should we pay sean fitzpatricks fees?

steveone

He has some neck- the state will probably run for cover and pay up now that the stick of legal action is being waved...

keano_afc

The state probably will. He has enough dirt to bury them I'd imagine.

Aongus Von Bismarck

Yes, the state lost.

Otherwise the state can take spurious cases against anyone and bankrupt them in the process.

donegal__road

his defense barrister is brother of developer and Anglo debtor Grehan


Three top Anglo trial defence barristers share €1m





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gugleguy

Aongus Von Bismarck wrote: »

Yes, the state lost..

The Golden Circle won in this regard.

IK09

No fan of his, but why should he have to pick up the bill? He was accused of doing something, there wasnt proof to say he was guilty.

With that kind of logic, if you cant pay for a defense.....your guilty. That is not justice.

You silly sauage.

InReality

donegal__road wrote: »

his defense barrister is brother of developer and Anglo debtor Grehan


Three top Anglo trial defence barristers share €1m





.

Its gas and kinda sad at the same time. One elite group with all the connections and money.

thebaz

Aongus Von Bismarck wrote: »

Yes, the state lost.

Otherwise the state can take spurious cases against anyone and bankrupt them in the process.

so its the citizens of Irelands fault that Anglo practically bankrupt the state , and we now have had to endure 6 years of austerity , that has driven many to the grave ?

- no **** off Seanie , you have caused eneogh damage to Ireland with your bailout.

steveone

thebaz wrote: »

so its the citizens of Irelands fault that Anglo practically bankrupt the state , and we now have had to endure 6 years of austerity , that has driven many to the grave ?

- no **** off Seanie , you have caused eneogh damage to Ireland with your bailout.

Enduring austerity wouldnt be so bad if there wasn't a lava flow of money heading to the cronies,banks and people getting away scot free with almost bankrupting the state. Its despicable. Sure we might as well pay it. Its our fault.

SEPT 23 1989

I could imagine him standing there on the steps of the courthouse holding his big novelty size cheque like the charities use smiling like a Cheshire cat

AnonoBoy

I'm sending all my UPC bills for the next five years to Seanie Fitz.

Craig Doyle said I could, it's one of the new bonus features of the Horizon package.

Lenin Skynard

We absolutely should. I've a special piggy bank set aside and I've been depositing all my spare cash into it for Seanie's fees. God bless him.

Reformed Character

steveone wrote: »

He has some neck- the state will probably run for cover and pay up now that the stick of legal action is being waved...

Having been found not guilty and having his presumption of innocence maintained, why should he have to pay for a needless prosecution that was always doomed to failure?

Reformed Character

donegal__road wrote: »

his defense barrister is brother of developer and Anglo debtor Grehan


Three top Anglo trial defence barristers share €1m





.

So what?

donegal__road

upyores wrote: »

So what?

so its double-doosh for the tax payer.. we are paying a barrister to defend S. Fitz and Co. against charges for dubious lending to developers, one of whom happens to be a brother of the barrister, who owes Anglo €300 million and now that Anglo has been nationalised we, the taxpayer, are paying this also.

SEPT 23 1989

donegal__road wrote: »

so its double-doosh for the tax payer.. we are paying a barrister to defend S. Fitz and Co. against charges for dubious lending to developers, one of whom happens to be a brother of the barrister, who owes Anglo €300 million and now that Anglo has been nationalised we, the taxpayer, are paying this also.

country is a total cess pit at the so called top

tipptom

They never had a chance of convicting of this so I guess he should not have to pay when he was inevitably cleared.
Hope they have more luck with convicting him of hiding the 90m money that was borrowed and hidden with Fingers bank for each audit,some say there was nothing illegal done but I cant get my head around that.

Reformed Character

donegal__road wrote: »

so its double-doosh for the tax payer.. we are paying a barrister to defend S. Fitz and Co. against charges for dubious lending to developers, one of whom happens to be a brother of the barrister, who owes Anglo €300 million and now that Anglo has been nationalised we, the taxpayer, are paying this also.

The man was found not guilty. You appear to have missed that point.

Hootanany

But who appointed the Judge?

donegal__road

upyores wrote: »

The man was found not guilty. You appear to have missed that point.

I don't know what you mean. I didn't miss that point because if he had been found guilty, then the state wouldn't be paying his legal fees, and this thread would not have been started.

ie. it went without saying that he was found not guilty.


My point was this: as well as the state having to pay his legal fees (because he was found not guilty), the state also has to pay for the €300 million debt that his defense barrister's brother owed Anglo (of which he was CEO at one stage).

See what I mean?

SaveOurLyric

Its the mark of civilised society to help out those who fall on hard times.

Davarus Walrus

The State took a case and he was found not guilty. He's fully entitled to look for his significant fees to be paid. I mightn't have much time for Seanie's acts of largesse during the Celtic Tiger, but it would be a dark day for democracy if he wasn't able to make a claim such as this.

tayto lover

I thought he got free Legal Aid anyway.
He was accused of a crime and he won his case so he deserves to have his expenses paid. Just like we sent David Drumm a 7k tax rebate to America. It was due to him.

Davarus Walrus

tayto lover wrote: »

I thought he got free Legal Aid anyway.
He was accused of a crime and he won his case so he deserves to have his expenses paid. Just like we sent David Drumm a 7k tax rebate to America. It was due to him.

Living in a functioning democracy will often involve there being instances where personal emotions cloud judgements. There is no such thing as a utopia. As other have elucidated upon, what would stop the State taking spurious cases against citizens if there wasn't such a measure in place?

Tail Docker

Happily, he will exit the Bankruptcy process in June, and then back to business. Speed-bump, only a speedbump.

AndonHandon

Tail Docker wrote: »

Happily, he will exit the Bankruptcy process in June, and then back to business. Speed-bump, only a speedbump.

Let the boys play.

tipptom

I think during his bankruptcy that he said he only had €745 left,this surly would have made him eligble for legal aid,did he receive legal aid or does he have to show how he intended to pay his lawyers if he didn't.


How does Sean Quinn pay for 7 different high court cases with top legal representative's and still claim to be flat broke?.A decent size multi millionaire would not be able to pay the burden of these costs considering the research,investigation and court cases,the bill for correspondences letters alone must be out of most wealthy peoples means!

Reformed Character

donegal__road wrote: »

I don't know what you mean. I didn't miss that point because if he had been found guilty, then the state wouldn't be paying his legal fees, and this thread would not have been started.

ie. it went without saying that he was found not guilty.


My point was this: as well as the state having to pay his legal fees (because he was found not guilty), the state also has to pay for the €300 million debt that his defense barrister's brother owed Anglo (of which he was CEO at one stage).

See what I mean?

So you are saying we should pursue one mans character and sully it because he brother was a bollix.
Classy!

Reformed Character

Hootanany wrote: »

But who appointed the Judge?

Its unlikely that Seanie Fitz did.
Are you alleging judicial corruption?

Coat22

Of course he should have his fees paid (or at least those agreed as reasonable by the taxing master)

He was found not guilty. Should never have been tried in the first place (or at least if he was he should have been as part of the entire board of directors) and in any case what was achieved by an expensive trial which ended with 2 lads being sent for community service?

More inept public sector decisions. Pay the man’s fees and move on.

hatrickpatrick

Yes absolutely. He was found innocent in court, and the law must be applied equally in all cases - imagine what would happen if we made people pay for their own prosecutions even when found innocent? First step towards tyranny in my view.

People need to realise that the crimes for which he was tried before the court recently were not the same crimes that led to the share price collapsing. Those involved loans to himself and others which were hidden from the books through clever manipulation of dates and transfers, and will be tried next year.

While I support anyone who attacks the leniency of the sentences for his co-accused and convicted in the recent case, it would be a mistake to suggest that his verdict was a miscarriage of justice. There were many separate crimes committed at Anglo and each will be tried separately - those for which Seanie is regarded as a villain have yet to be tried.

Patience.

Son Of A Vidic

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Yes absolutely. He was found innocent in court, and the law must be applied equally in all cases - imagine what would happen if we made people pay for their own prosecutions even when found innocent? First step towards tyranny in my view.

People need to realise that the crimes for which he was tried before the court recently were not the same crimes that led to the share price collapsing. Those involved loans to himself and others which were hidden from the books through clever manipulation of dates and transfers, and will be tried next year.

While I support anyone who attacks the leniency of the sentences for his co-accused and convicted in the recent case, it would be a mistake to suggest that his verdict was a miscarriage of justice. There were many separate crimes committed at Anglo and each will be tried separately - those for which Seanie is regarded as a villain have yet to be tried.

Patience.

Your plea for patience reminds me of that old proverb which says - If you sit by the river long enough, you will see the body of your enemy float by.

But in Ireland it translates into - If we leave them waiting long enough, shure they'll all forget and we'll be grand like.

hatrickpatrick

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Your plea for patience reminds me of that old proverb which says - If you sit by the river long enough, you will see the body of your enemy float by.

But in Ireland it translates into - If we leave them waiting long enough, shure they'll all forget and we'll be grand like.

I understand your fears, and I shared them myself until a date for his trial was fixed by a judge. There's no getting out of it for him now.
TBH, I'm far more concerned about David Drumm. I fear he will in fact be the realization of your fears, in that he will be let go because it's too much effort to chase him down.

I believe Obama's justice department actually confessed to this in the cases of US bank fraud leading to the subprime crisis. When asked why no one was prosecuted, they more or less admitted that it was simply too difficult and they were too lazy to put in the effort required.

donegal__road

Reformed Character wrote: »

So you are saying we should pursue one mans character and sully it because he brother was a bollix.
Classy!

nope... I am asking this.. does the fact that Anglo's defense barrister is a brother of and Anglo bad debtor create a conflict of interest.

I called no one a bollix (classy)





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Reformed Character

donegal__road wrote: »

nope... I am asking this.. does the fact that Anglo's defense barrister is a brother of and Anglo bad debtor create a conflict of interest.

I called no one a bollix (classy)



.

There is no conflict of interest. And he was not "Anglos" defence barrister he was Sean Fitzpatricks defence counsel.
How you get to conflict of interest is beyond belief.
BTW I never said you called anyone a bollix, that was my description of the developer.

tritium

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

People need to realise that the crimes for which he was tried before the court recently were not the same crimes that led to the share price collapsing. Those involved loans to himself and others which were hidden from the books through clever manipulation of dates and transfers, and will be tried next year.


Patience.

Not entirely true, the crimes he was charged with were essentially to prop up the share price that was facing a run against it by speculators who had gotten wind of the size and nature of Quinns stake.

But yes of course his fees should be paid

BenEadir

Of course his fees should be paid, why should the country discriminate against him Vs others who are prosecuted and found innocent?

Sinister Pigeon

Ah sure we might as well pay Seanie's fees - we've nearly come full circle as a people anyway if you look at the number of people that just voted for the political party that brought us to our knees.

Quite a few of the guests of the ubiquitous Galway Tent are retained by Nama as consultants and are being payed multiples of the average industrial wage.

BenEadir

Sinister Pigeon wrote: »

Quite a few of the guests of the ubiquitous Galway Tent are retained by Nama as consultants and are being payed multiples of the average industrial wage.

What has the wages of the "average industrial worker" got to do with an innocent defendant having his legal fees repaid or for that matter what specialist expert consultants get paid?

tipptom

Coat22 wrote: »

Of course he should have his fees paid (or at least those agreed as reasonable by the taxing master)

He was found not guilty. Should never have been tried in the first place (or at least if he was he should have been as part of the entire board of directors) and in any case what was achieved by an expensive trial which ended with 2 lads being sent for community service?

More inept public sector decisions. Pay the man’s fees and move on.

I do think the trial should have went ahead as two people were found guilty,if they were sent to prison people would be saying someone was held accountable and justice was served,the only problem now is the judge seems to think ignorance is a defence and gave out lenient sentances which would get you short shrift in a normal court as a company director of a small struggling company no matter what advice you recieved.
I think that David Drumm offered a very good deal to give up his pension in the future and any other assets to pay back his debts a few years back and a deal should have been struck with him to be given immunity to come back and give full and complete honest disclosure on any dealings with Cowen and the government,regulaters and other departments and individuals and it would have done the state some service,and then there could be proper trials for the top people involved in this.

Coat22

Ok so 2 people were found guilty of breach of section 60 of the company’s act or whatever it was but as seen by the sentencing (and the judge was right imo – they asked for and were given legal advice) its not exactly a crime that’s considered big in this country.

Nobody has asked the question as to why it is nobody has been tried to fraudulent trading etc – maybe it’s a case that it simply didn’t happen. That actually Anglo were just a victim of circumstances beyond their control with the collapse of the market. Shudder the thought the nasty bankers weren’t actually to blame after all. And it would be right – the main culprits here are the local and European regulators who let the thing get so bloody big that when it did collapse it took down a country. The failing isn’t the issue here – it’s the size of the failure.

Also it rankles me that nobody is charged with misleading the regulator. Sure they were the most inept people ever to be in charge of anything since the good people of Troy decided “lets open the gate – sure whats the worst that can happen?” but they were plainly misled – there are even telephone recordings in the public domain of the misleading! If I lie on my tax return or census form it’s a crime and I know similar warnings are contained on central bank submissions so why not go after this?

And finally there are the professional bodies. E&Y and MOPs seem to be getting away scot free. Arthur Anderson collapsed after the Enron affair but E&Y have actually managed (like the rest of the Big 4) to make a killing out of the banking collapse. Seems like the DPP is afraid to go after the international culprits but sticks with the populist villans.

hatrickpatrick

tritium wrote: »

Not entirely true, the crimes he was charged with were essentially to prop up the share price that was facing a run against it by speculators who had gotten wind of the size and nature of Quinns stake.

But yes of course his fees should be paid

Sure, but the biggest scandal at the time which rocked the share price more than others (as I remember, sadly ring a shareholder at the time) was the loans to directors scandal. That's the one which is coming up next year. If covictions emerge from that case and no custodial sentences result from them, then it will indeed be time to riot.

eigrod

Poor mite has to cough up himself

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0623/625951-sean-fitzpatrick-legal-costs/

tipptom

eigrod wrote: »

Poor mite has to cough up himself

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0623/625951-sean-fitzpatrick-legal-costs/

Oh dear,the wife is going to have to help Seanie with the fees because according to Seanie he has no money left.

Son Of A Vidic

steveone wrote: »

should we pay sean fitzpatricks fees?

Funeral fees? Absolutely.

Reformed Character

tipptom wrote: »

Oh dear,the wife is going to have to help Seanie with the fees because according to Seanie he has no money left.

No she wont, he is an undischarged bankrupt so the lawyers will just have to try their luck with the Official Assignee like everyone else.

michael999999

tipptom wrote: »

Oh dear,the wife is going to have to help Seanie with the fees because according to Seanie he has no money left.

Nope. I think I read a few weeks ago that DOB paid he's legal fees.

The prosecution actually questioned whether seanie had paid any of he's legal fees himself. The judge mentioned it aswell!