Assigned Certifier Quotes for New Build

The Gambler 101

I have recently been grant Planning for a new build and want to get started in the next few months. I see there is a lot of uncertainty in the industry with the extra costs per these new regulations.

I'm interested to see if anyone has received any quotes from an Assigned Certifier for the development of their build. At the moment, I have a few quotes ranging from €7k-€15k, but none seem to be able to put an exact figure on the total cost.

Apologies, if there is another thread with this information.

DOCARCH

Have you a Design Certifier? Or...are the quotes you have to act as both Design and Assigned Certifier?

Gumbo

Was talking to a home owner in Dublin City the other day. About to start a large house extension and he has been quoted between 4.5 & 8k.

The cheaper being a consulting engineer, which IMO seems to be good value considering he will be getting, inspection, structural design and certification.

galwaytt

So much for Bully Phil's 1k.....

The Gambler 101

Quotes are to act as both.

Casbra

Ensure you do your research before you look for quotes. If you already have a design team in place then you will just require to appoint assigned certifier and Design certifier (assuming you have also appointed PSDP and PSCS). Just know what you want so you can compare apples with apples.

shane6977

There is an ad on donedeal.ie at the moment offering assigned certifier service for €100!

Seems to be an RIAI registered practice, not sure if it's for real or not at that price!

Not going to post a link as I think it may be against forum rules.

sydthebeat

shane6977 wrote: »

There is an ad on donedeal.ie at the moment offering assigned certifier service for €100!

Seems to be an RIAI registered practice, not sure if it's for real or not at that price!

Not going to post a link as I think it may be against forum rules.

you dont have to, just search "assigned" in teh main section...

this is simply an advertisement.
have you seen his other ad which says he'll apply for planing permission for €95 .... and has

100% success rate since 2005

seeing as the newspaper notice will cost €50ish and the planning application fee is €65.. he appears to be doing it at his own cost..

LOL this is a laughable attempt to advertise... nothing more.

i would also be very wary of an architects office where theres no landline number, nor no address listed... no previous work shown

if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck........

galwaytt

sydthebeat wrote: »

you dont have to, just search "assigned" in teh main section...

this is simply an advertisement.
have you seen his other ad which says he'll apply for planing permission for €95 .... and has

seeing as the newspaper notice will cost €50ish and the planning application fee is €65.. he appears to be doing it at his own cost..

LOL this is a laughable attempt to advertise... nothing more.

i would also be very wary of an architects office where theres no landline number, nor no address listed... no previous work shown

if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck........

I just looked it up - it doesn't say anything In that ad about a Certification for €100.

And I would not attach any credence to the lack of a land line number to anything. To do so would belie the fact that many people now only use a mobile number.

By all means do research and do get references and follow them up.

I mean no-one here uses their real name or id either....

4Sticks

Building Regulations Application
78. Deputy Marcella Corcoran Kennedy Information on Marcella Corcoran Kennedy Zoom on Marcella Corcoran Kennedy asked the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government Information on Phil Hogan Zoom on Phil Hogan in view of the new building regulations the measures in place to regulate the professional fees of engineers retained by persons in the course of constructing their own homes; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [24021/14]

Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government (Deputy Phil Hogan): Information on Phil Hogan Zoom on Phil Hogan The costs of construction activity and related professional services are determined by market forces and I am precluded by trade and competition law from introducing any measures which would interfere with the normal functioning of the market in that regard.

A number of cases have, however, been brought to my attention whereby consumers have been quoted exorbitant charges for professional services in relation to residential construction projects. I am concerned to ensure that in such cases the introduction of the new regulations is not exploited entirely inappropriately to quote for excessive services. While the new regulations will support improved competence and professionalism, which will provide additional work opportunities for competent practitioners and construction professionals, homeowners should not have to pay an inflated rate for excessive inspection services. In this regard, I have asked my Department as a matter of urgency in conjunction with the Housing Agency and the construction professional bodies, to prepare guidance on an appropriate inspection plan for a single, stand-alone dwelling. This will inform the market in relation to offering realistic and appropriately priced professional services for such work. I understand that the construction professional bodies are already well advanced in terms of providing similar guidance on this and other matters relevant to the new arrangements for building control. I have asked my Department to keep the issue under close and continuing review.

source

galwaytt

Quote in Galway this week for certifier fees for 2800 sq ft house: €9,000 excluding VAT.

sydthebeat

galwaytt wrote: »

Quote in Galway this week for certifier fees for 2800 sq ft house: €9,000 excluding VAT.

That would appear to be about the norm at the moment.

sydthebeat

galwaytt wrote: »

Quote in Galway this week for certifier fees for 2800 sq ft house: €9,000 excluding VAT.

That would appear to be about the norm at the moment.

Drift

galwaytt wrote: »

Quote in Galway this week for certifier fees for 2800 sq ft house: €9,000 excluding VAT.

Interested to know what's included and more importantly what isn't included in the quote galwaytt?

Is this exclusively to act as an Assigned Certifier or are some design/project management/tendering services included?

sydthebeat

Drift wrote: »

Interested to know what's included and more importantly what isn't included in the quote galwaytt?

Is this exclusively to act as an Assigned Certifier or are some design/project management/tendering services included?

in the interest of clarity, i think only assigned certifer AND design certifier quotes should be posted.

if theres additional services, that should be declared

Drift

I think it will be fairly rare to find the Assigned Certifier role being taken up by someone who is providing no other services. I'd imagine in many cases, particularly for one off house projects, they will be a designer (or have design input) as well.

Personally I wouldn't enjoy taking on the risk associated with being an AC without some level of design input.

sydthebeat

Drift wrote: »

I think it will be fairly rare to find the Assigned Certifier role being taken up by someone who is providing no other services. I'd imagine in many cases, particularly for one off house projects, they will be a designer (or have design input) as well.

Personally I wouldn't enjoy taking on the risk associated with being an AC without some level of design input.

assigned certifier and design certifier will, in the vast majority of cases, go hand in hand, thus what i stated above.
I can see eventually this engagement being simply referred to as 'the certifier' role.

there is a large market out there who will only pay for the minimum statutory requirement, so in the main, i think DS and AS quotations wil be comparable.

Drift

Hope the following is not too far Off-Topic. If it is mods please move/delete as appropriate:


I hope there won't be too many Assigned Certifiers confident to provide the minimum (i.e. sign any bit of paper they're paid to). If there are people doing same they will be doing the more diligent professionals out of business (just as they have been up until now with the "old" regime.)

One of the trickiest things I can see is the interaction between design and assigned certifiers. At what point does the assigned certifier's responsibility stop and the design certifier's start.


To give an example:
If a Design Certifier certifies that his/her design is compliant and when the project is on site the Assigned Certifier sees that it is not compliant based on his or her own knowledge what does the AC do?

1. The diligent AC goes back to the DC and they thrash out a solution. Time and effort is expended all-round but the solution is good albeit more costly for the client.

2.The not so diligent AC says "It's not my problem - the DC has signed a cert to say it's compliant." Cheaper for the client in the short term but what happens when everyone ends up in court 6 years down the line. There's no way, in my opinion, that the AC won't be found partially to blame.

sydthebeat

to be honest, at most levels including residential... the DS will also be the AS.

i cannot think of any regular circumstances where there will be a separation of both, and at this stage lets differentiate between a "planning" designer and the Design certifier role.... i think there will eb many cases where the planning designer will not be providing certification services.

I would agree that id be very slow to assume the As responsibilities if i wasnt the DS.

Drift

Structural items such as Hollowcore and Prefabricated Trusses will need separate design ancilliary certification although to be fair I've never had problems getting design certification from manufacturers for these items.

Precast and or pre-stressed lintels made by Timmy Johnny down the road should have some form of design certification or certified load tables too!!!

They way I was seeing it is that there would rarely be a project with only one Design Certifier.


P.S.:
On the larger projects with multi-part design teams I actually don't see as much of an issue because the management will be better:

There will be multiple design ancilliary certifiers:
Architect
Structural Engineer
M&E Engineer
Specialist Designers such as truss manufacturers, highway/traffic engineers, acoustic consultants


Edit: Post corrected for future generations with strikethroughs as per Syd's post below.

sydthebeat

Drift wrote: »

Structural items such as Hollowcore and Prefabricated Trusses will need separate design certification although to be fair I've never had problems getting design certification from manufacturers for these items.

Precast and or pre-stressed lintels made by Timmy Johnny down the road should have some form of design certification or certified load tables too!!!

those are all "ancillary certification" that you are referring to.

they are not fulfilling the responsibility of "design certifier"

MizMix

Pre new regulations we had agreed a fixed fee with our architect. Planning dragged on and on and just came through- so we have agreed an additional 3k for him to cover all additional certification responsibilities (AS and DS). We're very happy with that fee and it seems on the lower end of the scale?

Drift

sydthebeat wrote: »

those are all "ancillary certification" that you are referring to.

they are not fulfilling the responsibility of "design certifier"

Apologies Syd - Yes I was mixing up the Ancilliary and Design Certifiers completely!!!

Much like that old television programme when it comes to Design Certifiers ... "There can only be one"

sydthebeat

Drift wrote: »

Apologies Syd - Yes I was mixing up the Ancilliary and Design Certifiers completely!!!

no probs...

its interesting to note that the responsibility to collate and submit the "ancillary certification" is actually that of the design certifier, not the assigned certifier.
so the design certifiers role does not stop at commencement stage.

Drift

Does the DC have to be a member of the Holy Trinity?

If not I can see a set-up evolving where the planning permission agent wants to take the role of Design Certifier after receipt of planning and just employ an Assigned Certifier for the bare minimum .... this is the type of situation that would worry me if acting as the Assigned Certifier.

sydthebeat

MizMix wrote: »

Pre new regulations we had agreed a fixed fee with our architect. Planning dragged on and on and just came through- so we have agreed an additional 3k for him to cover all additional certification responsibilities (AS and DS). We're very happy with that fee and it seems on the lower end of the scale?

if you had agreed some kind of a post planning 'inspection / supervision' engagement with your architect then they would have been including for some of the required services already.

much of the reason for the introduction of these regs was the fact that some builders / developers/ self builders were not engaging any professional at all to ensure compliance with building regulations.

sydthebeat

Drift wrote: »

1. Does the DC have to be a member of the Holy Trinity?

If not I can see a set-up evolving where the planning permission agent wants to take the role of Design Certifier after receipt of planning and just employ an Assigned Certifier for the bare minimum .... this is the type of situation that would worry me if acting as the Assigned Certifier.

1. yes, the design certifier must be one of the holy 3.

another example of why the exclusion of architectural technologists was an abomination.

Drift

MizMix wrote: »

Pre new regulations we had agreed a fixed fee with our architect. Planning dragged on and on and just came through- so we have agreed an additional 3k for him to cover all additional certification responsibilities (AS and DS). We're very happy with that fee and it seems on the lower end of the scale?

What Syd said is spot on. If he was already going to be supervising construction correctly then the Assigned Certifier role just formalises a lot of what a good Architect would have been doing anyway.

It does add a lot of extra paperwork and hassle though so the extra 3k sounds fairly reasonable for that.

Drift

sydthebeat wrote: »

1. yes, the design certifier must be one of the holy 3.

Then as you said above there is VERY LITTLE reason to distinguish between the two and to the lay-person it would be easier to understand if there was just a single "Certifier" role.

MizMix

We first engaged with him when business was very very bad in the sector and I bargained him down well below an 'average' arch fee. I don't suspect he was cutting corners but quite simply with all the additional admin of these new regulations it wouldn't have been feasible for him without charging the additional 3k. Overall we're happy. Just worried when we go to tender contractors will also be charging an additional amount- i.e. to capitalise on less/no self builds and to cover any additional admin and liability they will now have

Drift

MizMix wrote: »

Just worried when we go to tender contractors will also be charging an additional amount- i.e. to capitalise on less/no self builds and to cover any additional admin and liability they will now have

They will. Definitely.

To be fair I don't think I'd begrudge it to them.

MizMix

I def don't begrudge them if they have additional work but on a personal level it means we will have to make sacrifices as we've little contingency in our budget (our problem I know).

Drift

MizMix wrote: »

I def don't begrudge them if they have additional work but on a personal level it means we will have to make sacrifices as we've little contingency in our budget (our problem I know).

It's understandably a killer when this happens and doubly so when it sounds like you were going to be doing things the right way all along.

sydthebeat

MizMix wrote: »

I def don't begrudge them if they have additional work but on a personal level it means we will have to make sacrifices as we've little contingency in our budget (our problem I know).

well get onto your local TD and ask them what the purpose of having a Building Control Officer in your local authority for if they are not enforcing the building regulations.
They have abdicated responsibility and thrown the cost of this onto you... where you can only choose a very restricted market.

those that have all the power to enforce have no responsibility
those that have all the responsibility to enforce have no power....

Drift

sydthebeat wrote: »

They have abdicated responsibility and thrown the cost of this onto you..

Very well put.

OP:
The legislation was written by Civil Servants to cover their own backsides and the Minister was taken for a fool. Tell them that when they visit your door-step before the next election.

MizMix

That's the thing- a 'self builder' or a one off builder like ourselves were never going to cut corners for a 'family home'. Unlike the big developers (not all, but a lot). In NI for instance they have the building control authority (or whatever their exact name is) with responsibility but typical of here the cost is offloaded onto the one off builder, who was never out to cut corners in the first place and ALL the responsibility offloaded onto the shoulders of the assigned certifier.

The more I learn about this regulation the angrier I get. Naively at first I thought there was going to be benefits!

Drift

There are tremendous benefits to a Properly Designed and Implemented Building Control System and the Minister will repeat these benefits ad nauseam when asked but the fallacy is that this system is well put together. It has failings in both design and implementation.

Carbonnet

sydthebeat wrote: »

no probs...

its interesting to note that the responsibility to collate and submit the "ancillary certification" is actually that of the design certifier, not the assigned certifier.
so the design certifiers role does not stop at commencement stage.

At the recent Building Control conference I asked if all 'ancillaries' were identified and what was their position in law. I specifically asked if the BER cert, the calculations, and any supporting docs such as air permeability test, u-calues and thermal bridging reports were deemed ancillaries - Yes they were, and their positions in law? If the building owner OR SUBSEQUENT building owner takes a case against the AC - his only recourse against those that produced the ancillaries.

It was also commented from the top table that 'Part L' was the easy part of the regs to get all relevant data and proof from - because it came from a single source - the BER Assessor.

How tight is the evidence coming from builder to assessor?

sydthebeat

http://bregsforum.wordpress.com/2014/06/04/law-society-certifier-is-single-point-of-responsibility/comment-page-1/

the law society arent exactly clear here...

they are saying that only the assigned certifers (and one must assume 'design' certifers) certification will be required at conveyancing phase.... and again lets assume they are one and the same.

Therefore any future action will be at a 'single point of responsibility'... not at a group of people.

I would also assume then, that it would be the remit of the 'single point of responsibility' to instigate action against the ancillary certifiers...
assuming they are still in existence AND they have PI insurance (huge assumption IMHO)

so to be honest, id be wary of taking when the BCOs say as being gospel, they are not in the firing line.


this is also a very important document to read

Where the Design Certifier is the Architect, the following is a summary of the recommended process
that should be adopted:
a. Design Certifier should convene a Design Team meeting to agree and record roles in Ancillary
Certification and follow up.
b. A summary for each Part should be prepared, indicating which party is providing design
certification and indicating which elements of design will be carried out after commencement
should be prepared.
c. Each requirement or design parameter in each Part should be identified and the relevant design
assessed and recorded against these.
d. Where other designers are providing ancillary design certificates, the Design Certifier will have a
role in getting assurance that they has used reasonable skill, care and diligence and that they
have covered the headings required. The Design Certifier will then compile the information for
submission and records.
e. Where possible, the Assigned Certifier (if different to the Assigned Certifier) should be requested
to review the Design Certificate file and confirm they are happy with the process, assumptions
and conclusions.

Carbonnet

Wasn't a Building Control opinion - Legal Firm specialising in the field... see link on IBCI web site - go to conferences and see Barrett Chapman (Of McCann Fitzgerald)

(I cant post link im afraid)

sydthebeat

Wasn't a Building Control opinion - Legal Firm specialising in the field... see link on IBCI web site - go to conferences and see Barrett Chapman (Of McCann Fitzgerald)

i think we're probably saying the same thing below

Carbonnet wrote: »

1. If the building owner OR SUBSEQUENT building owner takes a case against the AC - his only recourse against those that produced the ancillaries.

2. How tight is the evidence coming from builder to assessor?

1. I think we are saying the same thing here. If an owner or subsequent owner takes a case against the 'assigned certifer' ... that certifers only recourse is to then go after the ancillary certifiers themselves. I woudl argue that the assigned certifiers certification is 'open ended' time-wise... where ancillary certifiers may go out of business and / or not have PI insurance.

this leaves the assigned certifier in a very awkward place as to who they will or will not accept ancillary certification from. EG if the HRV system in 5 years time is proven not be inputting sufficient good quality airt, which leads to health problems... the assigned certifer / design certifier is first in the firing line for action. What happens if the company that produced teh system has vanished off into the ether????.....


2. are you asking here what evidence does a BER assessor require??
if so, the assessor should never be reliant of the builder for documentary evidence. They should source their own to a level they are satisfied with which covers them. If not, they simply use default values, which are crap, or they must ignore that element altogether.

Drift

At the very least one would expect the Design Certifier to demand a copy of every Ancillary Certifier's PI insurance.

Of course as Syd says that's no guarantee that they will still be in business and in possession of PI insurance in 10 years time! I don't see a single circumstance where all parties would end up in court that the Assigned and Design Certifier will not be found in some way responsible.

Carbonnet

I think key to all this is the inspection regime that must submitted during application - has anyone seen drafts/templates/ or know what stages the inspections should take place? Regular, well timed inspections should pick up on any discrepancies - or not?

For example - evidence that accredited detailing was followed on site. You'll get an air tightness cert, but condensation and mould will only develop later during occupancy - inspected - or signed off?

Just checking

Just been quoted 10.5 k for a 1000sq foot extension from a architect is the norm now as regs have changed ..?

kkelliher

Just checking wrote: »

Just been quoted 10.5 k for a 1000sq foot extension from a architect is the norm now as regs have changed ..?

there is no real norm at present but it would appear a mental price for an extension

Just checking

Just seen on another post 9k for a 2800 sq foot house ..architect has given a very good break down of the fee , includes tender for builder and a meeting with him every two weeks etc but doesn't include planning :-(

First quote I got so will have to get a few more, was expecting around 6k but not 10.5k

sydthebeat

Just checking wrote: »

Just been quoted 10.5 k for a 1000sq foot extension from a architect is the norm now as regs have changed ..?

Quote for what?

Everything from inception to completion, or just certification role?

Just checking

Start to finishing all drawings .. Design and planning , detail design and tender ,contract on site administration and certification project supervision design phase , assigned certifier and just notice excl vat of 23%..

Seems a lot of money before we even start laying a foundation ?

4Sticks

It covers a lot of work that s/he needs to charge you for. I am sure however that you don't have to pay all up front , but in stages . Is that correct?

Just checking

Yes it will be in stages .. Just wasn't expecting that much lol will have to get other quotes to compare ..

kkelliher

Just checking wrote: »

Start to finishing all drawings .. Design and planning , detail design and tender ,contract on site administration and certification project supervision design phase , assigned certifier and just notice excl vat of 23%..

Seems a lot of money before we even start laying a foundation ?

well for a full service its not as massive as i had taught. i understood it was just for assigned certifier role.