Dublin funding ‘too successful’

Prop Joe · 16-05-2014 10:10am #1

"GAA director general Páraic Duffy admits the funding of Dublin has reached a point where it has become "almost too successful".

Duffy said the GAA are looking into developing a different model of allocating funds to counties in 2015."

The funding Dublin have received in recent years has been a resounding success they are now the top team in football across most grades and the hurlers are not too far behind.

Now i hope the GAA follow the exact same model and implement it in other counties.

It's probably logical to pick a region to back extensively for the next 5 years.

For example Kildare,Laois,Offaly - Coaches could travel easily around that region - Kildare have good pedigree in football and are improving rapidly in Hurling - Offaly have massive history in both codes - Laois good football standing & the hurlers knocking on the door of the big guns.

With sufficient backing all 3 counties could be in contention for Leinster titles in both grades across all age groups.

yop · 16-05-2014 10:12am

Does Dublin get more funding that other counties? I don't quite understand where his logic is coming from.

Its not Lenister counties only I presume?

iDave · 16-05-2014 10:13am

And in other breaking news they play all their games in Croke Park

Prop Joe · 16-05-2014 10:36am

This is not a stab at Dublin GAA although they recieved massive funding from HQ the majority of the work was done at grassroots through nothing only sheer hard work which now they are reaping the benifits.

Just wondering could other counties now follow suit with some guidance

Through a special budget measure, agreed during the presidency of Sean Kelly in 2005 close to €1m a year for the last six years has been given to the GAA by the Irish Sports Council (ISC) to fund the running of projects in Dublin GAA alone.

Dublin GAA has benefited from €5.9m of State funding over the last six years as part of a special programme between the Irish Sports Council and the association.

The Sports Council provided €3.156m in funding to the GAA in 2010 and of that, some €950,000 went directly to Dublin for development aimed at greater participation.

For the first four years of the scheme, Dublin received €1m through the GAA from Sports Council funding to meet the challenges of participation in such a large population.

Hurling has benefited enormously from that funding and the success of the game in the city across all levels points to the success of the scheme.

Over the first four years, the fund was €1m but that has been cut by €50,000 over each of the last two years.
A hurling development scheme to cover national and regional projects in all counties has been grant-aided to the tune of €6m over five years.

Dublin do recieve more funding but considering the population that is understandable,My question is if we took the Dublin template to another region would we create 2 more Liam McCarthy Cup teams and more football sides challenging for SAM?

gormdubhgorm · 31-05-2014 10:59am

There was not a word of this type of thing between the years 1996 to 2010 inclusive...I wonder why that was!?

Lemlin · 31-05-2014 6:56pm

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

There was not a word of this type of thing between the years 1996 to 2010 inclusive...I wonder why that was!?

Because the funding started in 2005 so is only filtering through now perhaps.

You don't have to be a genius to do the maths....

2005 Dublin start getting extra funding.

2010 Dublin win U21 All Ireland and land 3 of the next five plus 2 All Ireland's.

gormdubhgorm · 01-06-2014 11:45am

Lemlin wrote: »

Because the funding started in 2005 so is only filtering through now perhaps.

You don't have to be a genius to do the maths....

2005 Dublin start getting extra funding.

2010 Dublin win U21 All Ireland and land 3 of the next five plus 2 All Ireland's.

Would ya go away out of that. You are not crediting exceptional management and an exceptional group of players. The fact is the Dublin footballers were not quite good enough in the 90's Kildare and Meath used to beat Dublin. Then in the 2000's Laois, Kildare, and Westmeath beat Dublin. Kerry, Tyrone and Galway were light years ahead of Dublin. The northern teams were better then Dublin in the 90's.
The fact is Dublin have an exceptional era of players and the other counties are at different stages in their cycles. You don't actually believe it is because of funding do you? That used to be a stick to beat Dublins back when they weren't winning ! "Look at the money they get and still can't win!"
Where the funding has been successful is in the hurling bringing the Dubs close to the level of the big guns.
Face facts successful Dublin teams are important for the GAA and attention drawn to other counties as a result.

Look how successful Galway have been at under-age level in huring does this translate to senior success? Again Galway won the u21 football in 2011 and 2013. Does this translate to senior success?
Kilkenny have won 9 all-irelands in 12 years. They have won leinster from 2000 -2011. Why is there no talk about Kilkenny and the amount of money they received?
Kilkenny’s win in the League last season left them the biggest earner in the competition with net returns of €129,948.
The previous year they did even better, when their League take was a cool €142,457. How many leagues have Kilkenny won since 2002? They have won eight leagues. You do the maths....:)
That is on leagues alone...I am sure you can calculate how much they get from all-ireland wins and sponsor-hip added to this.

Lemlin · 01-06-2014 12:22pm

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Would ya go away out of that. You are not crediting exceptional management and an exceptional group of players. The fact is the Dublin footballers were not quite good enough in the 90's Kildare and Meath used to beat Dublin. Then in the 2000's Laois, Kildare, and Westmeath beat Dublin. Kerry, Tyrone and Galway were light years ahead of Dublin. The northern teams were better then Dublin in the 90's.
The fact is Dublin have an exceptional era of players and the other counties are at different stages in their cycles. You don't actually believe it is because of funding do you? That used to be a stick to beat Dublins back when they weren't winning ! "Look at the money they get and still can't win!"
Where the funding has been successful is in the hurling bringing the Dubs close to the level of the big guns.
Face facts successful Dublin teams are important for the GAA and attention drawn to other counties as a result.

Look how successful Galway have been at under-age level in huring does this translate to senior success? Again Galway won the u21 football in 2011 and 2013. Does this translate to senior success?
Kilkenny have won 9 all-irelands in 12 years. They have won leinster from 2000 -2011. Why is there no talk about Kilkenny and the amount of money they received?
Kilkenny’s win in the League last season left them the biggest earner in the competition with net returns of €129,948.
The previous year they did even better, when their League take was a cool €142,457. How many leagues have Kilkenny won since 2002? They have won eight leagues. You do the maths....:)
That is on leagues alone...I am sure you can calculate how much they get from all-ireland wins and sponsor-hip added to this.

So it took Kilkenny eight league wins to make what Dublin are being handed by the GAA a year? You've just proved my point!

Not to mention all Dublin's other sponsorship and the backing of the biggest pool of support in the country.

If you believe money doesn't talk, you are being unbelievably naive. Can clubs and counties down the country afford this?

http://m.independent.ie/sport/hurling/dublin-answer-6m-question-26759948.html

Still the additional funding for all Dublin GAA activities led to a proliferation of coaches across the capital in recent times and there are now approximately 50 employed on close to a 'one per club' basis. It is the envy of almost every other county now with the obvious exceptions.

Half the cost of a games promotion officer is met by the club they're attached to, the rest comes from the combined resources provided by the GAA through the Sports Council, Leinster Council and Dublin County Board itself.

A big thing is made of Dublin only winning one All Ireland between '95 and 2011. I don't get it to be honest. Other strong teams like Armagh only won one. The likes of Meath and Gawlway only delivered two with very strong teams. The fact is Dublin still competed most of the last twenty years. Can the same be said of every other county? Bar Kerry of course.

Ask a Tipp man about being out in the wilderness. Was it their first win in 13 years yesterday?

gormdubhgorm · 01-06-2014 1:37pm

Lemlin wrote: »

A big thing is made of Dublin only winning one All Ireland between '95 and 2011. I don't get it to be honest. Other strong teams like Armagh oy won one. The likes of Meath and Gawlway only delivered two with very strong teams. The fact is Dublin still competed most of the last twenty years. Can the same be said of every other county? Bar Kerry of course.

That is ridiculous argument the line used to be it would be great to see a strong dublin football/hurling team. Then the begrudger's come out when it happens!
You have completely ignored my comments about Galway Hurling and football underage level did it translate to success?
How successful have Tyrone been in the last 12 years?
Was that more by money, good players, or good management?
What about Cork who are always there or there abouts despite football been their second sport?
Furthermore, Mayo/Galway/Kildare/Meath have a great chance of getting to the Q finals each year because of the championship structure.

It's common knowledge that Mayo are the most consistent team in the country over the last 20years.

Money does not guarantee success at that rate Barcelona/Real would have won la liga last year.
Man United would have won the premiership.
Mcllroy would have won all the Golf majors.
When Dublin were sponsored by Arnotts from 88 on did it bring success? There was similar fuss over that...meath won leinster that year!

In the last 20 years Dublin won 3 senior all-irelands and losing one.

1994 Beaten by Down - lost final (Dublin were favourites)
1995 won (barely by a point)

Then Dublin could not get out of Leinster:
1996 Beaten by Meath
1997 Beaten by Meath
1998 Beaten by Kildare
1999 beaten by Meath
2000 beaten by Kildare

(Backdoor system introduced)

2001 Beaten by Kerry Q Finals following replay.

2002 Beaten by Armagh S Finals (despite been overwhelming favourites)

2003 Beaten by Laois ( despite been overwhelming favourites) (Dublin were beaten by Armagh in round 3 of the qualifiers)

2004 Beaten by Westmeath in the leinster Quarters! With Paddy Christie taking 45's!
(Dublin very lucky to be drawn with Leitrim, London, Longford and Roscommon in the Qualifiers!)
Dublin then well beaten by Kerry in the AI Q final.

Then the poor standard of leinster began which guaranteed dublin a quarter final place following leinster wins

2005 Beaten by Tyrone Q Finals following a replay
2006 Beaten by Mayo S Finals
2007 Beaten by Kerry S Finals
2008 Hammered by Tyrone Q Finals
2009 Hammered by Kerry Q Finals (startled earwigs)

2010 Beaten by Cork S Finals
(Lucky to get there having to through the back door following bad loss to meath in leinster semis - beat armagh by two points round three qualifiers and were lucky to be drawn with Louth round 4 qualifiers)

2011 won (10 minute come back against the run of play- Kerry better team - last gasp Dublin point)

2012 Beaten by Mayo S Final (Shock loss)

2013 won (by two points)

Look at these results did the money help? Look at teams that beat Dublin. Look at the nature of the wins and losses.

In reality what really helps Dublin now is the championship structure and the poor standard of leinster.
Ironically, when it suited the Media the poor standard of Leinster was used as the excuse why Dublin did not win Sam from 2005-2009. They were not been tested etc. But the reality was the players were not good enough.

To be a successful team there are two more important things before any amount of money.
1 Good Management
2 Talented Players

blue note · 01-06-2014 3:02pm

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Would ya go away out of that. You are not crediting exceptional management and an exceptional group of players. The fact is the Dublin footballers were not quite good enough in the 90's Kildare and Meath used to beat Dublin. Then in the 2000's Laois, Kildare, and Westmeath beat Dublin. Kerry, Tyrone and Galway were light years ahead of Dublin. The northern teams were better then Dublin in the 90's.
The fact is Dublin have an exceptional era of players and the other counties are at different stages in their cycles. You don't actually believe it is because of funding do you? That used to be a stick to beat Dublins back when they weren't winning ! "Look at the money they get and still can't win!"
Where the funding has been successful is in the hurling bringing the Dubs close to the level of the big guns.
Face facts successful Dublin teams are important for the GAA and attention drawn to other counties as a result.

Look how successful Galway have been at under-age level in huring does this translate to senior success? Again Galway won the u21 football in 2011 and 2013. Does this translate to senior success?
Kilkenny have won 9 all-irelands in 12 years. They have won leinster from 2000 -2011. Why is there no talk about Kilkenny and the amount of money they received?
Kilkenny’s win in the League last season left them the biggest earner in the competition with net returns of €129,948.
The previous year they did even better, when their League take was a cool €142,457. How many leagues have Kilkenny won since 2002? They have won eight leagues. You do the maths....:)
That is on leagues alone...I am sure you can calculate how much they get from all-ireland wins and sponsor-hip added to this.

Well if it's not making a difference to ye, maybe someone else could have it?

klairondavis · 01-06-2014 3:13pm

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Furthermore, Mayo/Galway/Kildare/Meath have a great chance of getting to the Q finals each year because of the championship structure.

gormdubhgorm · 01-06-2014 3:38pm

klairondavis wrote: »

Fair point I meant that Kildare/Meath have a great chance of getting to the AI Quarter finals if they finish runner up in the Leinster Final to Dublin (Dublin for the next while anyway).

ultrapercy · 01-06-2014 3:41pm

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

That is ridiculous argument the line used to be it would be great to see a strong dublin football/hurling team. Then the begrudger's come out when it happens!
You have completely ignored my comments about Galway Hurling and football underage level did it translate to success?
How successful have Tyrone been in the last 12 years?
Was that more by money, good players, or good management?
What about Cork who are always there or there abouts despite football been their second sport?
Furthermore, Mayo/Galway/Kildare/Meath have a great chance of getting to the Q finals each year because of the championship structure.

It's common knowledge that Mayo are the most consistent team in the country over the last 20years.

Money does not guarantee success at that rate Barcelona/Real would have won la liga last year.
Man United would have won the premiership.
Mcllroy would have won all the Golf majors.
When Dublin were sponsored by Arnotts from 88 on did it bring success? There was similar fuss over that...meath won leinster that year!

In the last 20 years Dublin won 3 senior all-irelands and losing one.

1994 Beaten by Down - lost final (Dublin were favourites)
1995 won (barely by a point)

Then Dublin could not get out of Leinster:
1996 Beaten by Meath
1997 Beaten by Meath
1998 Beaten by Kildare
1999 beaten by Meath
2000 beaten by Kildare

(Backdoor system introduced)

2001 Beaten by Kerry Q Finals following replay.

2002 Beaten by Armagh S Finals (despite been overwhelming favourites)

2003 Beaten by Laois ( despite been overwhelming favourites) (Dublin were beaten by Armagh in round 3 of the qualifiers)

2004 Beaten by Westmeath in the leinster Quarters! With Paddy Christie taking 45's!
(Dublin very lucky to be drawn with Leitrim, London, Longford and Roscommon in the Qualifiers!)
Dublin then well beaten by Kerry in the AI Q final.

Then the poor standard of leinster began which guaranteed dublin a quarter final place following leinster wins
2005 Beaten by Tyrone Q Finals following a replay
2006 Beaten by Mayo S Finals
2007 Beaten by Kerry S Finals
2008 Hammered by Tyrone Q Finals
2009 Hammered by Kerry Q Finals (startled earwigs)
2010 Beaten by Cork S Finals
(Lucky to get there having to through the back door following bad loss to meath in leinster semis - beat armagh by two points round three qualifiers and were lucky to be drawn with Louth round 4 qualifiers)

2011 won (10 minute come back against the run of play- Kerry better team - last gasp Dublin point)

2012 Beaten by Mayo S Final (Shock loss)

2013 won (by two points)

Look at these results did the money help? Look at teams that beat Dublin. Look at the nature of the wins and losses.

In reality what really helps Dublin now is the championship structure and the poor standard of leinster.
Ironically, when it suited the Media the poor standard of Leinster was used as the excuse why Dublin did not win Sam from 2005-2009. They were not been tested etc. But the reality was the players were not good enough.

To be a successful team there are two more important things before any amount of money.
1 Good Management
2 Talented Players

You are very wrong when you say money does not guarantee success. In sport at the top level money absolutely guarantees success. Team GB olympic medal haul in London is directly related to the monetary investment as was Australias success in Sydney. The Aussies devised a cost per medal formula that has been adopted across all sports. This is not to discredit the Dubs in anyway, they used their natural advantages wisely. Its up to governing bodies to insure fair distribution of resources so you dont end up with a situation where only 1/3 of counties can play football and 1/5 can play hurling, as is the case now.

Lemlin · 01-06-2014 4:17pm

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

That is ridiculous argument the line used to be it would be great to see a strong dublin football/hurling team. Then the begrudger's come out when it happens!
You have completely ignored my comments about Galway Hurling and football underage level did it translate to success?
How successful have Tyrone been in the last 12 years?
Was that more by money, good players, or good management?
What about Cork who are always there or there abouts despite football been their second sport?
Furthermore, Mayo/Galway/Kildare/Meath have a great chance of getting to the Q finals each year because of the championship structure.

It's common knowledge that Mayo are the most consistent team in the country over the last 20years.

Money does not guarantee success at that rate Barcelona/Real would have won la liga last year.
Man United would have won the premiership.
Mcllroy would have won all the Golf majors.
When Dublin were sponsored by Arnotts from 88 on did it bring success? There was similar fuss over that...meath won leinster that year!

In the last 20 years Dublin won 3 senior all-irelands and losing one.

1994 Beaten by Down - lost final (Dublin were favourites)
1995 won (barely by a point)

Then Dublin could not get out of Leinster:
1996 Beaten by Meath
1997 Beaten by Meath
1998 Beaten by Kildare
1999 beaten by Meath
2000 beaten by Kildare

(Backdoor system introduced)

2001 Beaten by Kerry Q Finals following replay.

2002 Beaten by Armagh S Finals (despite been overwhelming favourites)

2003 Beaten by Laois ( despite been overwhelming favourites) (Dublin were beaten by Armagh in round 3 of the qualifiers)

2004 Beaten by Westmeath in the leinster Quarters! With Paddy Christie taking 45's!
(Dublin very lucky to be drawn with Leitrim, London, Longford and Roscommon in the Qualifiers!)
Dublin then well beaten by Kerry in the AI Q final.

Then the poor standard of leinster began which guaranteed dublin a quarter final place following leinster wins
2005 Beaten by Tyrone Q Finals following a replay
2006 Beaten by Mayo S Finals
2007 Beaten by Kerry S Finals
2008 Hammered by Tyrone Q Finals
2009 Hammered by Kerry Q Finals (startled earwigs)
2010 Beaten by Cork S Finals
(Lucky to get there having to through the back door following bad loss to meath in leinster semis - beat armagh by two points round three qualifiers and were lucky to be drawn with Louth round 4 qualifiers)

2011 won (10 minute come back against the run of play- Kerry better team - last gasp Dublin point)

2012 Beaten by Mayo S Final (Shock loss)

2013 won (by two points)

Look at these results did the money help? Look at teams that beat Dublin. Look at the nature of the wins and losses.

In reality what really helps Dublin now is the championship structure and the poor standard of leinster.
Ironically, when it suited the Media the poor standard of Leinster was used as the excuse why Dublin did not win Sam from 2005-2009. They were not been tested etc. But the reality was the players were not good enough.

To be a successful team there are two more important things before any amount of money.
1 Good Management
2 Talented Players

Your not good at backing up your own points. You give the example of the Premier League and Man Utd. Eh, Man City won it, but I suppose you'll argue the billionaire Sheikh and all the players he signed to bring City from obscurity had nothing to do with it?

As for Real/Barca, this year was a pure blip. It'll be back to normal next year. Real are still the best club in Europe. Golf isn't a team sport but I'm sure you'll find Tiger is probably richer than Rory and he hasn't done too bad.

As for Galway, the fact is that generally success at underage level translates to senior levels. Those Galway lads still have plenty of time to prove themselves yet. The Roscommon lads are coming to the fore now. Lets not forget the Dublin lads are coming into a team that were challenging in years previous for AI honours, teams like Galway were not. Tyrone had plenty of underage success before they won anything. Kerry won All Ireland's at underage before they came to the fore.

Interesting that you point towards good management again but fail to acknowledge my point about Dublin players having coaches that players down the country just don't have. Take for example Eugene Keating here in Cavan. Arguably our best player is paid by a Dublin club to train their young players. Other players like Begley from Laois are doing the same. The cash isn't there for them to stay in their own counties and develop players there.

You point above to Dublin's alleged poor run. Reaching the QFs near every year and the semis a few years. Must be a hard run that. Ask someone from Tipp or even my own county of Cavan how we'd like it!!! We were losing our heads last year about a match in Croke Park at last!!!!

Yet you try to argue money doesn't matter. I look forward to your next response. Anyone who tries to argue that money doesn't matter and gives the Premier League and soccer in general as an example is onto a real winner.

Twigster · 01-06-2014 4:24pm

ultrapercy wrote: »

You are very wrong when you say money does not guarantee success. In sport at the top level money absolutely guarantees success.

Not necessarily, Liverpool are ahead of Man Utd on spending over the course of the premier league. (Third behind chelsea and citeh) No comparison at all over the last 20 years.

Lemlin · 01-06-2014 4:37pm

Twigster wrote: »

Not necessarily, Liverpool are ahead of Man Utd on spending over the course of the premier league. (Third behind chelsea and citeh) No comparison at all over the last 20 years.

How much of that money at Liverpool has been in the last three/four years?

The arguments to the contrary in soccer are endless. City, Chelsea, Monaco, Real....

rpurfield · 01-06-2014 6:17pm

I think there is no arguing that the money needed to be invested in the biggest population area when it was decided to do it or Gaelic Games were going to be a distant third behind soccer and rugby so it was the correct call to do so at the time.

However for anyone to say it has had no bearing on Dublin moving streets ahead of anyone in Leinster and probably the country is being naive. Sure its a talented bunch of players, but they've had the benefit of top class full time coaches for years, along with the extra money the county board pull in in sponsorship to give them the use of top class facilities and access to top class backroom people as mentioned above.

The other factor with Dublin's success is the fact it is the capital city. Lads can get jobs easier, college is on their doorstep, even travelling for training is easier than some player needing to get from the very tip of Kerry into Killarney for example. Thats not an issue for a debate on money but I honestly think its part of it.

beggars_bush · 01-06-2014 6:23pm

Lemlin wrote: »

How much of that money at Liverpool has been in the last three/four years?

The arguments to the contrary in soccer are endless. City, Chelsea, Monaco, Real....

I think you'll find Liverpool have always squandered money

Lemlin · 01-06-2014 11:29pm

beggars_bush wrote: »

I think you'll find Liverpool have always squandered money

They generally didn't spend huge amounts until the last few years was more my point.

andyman · 02-06-2014 5:23am

I for one would love to see €1m a year pumped into Kilkenny football.

Not a dig at Kilkenny football like usual, just it'd be great for the county and the country to see Kilkenny footballers excel instead of being laughing stocks.

beggars_bush · 02-06-2014 9:29am

Lemlin wrote: »

They generally didn't spend huge amounts until the last few years was more my point.

You're funny.
In 2000-2001 they spent €30 million.
1998-99 €35 million

You've swallowed the club line about not being big spenders in comparison to other clubs

Lemlin · 02-06-2014 5:06pm

beggars_bush wrote: »

You're funny.
In 2000-2001 they spent €30 million.
1998-99 €35 million

You've swallowed the club line about not being big spenders in comparison to other clubs

How am I funny? This isn't the soccer forum.

They spent 70 million in 07/08, 80 in 10/11 and 50 or near it the three years since. That makes 30 million look like small change and proves my point that their big spending has been the past few years.

I fail to see what Liverpool squandering money has to do with Dublin GAA tbh.

Twigster · 02-06-2014 5:38pm

Lemlin wrote: »

I fail to see what Liverpool squandering money has to do with Dublin GAA tbh.

The original point was made that spending big money = success.

Lemlin · 02-06-2014 8:24pm

Twigster wrote: »

The original point was made that spending big money = success.

And Liverpool haven't spent as much as City or Chelsea who have both bought success.

For anyone arguing that money doesn't equal success, soccer is about the worst sport you can pick.

Limestone1 · 02-06-2014 9:33pm

Twigster wrote: »

Not necessarily, Liverpool are ahead of Man Utd on spending over the course of the premier league. (Third behind chelsea and citeh) No comparison at all over the last 20 years.

ahem ... point not proven - so over 20 years these 4 clubs have spent more than everybody else .... and between them they have won more than everybody else ???

beggars_bush · 02-06-2014 10:51pm

Limestone1 wrote: »

ahem ... point not proven - so over 20 years these 4 clubs have spent more than everybody else .... and between them they have won more than everybody else ???

How many titles have liverpool won?

Dublin's funding is only applicable the last 7 years, and due to the lack of transfer system in GAA the players have been developed in the county.

The huge funding available has allowed them to develop good young athletes and put big resources into player development

gormdubhgorm · 05-06-2014 9:25pm

Lemlin wrote: »

Your not good at backing up your own points. You give the example of the Premier League and Man Utd. Eh, Man City won it, but I suppose you'll argue the billionaire Sheikh and all the players he signed to bring City from obscurity had nothing to do with it?

As for Real/Barca, this year was a pure blip. It'll be back to normal next year. Real are still the best club in Europe. Golf isn't a team sport but I'm sure you'll find Tiger is probably richer than Rory and he hasn't done too bad.

As for Galway, the fact is that generally success at underage level translates to senior levels. Those Galway lads still have plenty of time to prove themselves yet. The Roscommon lads are coming to the fore now. Lets not forget the Dublin lads are coming into a team that were challenging in years previous for AI honours, teams like Galway were not. Tyrone had plenty of underage success before they won anything. Kerry won All Ireland's at underage before they came to the fore.

Interesting that you point towards good management again but fail to acknowledge my point about Dublin players having coaches that players down the country just don't have. Take for example Eugene Keating here in Cavan. Arguably our best player is paid by a Dublin club to train their young players. Other players like Begley from Laois are doing the same. The cash isn't there for them to stay in their own counties and develop players there.

You point above to Dublin's alleged poor run. Reaching the QFs near every year and the semis a few years. Must be a hard run that. Ask someone from Tipp or even my own county of Cavan how we'd like it!!! We were losing our heads last year about a match in Croke Park at last!!!!

Yet you try to argue money doesn't matter. I look forward to your next response. Anyone who tries to argue that money doesn't matter and gives the Premier League and soccer in general as an example is onto a real winner.

OK in fairness to you I did not articulate my example with man city and other foreign sports very well. What I meant was that the favorites do not always win.
Also Dublin has the largest population in the country. This must be funded. Between 1963 to 1974 Dublin were a laughing stock at football. In the hurling Dublin have improved dramatically. The GAA needs a strong Dublin team in order to bring glamour and reflected glory to other teams.
A strong Dublin team means a strong GAA simple as that.

It is not as if Dublin can buy players like in other sports. Granted there are three non-dubs in the Dublin hurling county panel they are the exception rather then the rule.

Mick O'Dwyer's Kildare team was the only manager that tried a large infux of "foreign" players. The most recent was Kildare's poaching of your County's best hurler

for their football team.

I think that the best solution is that GAA coaches in Dublin travel to so called weaker counties trying to make a go of it to assist them. Like Laois in the hurling and Carlow in the football. Seminars etc could be arranged. Plus more money should be focused on these type of counties as well as the current funding Dublin gets. So it would be a self fulfilling circle. Dublin's success will help others the more they are funded. Facilities, coaches etc.

As for saying that Dublin didn't have a poor run of form. You should read my post again Dublin could not even win leinster 96-01.
Dublin were always one of the perennial favorites for Sam built up for a fall. Then they would lose. The expectation in Dublin was/is a bit different then Cavan with all due respect. Plus I beleive the championship structure is stacked against Cavan and favorable towards Dublin.

iDave · 06-06-2014 8:06am

andyman wrote: »

I for one would love to see €1m a year pumped into Kilkenny football.

Not a dig at Kilkenny football like usual, just it'd be great for the county and the country to see Kilkenny footballers excel instead of being laughing stocks.

Football doesn't need Kilkenny. I'd rather a million was thrown at hurling for counties at Christy Ring level.

nice_guy80 · 06-06-2014 8:45am

iDave wrote: »

Football doesn't need Kilkenny. I'd rather a million was thrown at hurling for counties at Christy Ring level.

there ya go.
Kerry, Down, Meath, Kildare could all come up to the standard of Laois within 5 years.

Lemlin · 06-06-2014 9:10am

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

OK in fairness to you I did not articulate my example with man city and other foreign sports very well. What I meant was that the favorites do not always win.
Also Dublin has the largest population in the country. This must be funded. Between 1963 to 1974 Dublin were a laughing stock at football. In the hurling Dublin have improved dramatically. The GAA needs a strong Dublin team in order to bring glamour and reflected glory to other teams.
A strong Dublin team means a strong GAA simple as that.

It is not as if Dublin can buy players like in other sports. Granted there are three non-dubs in the Dublin hurling county panel they are the exception rather then the rule.

Mick O'Dwyer's Kildare team was the only manager that tried a large infux of "foreign" players. The most recent was Kildare's poaching of your County's best hurler for their football team.

I think that the best solution is that GAA coaches in Dublin travel to so called weaker counties trying to make a go of it to assist them. Like Laois in the hurling and Carlow in the football. Seminars etc could be arranged. Plus more money should be focused on these type of counties as well as the current funding Dublin gets. So it would be a self fulfilling circle. Dublin's success will help others the more they are funded. Facilities, coaches etc.

As for saying that Dublin didn't have a poor run of form. You should read my post again Dublin could not even win leinster 96-00.
Dublin were always one of the perennial favorites for Sam built up for a fall. Then they would lose. The expectation in Dublin was/is a bit different then Cavan with all due respect. Plus I beleive the championship structure is stacked against Cavan and favorable towards Dublin.

I think you're moving away from the point. My problem is not that Dublin are favourites and I'd agree the favourites do not always win. The point of this thread is that money talks and sports like soccer and teams like Man City prove that. Dublin does have the largest population in the country but that also means that it has the benefits of that population. On another thread, Dublin's super clubs have already been mentioned. Dublin also has a huge amount of businesses operating in it so it is far easier to source sponsorship. I don't have a problem with Dublin being funded properly but I do have a problem with it being funded to the detriment of other counties.

Look at Leinster for example. Croke Park is amazing but after that what decent pitch do you have? On the discussion about quarter finals being held around the country rather than in Croke Park, the first item that came up was a shortage of decent pitches in other counties in Leinster. That's because Croke Park has been invested in to the hilt. And I'm waiting for someone to come back and say that Croke Park isn't Dublin's "home" ground. At this stage, that argument is ludicrous to me.

I find the rest of your post quite condescencing - "GAA coaches in Dublin travel to weaker counties". Why not just give the funding to the other counties to employ their own coaches? Why should Eugene Keating have to leave Cavan or Begley have to leave Laois? Let the best players coach in their own counties.

Even if Dublin could not win Leinster, they were still competing. Their fans were still getting regular matches. People say that Dublin have only won three All Irelands in twenty years but the fact is they've spent 20 years competing in every season. Kerry are just about the only other team who could say that and it now looks like their run may be coming to an end.

The other problem is that this has only started becoming a big problem in the last ten years. I do believe that the GAA do need todo something to invest money elsewhere or we're going to be left with a poor football championship each year.

bruschi · 06-06-2014 9:15am

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

There was not a word of this type of thing between the years 1996 to 2010 inclusive...I wonder why that was!?

I think you'll find there was plenty of people critical of the special treatment the Dublin funding got for their hurling when other counties, with much lesser sponsorship and other funds were struggling and drifting away. I have posted myself on here about it too. Why should Dublin hurling be given €5m+ direct from the GAA coffers when my own county that is struggling for any sort of funds and is dwindling away.

Its great that Dublin hurling has seen a resurgence, but it shouldnt be at the expense of other counties.

that post probably sounds whingy and jealous, not intended that way, as Wexford have far more issues than just funding alone. But funding would help. If we could employ more full time coaches and have more money to be spent on underage and school training like Dublin did, it would be fantastic.

Lemlin · 06-06-2014 9:19am

bruschi wrote: »

I think you'll find there was plenty of people critical of the special treatment the Dublin funding got for their hurling when other counties, with much lesser sponsorship and other funds were struggling and drifting away. I have posted myself on here about it too. Why should Dublin hurling be given €5m+ direct from the GAA coffers when my own county that is struggling for any sort of funds and is dwindling away.

Its great that Dublin hurling has seen a resurgence, but it shouldnt be at the expense of other counties.

that post probably sounds whingy and jealous, not intended that way, as Wexford have far more issues than just funding alone. But funding would help. If we could employ more full time coaches and have more money to be spent on underage and school training like Dublin did, it would be fantastic.

Don't worry, according to gormdubhgorm it'd be a great idea for Dublin to send their fully paid and funded coaches to "weaker counties" :rolleyes:

Floppybits · 06-06-2014 9:34am

The GAA didnt just turn around in 2005 and say we are going to pump all our money into Dublin. What happened was the Dublin County Board got their act together and went to the GAA with a good business/coaching plan that they wanted to set up in the county starting at grass roots level and this is why they got the funding. They also had the buy in of all the clubs in the county as well.

Unfortunately alot of counties need to take a long hard look at themselves and their county boards and ask themselves have they got their acts together and I bet the answer is no they havent. I believe now that the Dublin County board and giving advice to other counties on not just how to set up the coaching structure with in their counties but also how to go about making the submissions to the GAA for the funding to put the structures in place.

So it is up to those counties to get the finger out and come up with proper plans and proposals for improving Gaelic games in those counties. There is no point asking the GAA for funding and giving them some proposal on the back of cigerette pack or something put together in the car park outside Croke park 10 mintues before they go in. I suppose it is easier for those counties to sick back and say Dublin get everything instead of putting in a bit of effort and go about getting the funding themselves.

There is no point in the GAA funding just one county that would be like shooting yourself in the foot and kill the games in this country. I am sure other counties will get the funding if they put the effort in and that will see the funding to Dublin cut and that is the way it should be. The GAA are looking for a more competitive Competitions and the only way by doing that is funding the weaker counties but its not a one way street, the GAA are not going to throw money into a black hole.

nice_guy80 · 06-06-2014 9:50am

Floppybits wrote: »

The GAA didnt just turn around in 2005 and say we are going to pump all our money into Dublin. What happened was the Dublin County Board got their act together and went to the GAA with a good business/coaching plan that they wanted to set up in the county starting at grass roots level and this is why they got the funding. They also had the buy in of all the clubs in the county as well.

Unfortunately alot of counties need to take a long hard look at themselves and their county boards and ask themselves have they got their acts together and I bet the answer is no they havent. I believe now that the Dublin County board and giving advice to other counties on not just how to set up the coaching structure with in their counties but also how to go about making the submissions to the GAA for the funding to put the structures in place.

So it is up to those counties to get the finger out and come up with proper plans and proposals for improving Gaelic games in those counties. There is no point asking the GAA for funding and giving them some proposal on the back of cigerette pack or something put together in the car park outside Croke park 10 mintues before they go in. I suppose it is easier for those counties to sick back and say Dublin get everything instead of putting in a bit of effort and go about getting the funding themselves.

There is no point in the GAA funding just one county that would be like shooting yourself in the foot and kill the games in this country. I am sure other counties will get the funding if they put the effort in and that will see the funding to Dublin cut and that is the way it should be. The GAA are looking for a more competitive Competitions and the only way by doing that is funding the weaker counties but its not a one way street, the GAA are not going to throw money into a black hole.

Other counties have been applying and seeking funding for years.
Never really get anything extra

bruschi · 06-06-2014 9:50am

Floppybits wrote: »

The GAA didnt just turn around in 2005 and say we are going to pump all our money into Dublin. What happened was the Dublin County Board got their act together and went to the GAA with a good business/coaching plan that they wanted to set up in the county starting at grass roots level and this is why they got the funding. They also had the buy in of all the clubs in the county as well.

Unfortunately alot of counties need to take a long hard look at themselves and their county boards and ask themselves have they got their acts together and I bet the answer is no they havent. I believe now that the Dublin County board and giving advice to other counties on not just how to set up the coaching structure with in their counties but also how to go about making the submissions to the GAA for the funding to put the structures in place.

So it is up to those counties to get the finger out and come up with proper plans and proposals for improving Gaelic games in those counties. There is no point asking the GAA for funding and giving them some proposal on the back of cigerette pack or something put together in the car park outside Croke park 10 mintues before they go in. I suppose it is easier for those counties to sick back and say Dublin get everything instead of putting in a bit of effort and go about getting the funding themselves.

There is no point in the GAA funding just one county that would be like shooting yourself in the foot and kill the games in this country. I am sure other counties will get the funding if they put the effort in and that will see the funding to Dublin cut and that is the way it should be. The GAA are looking for a more competitive Competitions and the only way by doing that is funding the weaker counties but its not a one way street, the GAA are not going to throw money into a black hole.

sorry, but the vast majority of that is a load of pants. plenty of counties have their house in order, but dont get the funding that Dublin got. what Dublin got was a once off, and I doubt it will ever be done again, Its not like it was a bursary available to put forward a proposal to and to try win.

Other counties do get funding, an agreed amount that is shared equally across the board, the point being that this funding Dublin got was well over and above what was the standard norms, and will not happen again. What made Dublin so special that it was the only county to have ever got a funding package like that?

blue note · 06-06-2014 9:55am

I think the GAA did decide to pump money into Dublin and I think it was a great move. They dominate the county as the choice sport for kids. And the media follow Dublin like no-one else, so Dublin being successful means massive exposure for the games, which does indirectly help the sports in the other counties.

However, I think we have gotten to the stage where they need to look at where else could benefit from that sort of expenditure now. Offaly have drifted away shockingly and don't look like they have the structures in place at all to get back to competing for a Leinster title. There is still interest in the county, if the GAA could make a push there they could bring the county back within 5 or 10 years. Then the fringe counties like Westmeath, Carlow, Laois. There's clearly interest there - it would be great if we could build on it and have more competitive teams in the championship.

My own county Waterford really got their act together in recent years and you can see that coming through at intercounty level now (instead of the county drifting into the background when our last team retired). Some counties could do with a hand to get there.

nice_guy80 · 06-06-2014 10:03am

bruschi wrote: »

sorry, but the vast majority of that is a load of pants. plenty of counties have their house in order, but dont get the funding that Dublin got. what Dublin got was a once off, and I doubt it will ever be done again, Its not like it was a bursary available to put forward a proposal to and to try win.

Other counties do get funding, an agreed amount that is shared equally across the board, the point being that this funding Dublin got was well over and above what was the standard norms, and will not happen again. What made Dublin so special that it was the only county to have ever got a funding package like that?

Er, they still get €1 million a year

Prop Joe · 06-06-2014 10:06am

blue note wrote: »

I think the GAA did decide to pump money into Dublin and I think it was a great move. They dominate the county as the choice sport for kids. And the media follow Dublin like no-one else, so Dublin being successful means massive exposure for the games, which does indirectly help the sports in the other counties.

However, I think we have gotten to the stage where they need to look at where else could benefit from that sort of expenditure now. Offaly have drifted away shockingly and don't look like they have the structures in place at all to get back to competing for a Leinster title. There is still interest in the county, if the GAA could make a push there they could bring the county back within 5 or 10 years. Then the fringe counties like Westmeath, Carlow, Laois. There's clearly interest there - it would be great if we could build on it and have more competitive teams in the championship.

I think Dublin was a great move also but now it's time to take that template and push it into Kildare/Offaly/Laois region and maybe something similar in Leitrim/Longford/Sligo/Fermanagh.

It would be an aim to make all Kildare/Offaly/Laois competing strongly for provincials in both codes. (Maybe an AI for Kildare in football & one for Offaly in hurling should be the aim)

Leitrim/Longford/Sligo/Fermanagh aim should be Div2 football and a provincial title each in football. While you would expect there hurlers to be competitive in Christy Ring

bruschi · 06-06-2014 10:10am

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Er, they still get €1 million a year

I meant the deal itself was a one off, when it ends or how long they keep getting paid wasnt what I meant.

klairondavis · 06-06-2014 10:38am

The suggestion that other counties falling behind is down to a lack of effort and organisation is slightly disingenuous.

Many counties (particularly in Leinster) are putting huge work into their underage structures in recent years. It does require huge effort and organisation but it also requires massive resources.

Speaking from a Kildare pov here, I know our county board gets a lot of stick over a number of high profile recent episodes and rightly so too. However to be fair to them, there is sterling work going on with underage development squads in both codes. Kildare were Leinster minor football champions (first time since 1991) and Leinster u21 football champions (first time since 2008) last year. In hurling, our minors have beaten Carlow and Westmeath in championship hurling over the last two years. Our u21s were finalists in the All Ireland u21B championship in the last two years. I have two nephews who are on a hurling development squad who have beaten Laois and Offaly this year.

These improvements do not come cheap and it's probably a lot of the reason why various counties are finding themselves in financial difficulty. They're left with a decision either to pump resources into their underage structure or save money while getting left behind on the field of play.

Kildare built a centre of excellence at Hawkfield for €3.5m that opened over three years ago. This facility benefits all Kildare underage teams in both codes. €1.5m of the cost was still outstanding last year and that debt is serviced by an annual levy on ALL Kildare GAA clubs. That's money that clubs will have to sacrifice from areas like games development. Kildare GAA also opened a custom built GAA gym in Newbridge last week for the use of all county teams. I know the Brady Family covered some of the cost for this but I can't imagine it came cheap and no doubt the county board have a lot invested in the facility. I worry that this is money that Kildare GAA simply does not have and I say that primarily as a club man rather than a county supporter. The clubs need investment to help promote the games especially at a time when there's a growing young population due to inward migration. The situation is worse in most other counties who are losing numbers due to outward migration.

Money won't solve the problems that many counties face with their underage structures but there is no denying that it is a massive assistance in helping things along. I think a lot of Dublin people construe this topic as 'Dublin bashing' which I don't believe to be the case. Most people can appreciate the great work that has gone into Dublin's underage structures but they look then at their own county and see how difficult it is to develop similarly effective structures on a fraction of the budget.

nice_guy80 · 06-06-2014 12:27pm

klairondavis wrote: »

The suggestion that other counties falling behind is down to a lack of effort and organisation is slightly disingenuous.

Many counties (particularly in Leinster) are putting huge work into their underage structures in recent years. It does require huge effort and organisation but it also requires massive resources.

Speaking from a Kildare pov here, I know our county board gets a lot of stick over a number of high profile recent episodes and rightly so too. However to be fair to them, there is sterling work going on with underage development squads in both codes. Kildare were Leinster minor football champions (first time since 1991) and Leinster u21 football champions (first time since 2008) last year. In hurling, our minors have beaten Carlow and Westmeath in championship hurling over the last two years. Our u21s were finalists in the All Ireland u21B championship in the last two years. I have two nephews who are on a hurling development squad who have beaten Laois and Offaly this year.

These improvements do not come cheap and it's probably a lot of the reason why various counties are finding themselves in financial difficulty. They're left with a decision either to pump resources into their underage structure or save money while getting left behind on the field of play.

Kildare built a centre of excellence at Hawkfield for €3.5m that opened over three years ago. This facility benefits all Kildare underage teams in both codes. €1.5m of the cost was still outstanding last year and that debt is serviced by an annual levy on ALL Kildare GAA clubs. That's money that clubs will have to sacrifice from areas like games development. Kildare GAA also opened a custom built GAA gym in Newbridge last week for the use of all county teams. I know the Brady Family covered some of the cost for this but I can't imagine it came cheap and no doubt the county board have a lot invested in the facility. I worry that this is money that Kildare GAA simply does not have and I say that primarily as a club man rather than a county supporter. The clubs need investment to help promote the games especially at a time when there's a growing young population due to inward migration. The situation is worse in most other counties who are losing numbers due to outward migration.

Money won't solve the problems that many counties face with their underage structures but there is no denying that it is a massive assistance in helping things along. I think a lot of Dublin people construe this topic as 'Dublin bashing' which I don't believe to be the case. Most people can appreciate the great work that has gone into Dublin's underage structures but they look then at their own county and see how difficult it is to develop similarly effective structures on a fraction of the budget.

Dublin also benefit by piggybacking on the excellent facilities already in the capital - commercial gyms, third level sports facilities empty during the summer - TCD, UCD, Blanch IT, DCU

Lemlin · 06-06-2014 1:41pm

I think the bottom line is that people understand Dublin are going to get a higher amount when it comes to funding due to their increased population.

That said, this higher amount should be on a percentage basis and should not be as extortionate as it has been.

The GAA in Dublin is now growing and healthy. Perhaps it's time money was spent in other counties, particularly those who continue to struggle at two codes.

Leitrim's best footballer is playing his club football in Blanchardstown. Why not bring him home and get him coaching kids. That's where I'd like to see funds go.

ArielAtom · 06-06-2014 1:48pm

While it may not be intended as Dublin bashing it is coming across as just that. I am heavily involved at underage level and see the hard work being put in by volunteers, they are not getting paid. If I require new balls or sliothars I must have raised the money as part of one of the many fundraisers we as a club undertake each year to meet our running costs, that includes paying an underage coach.

Dublin did put together a serious "businees plan" and hence received the funding. Their template should be followed by other counties.

blue note · 06-06-2014 1:54pm

ArielAtom wrote: »

While it may not be intended as Dublin bashing it is coming across as just that. I am heavily involved at underage level and see the hard work being put in by volunteers, they are not getting paid. If I require new balls or sliothars I must have raised the money as part of one of the many fundraisers we as a club undertake each year to meet our running costs, that includes paying an underage coach.

Dublin did put together a serious "businees plan" and hence received the funding. Their template should be followed by other counties.

I don't think it looks like Dublin bashing at all. Stop being so sensitive!

ArielAtom · 06-06-2014 2:01pm

blue note wrote: »

I don't think it looks like Dublin bashing at all. Stop being so sensitive!

But it does come across as that. If these other counties focused on getting funding instead of whinging it would make more sense. I a sensitive soul really!!!!!

blue note · 06-06-2014 2:12pm

ArielAtom wrote: »

But it does come across as that. If these other counties focused on getting funding instead of whinging it would make more sense. I a sensitive soul really!!!!!

But most people, including Dubs, agree that there has been a deliberate effort by the GAA to strengthen Dublin GAA and as a result strengthen the organisation as a whole. Most people agree that this has worked and has been a good thing.

But now that it has worked, it's time to level the playing field again and either invest in other counties in a similar way, or to not pick out particular counties for special funding.

Lemlin · 06-06-2014 2:24pm

ArielAtom wrote: »

But it does come across as that. If these other counties focused on getting funding instead of whinging it would make more sense. I a sensitive soul really!!!!!

So you think Cavan or Leitrim GAA would be handed 1 million a year? It's easy for you to categorise something as "whingeing" when you're on the right side of it.

ArielAtom wrote: »

While it may not be intended as Dublin bashing it is coming across as just that. I am heavily involved at underage level and see the hard work being put in by volunteers, they are not getting paid. If I require new balls or sliothars I must have raised the money as part of one of the many fundraisers we as a club undertake each year to meet our running costs, that includes paying an underage coach.

Dublin did put together a serious "businees plan" and hence received the funding. Their template should be followed by other counties.

But does your club have a county star coach, like many, who is being paid? Other clubs wouldn't even have the funds to pay an underage coach. Some clubs in West Cavan for example are struggling to field teams because most of their team is in London/Australia/Canada.

slingerz · 06-06-2014 2:27pm

blue note wrote: »

But most people, including Dubs, agree that there has been a deliberate effort by the GAA to strengthen Dublin GAA and as a result strengthen the organisation as a whole. Most people agree that this has worked and has been a good thing.

But now that it has worked, it's time to level the playing field again and either invest in other counties in a similar way, or to not pick out particular counties for special funding.

Exactly. The funding for grassroots coaching far surpasses the other counties even when scaled back to relative playing numbers.

A more even approach to funding for grassroots coaching where the weaker counties would receive more resources that the already strong counties in each code to make sure that there are more counties being competitive and successful at senior intercounty level

ArielAtom · 06-06-2014 2:29pm

Gents, Its all about how the submittal for funding is made. I am in agreement that other counties need funding, but the GAA are not going to hand over money to counties without a sound plan being in place. Get the plans drawn up and submit them, then when going for the interview put your best foot forward, this may not be the Chairman or Sec. It could be a member who has good negoiating/presentation skillls to back up the submittal.

Dublin are not just handed money!!

Lemlin · 06-06-2014 2:53pm

ArielAtom wrote: »

Gents, Its all about how the submittal for funding is made. I am in agreement that other counties need funding, but the GAA are not going to hand over money to counties without a sound plan being in place. Get the plans drawn up and submit them, then when going for the interview put your best foot forward, this may not be the Chairman or Sec. It could be a member who has good negoiating/presentation skillls to back up the submittal.

Dublin are not just handed money!!

So you think that no other county has submitted a business plan for funding? Bear in mind that most county boards are full of successful entrepreneurs.

Cavan for example have had great success at underage level. The plan was initiated, funded and designed by people in the county themselves. They could come up with a plan like this yet can't submit a proper business plan to the GAA?

Have you any proof whatsoever that no other county have submitted in-depth business plans like Dublin?

blue note · 06-06-2014 3:01pm

ArielAtom wrote: »

Gents, Its all about how the submittal for funding is made. I am in agreement that other counties need funding, but the GAA are not going to hand over money to counties without a sound plan being in place. Get the plans drawn up and submit them, then when going for the interview put your best foot forward, this may not be the Chairman or Sec. It could be a member who has good negoiating/presentation skillls to back up the submittal.

Dublin are not just handed money!!

It wasn't just a good business plan. It was GAA strategy as an organisation as well. Dublin / the GAA used the money exceptionally well to their credit. But that level of investment in the midlands, or in Ulster hurling would have done great things, but not it wouldn't have done much to help the organisation dominate Irish sport, whereas investment in Dublin has done.

Dublin funding ‘too successful’

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