Concerns about voting

Morris_fe1s

(1) Is a pencil really suitable to place your vote when a garda is not present as pencil can be erased and changed?
(2) What stops a person adding the 2nd preference if you did not have one for the eu election?


A bar code that represents the name would be good if there was a concern about dishonestly to cross reference your vote?

Addle

But you put your ballot in a sealed box?

Morris_fe1s

Addle wrote: »

But you put your ballot in a sealed box?

All i am saying is that i think our system is open to abuse....

I was uncomfortable voting this evening especially when most people use a pencil, and when i asked for a pen, it was not only frowned upon, but i had to ask the same question three times before he gave me the pen...

I think we can all agree that some politicians have been known to break the law for fdar more serious offences.. voting is serious business

hfallada

Morris_fe1s wrote: »

Oh so its impossible to tamper with the boxes?
I think digital voting is open to fraud also..

All i am saying is that i think our system is open to abuse....

Ballot boxes are sealed with a cable tie and brought to the counting station. Its pretty hard to tamper the votes. A pencil and paper is a system that is used around the world with no problems. There is never reports of voter fraud in Ireland. Do you have seen anything to suggest fraud?

Most voter fraud occurs when thousands of people go from polling station to polling station, telling the staff they are a certain person, that is known not to vote. They then vote under that persons name. In most third world countries this is prevent by putting a person finger in dye.

Morris_fe1s

Pencils and cable ties as security... ??? do you live in disneyland

I was uncomfortable voting this evening, i asked for a pen, it was not only frowned upon, but i had to ask the same question three times before he gave me the pen... (he was prob deaf ... that would explain it)

I think we can all agree that some politicians have been known to be a little shady?

hfallada wrote: »

Ballot boxes are sealed with a cable tie and brought to the counting station. Its pretty hard to tamper the votes. A pencil and paper is a system that is used around the world with no problems. There is never reports of voter fraud in Ireland. Do you have seen anything to suggest fraud?

Most voter fraud occurs when thousands of people go from polling station to polling station, telling the staff they are a certain person, that is known not to vote. They then vote under that persons name. In most third world countries this is prevent by putting a person finger in dye.

hfallada

Morris_fe1s wrote: »

I have an issue with pencils and cable ties as security...


I was uncomfortable voting this evening especially when most people use a pencil, and when i asked for a pen, it was not only frowned upon, but i had to ask the same question three times before he gave me the pen...

I think we can all agree that some politicians are not the most savory of characters and are known for far worse things.. voting is serious business

Polling closes at 10pm and boxes are removed and brought to Dublin castle for counting. There wouldnt be time to open up ballot boxes and get out a rubber and start changing preferences. It would be too time consuming. A biro doesnt make a difference IMO. Voter fraud is generally people voting multiply times.

I never heard of fraud, by changing order of preferences. The counters in Dublin Castle would spot the irregularity, by seeing the difference with the rubbered out preferences and new ones on the ballot papers. A biro wouldnt make a difference

Morris_fe1s

Now that you mention it, i know someone who received two voting cards in two addresses for himself 1 person.....

My argument is merely that:
I think we should make the system more secure... that is all ..pencils and cable ties......

I am only talking about a few votes changed here and there not a mass conspiracy.. i think it could be to tempting for some people.
If you think fraud doesnt occur please see this links below thats took me all over 30 seconds to find
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/may/23/police-open-inquiries-allegations-electoral-fraud-uk
http://www.rnla.org/votefraud.asp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_controversial_elections

hfallada

But Im sure if went to the polling station he is only listed at one.

Not one of those articles is crediable. The guardian only has one case of someone voting twice, anything from the GOP regarding voter fraud is BS(the GOP make it near impossible for minorities to vote) and 98% of cases on wiki are in the third world.

How is using a permanent marker going to make a difference? No system of voting is going to be perfect, but pencil and paper is probably best

Carawaystick

The main issue is what happens the boxes overnight/in transit. This is the bit we need to take on faith, but each box needs to turn up for the count when you can see it being opened and the ballots taken out.

A box would need to be replaced, and then the total votes would need to not stray too much from the expected values, as there are tallies done of each box and so an outlandish result would raise eyebrows or red flags.

If you can tomorrow, it's worth going to a count(for a while), to see democracy in action, a local election count is best, as you might get quicker counts, and if you're in Dublin get into the count.


I was an election agent for a candidate before, before the first count, the returning officer called us all in to agree on potentially spoiled votes. If someone added a preference ( other than 11) it'd be fairly easy to see a different hand wrote it.
Seeing a rubbed out vote would be easily spotted too.


Just thinking now about the pen thing, I'd say a concern would be that people would scribble a bit to make sure the ink is flowing before voting, which would potentially identify ballots.


My main concern tonight was the length of the ballot, about a yard long, which stood out past the back of the booth.

Morris_fe1s

Why are you so defensive?

Our system is far from perfect - i think that you are quite naive personally.

hfallada wrote: »

But Im sure if went to the polling station he is only listed at one.

Not one of those articles is crediable. The guardian only has one case of someone voting twice, anything from the GOP regarding voter fraud is BS(the GOP make it near impossible for minorities to vote) and 98% of cases on wiki are in the third world.

How is using a permanent marker going to make a difference? No system of voting is going to be perfect, but pencil and paper is probably best

ger664

hfallada wrote: »

But Im sure if went to the polling station he is only listed at one.

Both me and my wife receive 3 polling cards for 2 separate polling stations. The electoral register is not accurate or even close to it.

Losty Dublin

ger664 wrote: »

Both me and my wife receive 3 polling cards for 2 separate polling stations. The electoral register is not accurate or even close to it.

Did you report this?

Little CuChulainn

Morris_fe1s wrote: »

Pencils and cable ties as security... ??? do you live in disneyland

I was uncomfortable voting this evening, i asked for a pen, it was not only frowned upon, but i had to ask the same question three times before he gave me the pen... (he was prob deaf ... that would explain it)

I think we can all agree that some politicians have been known to be a little shady?

They aren't just sealed with a cable tie, they have a seal on them too. They are given Garda escort to the count center and a Garda is posted there at all times.

As for the pencil, I assume it's just something which developed from a desire to avoid ink stains which spoil your vote. Also, they don't dry out like a pen does so you don't have to buy new ones as often.

ger664 wrote: »

Both me and my wife receive 3 polling cards for 2 separate polling stations. The electoral register is not accurate or even close to it.

Don't you register yourself on the register?

Morris_fe1s

Best point on the whole thread ....

what about these multiple voting cards..whats your argument here?

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

They aren't just sealed with a cable tie, they have a seal on them too. They are given Garda escort to the count center and a Garda is posted there at all times.

As for the pencil, I assume it's just something which developed from a desire to avoid ink stains which spoil your vote. Also, they don't dry out like a pen does so you don't have to buy new ones as often.



Don't you register yourself on the register?

roy rodgers

Its gas my 9 years old was with me tonight at the voting station and he even asked why were we using a pencil? so we could rub it out if we made a mistake??
It made me think about it how easy the votes could be changed even a 9 year old could see it

ger664

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Did you report this?

Orginally we both registered when we bought the house in 1995 and got 2 cards for 2 stations. 5 Years ago I reported it both of us filled out forms etc. So at the next election only expecting to get one card each we got 3 each instead.

I should really rectify this but I suspect I will only end up registering a fourth card. The part that's not funny is we get 6 copies of election material/spam from lazy candidates unwilling to knock on my door.

NavyandBlue

I'm guessing that if this presented the slightest issue in practice, Denis Riordan would have sought recourse to the High Court long ago!

Five Lamps

Morris_fe1s wrote: »

Why are you so defensive?

Our system is far from perfect - i think that you are quite naive personally.

Relax. There is no perfect system that excludes fraud altogether.

sheeper

Maybe we should go electronic lol

Grolschevik

Paranoid thread is paranoid.


(Yay! I finally did one of those smug and annoying 'x thread is X' posts. Not sure I did it right, though...)

leeroybrown

You'll find that a pencil always makes an excellent clear mark on the polling card that's quite difficult to erase. Fraud on anything other than a tiny scale would become noticable quite quickly to the counters and tally. Ultimately, the whole system really relys on the security of the boxes and the Gardaí supervising them doing their jobs effectively.

Some people are never happy...

GonnaFreak1994

Yer, I'm only 18 so i don't know much. So anyway, I was 'studying' for my Leaving Cert at 21:30 today, when a car pulled out front. Went out and it was the local MP (I didn't know this). Asked me if I voted. I said Yes (Lied) and he said he was told the people in this house didn't vote (My dad was at a funeral and my sisters are in college doing their exams), it was just me and my mother (and she only arrived half an hr earlier as she worked late). Anyway, he said if I could just go up to the polling station to make sure. Went back in the house and told my mum. She said that there is a list showing who voted and that was the Local MP. I was shocked as he was asking me who I voted for. Anyway, we decided we'd go up to vote. At the door a man ticked a list (I can only assume that he was ticking my name) and then I went to get the slips. Voted in Pencil behind a Booth (that was merely a desk with a board blocking the front), tried to put it in the box, but it wouldn't fit. Squeezed it as far as I could but the box was so full, you could literally pick out a good few voting slips. Deciding I had better things to be doing I left, only to see the local MPs car parked at the bottom of my lane =/

I assumed that I had anonymity and that the MP at least wouldn't be told who voted.

Grolschevik

GonnaFreak1994 wrote: »

Yer, I'm only 18 so i don't know much. So anyway, I was 'studying' for my Leaving Cert at 21:30 today, when a car pulled out front. Went out and it was the local MP (I didn't know this). Asked me if I voted. I said Yes (Lied) and he said he was told the people in this house didn't vote (My ad was at a funeral and my sisters are in college doing their exams), it was just me and my mother (and she only arrived half an hr earlier as she worked late). Anyway, he said if I could just go up to the polling station to make sure. Went back in the house and told my mum. She said that there is a list showing who voted and that was the Local MP. I was shocked as he was asking me who I voted for. Anyway, we decided we'd go up to vote. At the door a man ticked a list (I can only assume what he was ticking) and then I went to get the slips. Voted in Pencil behind a Booth (that was merely a desk with a board blocking the front), tried to put it in the box, but it wouldn't fit. Squeezed it as far as I could but the box was so full, you could literally pick out a good few voting slips. Deciding I had better things to be doing I left, only to see the local MPs car parked at the bottom of my lane =/

Yeah. Bull****. 'Local MP'?

GonnaFreak1994

Grolschevik wrote: »

Yeah. Bull****. 'Local MP'?

Yer, lives 5 miles down the road, IN THE SAME PARISH. I don't live in Dublin and I'm hardly going to shout out his name am I? Besides, of the 8 candidates I 3 lived near me. I get I shouldn't of called the candidate an MP....my mistake. But as I said, I'm not familiar with politics.

expectationlost

GonnaFreak1994 wrote: »

Yer, lives 5 miles down the road, IN THE SAME PARISH. I don't live in Dublin and I'm hardly going to shout out his name am I? Besides, of the 8 candidates I 3 lived near me. I get I shouldn't of called the candidate an MP....my mistake. But as I said, I'm not familiar with politics.

i presume he noticing you called them an MP while technically correct that they are Members of Parliament we usually call them TDs here

GonnaFreak1994

expectationlost wrote: »

i presume he noticing you called them an MP while technically correct that they are Members of Parliament we usually call them TDs here

No, I didn't know who he was, he told me his name and only when I told my mum did she tell me he was a TD. Sorry I called him a MP but my 3 sisters and my parents are English and refer to them as MPs. Isn't TD Irish for MP? Teachta Dala as in member of the Dail?

MayoSalmon

sheeper wrote: »

Maybe we should go electronic lol

Well we trust our cash online..but can vote

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

GonnaFreak1994

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Yeah, but I felt guilty, even though I don't know him my dad does. I was actually planning on voting but I had to study for a test I had (I'm doing my leaving), and combined with the fact they knew who was voting (Is this normal?) left me feeling guilty.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Morris_fe1s

A vote in pencil... votes overflowing from the box.... cavke ties as security...absolutely impossible to interfere with the vote!:) i could not agree more... what was i thinking... i must have been under a paranoid delusion ..please accept my apologies

GonnaFreak1994 wrote: »

Yer, I'm only 18 so i don't know much. So anyway, I was 'studying' for my Leaving Cert at 21:30 today, when a car pulled out front. Went out and it was the local MP (I didn't know this). Asked me if I voted. I said Yes (Lied) and he said he was told the people in this house didn't vote (My dad was at a funeral and my sisters are in college doing their exams), it was just me and my mother (and she only arrived half an hr earlier as she worked late). Anyway, he said if I could just go up to the polling station to make sure. Went back in the house and told my mum. She said that there is a list showing who voted and that was the Local MP. I was shocked as he was asking me who I voted for. Anyway, we decided we'd go up to vote. At the door a man ticked a list (I can only assume that he was ticking my name) and then I went to get the slips. Voted in Pencil behind a Booth (that was merely a desk with a board blocking the front), tried to put it in the box, but it wouldn't fit. Squeezed it as far as I could but the box was so full, you could literally pick out a good few voting slips. Deciding I had better things to be doing I left, only to see the local MPs car parked at the bottom of my lane =/

I assumed that I had anonymity and that the MP at least wouldn't be told who voted.

amdublin

Oh yes, you are completely right.

So the process is:
After the vote finishes at 10 the guards bring them to the local td's house. They bring "fake"/replacement boxes to the centre.
The guards are in on the fraud too...this is because the td sorts them out with overtime.
A week before the ballot the guards and td's do a draw to see what td will get the boxes e.g. In Dublin north west it might be the ff td. In Dublin central it might be labour. D'yu know wharra mean.

Anyway the td hosts a "erasing and changing" party all night. He has all his friends and family in with rubbers and pencils and they change all the votes.

Early next morning the guards come collect the boxes and switch them with the fake boxes.

So good process in place for this fraud. It used to be "vote early, vote often", it's now "erase and change".

Hope this helps clarify your question op.
Rgds
Amdub

amdublin

GonnaFreak1994 wrote: »

Yer, I'm only 18 so i don't know much. So anyway, I was 'studying' for my Leaving Cert at 21:30 today, when a car pulled out front. Went out and it was the local MP (I didn't know this). Asked me if I voted. I said Yes (Lied) and he said he was told the people in this house didn't vote (My dad was at a funeral and my sisters are in college doing their exams), it was just me and my mother (and she only arrived half an hr earlier as she worked late). Anyway, he said if I could just go up to the polling station to make sure. Went back in the house and told my mum. She said that there is a list showing who voted and that was the Local MP. I was shocked as he was asking me who I voted for. Anyway, we decided we'd go up to vote. At the door a man ticked a list (I can only assume that he was ticking my name) and then I went to get the slips. Voted in Pencil behind a Booth (that was merely a desk with a board blocking the front), tried to put it in the box, but it wouldn't fit. Squeezed it as far as I could but the box was so full, you could literally pick out a good few voting slips. Deciding I had better things to be doing I left, only to see the local MPs car parked at the bottom of my lane =/

I assumed that I had anonymity and that the MP at least wouldn't be told who voted.

What's an MP

Morris_fe1s

I believe that the system is open to abuse...based on the facts and circumstances surrounding our voting system...

If i was there with a box of voting cards overflowing, and i wanted my Cousin to get more votes... i could be tempted to erase and change one or two votes... would you not be tempted? I guess your to honest (i might add, temptation is not a crime... no actus reus)

amdublin wrote: »

Oh yes, you are completely right.

So the process is:
After the vote finishes at 10 the guards bring them to the local td's house. They bring "fake"/replacement boxes to the centre.
The guards are in on the fraud too...this is because the td sorts them out with overtime.
A week before the ballot the guards and td's do a draw to see what td will get the boxes e.g. In Dublin north west it might be the ff td. In Dublin central it might be labour. D'yu know wharra mean.

Anyway the td hosts a "erasing and changing" party all night. He has all his friends and family in with rubbers and pencils and they change all the votes.

Early next morning the guards come collect the boxes and switch them with the fake boxes.

So good process in place for this fraud. It used to be "vote early, vote often", it's now "erase and change".

Hope this helps clarify your question op.
Rgds
Amdub

amdublin

Morris_fe1s wrote: »

I believe that the system is open to abuse...based on the facts and circumstances surrounding our voting system...

If i was there with a box with voting cards overflowing and i wanted my friend to get more votes... i would be tempted to erase and change the votes... would you not be tempted? I guess your to honest (i might add, temptation is not a crime... no actus reus)

Your original concern was around the pure pencil and paper issue. The controls was clarified around that.
Your concern is now overflowing boxes.

Look i take on board your concerns but you'd have to have a lot of things to happen for the system to go wrong as you've outlined:
1. You need a dishonest person
2. Who wants to help his friend
3. Who gets accepted to be part of the process - either a counter or person who gives out forms in polling centre
4. You need box to be overflowing so they have access to forms
5. You need person sitting with them (another risk control) to turn blind eye


Etc


It's really unlikely dude...

Morris_fe1s

extremely unlikely ... is so improbable that nobody would ever think it's reasonably possible to do....


Not even a 9 year old.........

amdublin wrote: »

Your original concern was around the pure pencil and paper issue. The controls was clarified around that.
Your concern is now overflowing boxes.

Look i take on board your concerns but you'd have to have a lot of things to happen for the system to go wrong as you've outlined:
1. You need a dishonest person
2. Who wants to help his friend
3. Who gets accepted to be part of the process - either a counter or person who gives out forms in polling centre
4. You need box to be overflowing so they have access to forms
5. You need person sitting with them (another risk control) to turn blind eye


Etc


It's really unlikely dude...

amdublin

Morris_fe1s wrote: »

extremely unlikely ... is so improbable that nobody would ever think it's reasonably possible to do....


Not even a 9 year old.........

Could you, or your 9 year old pal outline exactly what you see happening I.e. Where and how the fraud would take place.

We can then discuss the controls around it that would or would not prevent it.

BillyBoy13

Grolschevik wrote: »

Yeah. Bull****. 'Local MP'?

No I can confirm this. Im not going to name the local candidate or the party... but in Co Louth anyway a certain party were going around gathering up young lads in "disadvantaged" areas and giving them a quick lecture on how politicians only look after the fat cats in D4 but this party is different, it looks after "normal people" and then drops the teens at the gates of the schools.

Arthur Beesley

Morris_fe1s wrote: »

Pencils and cable ties as security... ??? do you live in disneyland

I was uncomfortable voting this evening, i asked for a pen, it was not only frowned upon, but i had to ask the same question three times before he gave me the pen... (he was prob deaf ... that would explain it)

I think we can all agree that some politicians have been known to be a little shady?

Is this your first time voting?

Why didn't you bring your own pen?

Arthur Beesley

amdublin wrote: »

Oh yes, you are completely right.

So the process is:
After the vote finishes at 10 the guards bring them to the local td's house. They bring "fake"/replacement boxes to the centre.
The guards are in on the fraud too...this is because the td sorts them out with overtime.
A week before the ballot the guards and td's do a draw to see what td will get the boxes e.g. In Dublin north west it might be the ff td. In Dublin central it might be labour. D'yu know wharra mean.

Anyway the td hosts a "erasing and changing" party all night. He has all his friends and family in with rubbers and pencils and they change all the votes.

Early next morning the guards come collect the boxes and switch them with the fake boxes.

So good process in place for this fraud. It used to be "vote early, vote often", it's now "erase and change".

Hope this helps clarify your question op.
Rgds
Amdub

I hope the participants have enough cop on not to mention the party on the Twitter or Bookface. Could get the host in a spot of bother.

amdublin

Arthur Beesley wrote: »

I hope the participants have enough cop on not to mention the party on the Twitter or Bookface. Could get the host in a spot of bother.

Read my post again (one you quoted)...but first switch your sarcasm detector to on

No Pants

You'd need to erase and change thousands of votes to change the outcome. It would be a lot easier to switch out a bunch of ballots, and that wouldn't be easy at all.

Mint Sauce

So for those who dont know what goes on before and after the polls open and close.

This is from memory. As well as the staff/officers setting up the booths, tables, putting up voting instructions, they also check the Boxes before the polls open, ie, lid put on and secured, and signed. After polls closed top is sealed, and signed by the staff manning the polling centre. Before returning the centre to as it was, then escort to count centre as already stated.

During the day as well, the two people at the desk who took your polling card, or checked your ID and crossed you off the list, also observe you placing your ballot in the box, and would notice if you tried fishing out one that was jutting out. If the centre has over x amount of booths, I believe its 3, they also require an additional officer to be present, and a Guard to be there the whole time.

Yes, TDs, candidates do visit, to cast their votes, will sometimes ask one of the staff/officers what turn out is like, might hang around for a while, but are not allowed to canvass.

Beleive us, its quite hard to rig a vote here.

Little CuChulainn

Morris_fe1s wrote: »

what about these multiple voting cards..whats your argument here?

Voting is an almost absolute right. There is very little involved in registering for that reason. This is to encourage people to register. It's up to you to make sure you are properly registered. Casting multiple votes is a fairly serious offence and would require someone to go to multiple polling stations throughout the day. Even then, it would have to be done on a very large scale to make any kind of difference.

Arthur Beesley

amdublin wrote: »

Read my post again (one you quoted)...but first switch your sarcasm detector to on

It's on and working - that was aimed at the OP. :pac:

Losty Dublin

amdublin wrote: »

Your original concern was around the pure pencil and paper issue. The controls was clarified around that.
Your concern is now overflowing boxes.

Look i take on board your concerns but you'd have to have a lot of things to happen for the system to go wrong as you've outlined:
1. You need a dishonest person
2. Who wants to help his friend
3. Who gets accepted to be part of the process - either a counter or person who gives out forms in polling centre
4. You need box to be overflowing so they have access to forms
5. You need person sitting with them (another risk control) to turn blind eye


Etc


It's really unlikely dude...

Just to add to this.

Unused ballot papers are returned along with the lists of registered voters at each voting station. At a count, the ballots in each box needs to tally with the voters issued with papers on the day. If there are noticeable discrepancies then questions may be asked by the returning officers at the request of any of the candidates.

Morris_fe1s

I am a firm believer that every vote counts, especially to a new candidate.
20 or 30 votes might be a big deal to someone new starting out.

Besides erasing a single vote, and changing it is deception. A person makes a gain, and another makes a loss.

No Pants wrote: »

You'd need to erase and change thousands of votes to change the outcome. It would be a lot easier to switch out a bunch of ballots, and that wouldn't be easy at all.

Little CuChulainn

Morris_fe1s wrote: »

I am a firm believer that every vote counts, especially to a new candidate.

But in reality it really doesn't and someone is very unlikely to engage in voter fraud for the purpose of a few votes.

No Pants

Morris_fe1s wrote: »

I am a firm believer that every vote counts, especially to a new candidate.
20 or 30 votes might be a big deal to someone new starting out.

Besides erasing a single vote, and changing it is deception. A person makes a gain, and another makes a loss.

Have you any evidence that this has happened in this country? Ever?

Five Lamps

Given the nature of proportional representation and the transfer system, it would be very difficult to influence an election by fiddling a few votes that might be poking out of a box. You would need oversight of every vote and how the election is proceeding and at that stage the boxes are opened under the eye of the tallymen.

In my view, the person most affected would not be a candidate but the voter who's intent was altered.

Bogan

I'd rather a pencil and paper system compared to the US electronic systems which can be rigged before anyone even votes. They don't even have a way of auditing it correctly and depend on what the machine says you voted.