Rent a room lodger refusing to leave

cerise

what can I do. My rent a room lodger has been verbally given 12 days notice to leave due to her unreasonable behaviour. She has refused to accept this. The monthly rent is 50euro less than similar places. I had suggested 2 months ago if she wanted to leave that was fine with me and she should start looking as she was complaining about paying bills and not a great sharer ie her needs always came first.

She insisting on a months notice and will now only pay weekly. She refuses to talk about the situation and will only communicate via written notes. This is unacceptable to me. what can I do? The atmosphere is awful. Her rent was 5 days late and has only given an amount for a week.

athtrasna

I suggest you tell her that she has to be out by a certain date and time and that of she's not you will pack her belongings and change the locks. As a licensee she has no security of tenure and is wrong to think otherwise. Yes you should give reasonable notice but a rule of thumb is by rental period so if she's now paying rent weekly, a week would be considered fair notice.

This may sound harsh but it's your house, she does not get to call the shots.

Penny Tration

She's a licensee, she has pretty much no rights. Next time she leaves the house, pack her belongings, leave them in the garden, change the locks and inform her by text that her belongings can be collected.

Pawwed Rig

Do not leave her belongings in the garden as you could then be liable for them but as others have said if you are an owner occupier then you can turf them out whenever you like. If she comes into the house after the notice period (written) she is breaking and entering and should be dealt with by the Gardai. The notice period is completely at your discretion.

sassyj

athtrasna wrote: »

I suggest you tell her that she has to be out by a certain date and time and that of she's not you will pack her belongings and change the locks. As a licensee she has no security of tenure and is wrong to think otherwise. Yes you should give reasonable notice but a rule of thumb is by rental period so if she's now paying rent weekly, a week would be considered fair notice.

This may sound harsh but it's your house, she does not get to call the shots.

This is exactly what I'd do, good advice.

Penny Tration

Garden was probably a bit much.

Pack them up, change the locks and leave them ready for collection in your house, then inform her of where she can collect them.

Johnny Be Goode

Hi, talk to a solicitor before doing anything, very important to get professional advice before doing or saying anything JBG

athtrasna

Johnny Be Goode wrote: »

Hi, talk to a solicitor before doing anything, very important to get professional advice before doing or saying anything JBG

Why? The information is freely available on the citizens information site. A licensee does not have any rights compared to a tenant. The OP can evict them with little or no notice. Notice has been given. Professional advice in this case would be a wase of time and money

endacl

I'd be a bit stricter, in fairness. If you know what time she'll be back, have her stuff ready in the hallway. You can hand it out to her. Send her a text to inform her that this is happening. Don't respond to her reply. Have a change of lock ready in case she refuses to give your key back.

This is not a rental property. It's your home, ffs. If you don't want her in it, she can't be in it. Simple as that.

Best of luck with it.

Mr. Incognito

Residential tenancy act doesn't apply to lodgers

You are entitled to pack her things and change the locks

martingriff

endacl wrote: »

I'd be a bit stricter, in fairness. If you know what time she'll be back, have her stuff ready in the hallway. You can hand it out to her. Send her a text to inform her that this is happening. Don't respond to her reply. Have a change of lock ready in case she refuses to give your key back.

This is not a rental property. It's your home, ffs. If you don't want her in it, she can't be in it. Simple as that.

Best of luck with it.

Can you do this with a lodger. I know if somwone is renting a place the landlord can not go into house but can you just pack up there stuff if they rent a room

matrim

endacl wrote: »

I'd be a bit stricter, in fairness. If you know what time she'll be back, have her stuff ready in the hallway. You can hand it out to her. Send her a text to inform her that this is happening. Don't respond to her reply. Have a change of lock ready in case she refuses to give your key back.

This is not a rental property. It's your home, ffs. If you don't want her in it, she can't be in it. Simple as that.

Best of luck with it.

If you do go with an action like this make sure to have a witness there to cover yourself

endacl

martingriff wrote: »

Can you do this with a lodger. I know if somwone is renting a place the landlord can not go into house but can you just pack up there stuff if they rent a room

They've had their notice. It's not the OP's fault that they've refused to hear it.

Pawwed Rig

martingriff wrote: »

Can you do this with a lodger. I know if somwone is renting a place the landlord can not go into house but can you just pack up there stuff if they rent a room

Pretty much. They have the same rights to your house as a friend you invite over for the weekend ie none

martingriff

endacl wrote: »

They've had their notice. It's not the OP's fault that they've refused to hear it.

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Pretty much. They have the same rights to your house as a friend you invite over for the weekend ie none

Thanks never know that. I have never rented out a room or anything like that. I am guessing that an occupier can not just go into a room and do that unless notice was given

Francie Barrett

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Residential tenancy act doesn't apply to lodgers

You are entitled to pack her things and change the locks

This is awful advice.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/owning_a_home/home_owners/rent_a_room_scheme.html

This also means that private tenants living in your home are living under alicensee agreement not a tenancy agreement and are really only entitled to reasonable notice if you choose to terminate the agreement. Tenants are, however, entitled to refer disputes regarding periods of reasonable notice, retention of deposits, and disputes regarding deductions from rent for damage to property that is over and above normal wear and tear to the Small Claims Court.

For me, 12 days notice is not reasonable. I assume the small claims court would take a very dim view if you confiscated her property and changed the locks on your doors and effectively left her homeless.

For me, one months notice would be more than fair. I would also be serving her with a notarized letter informing her of so. That should give you full protection.

endacl

Francie Barrett wrote: »

This is awful advice.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/owning_a_home/home_owners/rent_a_room_scheme.html

For me, 12 days notice is not reasonable. I assume the small claims court would take a very dim view if you confiscated her property and changed the locks on your doors and effectively left her homeless.

For me, one months notice would be more than fair. I would also be serving her with a notarized letter informing her of so. That should give you full protection.

That's fair enough, I suppose, while talking online and in the abstract.

However, if it were my home, I'd consider 12 days plenty.

Small claims court would have nothing to do with this, by the way. It wouldn't fall within their remit. How come nobody on here ever seems to know what the SCC actually does. It seems to be almost a Pavlovian response. "Take 'em to the SCC, OP! That'll show 'em!"

:rolleyes:

No it won't.

odds_on

endacl wrote: »

That's fair enough, I suppose, while talking online and in the abstract.

However, if it were my home, I'd consider 12 days plenty.

Small claims court would have nothing to do with this, by the way. It wouldn't fall within their remit. How come nobody on here ever seems to know what the SCC actually does. It seems to be almost a Pavlovian response. "Take 'em to the SCC, OP! That'll show 'em!"

:rolleyes:

No it won't.

When a lodger/licensee is being unreasonable, the owner may ask/tell him/her to leave immediately.

Francie Barrett

endacl wrote: »

Small claims court would have nothing to do with this, by the way.

It clearly says on that page that rent a room disputes are handled by the small claims court. If the court found that 12 days notice was not enough, then the tenant could book into a hotel for a week and the OP would have to pick up the tab.

I would always err on the side of caution with things like this. It does sound like this tenant is a slippery customer, and I find when people are shifty about money like this, they would be more likely to take any route they could to get their own back. The OP really should have established a period of notice that both parties agreed to prior to renting the room.

Lesson learned.

Johnny Be Goode

I know you all mean well but when dealing with legal matters e.g. rights of rent a room tenant versus home owner professional advice is crucial. Although you want to help,you do not have to deal with the consequences should things go pear shaped JBG

cerise

Thanks for your feedback. Its a difficult position I never thought I would be in. My lodger is under the impression that she has rights because she rents a room and has said to me she will leave when it suits her and if I don't like it to call the guards. It is getting nasty and stressful. I don't want her in my house while I am away on holidays in June.

ABajaninCork

Then put her out NOW. Pack her belongings, video the event, and have a friend with you when you do it. Have a locksmith on standby to change the locks. Cover your arse.

Did you give her notice in writing?

Potatoeman

endacl wrote: »

That's fair enough, I suppose, while talking online and in the abstract.

However, if it were my home, I'd consider 12 days plenty.

Small claims court would have nothing to do with this, by the way. It wouldn't fall within their remit. How come nobody on here ever seems to know what the SCC actually does. It seems to be almost a Pavlovian response. "Take 'em to the SCC, OP! That'll show 'em!"

:rolleyes:

No it won't.

One month seems fair. I wouldnt want the potential hassle of packing her stuff up and changing the locks might bring. If you want her gone the per week payment means she is more likley to leave sooner but put down a deadline.

whomitconcerns

whats funny about the citizens advise page ablove is when you click on the link it clarifies what you can use SCC for

"Claims for the non-return of a rent deposit for certain kinds of rented properties, such as, a holiday home or a flat in a premises where the landlord also lives. The Private Residential Tenancies Board handles such claims for the mainstream private rented housing sector."

So as long as you return deposit OP their is no small claims court liability as I would see it. (not legal advice)

endacl

cerise wrote: »

Thanks for your feedback. Its a difficult position I never thought I would be in. My lodger is under the impression that she has rights because she rents a room and has said to me she will leave when it suits her and if I don't like it to call the guards. It is getting nasty and stressful. I don't want her in my house while I am away on holidays in June.

There's your solution. It your home. She's been told to leave. Call the guards.

Or invite your biggest, smelliest male friend to stay. He can stay in the room your lodger used to use.

ABajaninCork

I'd speak to a brief anyway. Tell them what you intend to do. A consultation shouldn't cost much. Might cost a couple of quid now, but cheap in the long run, if things are turning nasty.

Then action as the others have said. The tenant knows you want her out. So - put her backside out.

endacl

ABajaninCork wrote: »

I'd speak to a brief anyway. Tell them what you intend to do. A consultation shouldn't cost much. Might cost a couple of quid now, but cheap in the long run, if things are turning nasty.

Then action as the others have said. The tenant knows you want her out. So - put her backside out.

^^^

Anybody else read this in a "Ray Winstone" accent?

Maphisto

endacl wrote: »

There's your solution. It your home. She's been told to leave. Call the guards.

Or invite your biggest, smelliest male friend to stay. He can stay in the room your lodger used to use.

Now that is beautiful :P

Zulu

OP I wouldn't be entertaining this muppet any longer. You've done your bit. Next time she leaves, pack her shit and have it ready in the hallway. Call a lock smith and some friends. When she arrives home, don't let her in. Pass her out her stuff. Tell her if she doesn't start clearing her shit out of the front garden you'll call the Guards.
Close the door. And never deal with her again. Don't answer the phone to her. Don't read her texts. Forget about her and the stress she's causing you.

martingriff

cerise wrote: »

Thanks for your feedback. Its a difficult position I never thought I would be in. My lodger is under the impression that she has rights because she rents a room and has said to me she will leave when it suits her and if I don't like it to call the guards. It is getting nasty and stressful. I don't want her in my house while I am away on holidays in June.

She is testing you hear OP. You have to show her your serious.

Francie Barrett

whomitconcerns wrote: »

whats funny about the citizens advise page ablove is when you click on the link it clarifies what you can use SCC for

"Claims for the non-return of a rent deposit for certain kinds of rented properties, such as, a holiday home or a flat in a premises where the landlord also lives. The Private Residential Tenancies Board handles such claims for the mainstream private rented housing sector."

So as long as you return deposit OP their is no small claims court liability as I would see it. (not legal advice)

That's contradictory to what's on the first link and to be honest, it doesn't seem fair to me at all.

By that logic, if I was renting a room to someone, if the tenant left the lid on the toilet up or something one night, then I could hand them their deposit back there and then and turf them out that night.

Francie Barrett

Zulu wrote: »

you'll call the Guards.

The guards will not give a stuff about a civil matter.

endacl

Francie Barrett wrote: »

The guards will not give a stuff about a civil matter.

You're a veritable fountainhead of incorrect information Francie! How do you keep up with yourself at all?!?

She's given notice to her lodger, who is now to all intents and purposes a trespasser. Why wouldn't they 'give a stuff'?

The_Morrigan

Francie Barrett wrote: »

The guards will not give a stuff about a civil matter.

Trespass isn't a civil matter.

whomitconcerns

Francie Barrett wrote: »

That's contradictory to what's on the first link and to be honest, it doesn't seem fair to me at all.

By that logic, if I was renting a room to someone, if the tenant left the lid on the toilet up or something one night, then I could hand them their deposit back there and then and turf them out that night.

Yes it is contradictory I agree that was my point that the first and second pages dont tally.

But on your second point...technically...yes you could...

foggy_lad

Johnny Be Goode wrote: »

Hi, talk to a solicitor before doing anything, very important to get professional advice before doing or saying anything JBG

No need to go to any expense. She has been given perfectly adequate notice.

martingriff wrote: »

Can you do this with a lodger. I know if somwone is renting a place the landlord can not go into house but can you just pack up there stuff if they rent a room

The owner can go into any room in their house at any time but most would respect the privacy of guests visitors and lodgers.

martingriff wrote: »

Thanks never know that. I have never rented out a room or anything like that. I am guessing that an occupier can not just go into a room and do that unless notice was given

Yes they can go into the room at any time and also look through the stuff in the room.

ABajaninCork wrote: »

I'd speak to a brief anyway. Tell them what you intend to do. A consultation shouldn't cost much. Might cost a couple of quid now, but cheap in the long run, if things are turning nasty.

Then action as the others have said. The tenant knows you want her out. So - put her backside out.

Notice has been given and reasonable notice is usually seen as the same as the rental period so a week is plenty!

Francie Barrett

endacl wrote: »

She's given notice to her lodger, who is now to all intents and purposes a trespasser. Why wouldn't they 'give a stuff'?

If you're my tenant and one night I decide I want you out, I give you written notice I want you and your stuff out of my house in 5 minutes. You can call the guards and tell them there is a trespasser in your property and can expect them to help remove the tenant?

The sticking point here is a reasonable period of notice. Is 5 minutes within the letter of the law? 1 day, 12 days, a month? I would be seeking to establish the facts before I did anything.

ABajaninCork

I crave pardon :P

I am after all a LONDONER!

endacl

Francie Barrett wrote: »

If you're my tenant and one night I decide I want you out, I give you written notice I want you and your stuff out of my house in 5 minutes. You can call the guards and tell them there is a trespasser in your property and can expect them to help remove the tenant?

The sticking point here is a reasonable period of notice. Is 5 minutes within the letter of the law? 1 day, 12 days, a month? I would be seeking to establish the facts before I did anything.

Technically yes, but let's not be silly now just for the sake of scoring a point.

:rolleyes:

And just to be clear, I wouldn't be your 'tenant'. I'd be your 'licencee'. You might want to go and do a bit of reading before you go getting even more stuff wrong.

Mrs OBumble

OP, I get where the others are coming from re just bagging her stuff and putting it in the street / hallway. Legally they're correct. But sometimes the law is an ass, and the legal route ain't helpful.

And doing this is likely to make her hate you even more. If she's even a tiny but unbalanced, or already has a criminal record and doesn't really care if it gets a bit longer, then it may mean that she does something to get revenge. This could range from a minor annoyance for you (eg slashed tyres) to something a good deal more harmful and serious (I'm not gonna give an example, in case it gives anyone ideas!).

If she's communicating in writing -that's better than not at all. I suggest doing both of these at the same time.

1) Getting the point across:
Printing out the material linked / listed above which shows that she has no rights.
Do the lawyer's consultation thing, and get a letter from them stating the position, which you give her a copy of. This should include some information about tresspassing, and also perhaps protection orders (depending on how the law works for them in Ireland) - not just the tenancy rights stuff.


2) Doing some research to find options for her ('cos it's regarded as kinda uncool to put anyone out to sleep in the hedgerows in Ireland):
Are there any backpacker or similar hostels that will do a weekly rate, and would take her?
Other people advertising for lodgers? (Maybe you could offer to give her a "nice" reference).
Friends of hers who might have a room?
Friends of yours who know the score and might be willing to take her on? (Be honest with them - but you never know someone might need the money really badly).
Anyone reading this ditto .. could PM the OP (if they had some idea of the location).

Worst case, you may have to help her choose an option and implement the choice for her. (Remember ... this advice is based on reality rather than legality.)


Yes, I know the atmosphere is awful. Been there and done that. Luckily my toss-out went of her own accord. But friends of mine had this problem too - they ended up checking him in to a hostel and movng his stuff there themselves.

Good luck.

matrim

One thing not mentioned is did she sign a lease and did that specify notice periods?

jmayo

endacl wrote: »

You're a veritable fountainhead of incorrect information Francie! How do you keep up with yourself at all?!?

She's given notice to her lodger, who is now to all intents and purposes a trespasser. Why wouldn't they 'give a stuff'?

Lets be realistic here.
When you call the guards you might end up talking to someone who probably thinks this is a civil matter since it involves rental accommodation and then you end up having to point them to the actual legal information.

Even after that they probably won't be breaking any speedlimits getting round to your place to manhandle the ex lodger out onto the street.

The only reason they will be somewhat prompt coming round is if there is major threat of it turning violent.
Even in that case if a certain so called "ethnic" group is involved they won't be in any rush round.

I do think OP needs to get concrete legal opinion and show to lodger she is actually contacting the guards. Call her bluff.

Give the lodger ultimatum to be out by certain time on certain date.
Contact guards before that date and let them know situation. It is just to appraise them of what has transpired and what might transpire.
cover your ass basically. Keep records of who you talked to and get them to log complain.

Have witness available for that exact time and call the guards if she is not out at that time.
Again it is to force her hand and to cover your ass.
Oh and have locksmith ready to go at that time.

ABajaninCork

matrim wrote: »

One thing not mentioned is did she sign a lease and did that specify notice periods?

I didn't think you needed a lease when renting a room. I stand to be corrected though...

matrim

ABajaninCork wrote: »

I didn't think you needed a lease when renting a room. I stand to be corrected though...

You don't but if the OP signed a lease specifying one months notice, then he may have to give that.

I'm not sure how the law would stand on it but I can imagine that if they only give the licensee a weeks notice after previously signing to a month in the lease, then if the licensee decided to move into a hotel for the rest of the month and claim that back in the small claims court, they would have a decent case

endacl

matrim wrote: »

You don't but if the OP signed a lease specifying one months notice, then he may have to give that.

I'm not sure how the law would stand on it but I can imagine that if they only give the licensee a weeks notice after previously signing to a month in the lease, then if the licensee decided to move into a hotel for the rest of the month and claim that back in the small claims court, they would have a decent case

See?!?

SCC to the rescue again!

whomitconcerns

matrim wrote: »

You don't but if the OP signed a lease specifying one months notice, then he may have to give that.

I'm not sure how the law would stand on it but I can imagine that if they only give the licensee a weeks notice after previously signing to a month in the lease, then if the licensee decided to move into a hotel for the rest of the month and claim that back in the small claims court, they would have a decent case

Its already established up above SCC doesnt cover that. It only covers non return of deposit in this situation, according to the consumer affairs people anyway....

endacl

whomitconcerns wrote: »

Its already established up above SCC doesnt cover that. It only covers non return of deposit in this situation, according to the consumer affairs people anyway....

No. SCC is also for settling arguments in pubs, finding lost pets, and quashing rebellion. They also do kids parties.



Or maybe they only do this stuff: http://www.courts.ie/Courts.ie/library3.nsf/pagecurrent/781D7D5227918A618025715C004CAEF3?opendocument

matrim

whomitconcerns wrote: »

Its already established up above SCC doesnt cover that. It only covers non return of deposit in this situation, according to the consumer affairs people anyway....

Possibly, as I said I'm not sure how the law would look at it and what's correct. But given that one of the links posted above mentioned reasonable notice, who would decide what is reasonable notice and rule if it wasn't reasonable? PRTB?

If you have previously agreed to 1 month it would be fair to say that 1 week is not reasonable notice.

Also, could it be construed as breach of contract, so brought up that way instead of as a tenancy case?

foggy_lad

matrim wrote: »

Possibly, as I said I'm not sure how the law would look at it and what's correct. But given that one of the links posted above mentioned reasonable notice, who would decide what is reasonable notice and rule if it wasn't reasonable? PRTB?

If you have previously agreed to 1 month it would be fair to say that 1 week is not reasonable notice.

Also, could it be construed as breach of contract, so brought up that way instead of as a tenancy case?

If a lodger pays weekly then a week is reasonable notice but most people will give more.

endacl

foggy_lad wrote: »

If a lodger pays weekly then a week is reasonable notice but most people will give more.

And if the lodger is as the one described in the OP? 'Reasonable' doesn't appear to be part of her thinking here...

matrim

foggy_lad wrote: »

If a lodger pays weekly then a week is reasonable notice but most people will give more.

My reading of the OP is that she was paying monthly and only moved to weekly after her notice was given

what can I do. My rent a room lodger has been verbally given 12 days notice to leave due to her unreasonable behaviour. She has refused to accept this. The monthly rent is 50euro less than similar places. I had suggested 2 months ago if she wanted to leave that was fine with me and she should start looking as she was complaining about paying bills and not a great sharer ie her needs always came first.

She insisting on a months notice and will now only pay weekly. She refuses to talk about the situation and will only communicate via written notes. This is unacceptable to me. what can I do? The atmosphere is awful. Her rent was 5 days late and has only given an amount for a week.

Also, surely reasonable would be whatever was signed up to in advance (if there was an agreement signed)