how can any young farmer consider getting married in 2014

miles_away

the risk of being taken to the cleaners and having your hard earned assets split in half is very high

are the IFA not pushing for pre nuptial legislation , as far as i know their is no pre nup arrangement system in this country

Taxburden carrier

There's more to life than "hard earned assets".

Muckit

miles_away wrote: »

the risk of being taken to the cleaners and having your hard earned assets split in half is very high

are the IFA not pushing for pre nuptial legislation , as far as i know their is no pre nup arrangement system in this country

Is it not the same for any couple whether you're farming or not?

You shouldn't get married if you're thinking like that.

MayoSalmon

Jaysis best of luck to your poor wife

frazzledhome

Muckit wrote: »

Is it not the same for any couple whether you're farming or not?

You shouldn't get married if you're thinking like that.

I don't think that's fair. In a lot of cases the farm has passed from generation to generation. A prenup would give the older generation great comfort transferring.

The value of the land while actually only a tool box makes marriage break down very expensive.

mahoney_j

miles_away wrote: »

the risk of being taken to the cleaners and having your hard earned assets split in half is very high

are the IFA not pushing for pre nuptial legislation , as far as i know their is no pre nup arrangement system in this country

Jaysus if that's what's bothering u if intending on getting married there ain't much hope for u.much more to life than land and farming.od much prefer to be married to a female than land .as for pre nups if looking for one of them then that's some start to married life .can sort of see ur point though !

Kovu

If someone were to ask me for a pre-nup, I would seriously reconsider the marriage.

"Oh I love you darling, by the way can you sign this, just in case I won't love you in ten years time"

jaymla627

mahoney_j wrote: »

Jaysus if that's what's bothering u if intending on getting married there ain't much hope for u.much more to life than land and farming.od much prefer to be married to a female than land .as for pre nups if looking for one of them then that's some start to married life .can sort of see ur point though !

Its a very valid point though; locally 5 lads are/our have got took to the cleaners here lately resulting in the sale of farms/cattle etc...the funniest/worst one was where the wife converted over to the otherside with the local female vet:rolleyes:

Dr Turk Turkelton

jaymla627 wrote: »

Its a very valid point though; locally 5 lads are/our have got took to the cleaners here lately resulting in the sale of farms/cattle etc...the funniest/worst one was where the wife converted over to the otherside with the local female vet:rolleyes:

She became a protestant?

jaymla627

Dr Turk Turkelton wrote: »

She became a protestant?

Nope she started eating rugg so to speak:D the funny thing was their was kids involved and all

hfallada

Muckit wrote: »

Is it not the same for any couple whether you're farming or not?

You shouldn't get married if you're thinking like that.

Something like 17% of marriages end in divorce in Ireland. The person you marry in 2014, can turn out to be a totally different person 15 years later. Something which is impossible to predict and if you divorce them you lose half of the asset your family built for hundreds of years. Marriage at the end of the day is a contract between 2 people and one party should be able to protect their assets. Like someone is able to protect themselves from their firms debt through a limited liability company

Timmaay

jaymla627 wrote: »

Its a very valid point though; locally 5 lads are/our have got took to the cleaners here lately resulting in the sale of farms/cattle etc...the funniest/worst one was where the wife converted over to the otherside with the local female vet:rolleyes:

Was it the "wife camera" that let the cat outa the bag there? :P

miles_away

Muckit wrote: »

Is it not the same for any couple whether you're farming or not?

You shouldn't get married if you're thinking like that.

i never would , farmers in the main have a lot more assets than most people

tanko

Timmaay wrote: »

Was it the "wife camera" that let the cat outa the bag there? :P

Have you got a "wife camera"?:D

miles_away

.Kovu. wrote: »

If someone were to ask me for a pre-nup, I would seriously reconsider the marriage.

"Oh I love you darling, by the way can you sign this, just in case I won't love you in ten years time"

im in a relationship but if she walked away due to the fact that i wanted a pre nup , it would prove she wasnt for me

Reggie.

.Kovu. wrote: »

If someone were to ask me for a pre-nup, I would seriously reconsider the marriage.

"Oh I love you darling, by the way can you sign this, just in case I won't love you in ten years time"

Oh I was tempted to say something but know better to take on a mod with banning buttons

moy83

A prenup could make for a very long engagement ! Without a prenup is there any way of avoiding getting the farm involved in a divorce . Like transferring it to siblings or parents early in the split ?

miles_away

hfallada wrote: »

Something like 17% of marriages end in divorce in Ireland. The person you marry in 2014, can turn out to be a totally different person 15 years later. Something which is impossible to predict and if you divorce them you lose half of the asset your family built for hundreds of years. Marriage at the end of the day is a contract between 2 people and one party should be able to protect their assets. Like someone is able to protect themselves from their firms debt through a limited liability company

yes and in most cases , their is an imbalance between the partners in terms of wealth so one side stands to increase their wealth substantially in the event of a break up while the other stands to become much poorer

long ago women would be shamed by the church ( i dont believe that was right btw ) if they tried to leave , the pendelum has now completely swung the other way and not only are the courts totally biased against the man , any woman who fleeces her partner is lauded as a feminist and independant woman

Sam Kade

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Jaysis best of luck to your poor wife

Or rich ex wife

Kovu

Reggie. wrote: »

Oh I was tempted to say something but know better to take on a mod with banning buttons

Was it along the lines of...who'd ever marry you?

miles_away I can see your pov, I guess it is a little tricky when you consider what ifs and people changing as they grow older.

I don't think I'd have the heart to take half of a mans farm. If it gets to that, is it not easier on both to walk away with some dignity and self respect.

the_syco

frazzledhome wrote: »

A prenup would give the older generation great comfort transferring.

A prenup ain't worth the paper it's written on in Ireland. It is NOT recognized in the Irish court of law.

miles_away

.Kovu. wrote: »

Was it along the lines of...who'd ever marry you?

miles_away I can see your pov, I guess it is a little tricky when you consider what ifs and people changing as they grow older.

I don't think I'd have the heart to take half of a mans farm. If it gets to that, is it not easier on both to walk away with some dignity and self respect.

women nowadays are encouraged to grab all they can , i think unless you are hard headed about these things , you will end up very poor , love is grand but security is more important

Mad4simmental

Iv seen boys in oz first hand build up assets worth multi millions from working years away in the mines get pulled from under them and they didn't see it coming. They are dumb. I worked away at the same thing and had a plan as to what I was getting into it for and what I was getting out of it. I'm getting married soon and I trust her with my life as I would with my futcher children's lives hopefully. Many people before me built up the farm that I hope to fall into and "mind" for a few years before sumone elce takes it over but if you don't trust the women don't marry her simple as that.

Reggie.

.Kovu. wrote: »

Was it along the lines of...who'd ever marry you?

Perish the thought my dear Kovu

visatorro

id be safe enough. half of nothing is still nothing

foxy farmer

I've seen couples get married with major plans for expansion and come home on seperate planes after the honeymoon. Sites sold to pay off the woman. If a marriage goes wallop any decent self respecting person should walk away without looking for half the farm, especially if the farm belonged to the other spouse before the marriage. It wasn't yours before the marriage. Deal with it. I'm happily single and intend staying that way. My farm was involved in a family legal dispute for nearly 20 yrs back in the early 1900s. I have no intention of running the risk of something similar. I see farmers rear kids and after 20yrs+ on the farm they wouldn't do a stroke to help or have no interest in farming whatsoever. They still expect to build houses on the farm though.

Base price

The generalisations in this thread amaze me.
Firstly as far as I know - in a separation/divorce only the assets/wealth that BOTH parties amassed during the marriage are considered.
Land that has been transferred prior to a marriage is NOT considered. In cases where it has been then it is down to either bad legal advice or one of the parties rolling over. If minors are involved then in most cases the father is normally expected to provide maintenance until they are out of full time education. If a second home is required then assets/cattle may have to be sold to finance same.
All separations/divorces are unique in their individual circumstances and no two are the same.
A good family law solicitor and barrister are worth their weight in gold when it comes to separation/divorce negotiations.

Damo810

.Kovu. wrote: »

If someone were to ask me for a pre-nup, I would seriously reconsider the marriage.

"Oh I love you darling, by the way can you sign this, just in case I won't love you in ten years time"

Whats wrong with being prepared though, anything can happen over the course of a marriage which could be 40+yrs easily.

There could be assets worth a good few hundred thousand or even into the low millions, whats wrong with wanting to protect that, if a problem were to arise.

I don't see the problem, unless people are going into marriage specifically for the fact that the other persons is worth quite a bit of money, in which case the marriage probably won't last anyways.

fits

There is no way a divorcing person is entitled to half the farm if the asset was there before the marriage. I'm surprised farmers posting here are so clueless about this tbh.

Gillespy

You're right to be cautious. It was always 'till death do us part', but with today's high divorce rate, sadly, not all marriages are ending in death.

case 956

i know of two people who got pre nup signed and after marriage broke down were worth nothing but in fairness to the two wives they walked away looking for maintenance for the kids and a roof for there head, not th land, both farmers moved out of family home and left houses to wives.... not all women all land grabbers and when the time comes here to get married i wont ask for a pre nup as i trust my girlfriend and it in also my interest to maintain my kids if my relationship break down and if that means seling some assest to this well den let it be

Kovu

Reggie. wrote: »

Perish the thought my dear Kovu

Damo810 wrote: »

Whats wrong with being prepared though, anything can happen over the course of a marriage which could be 40+yrs easily.

There could be assets worth a good few hundred thousand or even into the low millions, whats wrong with wanting to protect that, if a problem were to arise.

I don't see the problem, unless people are going into marriage specifically for the fact that the other persons is worth quite a bit of money, in which case the marriage probably won't last anyways.

I can understand why it would be useful, even necessary in some marriages, especially in those that you mention, may have high financial farms behind them on one side. But for the average farmer I don't think it would be. Maybe I'm just seeing it from a different angle, I am not one that will be running down an aisle in any case!

The_Pretender

fits wrote: »

There is no way a divorcing person is entitled to half the farm if the asset was there before the marriage. I'm surprised farmers posting here are so clueless about this tbh.

That's interesting, I didn't know that. What is it like in cases where farmers may have only had the land left to them after the death of their parents, when they've already been married years? Or if you're already married and then your parents transfer farm ownership over to you?

fits

The_Pretender wrote: »

That's interesting, I didn't know that. What is it like in cases where farmers may have only had the land left to them after the death of their parents, when they've already been married years? Or if you're already married and then your parents transfer farm ownership over to you?

I believe the only way divorcing person would be entitled to half would be if they worked to build up and buy or expand the asset together.

Conmaicne Mara

No way I'd contemplate a pre nup, sure I'd be better off after the divorce :pac:

fits

this perception that marriage entitles a person to half of all assets is nonsense.

fits

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

No way I'd contemplate a pre nup, sure I'd be better off after the divorce :pac:

so would most farmers I know. Women my age are very often the higher earners. (including myself).

_Brian

miles_away wrote: »

the risk of being taken to the cleaners and having your hard earned assets split in half is very high

are the IFA not pushing for pre nuptial legislation , as far as i know their is no pre nup arrangement system in this country

If this is the way your thinking then you've not met the right woman and aren't close to the right frame of mind to be in a marriage..

war2k10

Im just jumping in here but i completely agree there should be a way for farmers to make sure there "assets" are safe.

frazzledhome

the_syco wrote: »

A prenup ain't worth the paper it's written on in Ireland. It is NOT recognized in the Irish court of law.

Agreed, that's what the OP is getting at.

smcgiff

Gillespy wrote: »

... sadly, not all marriages are ending in death.

You might want to rephrase that.

To summarise...

1. Prenups are not legal in Ireland.
2. In a divorce it's not as simple as dividing all assets in half. Although if a wife has spent years on the farm, devoting her entire time to the farm/household then it's what she would deserve.


I understand the custodian mentality of farmers. It's a burden if anything. A lot of good men got married to farms and must regret it in middle/old age.

miles_away

Mad4simmental wrote: »

Iv seen boys in oz first hand build up assets worth multi millions from working years away in the mines get pulled from under them and they didn't see it coming. They are dumb. I worked away at the same thing and had a plan as to what I was getting into it for and what I was getting out of it. I'm getting married soon and I trust her with my life as I would with my futcher children's lives hopefully. Many people before me built up the farm that I hope to fall into and "mind" for a few years before sumone elce takes it over but if you don't trust the women don't marry her simple as that.

i dont trust anyone entirely

miles_away

case 956 wrote: »

i know of two people who got pre nup signed and after marriage broke down were worth nothing but in fairness to the two wives they walked away looking for maintenance for the kids and a roof for there head, not th land, both farmers moved out of family home and left houses to wives.... not all women all land grabbers and when the time comes here to get married i wont ask for a pre nup as i trust my girlfriend and it in also my interest to maintain my kids if my relationship break down and if that means seling some assest to this well den let it be

im not opposed to the man having to provide child maintenance , provided the money isnt being used for surplus to requirements

miles_away

_Brian wrote: »

If this is the way your thinking then you've not met the right woman and aren't close to the right frame of mind to be in a marriage..

im not religous so id be quite happy never to get married , i dont think their is a right woman tbh , im very happy with the woman i have , we dont live together but we never ever argue

miles_away

smcgiff wrote: »

You might want to rephrase that.

To summarise...

1. Prenups are not legal in Ireland.
2. In a divorce it's not as simple as dividing all assets in half. Although if a wife has spent years on the farm, devoting her entire time to the farm/household then it's what she would deserve.


I understand the custodian mentality of farmers. It's a burden if anything. A lot of good men got married to farms and must regret it in middle/old age.

i dont agree with only being married to a farm , their is a middle ground between that however and leaving oneself exposed to a royal plucking

Grainne101

At least some of the perception is based on the law in some US states whereby a spouse is automatically entitled to half the assets and/or income of the other spouse. There are, of course, ways to circumvent this both in the US and in Ireland (although the 50:50 split is not necessarily the case in Ireland). A good solicitor should be able to advise whether it be by tying the farm into a trust for the offspring or future offspring of the transferee (I'm not certain of the specifics on this).
By and large where farms have to be sold it comes down to very acrimonious splits and the spouse who previously owned the assets may be ordered to sell in order to pay maintenance for children etc.
It should also be noted that in many cases where a farm is inherited it may most likely be expanded or improved by the couple during the marriage. The spouse who did not bring the farm into the marriage may also have been bring an off farm income into the marriage which also may need to be considered. These things are rarely black and white. And remember it's not always the man that brings the farm into the marriage!!

smcgiff

miles_away wrote: »

i dont agree with only being married to a farm , their is a middle ground between that however and leaving oneself exposed to a royal plucking

There probably isn't.

1. Find a woman you are sure you want to spend the rest of your life with... and take a chance.
2. Become the farming equivalent of Silas Mariner... Silas Farmer?!? And ensure you can pass the farm down to niece or nephew.

Maphisto

miles_away wrote: »

the risk of being taken to the cleaners and having your hard earned assets split in half is very high

are the IFA not pushing for pre nuptial legislation , as far as i know their is no pre nup arrangement system in this country

There's an awful lot of generalisations on this thread, a good bit of humour and a little bit of specific information.

It would be worth speaking to a lawyer if its a concern to you. I can't imagine an initial consultation is going to cost much more than €100, if that. Might be worth it even just to put your mind at rest, or at the least confirm what you thought.

I wish you well

mikom

♫ Now I ain't sayin' she a spud digga........

aaabbbb

mikom wrote: »

♫ Now I ain't sayin' she a spud digga........

But she ain't messin with that hoe....

Dont be daft

Base price wrote: »

The generalisations in this thread amaze me.
Firstly as far as I know - in a separation/divorce only the assets/wealth that BOTH parties amassed during the marriage are considered.
Land that has been transferred prior to a marriage is NOT considered. In cases where it has been then it is down to either bad legal advice or one of the parties rolling over. If minors are involved then in most cases the father is normally expected to provide maintenance until they are out of full time education. If a second home is required then assets/cattle may have to be sold to finance same.
All separations/divorces are unique in their individual circumstances and no two are the same.
A good family law solicitor and barrister are worth their weight in gold when it comes to separation/divorce negotiations.

Your way off. Once they become married all the assets become a single pool and when the Divorce is dividing, it divides from this pool.
Who owned the asset beforehand can have an influence, but thats it, an influence only. Its still part of that pool and you can "lawyer up" to the balls and you wont avoid that.
There's even been a case where the wife chased her father in law's farm, arguing that it would one day be her husbands, therefore it should be included in the pool. She failed on appeal to the High Court, but it was a very close decision and has been heavily criticized since.

And for all those who are saying "Who'd marry someone who'd want a prenup" or "If your asking about prenups, you shouldn't marry her", I can assure you lots of people had the same glorious notions the day they got married.

Then they come to a Solicitor, thinking there's some slick legal way of squirming out of the mess they're in. The reality is there isn't. A good legal team can mitigate a loss and a bad one can miss opportunities, but there is no golden ticket to holding onto the farm.