attention of the government/TD. To make it clear AGS enforces the law but does not create them.

Yes we have all heard of the horror stories of ppl not receiving the fixed fine in the post and ending up in court. I'm sure some are genuine cases but An Post must have a serious black hole somewhere.

As for investing in computerisation, well if want to have a look at nearly every GRA annual meeting you will see them calling for more investment. Fact is policing in this country is and always has been done on the cheap by every government. You call for more money to spent in policing then you will have the full support of AGS.