Traffic light sequence

Pat Custard

I started a thread earlier on another aspect of traffic lights, please merge if you see fit.

I work in NI and I live in the Republic.

Why is it that Irish traffic lights go Green, Orange, Red and then back to Green?

Why can't they go Orange-Red before Green like in the UK?

It's a much more logical sequence and I find people are more prepared to move off on time and it saves time. If the lights change every 30 seconds, and it saves even 3 seconds per change from the drivers being prepared, it could save several minutes over the course of a morning rush-hour.

Maybe I'm wrong and open to hearing other people's views.

Is it too late to introduce this to the 26 counties? Are people set in their ways? Or would everyone just rev up and sail through the junction when it is orange-red and you'd have some other bellend coming through the other junction on an orange :P

What does everyone think?

djimi

No

That would make far too much sense to be introduced down here.

That same goes for turning left on a red light. Little things that could make motoring so much easier. Too bad all the powers that be care about is stopping people from speeding.

punisher5112

No

If that were to be introduced here car's would take off on the orange it basically just wouldn't work here as car's would be crashing everywhere.

It is a great system and I would like to see it but I don't see it happening.

djimi

No

punisher5112 wrote: »

If that were to be introduced here car's would take off on the orange it basically just wouldn't work here as car's would be crashing everywhere.

It is a great system and I would like to see it but I don't see it happening.

The sequence is green - orange - red - red & orange - green is it not? I dont think anyone would be taking off on orange if the red light is still showing (well, nobody who wouldnt break a red light anyway).

Zcott

Being from NI, this is one the things I notice when I'm down (the other being the flashing amber light at certain junctions. Does that mean just go if it's clear?)

It makes sense also because if you're glancing at the light you know whether it's about to go red or green, where red and yellow means about to go green, and yellow means about to go red.

wil

Try a Dublin pedestrian crossing and see why it wouldn't work here.

Not sure how many drivers here know the rules of the road, not many, but as most are not really enforced, they tend to make up their own, in their own interest, which then becomes defacto behaviour.

Jesus.

Disagree. I think the way we have it here is the better way. Offtimes in life, simple things can be overcomplicated.

Its perfect the way it is.

Pat Custard

No

Zcott wrote: »

Being from NI, this is one the things I notice when I'm down (the other being the flashing amber light at certain junctions. Does that mean just go if it's clear?)

It makes sense also because if you're glancing at the light you know whether it's about to go red or green, where red and yellow means about to go green, and yellow means about to go red.

Yes, flashing amber means go if the way is clear.

Usually appears at pedestrian crossings when the man is orange and there may or may not be pedestrians still on the road crossing.

djimi

No

Jesus. wrote: »

Disagree. I think the way we have it here is the better way. Offtimes in life, simple things can be overcomplicated.

Its perfect the way it is.

How is it perfect that way it is and how does it over complicate it? The orange light gives you a couple of seconds to engage gear and prepare to pull off, meaning youre not sitting in a queue at a green light waiting for the plank at the top of the queue to wake up and go. Its a small change that would make a huge difference.

wil

Pat Custard wrote: »

Yes, flashing amber means go if the way is clear.

Usually appears at pedestrian crossings when the man is orange and there may or may not be pedestrians still on the road crossing.

and now taken as don't dare step on the crossing.:eek:

Completely abused by motorists to the extent it should no longer exist.

Would be far safer for pedestrians. Many motorists don't even bother to check if anyone is about to step on the crossing, they immediately step on the accelerator soon as the amber flashes.

djimi

To me, the UK system seems more logical so I wouldn't have a problem implementing it here.

djimi wrote: »

The sequence is green - orange - red - red & orange - green is it not? I dont think anyone would be taking off on orange if the red light is still showing (well, nobody who wouldnt break a red light anyway).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTGX_4u90dg

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

No

between midnight and 6am i'd like to see only flashing amber lights from all traffic lights.

bollox to sitting at a light in a deserted area/town/city @ 3am for 1 - 4 mins waiting for the light to change (well, supposed to be waiting for it to change)

dgt

No

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

between midnight and 6am i'd like to see only flashing amber lights from all traffic lights.

bollox to sitting at a light in a deserted area/town/city @ 3am for 1 - 4 mins waiting for the light to change (well, supposed to be waiting for it to change)

Pecks lane to the M50 interchange at 3am is a complete bollox as usually there's only one or 2 cars going by and no one coming the other way.... So naturally they get the lights first :rolleyes:

dar83

OSI wrote: »

The entire country isn't completely empty between 12am and 6am.

I can only imagine the carnage caused in Dublin at 3:30am when everyone is in their taxi wanting to get home from he city centre.

whomitconcerns

No

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

between midnight and 6am i'd like to see only flashing amber lights from all traffic lights.

bollox to sitting at a light in a deserted area/town/city @ 3am for 1 - 4 mins waiting for the light to change (well, supposed to be waiting for it to change)

Well it works in most of eastern Europe..

keithclancy

Same system on the lights here in NL as in Ireland

Green, Amber, Red and then straight back to green.

When approaching a red light that's changed to Amber people would just sail through it anyway.

corktina

Red+amber still means stop. I can't see introducing it would make any difference except to causing a lot of unnecessary expense converting existing lights

djimi

No

corktina wrote: »

Red+amber still means stop. I can't see introducing it would make any difference except to causing a lot of unnecessary expense converting existing lights

The idea is that its supposed to give the cars at the top of the queue a couple of seconds to get themselves in gear before the lights turn green, which should have the effect of making traffic move more quickly and smoothly. Whether it would work in Ireland I dont know, but as far as Im concerned it is absolutely something that should be introduced; worst case scenario it would be no worse than it is now, but its not unreasonable to expect it to improve things somewhat.

djimi

No

keithclancy wrote: »

When approaching a red light that's changed to Amber people would just sail through it anyway.

The red light doesnt change; it stays red, with an amber light also. Sail through it and you are still sailing through a red light; I really dont think too many people would be that stupid (certainly no more than the amount of morons who break red lights currently).

keithclancy

djimi wrote: »

The red light doesnt change; it stays red, with an amber light also. Sail through it and you are still sailing through a red light; I really dont think too many people would be that stupid (certainly no more than the amount of morons who break red lights currently).

In that case it doesn't add any value.

Caliden

No

God yes.

There's no excuse for not being ready to go if you're the first car.

djimi

No

keithclancy wrote: »

In that case it doesn't add any value.

In what way does it not add value. You are informing people that the lights are about to change. The idea behind it is to reduce the delay in cars taking off when the lights turn green. How is this not a good or worthwhile thing to do?

keithclancy

djimi wrote: »

In what way does it not add value. You are informing people that the lights are about to change. The idea behind it is to reduce the delay in cars taking off when the lights turn green. How is this not a good or worthwhile thing to do?

The effect is merely psychological, the timing of the lights with Amber + Green would be the same as the timing of the lights with just Green, the Amber just becomes the Green.

I can see the point on a race track but not really on a public road.

Amber when stopping is different as you are giving people advanced warning that the lights are about to turn red so they have time to adjust their speed and stop in a safe way.

On top of that you are greatly increasing the energy usage across all the traffic lights across the country since you require energy to power 2 lights instead of only one.

cython

keithclancy wrote: »

The effect is merely psychological, the timing of the lights with Amber + Green would be the same as the timing of the lights with just Green, the Amber just becomes the Green.

I can see the point on a race track but not really on a public road.

The timing of the lights themselves would be the same, but the "usable time" (for want of a better term) of a green would potentially be increased by facilitating people being ready to go as soon as the lights go green. Potentially very useful at busy junctions with many entrances and thus long cycles for lights. See any junctions where more than one cycle of lights in free-flowing traffic may often be required to get through as an example.

keithclancy wrote: »

Amber when stopping is different as you are giving people advanced warning that the lights are about to turn red so they have time to adjust their speed and stop in a safe way.

And there's an argument to give people notice to get their car in gear too, and not just on a race track. At this stage many drivers already attempt to achieve a similar effect at junctions they know by observing lights from other roads, which is prone to leave them unnecessarily wearing clutches, etc. and risking jumping a light, so give them clear notifications and that should be reduced (the actuality with Irish drivers may be quite a bit different, of course)

keithclancy wrote: »

On top of that you are greatly increasing the energy usage across all the traffic lights across the country since you require energy to power 2 lights instead of only one.

Now this is a complete and utter hyperbolic cop out. You are lighting an extra bulb for sum total of a couple of seconds per cycle. It's not a suggestion to add green and orange as the normal go cycle or anything, after all.

djimi

No

keithclancy wrote: »

The effect is merely psychological, the timing of the lights with Amber + Green would be the same as the timing of the lights with just Green, the Amber just becomes the Green.

I can see the point on a race track but not really on a public road.

Amber when stopping is different as you are giving people advanced warning that the lights are about to turn red so they have time to adjust their speed and stop in a safe way.

On top of that you are greatly increasing the energy usage across all the traffic lights across the country since you require energy to power 2 lights instead of only one.

Im not really sure that you understand the concept. It basically means that instead of a light being red for say 45 seconds and then turning green, it would now stay red for 45 seconds and for the last 5 seconds the amber light would also light, before they both go out and change to green. It gives people a few seconds to get themselves ready to take off when the lights turn green. The sequence itself doesnt change; its just an advance warning.

If you have ever sat behind some muppet for 10 seconds while they try and put the car in gear and take off after the lights have turned green then youll know exactly why its necessary; Id say it happens to me at least once every single day.

And Im fairly sure that a few extra seconds of amber light is not going to cripple the country...

keithclancy

cython wrote: »

The timing of the lights themselves would be the same, but the "usable time" (for want of a better term) of a green would potentially be increased by facilitating people being ready to go as soon as the lights go green. Potentially very useful at busy junctions with many entrances and thus long cycles for lights. See any junctions where more than one cycle of lights in free-flowing traffic may often be required to get through as an example.

I had this discussion 2 years ago with a guy that is responsible for managing the Road Traffic Management system in and around the Hague. According to him Amber before green thing made no difference to the overall traffic flow in a City and the effect was purely psychological, i.e. it just made the person think they had saved time.

And there's an argument to give people notice to get their car in gear too, and not just on a race track. At this stage many drivers already attempt to achieve a similar effect at junctions they know by observing lights from other roads, which is prone to leave them unnecessarily wearing clutches, etc. and risking jumping a light, so give them clear notifications and that should be reduced (the actuality with Irish drivers may be quite a bit different, of course)

Your indication for that is the light turning green.

Now this is a complete and utter hyperbolic cop out. You are lighting an extra bulb for sum total of a couple of seconds per cycle. It's not a suggestion to add green and orange as the normal go cycle or anything, after all.

Everything adds up, if you multiple that few seconds, not saying it is a probably, merely pointing out that it is the case.

djimi

No

keithclancy wrote: »

Your indication for that is the light turning green.

In the time that it takes people to react to green, two more cars could have gotten through the lights. It all adds up.

cython

keithclancy wrote: »

I had this discussion 2 years ago with a guy that is responsible for managing the Road Traffic Management system in and around the Hague. According to him Amber before green thing made no difference to the overall traffic flow in a City and the effect was purely psychological, i.e. it just made the person think they had saved time.

Well based on plenty of the Irish drivers I have seen, there is evidence to suggest it would improve things. Not everything translates directly from European drivers to here, as taught wisdom and habits alone can differ enough to skew it. Without some actual source or empirical and data-driven evidence (e.g. the same junction with both sequences) my anecdotal evidence is equally valid to your post above.

keithclancy wrote: »

Your indication for that is the light turning green.

djimi wrote: »

In the time that it takes people to react to green, two more cars could have gotten through the lights. It all adds up.

This, especially seeing as you tried to make the very same argument yourself:

keithclancy wrote: »

Everything adds up, if you multiple that few seconds, not saying it is a probably, merely pointing out that it is the case.

On the subject of which, your post suggested it as more than a probably:

keithclancy wrote: »

On top of that you are greatly increasing the energy usage across all the traffic lights across the country since you require energy to power 2 lights instead of only one.

There is nothing in the above to suggest that you regard this as anything but a certainty that this will be "greatly increased"

keithclancy

cython wrote: »

Well based on plenty of the Irish drivers I have seen, there is evidence to suggest it would improve things. Not everything translates directly from European drivers to here, as taught wisdom and habits alone can differ enough to skew it. Without some actual source or empirical and data-driven evidence (e.g. the same junction with both sequences) my anecdotal evidence is equally valid to your post above.


This, especially seeing as you tried to make the very same argument yourself:
On the subject of which, your post suggested it as more than a probably:
There is nothing in the above to suggest that you regard this as anything but a certainty that this will be "greatly increased"

Energy usage is fixed .. Traffic flow depends on other multiple factors.

E.G. I would see a Green Wave system or variable speed limits improving traffic flow.

But I do not see how an extra light in the sequence before taking off would improve things .... if it did I'm sure they would have done here already.

djimi

No

keithclancy wrote: »

But I do not see how an extra light in the sequence before taking off would improve things .... if it did I'm sure they would have done here already.

I have driven in the UK where they have this system is in place and I have seen it first hand making a difference. It might only be a small difference, but its noticeable how much quicker traffic takes off from lights compared to over here.

Dont ever give this country the credit that if something made sense then we would be doing it by now; thats a very wild and very inaccruate assumption... :pac:

keithclancy

djimi wrote: »

I have driven in the UK where they have this system is in place and I have seen it first hand making a difference. It might only be a small difference, but its noticeable how much quicker traffic takes off from lights compared to over here.

Dont ever give this country the credit that if something made sense then we would be doing it by now; thats a very wild and very inaccruate assumption... :pac:

Here being the Netherlands, not Ireland.

To be honest I would not really take the UK as a good example.

Over here they look at everything from a strategic perspective, hence I'm sure if it was a good idea they would have done it already.

http://web.pdx.edu/~bertini/pdf/TrafficQuest_Future_of_Traffic_Management.pdf

djimi

No

Im using the UK as an example because its where I have seen the system working first hand.

Anyway, whether its a good idea and whether its practical to change to it (or indeed worth the expense) are two separate questions. In my head its how all lights should operate. Im guessing the reason that Ireland and Holland havent implemented it is because they dont see the expense of changing as being worth it.

hoodie6029

I voted no. I'd much prefer that money for this would be spent on cameras to catch red light jumpers.

You would have to trial red/amber here to see if it works at improving flow.

TBH if I was in charge of traffic management red/amber would be a long way down my list.

blastman

No

Based on my experience of driving in both, the addition of a red-amber stage would definitely not make matters worse and would most likely improve traffic flow, expecially at large junctions where traffic is held for a longer time and it isn't easy to see the other lights change. Although most Irish drivers seem not to do it, at many junctions it is possible for the first driver to see the other lights and know they are changing to red, thus they can use this time to get in gear and get ready to go. The red-amber means that everyone at the junction can see the change is imminent and get ready to go as efficiently as possible, thus potentially allowing more cars through per cycle. I can't see how this isn't a good idea.

As an added bonus, blowing the dozy fecker at the head of the queue who has fallen asleep out of it is now permissible as soon as the green is visible.

Pat Custard

No

There wouldn't really be any money involved as such .. you are not adding lights or bulbs .. you are changing a sequence ... is it not just like flipping a switch on your Christmas fairy lights to change the sequence?

Although this being Ireland, changing the sequence in your 26 counties should only cost a million but would end up costing 50 million. We need those consultants you know.

Idbatterim

No

yeah I am in the uk once a month and I think it works far better, you can get X% more cars through a junction at each rotation, would be great if they did it here. The roads are going back to the manic levels of years ago...

Saint Sonner

I don't know whether anyone has touched on this but traffic lights have been a bee in my bonnet since moving to work in Dublin from NI recently.

1. They must all be timed and not sensored which is so frustrating and time consuming. In NI if you were to drive through a town at any time the lights will gauge the flow of the traffic at any time of the day and turn lights green when necessary at a junction. Happens more so at night driving through a town when no ones around however does happen at busy times too when there is a break in the traffic at certain junctions.
I don't know how much time I've wasted sitting at lights for minutes on end when I can see there is nothing coming anywhere else.

2. Some of the light positions are ridiculous for the person at the front of the cue to be able to see when they change.

NI Traffic system is ALOT better than ROI.

djimi

No

Most lights I drive through regularly nowadays in towns are sensored to be fair. Its pretty rare now that you would be sitting at a set of traffic lights int the middle of the night alone and be waiting for more than a few seconds. Some of the major ones are still timed (Newlands Cross etc), but I suppose they are always going to be.

Saint Sonner

I must be unlucky because I seem to be hitting all the ones that are timed!!! >:(

I imagine people would either take off on red/orange, or look at it and see "still not green" and go back to dawdling

Idbatterim

No

its not orange though, it is red, its just giving you a heads up that its about to green... How many times have I said this, I am in Uk once or twice a month, have been for nearly 2 years, it clearly works far better than what we have here, the traffic takes off a lot quicker...

visual

Saint Sonner wrote: »

I don't know whether anyone has touched on this but traffic lights have been a bee in my bonnet since moving to work in Dublin from NI recently.

1. They must all be timed and not sensored which is so frustrating and time consuming. In NI if you were to drive through a town at any time the lights will gauge the flow of the traffic at any time of the day and turn lights green when necessary at a junction. Happens more so at night driving through a town when no ones around however does happen at busy times too when there is a break in the traffic at certain junctions.
I don't know how much time I've wasted sitting at lights for minutes on end when I can see there is nothing coming anywhere else.

2. Some of the light positions are ridiculous for the person at the front of the cue to be able to see when they change.

NI Traffic system is ALOT better than ROI.

Traffic management in dublin is done to discourage you driving. Same way they have narrowed roads and extended foot paths and put speed ramps ever where. Reduced parking and what little parking there is is charged for.

Unfortunately cars are treated as evil device.

Its only a matter of time before they impose congestion charges.

But it didn't have to be that way. They could have used smart technology to speed up the flow of traffic in and out of the city. Removed tolls as there is already a high motor tax. Raise the luas above the roads but short sighted view was restrict cars and charge those who do use their cars as much as possible.

For the reasons ive listed I don't think there is the willingness to change traffic lights to be smarter more efficient.

Chris_Heilong

The red light should flash 5 seconds before changing as having 2 amber lights could confuse Irish people who are used to driving through amber.

Esel

I am amazed at the number of drivers who are ignorant of the common sensor grid and stop past it. Taxi drivers especially - even with no passengers aboard...

djimi

No

Esel wrote: »

I am amazed at the number of drivers who are ignorant of the common sensor grid and stop past it. Taxi drivers especially - even with no passengers aboard...

Happens at least once a week to me on my way home from work. There is a set of busy lights with a right hand filter lane where the light does not change unless the person at the top of the queue move into the sensor box. Without fail, at least once a week some moron will sit there staring gormlessly at about three green to red lights before it crosses their pathetic little mind that maybe they need to move up onto the sensor... :mad:

Esel

djimi wrote: »

Happens at least once a week to me on my way home from work. There is a set of busy lights with a right hand filter lane where the light does not change unless the person at the top of the queue move into the sensor box. Without fail, at least once a week some moron will sit there staring gormlessly at about three green to red lights before it crosses their pathetic little mind that maybe they need to move up onto the sensor... :mad:

Mainly, though, the moron has to move backwards to be on the grid... or else just move forwards a bit so the vehicle behind can straddle the sensor.

Sometimes, when I am the only car, I find that I have to jockey back and forth a bit before the magic happens.

Anyone remember using a flat tin can to trip the out-gate of a key-controlled car park to trip the barrier so you could drive in?

Btw, if on a motorcycle, a good tip is to cable-tie a strong magnet (think inside the dead hard-disk box) underneath the engine/frame.

Tldr: You can't teach a pig to sing. You can try, but no (=never..) cigar.

On the OP: Good idea, but as it is NIH it will never happen.

Del2005

From my few trips in England the amber and red just had cars moving off before green at a lot of junctions, as I was on a bike I was nearly always at the head of the queue:). The same in Ireland would lead to carnage due to the amount of people who now drive through solid reds, as opposed to the slightly red just after amber has gone off.

What we need is for drivers to pay more attention to the road, I look at the other lights or oncoming cars dipping to be ready to go, and not introduce more things that reduces their brain usage to zero.

Esel wrote: »

Btw, if on a motorcycle, a good tip is to cable-tie a strong magnet (think inside the dead hard-disk box) underneath the engine/frame.

That doesn't always work, we should have what some US states and you can go on red after 5 minutes

keithclancy

Esel wrote: »

I am amazed at the number of drivers who are ignorant of the common sensor grid and stop past it. Taxi drivers especially - even with no passengers aboard...

Never understood why they didn't use the overhead proximity sensors rather than spend all that money on ones thats in the road

AndyBoBandy

I've driven all over the world, including a lot in the U.K.

Their system of amber before green works so well because when they are driving, and a set of traffic lights ahead go from green to amber, they all tend to slow down and stop a lot sooner than I see happening in Ireland.

How often do you get a set of green lights nowadays in Dublin, while waiting at the front of the queue, and as you set off, there's still a car or 2 in front of you blasting through the junction from the other direction? If we were setting off 1/2 seconds earlier it could get ugly.

U.K. - Green to Amber = Slow down & stop
Ireland - Green to Amber = Speed up.

not everyone does it of course, but there ARE idiots out there.

Also regarding Left on Red. It's a must. One of the most logical rules of the road I've ever seen.

I've driven with that system in both America & Lithuania (right on red in those cases), and it saves so much time waiting at timed lights.
a road is empty, pull onto it if there is no traffic coming. obviously it won't apply to all junctions, but those that are safe enough that happen to be timed.

visual

We have a few junctions that allow left turn when main lights are red they have a flashing amber filter light.

There is a junction near me and the filter to the left is only red if pedestrians are crossing other wise its green or flashing amber.

lau1247

No

i think the UK system works fairly well overall.. definitely will be an improvement over what irish system currently..

One better suggestion which no one seemed to have suggested is a timed traffic light. There will be no ambiguity as to when to stop or when to go. Everyone should be able to judge their stopping and starting situation accordingly..

Often I see people driving along and the light turned (Without warning), they may like to stop but feel dangerous to do so (due to speed, road condition etc), therefore opted to keep going (The ones you see hitting breaks and then speed up)

Having this system will eliminate that. Sure it will cost a good bit initially but i think overall it will improve driving and cause less accident from people running red light. Much prefer to see that change happening than RSA spending stupid money on those TV adverts.