The Irish are obsessed with buying a house

horsesfc88

In Every other country in the world people have no problems living in apartments(often cheaper and in locations close to amenities ) but the Irish are obsessed with houses and will often pay most of their wages to live in one?

Why?

I'd much rather buy a nice apartment that i can easily afford and still have most my money left over at the end of the month to enjoy,travel etc than try keep up with the jones's

Why the obsession with houses ?

Montroseee

It's really not an Irish phenomenon at all, complete ignorance to say otherwise.

horsesfc88

Montroseee wrote: »

It's really not an Irish phenomenon at all, complete ignorance to say otherwise.

I take it you never lived anywhere else other than Ireland

fussyonion

Because people like the idea of the space, the numerous bedrooms..especially if they're a young couple and going to have a family..the garden, the feeling that you own something substantial and can pass it down to your children.
It's not unusual.

I live in a council home but I would love to own my own house one day.

Frank Lee Midere

Montroseee wrote: »

It's really not an Irish phenomenon at all, complete ignorance to say otherwise.

Houses with gardens are rare in most European cities.

dazberry

horsesfc88 wrote: »

I'd much rather buy a nice apartment that i can easily afford and still have most my money left over at the end of the month to enjoy,travel etc than try keep up with the jones's

Why the obsession with houses ?

Possible because there are very few nice apartments to begin with.

D.

.jacksparrow.

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Houses with gardens are rare in most European cities.

Same in Dublin, when you venture out into the outskirts of the city you have them, like most cities in Europe.

punisher5112

Because someone wants a home that they won't be kicked out of by pushed up rents or the LL turning around and saying oh by the way im moving back into my property or putting it up for sale.


It would be ok if it had a system like other countries but don't see that happening.

Rents are too high and not enough properties.

Op you need to read into the issue better.

Bigcheeze

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Houses with gardens are rare in most European cities.

Source?

Or is it just the usual stuff trotted out like "the Irish are obsessed with owning their own home"....while the actual data shows we are at the average European level for home ownership.

Sun in Capri

I think in many other countries in Europe there is much more security renting property than there is in Ireland. Also from my experience, in Europe a lot of the properties are un furnished and the tenant can do them up the way they would like with lots of of very long term leases which gives security. In Europe there are rules regarding rents, so you are unlikely to get notice of a huge hike in rent, like can happen here.

If you have a deposit and get mortage approval, why would you pay rent if your mortgage would be the same per month.

horsesfc88

punisher5112 wrote: »

Because someone wants a home that they won't be kicked out of by pushed up rents or the LL turning around and saying oh by the way im moving back into my property or putting it up for sale.


It would be ok if it had a system like other countries but don't see that happening.

Rents are too high and not enough properties.

Op you need to read into the issue better.

You need to read my post again

I never said anything about rent, i said i would rather BUY a nice apartment

meeeeh

Density of population in Ireland is a lot lower than in most European countries. (And half of that space is taken iver by Alps )  It is easier to build houses if you have more space. There probably should be more apartment living in cities but apartments in decent areas can be just as expensive as houses. Very often the choice between house or apartment when buying or building is more of a lifestyle decision than financial decision.

Btw I am willing to bet that a lot of people on Continent would love to have the space people here enjoy.

horsesfc88

Bigcheeze wrote: »

Source?

Or is it just the usual stuff trotted out like "the Irish are obsessed with owning their own home"....while the actual data shows we are at the average European level for home ownership.

Not really look at the stats again

You do realize we have a small population Einstein ?

Atlantic Dawn

Dublin is very sparcely populated compared to other European cities, there is enough empty land to build the same number of houses again complete with gardens within the county of Dublin. Land prices are not in line with what they actually should be, it's all speculation, council planning and general rip off of the house buyer at every opportunity.

Glenbhoy

meeeeh wrote: »

Density of population in Ireland is a lot lower than in most European countries. (And half of that space is taken iver by Alps )  It is easier to build houses if you have more space. There probably should be more apartment living in cities but apartments in decent areas can be just as expensive as houses. Very often the choice between house or apartment when buying or building is more of a lifestyle decision than financial decision.

Btw I am willing to bet that a lot of people on Continent would love to have the space people here enjoy.

In my experience of living on the continent, houses with gardens are relatively rare in areas which are in anyway urban. Even in rural area's apartment living in very small towns is common. People do tend to own the property they live in though and certainly aspire to in much the same way as Irish people do regardless of the greater security of tenure.
One thing, anecdotally (based on a pretty small sample) people I have spoken to on the subject of space don't actually aspire to have greater space, people tend towards what they know I guess.

ChewChew

I bought a lovely house, in a lovely estate in a lovely town.... Why? Because I like it.... Because its what I want..... I want to spend my money on my mortgage etc but I do this for me, not to "keep up with the jones" as you so ignorantly put it. I don't like apartments.... But that's my choice. This op is pretty I'll informed and stupid.

horsesfc88

ChewChew wrote: »

I bought a lovely house, in a lovely estate in a lovely town.... Why? Because I like it.... Because its what I want..... I want to spend my money on my mortgage etc but I do this for me, not to "keep up with the jones" as you so ignorantly put it. I don't like apartments.... But that's my choice. This op is pretty I'll informed and stupid.

Lovely Town? Kildare? Really

Doesn't sound like you bought it out of choice.

More like you just can't afford to buy property in the capital city

meeeeh

Glenbhoy wrote: »

In my experience of living on the continent, houses with gardens are relatively rare in areas which are in anyway urban. Even in rural area's apartment living in very small towns is common. People do tend to own the property they live in though and certainly aspire to in much the same way as Irish people do regardless of the greater security of tenure.
One thing, anecdotally (based on a pretty small sample) people I have spoken to on the subject of space don't actually aspire to have greater space, people tend towards what they know I guess.

A lot of this has to do with density of population. City centers definitely don't have as many one family houses but there are still plenty of them in suburbs and in villages. A lot of my friends might rent or even buy an apartment when younger and then build when they have families. Where I come from buying a house is uncommon but building one is very often done and the cost is very comparable to a flat.

ChewChew

horsesfc88 wrote: »

Lovely Town? Kildare? Really

Doesn't sound like you bought it out of choice.

More like you just can't afford to buy property in the capital city

I bought 100% out of choice, and my choice being that I do not now, nor will I ever want to live in the Capital City.

Bigcheeze

horsesfc88 wrote: »

Not really look at the stats again

You do realize we have a small population Einstein ?

What?

Alias G

horsesfc88 wrote: »

Not really look at the stats again

You do realize we have a small population Einstein ?

Maybe you could link these stats for us?

doolox

That home ownership is the preferred choice for most people. Irish people will need to adjust as jobs become more mobile and people have to move to where the work is throughout their lives.

There will need to be a quantum leap in terms and security of rents and what is allowed in terms of decor etc.

Captain Chaos

For me right now, paying a mortgage is cheaper than renting. So why rent. Cheaper to buy and I have my own property in later life as security.

horsesfc88

Captain Chaos wrote: »

For me right now, paying a mortgage is cheaper than renting. So why rent. Cheaper to buy and I have my own property in later life as security.

I never once mentioned rent in the post, why you got rent on the brain? Renty?

professore

I had a large - and i mean large - 2 bed 9th floor apartment in Antwerp, rent controlled, magnificent views of the city, underground parking, underground storage, large garden and playground just outside. 3 and 9 year leases available with single digit percentage increases. Was about 400 / month at the time. Try finding that here.

Oh and a full time concierge.

Kaizersoze81

OP have you seen the state of the apartments in ireland?
I lived in an apartment in holland for a while. Families lived in them. Public transport ran through the middle of them. They were high rise (10 stories I think), and of outstanding build quality with plenty of storage space.
Irish apartments are like cardboard boxes in comparison.

ted1

Bigcheeze wrote: »

Source?

Or is it just the usual stuff trotted out like "the Irish are obsessed with owning their own home"....while the actual data shows we are at the average European level for home ownership.

the same can be said about the original message.

the Irish rental system does not offer the same products as other countries.

in other countries you rent, unfurnished rent controlled places on long term basis. that doesn't happy here.

people like security, in Ireland renting does not offer that.

Bigcheeze

Kaizersoze81 wrote: »

OP have you seen the state of the apartments in ireland?
I lived in an apartment in holland for a while. Families lived in them. Public transport ran through the middle of them. They were high rise (10 stories I think), and of outstanding build quality with plenty of storage space.
Irish apartments are like cardboard boxes in comparison.

Holland is a postage stamp of land with 20 million people. They do that because they have to not because they want to. Those Dutch conurbations look depressing.

Kaizersoze81

Bigcheeze wrote: »

Holland is a postage stamp of land with 20 million people. They do that because they have to not because they want to. Those Dutch conurbations look depressing.

Not depressing at all. They're build to last, great build quality. Huge rooms with great views and facilities. I'd have no problem living in one here instead of a house.

The_Morrigan

OP if you can't engage with the other posters in a civilised tone I will close your thread.

This is your one and only warning.

iusedtoknow

I can't understand the need to race to buy a home. As one of the posters commented - it'd be nice to hand down to family etc...except that doesn't happen.

People are upsizing all the time to bigger homes - "getting on the ladder".

I've lived in a lot of places in Spain, and home ownership levels amongst older generations would be the same as in Ireland- however that is changing with people under 40. Most have seen the fluctuations in the property market and got scared. Likewise, the "new build" apartments, on the outskirts of towns like Barcelona, Madrid are literally in the back end of nowhere. You had 30/40 somethings racing to buy them as they didn't expect the crash. Now, they're being offered in many cases at 30% of their original purchase price.

I'm 30, and instead of racing to get a 3 bed semi in a suburb outside cork/dublin/galway - i've chosen to leave, have always rented and am investing my cash in different ways. Not having property has freed up our cash no ends, and we get good returns on our financial investments. It has also allowed us to follow our career opportunities and not worry about paying a mortgage.

Reekwind

According to these 2011 numbers Ireland ranks as 17 out of the 27 European countries surveyed for rates of home ownership. That is, the percentage of home owners is higher in Romania, Lithuania, Slovakia, Hungary, Bulgaria, Norway, Estonia, Spain, Latvia, Poland, Czech Republic, Greece, Portugal, Finland, Italy and Belgium. We're also just above Sweden, the UK, Denmark and the Netherlands in the rankings.

Yet we somehow hold this "obsession" up as yet more evidence that we're a backwards nation lagging well behind our more sophisticated European neighbours. If there was a table for national self-loathing then I'm pretty sure we'd top that one.

horsesfc88 wrote: »

Not really look at the stats again

You do realize we have a small population Einstein ?

What does that have to do with anything? Home ownership rates are expressed as a percentage figure.

zom

The_Morrigan wrote: »

OP if you can't engage with the other posters in a civilised tone I will close your thread.

This is your one and only warning.

Actually topic is quite interesting and there is no point to closing it because OP behaviour. Some people just mislead it as discussion about renting.

But there is quite good question why Irish don't like living in apartments?? I met recently few people who declared as apartment enemies and they all were bit posh South Dubliners which may be important at that point. There is only few residential block estates in Dublin South compare to North Dublin where it is quite popular. So probably it is status and snobism issue?

meeeeh

iusedtoknow wrote: »

I'm 30, and instead of racing to get a 3 bed semi in a suburb outside cork/dublin/galway - i've chosen to leave, have always rented and am investing my cash in different ways. Not having property has freed up our cash no ends, and we get good returns on our financial investments. It has also allowed us to follow our career opportunities and not worry about paying a mortgage.

Different things suit different people. There is little point renting tne property for 30 years if the mortgage on identical property down the road is cheaper. And there is no point buying if you can't be sure to stay in the same place for longer. What to do depends on people's needs and their means. Yes the property obsession is not good but for some of us makes perfect sense to buy or build.

The_Morrigan

zom wrote: »

Actually topic is quite interesting and there is no point to closing it because OP behaviour. Some people just mislead it as discussion about renting.

But there is quite good question why Irish don't like living in apartments?? I met recently few people who declared as apartment enemies and they all were bit posh South Dubliners which may be important at that point. There is only few residential block estates in Dublin South compare to North Dublin where it is quite popular. So probably it is status and snobism issue?

Don't argue a mod instruction on thread, it is against the charter.

Cookie_Monster

Part of the problem I imagine is the mess of mgt companies, joint ownership and fees that come with apartments and some estate versus a house.
I for one have no interest paying management fees or block insurance for something I don't actually own.

The_Conductor

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Dublin is very sparcely populated compared to other European cities, there is enough empty land to build the same number of houses again complete with gardens within the county of Dublin. Land prices are not in line with what they actually should be, it's all speculation, council planning and general rip off of the house buyer at every opportunity.

Dublin *is* very sparsely populated, compared to other European cities- however, this does not equate with their being lots of empty land, and the propensity to built a similar number of houses that currently exist, over again.

Land (and other assets) have speculative prices, based on current and perceived future supply and demand. The idea is not to rip off buyers- its simply to maximise asset prices. If you imagine its to rip off buyers- you could similarly say that mortgage holders who refuse to surrender tracker mortgages are ripping off banks- its the same concept.

The issue in Dublin is low density housing units. The solution- is not to create more and more standalone houses- its to build upwards- however, in a manner that high density units receive appropriate access to facilities and amenities in their immediate vicinities.

kippy

horsesfc88 wrote: »

In Every other country in the world people have no problems living in apartments(often cheaper and in locations close to amenities ) but the Irish are obsessed with houses and will often pay most of their wages to live in one?

Why?

I'd much rather buy a nice apartment that i can easily afford and still have most my money left over at the end of the month to enjoy,travel etc than try keep up with the jones's

Why the obsession with houses ?

Apartments are the worst possible space to live in long term. Especially the standards of apartment in this country and especially if you ever intend having a family.

Dandelion6

As others have noted it's very common in other countries for families to be raised in apartments in the city. There is a cultural bias here against apartment-living which you just don't find as much in other places. I think part of it is a famine hangover, people starved because they didn't own their own land, Irish mindset therefore became that you simply had to own your own land. Then it just became so normalised for people to own houses that owning an apartment instead just wasn't conceivable. Developers responded to this by only building apartments suitable for short-term or single living, reinforcing the cycle.

Shame because there are really nice apartment complexes in other countries and I would love to live in a similar one here but they just don't exist (and I say that as someone who lives in one of the nicer ones in Dublin).

drumswan

kippy wrote: »

Apartments are the worst possible space to live in long term.

What nonsense. Where I lived in in France everyone lives in apartments, even people with families. Nothing terrible happens.

kippy

drumswan wrote: »

What nonsense. Where I lived in in France everyone lives in apartments, even people with families. Nothing terrible happens.

So you'd prefer an apartment over a house no matter what the circumstances?

drumswan

kippy wrote: »

So you'd prefer an apartment over a house no matter what the circumstances?

Yes. Unless they start building 3 bed semis with gardens in Dublin 2 and renting them out for 1200 quid. Perhaps they could build them floating in the sky.

kippy

drumswan wrote: »

Yes. Unless they start building 3 bed semis with gardens in Dublin 2 and renting them out for 1200 quid. Perhaps they could build them floating in the sky.

So the circumstances are relevant.

The thing is houses are by far a better place to live, especially when living with kids, and especially in this country as there are no apartments that are built with family living in mind.

I would hate to bring up a family in any of the apartments in this country, cant speak for elsewhere.
Things that make things awkward.
1. Washing and drying clothes.
2. Storage space for buggies/toys/general items.
3. Parking.
4. Access - generally requiring a stairs or a lift, not easy with buggies.
5. Noise. Yeah everyone complains about noise in apartments, imagine there were other families living around you with kids crying etc or worse still your kids were the ones causing all the agro around the place when it came to noise.
6. Safe outside areas, most blocks simply dont have them.
Thats just off the top of my head.


The point is if you had a 3 bed semi and an apartment block sitting beside it, you wouldn't prefer the apartment as an option.

The key to providing quality accomodation for the populace is transport links and planning.
Apartments are alright for a certain demographic for a certain period of time but ultimately if people are planning on having a family they would prefer live in a house.

Rose35

I agree with OP in the fact that Irish people are obsessed with owning property and I have lived in two other
countries in my 20's, now in saying all that we currently own two houses here in Ireland, and it is for our sons future,
so hopefully he won't feel the pressure we felt growing up that we must own what we live in.

Mrs OBumble

kippy wrote: »

Apartments are the worst possible space to live in long term.

Can you explain why?

I would have thought that a single-story apartment a safe balcony and a in a block with no wooden floors, a well-maintained elevator, a playground and a ground-level storage locker for each apartment would be be far better than a two story semi-d with bad insulation.

(Now I agree there are few Irish apartments like that currently. But there's no reason that Ireland cannot do things properly.)

Mrs OBumble

kippy wrote: »

1. Washing and drying clothes.

I'm sorry, but a huge proportion of Irish homes do not have a separate utility room: the washing machine is in the kitchen, and they are no better than apartments in this regard.

(The look of disgust that I comes on foreigner's faces when I gently explain to them why most Irish homes have that rectangular plastic bowl in the kitchen-sink is truly priceless. I can use see "ehwww .. the dirty buggers" going through their minds.)


Re drying, there is no reason why the utility room in an apartment could not be ventilated well enough to allow clothes to be dried inside. And another option is a rear-facing balcony: I live in an Irish apartment that has one of these, and it's lovely space as well as very practical.

anncoates

horsesfc88 wrote: »

Lovely Town? Kildare? Really

Doesn't sound like you bought it out of choice.

More like you just can't afford to buy property in the capital city

Nice.

My friend was renting a beautiful apartment in Spain. Huge and solidly built and Central. You just don't see this kind of apartments here in the medium price range.

_Kaiser_

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

(But there's no reason that Ireland cannot do things properly.)

I'm afraid you have more faith in this country than I do.

The OP is right.. people in this country are obsessed with owning property. It led to the biggest collapse in the history of this State, and now the powers that be are colluding with the vested interests to kick it all off again. :rolleyes:

I think the point someone raised above about the Famine is probably accurate enough - we have such an insecurity/inferiority complex in this country that we'll bankrupt ourselves just to be able to "show off" our fancy digs to our friends and total strangers neighbours (although for a while there it became more about bothering ourselves with what they might be "getting away with" that we weren't)

Of course the knock-on effects of this is a situation where people are practically forced to buy - not just by ads on telly and government spin and incentives - but by the reality of dealing with the "cowboy country" that is the private rental market in Ireland - amateur/reluctant landlords, ridiculous rents, options for long term tenancies being extremely rare etc - all of which becomes more of an issue as you get older/start a family etc

Of course that in turn then encourages the worst kind of tenant too because sure feck it, it's only renting right, and that is the crux of the problem.
As I've said here multiple times, renting in this country is seen by all sides involved (landlords, tenants, government/regulators) as a short term stop-gap to property ownership or the option for those with no other choice (ie: the poor, and we know THEY don't count in this farce we call a State) and as such no-one takes it seriously which results in the above problems!

But unlike you Mrs OB, I have zero faith in a cabaal of incompetent unqualified teachers, lawyers, publicans and their mates in the building trade to do anything to change/reform it - shure that's not what the Irish people want!

Welcome to Ireland!

Rose35

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I'm sorry, but a huge proportion of Irish homes do not have a separate utility room: the washing machine is in the kitchen, and they are no better than apartments in this regard.

(The look of disgust that I comes on foreigner's faces when I gently explain to them why most Irish homes have that rectangular plastic bowl in the kitchen-sink is truly priceless. I can use see "ehwww .. the dirty buggers" going through their minds.)


Re drying, there is no reason why the utility room in an apartment could not be ventilated well enough to allow clothes to be dried inside. And another option is a rear-facing balcony: I live in an Irish apartment that has one of these, and it's lovely space as well as very practical.

Explain what exactly ??? I don't know what you do in the 'plastic bowl'?

kippy

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I'm sorry, but a huge proportion of Irish homes do not have a separate utility room: the washing machine is in the kitchen, and they are no better than apartments in this regard.

(The look of disgust that I comes on foreigner's faces when I gently explain to them why most Irish homes have that rectangular plastic bowl in the kitchen-sink is truly priceless. I can use see "ehwww .. the dirty buggers" going through their minds.)


Re drying, there is no reason why the utility room in an apartment could not be ventilated well enough to allow clothes to be dried inside. And another option is a rear-facing balcony: I live in an Irish apartment that has one of these, and it's lovely space as well as very practical.

I'n not talking about a utility room (not that posh myself tbh)
Talking about washing and drying the amount of clothes that goes with rearing two kids (Particulary drying)

Both your posts assume that these type of apartments are available in this country.
They very plainly arent, and I have contexted all of my comments with that caveat.

spockety

Can we please ban any nonsense talk about "everyone" on the continent living in apartments?

Go to any major European city, Berlin, Paris, Stockholm, Copenhagen, etc, etc, etc., and within 2 to 4 miles of the centre of the city you will find low density detached housing the likes of which many people in Dublin aspire to own.

The key thing is that there is a balance, and a choice to fit various lifestyles.

They have proper apartments and a proper renting culture, but that is only part of the mix. There is proper planning with the most dense stock nearer to the city (think between the canals in Dublin), and much lower density further out. Houses with gardens, driveways, etc.

People who live in Dublin suburbs are right to demand housing like this, it is not unique to Dublin, it is not unique to the UK, it is a worldwide phenomenon. The false image perpetuated of major European cities having nothing but high quality apartments is a load of rubbish.

We should not be building low density between the canals, but further out in the suburbs (think Stillorgan, Dundrum, Ballinteer, Rathfarnham, Tallaght, Finglas, Ballymum, etc, etc.) there is no reason why a mix of properly planned accommodation can't include lower density units.