Redeployment

PTO

Can anyone shed some light on redeployment for me?
Let me explain my position...... I am a NQT coming to the end of my first year fully qualified. I have been in a school since Christmas subbing. Not really doing much teaching, just bits and pieces bit mostly supervising. I've made a good impression in the school and a lot of people have said they would like to see me there next year. A retirement has come up in my subject and therefore there is gonna be a job there next year. Naturally I have put forward my desire to still be in the school next year to the appropriate people. Apparently though the hours have to go to the department for redeployment which means that some randomer will probably be put into the school in the hours that I have been working for. Is there any way I can sway things in my favour at all or is redeployment just another means that was concocted to keep older teachers in jobs over NQT 's?

Moody_mona

Some "randomer" will have lost their job. If you're subbing you're not really working towards those hours either, they were never your own hours.

Are you sure the job is bring advertised? We had a retirement last year in my subject, I thought I would benefit from the loss of a permanent teacher, but the hours were absorbed by other part time staffs members and I kept my contract covering a secondment. Retirement does not always equal new job.

Red Waterlily

I understand your frustration - it's your career and of course you are not happy that a stranger can be re deployed into the job that you've held for a year.

There's something to say about your argument though. I have often heard new members of staff express resentment towards older teachers' seniority in one breath and, in the very next breath, assert and defend their own small bit of seniority over others. Your post is an example of this: You resent "keeping older teachers in jobs" (other people's seniority) as a bad thing while pointing to your own year doing the job as a a reason why you should be given it (your own seniority, however short,) as a good thing.

Newer teachers who resent the seniority of others should follow through on their logic and be happy to step aside the first moment someone else wishes to have their job. Or stop resenting. Everyone wants to keep their job and mind their career - just like you do.

I wish you well and really do understand your being worried - it's a difficult time of the year. Our principal speaks to every staff member and lets them know their hours for the following year at the start of May. It might be worth asking your principal what the situation really is.

linguist

I fully understand the OP's frustration - and see the logic of those who've responded! There are other threads on redeployment that it might have been more appropriate to add to first btw.

We don't know the exact number of post-primary teachers facing redeployment this year. During the Haddington Road industrial dispute, the newspapers ran a number below 50. It has to be said that redeployment is still a rarity in the overall scheme of things - most available posts are still released to be filled in the normal manner. It all comes down to your location, the subjects you have, the subjects people on the redeployment panel have etc. Redeployment is supposed to be completed by the end of May so realistically if your school is taking a redeployed teacher they should hear next week.

I think the position as stated by others is more likely to be the problem you face. A retirement nowadays opens up the chance to give additional hours to other rpt teachers or cid holders not on full hours. It's only if there was an absolute skills shortage in your subject area that you would expect to see a full job open up - i.e. the only music teacher retiring etc. You should go and ask what the exact situation is and I really don't mean to be negative. Schools want to re-employ people they've had a good experience with but they have also been told by DES circular that they must boost the hours of part-time teachers where possible.

PTO

Thanks for the replies. Very insightful. Sorry... I should have chosen my words more carefully (posted after my shift in the bar :-( Boohoo!! More woe!!!) By "randomer" I really just mean someone who doesn't know the school and the kids, and hasn't been working on extra curricular activities in an effort to better the school as I have. I didn't mean it to be derogatory. Now, naturally any new teacher coming into the school will be in that same position but I just find it so unfair that I won't even get a look in. They might get a fantastic teacher out of it but then again they might get a dud and I think it's another case of nqt's being sold down the river by the unions in favour of established teachers that I can't even stick my cv in and have a chance to state my case for the job.

And I have no resentment towards senior teachers. It's because of them that I was inspired to become a teacher and the guidance, support and knowledge I have gained from them the past few months is not something I take lightly. I have resentment towards the treatment of nqt's by the department and the unions and I have resentment towards lazy teachers who have a chance of benefitting by redeployment.

thefasteriwalk

Can you link that circular please, linguist?

seavill

Wow some strong statements in fairness.

You have resentment towards lazy teachers how do you know this possible teacher would be lazy they may be the most fantastic teacher in the world but the numbers have dropped in their school so much they are losing THEIR job through no fault of their own. Do you think it's the crap teachers that get put on a list or something?

You seem to think you have an entitlement to this for some reason. You have been subbing for 4 months you have not even been doing this job. Many many many more than you have passed through the doors or that school missing out on jobs or losing hours etc.

Like someone else said you resent their entitlement to a job yet you have a sense of entitlement to it. In a position as a sub you have not proven anything. Subbing and teaching bringing classes through exams are two different things.

I'm not having a personal go at you I'm just stating the facts. There is most likely 3/4/5 teachers there not on full hours who would resent you getting hours ahead if them. In schools I have been in most retirements can be swallowed up by switching things around without ever advertising a job.

Redeployment has got nothing to do with attacking nqts. My brother was 6 years out of college covering, in 6 years full time teaching, one particular year covering a secondment type situation for 3 of the 6 years and lost his job for redeployment.

If I were you I would be careful not to express these strong opinions openly in the staff room

PTO

I have acknowledged that they might get a fantastic teacher. Don't get me wrong. There is a good chance of that. And nowhere did I say I was entitled to a job. I am not entitled to any job, nobody is. I would like to have a fair chance at the job though.
The one thing I am entitled to however is my opinion. And yes, not everyone will agree with my opinions but covering up strong opinions so as not to ruffle feathers is counter productive. I don't intend on standing on a chair in the staffroom and listing out my demands to anyone who will listen but I will not stand idly by knowing there is a chance of hours next year only to walk out the door without even a whimper in June. I am gonna gather as much information as I can about redeployment and be able to stake my claim for hours next year which is why I came here to get some views on redeployment. Naturally I am very biased about my situation. I want to be able to make a living out of my profession and not be living day to day in limbo. I'm sure teachers facing redeployment feel the same.

I am not here for personal digs but I have a serious problem with one thing you have said. How can you come on here and say I have not proven anything because my position was as a sub? Do you know me? Have you worked out who I am just by this thread? I am not gonna go listing things I have done in the school because its the business of me and the school but to think that a sub cannot prove themselves to be an asset to the school because they are not a fully fledged teacher is laughable. School life does not begin and end in the classroom.

seavill

The you I used was meant as a universal you. Not you personally. I subbed for 2 years and I stand over the fact that, although school does not stop at the classroom door (I have run extra curricular since I started working) this "randomer" which you said is "lazy", your words, has experience teaching, in the real sense. A sub in your position as you described does not.

I didn't say you can't have an opinion I offered you the advice based on nearly 10 years teaching to be careful how you express those opinions and that the staff room is not the place to do it.

I think you missed the point we are making. There is no job for you to have a chance at until it is advertised. It may go to redeployment it may go to split hours in the school until those two avenues have been exhausted there is no job for you to have a chance at getting.

The information you are asking for has been given to you a couple of times. It's not what you want to hear but has been said.
Redeployment has been in existence for years but only really implemented since CP. The principal has no control over giving you this job over someone from redeployment. You have no control over it. There is nothing you can do about it only hope no one gets redeployed. Which is a distinct possibility. You can however as you say you have done give your best side to the principal in the hope of different hours being available.
This job is outside of your control should it go to redeployment there is nothing you can do about that unfortunately. That is the info on redeployment you have asked for

Have you an issue with the primary school panel system?

PTO

My apologies... I didn't read it as universal. My mistake. But I cleared up in my replies what I meant by "randomer" and I also stated that I don't think every teacher going for redeployment is lazy... None of them may be. So please don't turn my post into me saying that lazy randomers are taking MY job because that is not what it is.
Thank you for your clarity. I now understand it. I'll just have to see how it pans out. I'm sure with your experience that you can see why I feel so strongly about it and am a little irked by it all.

I am not familiar with the primary school panel system. I am not in that sector.

linguist

thefasteriwalk: circular 0034/2009 - forgive me for having a slight suspicion you were trying to catch me out, otherwise I'm quite sure you can access the relevant websites without secretarial assistance.

Coming back to the main issue at hand, I think everyone can or should understand the OP's frustration however I think that the issues of redeployment and the overall staffing of the school need to be separated.

On redeployment, I'll say again what I have elsewhere: the total lack of transparency in the post-primary redeployment scheme is appalling. There are hundreds if not thousands of non-permanent teachers needlessly worrying at the moment because there is nobody on the panel looking to redeploy to their area with their subject combination. It is the height of cruelty and inhumanity to subject decent people to such apprehension for no good reason when a little factual information could resolve so much.

To me it is more than a distinct possibility that the post the OP is looking at will NOT be filled through redeployment - it is probably the likely outcome. What the OP needs to understand is that the post will probably be divided in whole or part between other staff members. The OP knows the subject combination - if it is very specific and there is nobody else on the staff available that could change everything. If it's the dreaded English and History or History and Geography etc., I'd be stunned if there weren't others short on hours. Also, being there since Christmas in a subbing role means that the OP does not currently have an rpt contract and may not even have any contract. As such, should the post be available, it will need to be advertised and the OP will have to compete for it I would have thought.

seavill

In fairness the you I used wasn't very clear at all.

I understand fully this is my first year in nearly 10 years not worrying about redeployment.
Like I said nothing to do with attacks on nqts. The majority of these teaches don't want to move. They have no choice the principals have no choice.

This is why I suggested you don't broadcast the statements that you did day earlier. Fully understand something first

linguist

seavill: I'm still looking for an answer to a question I posted in another forum on this topic and I don't know if you or anyone can actually provide an answer based on experience, friends in the profession etc.

Is there any 'priority' in the way redeployment operates - in other words, is there any reason to believe that they would target posts in a 'fair' manner roughly as follows:

1) actual new vacancies
2) new career breaks/secondments etc.
3) career breaks/secondments etc. where the sub does not have hours of their own
4) rpt posts where holder has less than one year's service
5) rpt posts where holder has more than one year's service

I ask because one might draw certain inferences from the circulars in force and the unions' views on the 'rights' of teachers with more than one year's service in their rpt post however the unions haven't bothered updating their documentation in three years whilst the management bodies rebrief principals every year. Ordinary teachers are being kept totally in the dark where, as I said earlier, a little knowledge of the precedents that have been set could really alleviate their anxiety.

seavill

I have no idea. I only know the basics

rainbowtrout

PTO wrote: »

Can anyone shed some light on redeployment for me?
Let me explain my position...... I am a NQT coming to the end of my first year fully qualified. I have been in a school since Christmas subbing. Not really doing much teaching, just bits and pieces bit mostly supervising. I've made a good impression in the school and a lot of people have said they would like to see me there next year. A retirement has come up in my subject and therefore there is gonna be a job there next year. Naturally I have put forward my desire to still be in the school next year to the appropriate people. Apparently though the hours have to go to the department for redeployment which means that some randomer will probably be put into the school in the hours that I have been working for. Is there any way I can sway things in my favour at all or is redeployment just another means that was concocted to keep older teachers in jobs over NQT 's?

In short, no.

Redeployment exists to transfer permanent/CID teachers from schools which are over quota to schools where vacancies occur.

• If there is a vacancy is has to go to redeployment first, if there is a teacher who matches the criteria in the area they may be redeployed into it voluntarily or compulsorily.
• If no match exists the principal may choose to divide the hours among existing staff who are not on full hours if the subjects fit.
• If that's not the case then it might be advertised and go to interview, where you may or may not be called for interview. Someone else might apply for that job who has the same qualifications but a lot more experience. Then again you might get lucky.

But no you cannot sway the redeployment process to suit your own agenda.

gaiscioch

Glancing at the op, would it be true to say that there is resentment in some or even many staffrooms for redeployed teachers? The banter and camaraderie in our staffroom is second to none (we've an egregiously incompetent management) so culturally I'd be deeply uncomfortable to be redeployed if that is the sort of environment you're facing into before you even put your foot in the door. Do most redeployed teachers just get on fine?

In two important respects (potential hostility in the new school and no choice in your school once you've put your 50km radius down), I'd prefer to get voluntary redundancy (tax free once every ten years) than to be redeployed. Is that an option?

rainbowtrout

gaiscioch wrote: »

Glancing at the op, would it be true to say that there is resentment in some or even many staffrooms for redeployed teachers?

I don't think that's true to say. The OP was coming at from the point of view that despite only subbing in the school that they felt a greater entitlement to an upcoming position, despite the fact that if it was filled by redeployment it would be filled by a permanent teacher from a school over quota. I think that was more a personal view than a view of all teachers.

We got a teacher redeployed into our school 2 years ago. It's not ideal. It was a compulsory redeployment. She didn't want to work in our school. I wouldn't go so far as to say that the principal didn't want her there, but I'm sure there was apprehension given that they have no say on who is redeployed in. On top of that the subjects didn't match up. :rolleyes: So we were given a teacher in a subject where we have plenty of qualified teachers and had lost a teacher in a subject that no one had.

The staff weren't resentful towards her. To be fair I think most teachers realise that the system is beyond anyone's control and that the person redeployed in often doesn't have much of a say in it either.

gaeilgebeo

rainbowtrout wrote: »

To be fair I think most teachers realise that the system is beyond anyone's control and that the person redeployed in often doesn't have much of a say in it either.

Completely agree.
My school has had it's fair share of redeployments and from what I've seen, there are no winners when it comes to compulsory redeployment.

gaiscioch

Just reading that thread about secondment from second to third level and I wonder can you be redeployed from second to third level?

Jamfa

gaiscioch wrote: »

Just reading that thread about secondment from second to third level and I wonder can you be redeployed from second to third level?

No but you can be seconded if the DES and 3rd level college have an agreement.

gaeilgebeo

gaiscioch wrote: »

Just reading that thread about secondment from second to third level and I wonder can you be redeployed from second to third level?

I know teachers in the ETB system that have been redeployed into further education colleges.

gaiscioch

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

I know teachers in the ETB system that have been redeployed into further education colleges.

Very interesting. If a secondary school teacher (with a Level 10 qualification, if that makes a difference) were to be redeployed in the next year, how would they go about seeking to be redeployed into third level?

gaeilgebeo

gaiscioch wrote: »

Very interesting. If a secondary school teacher (with a Level 10 qualification, if that makes a difference) were to be redeployed in the next year, how would they go about seeking to be redeployed into third level?

I can't answer your question unfortunately.
The cases I refer to were compulsory redeployments and the teachers in question were not happy with the move.

Jamfa

gaiscioch wrote: »

Very interesting. If a secondary school teacher (with a Level 10 qualification, if that makes a difference) were to be redeployed in the next year, how would they go about seeking to be redeployed into third level?

If your employer is an ETB then it's probably only possible to be redeployed into an ETB which offers further ed. I don't think any other type of 3rd level would qualify.

vamos!

Has there been any movement on voluntary redeployment? I think it's in Munster this year and possibly Connaught? I have heard that the Munster numbers are huge. Does that mean that lots temp teachers in Munster are to lose their jobs? I know we all understand that redeployment happens but it could cause bad feeling if all temps were to be lost in a school, as opposed to just the one through standard redeployment or being over quota. Is Leinster due to have voluntary redeployment next year? How does it work? Are you guaranteed to be redeployed or is there the risk that there could be no suitable position for you and you would have to stay in your school, having let management know that you wanted out? I know I am kind of pushing the thread sideways but I didn't want to start a new redeployment thread.

seavill

Not really answering your question but in relation to the voluntary scheme we are in Munster and there are 5 teachers in my school, that I know of, that have applied for it. Some have applied to move into other provinces so it may not necessarily have the biggest impact on temp teachers in Munster schools it could be spears around the country

rainbowtrout

vamos! wrote: »

Has there been any movement on voluntary redeployment? I think it's in Munster this year and possibly Connaught? I have heard that the Munster numbers are huge. Does that mean that lots temp teachers in Munster are to lose their jobs? I know we all understand that redeployment happens but it could cause bad feeling if all temps were to be lost in a school, as opposed to just the one through standard redeployment or being over quota. Is Leinster due to have voluntary redeployment next year? How does it work? Are you guaranteed to be redeployed or is there the risk that there could be no suitable position for you and you would have to stay in your school, having let management know that you wanted out? I know I am kind of pushing the thread sideways but I didn't want to start a new redeployment thread.

There are no guarantees of redeployment because there is no guarantee that there is going to be a vacancy to move a teacher into that matches up with the area they want to move to and also is a subject match.

In terms of asking for redeployment, I think most principals are realistic enough to know that many teachers want to move for reasons that have nothing to do with where they work. People want to move closer to where they are from or took a job in another part of the country because there was nothing else and now want to move home. Or got married and now need to move etc. If you want out because you are in a horrible working environment I'm sure the principal will be more than aware of that. In a lot of cases it would seem to be a geographic thing. Anyone that has put in for transfer in my school just wants to be closer to home.

katydid

PTO wrote: »

is redeployment just another means that was concocted to keep older teachers in jobs over NQT 's?

You mean is it a way to keep people in full time jobs, with contracts and rights, employed? Yes. You are a new teacher, you don't have a contract or security. That's the way of the world, get over it.

katydid

PTO wrote: »

Thanks for the replies. Very insightful. Sorry... I should have chosen my words more carefully (posted after my shift in the bar :-( Boohoo!! More woe!!!) By "randomer" I really just mean someone who doesn't know the school and the kids, and hasn't been working on extra curricular activities in an effort to better the school as I have. I didn't mean it to be derogatory. Now, naturally any new teacher coming into the school will be in that same position but I just find it so unfair that I won't even get a look in. They might get a fantastic teacher out of it but then again they might get a dud and I think it's another case of nqt's being sold down the river by the unions in favour of established teachers that I can't even stick my cv in and have a chance to state my case for the job.

And I have no resentment towards senior teachers. It's because of them that I was inspired to become a teacher and the guidance, support and knowledge I have gained from them the past few months is not something I take lightly. I have resentment towards the treatment of nqt's by the department and the unions and I have resentment towards lazy teachers who have a chance of benefitting by redeployment.

How would someone benefit by being redeployed? Redeployment turns your world upside down; you have to go to a place you've never worked before, probably having to travel much further from your home at your own expense to do so, leaving behind friends and colleagues you may have known for years.

You make it sound as if redeployment is something people want and have a choice in. People who have permanent contracts deserve to keep their jobs. Are you seriously suggesting that someone who has been teaching twenty years, with a permanent contract, should be given the boot so someone a year out of college should keep their job?

katydid

PTO wrote: »

I will not stand idly by knowing there is a chance of hours next year only to walk out the door without even a whimper in June. I am gonna gather as much information as I can about redeployment and be able to stake my claim for hours next year .

Incredible. Your arrogance is breathtaking. You've been teaching four months part time, and you think you have some kind of right to a job over someone that's been teaching for twenty years on a permanent contract? You can stake your claim all you want, but you're wasting your time. You haven't a leg to stand on.

Kristopherus

katydid wrote: »

Incredible. Your arrogance is breathtaking. You've been teaching four months part time, and you think you have some kind of right to a job over someone that's been teaching for twenty years on a permanent contract? You can stake your claim all you want, but you're wasting your time. You haven't a leg to stand on.

Don't know why you are ranting at the OP at this stage. S/he has'nt posted in almost a year and probably gotten on with life.:rolleyes: