Ireland’s Nine Eleven

William F

This Saturday, the 17th of May, marks the 40th anniversary of the Dublin and Monaghan terrorist attacks. The attacks claimed the lives of 33 innocent Irish people and nobody was ever brought to justice.

I was fortunate enough to grow up when the troubles were coming to an end and thankfully don’t remember much of the incidents apart from the Loughlingisland Massacre.

I think the troubles were a terrible thing to bestow the Irish people but I could never understand why Dublin and Monaghan were targeted and why the Gardai and Fine Gael/Labour Government assisted in its cover up.

I think as a nation we’ve reached the level of maturity to address this atrocity and acknowledge that we too, were victims.

Do you remember where you were?

dd972

I think some of the perpetrators were involved in the Miami Showband killings one of whom blew himself up, the static from one of the band's speakers set off a bomb he was trying to plant in their van.

I believe notorious Loyalist scummer Robin Jackson had some part as well, he died of Cancer in 1998.

The Hill Billy

The poor people who were killed, maimed & injured, & their families are/were victims of this atrocity.

We are not.

Why, when you acknowledge that you don't even remember this, do you suddenly want to become a 'victim' of it?

William F

The Hill Billy wrote: »

The poor people who were killed, maimed & injured, & their families are/were victims of this atrocity.

We are not.

Why, when you acknowledge that you don't even remember this, do you suddenly want to become a 'victim' of it?

My cousin died in it.

Pocoyo

The Hill Billy wrote: »

The poor people who were killed, maimed & injured, & their families are/were victims of this atrocity.

We are not.

Why, when you acknowledge that you don't even remember this, do you suddenly want to become a 'victim' of it?

Please have some respect we as a nation were victims of this crime and i genuinely have no idea why you would question a poster commemorating a national tragedy?? :rolleyes:

William F

I think if we are ever to move on from the troubles, Britain's involvement needs to be seriously assessed and the question needs to be asked, are they the right people to be launching inquiries since they were up to their eyes in collusion and continue to protect those involved.

As far as the Dublin government is concerned, for better or for worse, it had very little part to play in the conflict.

Iwasfrozen

It was a tragedy but I don't think you can compare it to 9/11.

downonthefarm

Wasn't royston bradys dad used in some way?
Think his car was robbed by the scummers to get out of dublin

Reformed Character

One of so many atrocities, Bloody Sunday, Kingsmills, The Le Mon, Omagh, the list seems endless.
Perhaps both countries need a shared memorial day to remember all the victims.

The Hill Billy

Pocoyo wrote: »

Please have some respect we as a nation were victims of this crime and i genuinely have no idea why you would question a poster commemorating a national tragedy?? :rolleyes:

Where was I disrespectful? I questioned the poster to ask why he felt he was a victim of an atrocity he did not remember.

I do not feel that we as a nation need to feel victimised by these acts of terrorism. If we play the victim card we let the bastards win. That is what they want in the first place.

Pocoyo

The Hill Billy wrote: »

Where was I disrespectful? I questioned the poster to ask why he felt he was a victim of an atrocity he did not remember.

I do not feel that we as a nation need to feel victimised by these acts of terrorism. If we play the victim card we let the bastards win. That is what they want in the first place.

To question a poster who as it turns out lost a family member in this tragedy was utterly uncalled for,This is quite obviously a sensitive topic that should be respected surely ''WE'' as a nation are capable of this? I know many posters like to attack any traditional idea of togetherness in irish society but surely we can treat a topic such as this with the respect it deserves.

whupdedo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

It was a tragedy but I don't think you can compare it to 9/11.

Why not ? Is one act of terrorism not as bad as another, no matter who carries it out

9/11 was carried out by terrorists as was all of the atrocities in the north and south whether they were carried out by Republicans, loyalists or the British army

Wazdakka

November 9th...
Never Forget!!

Drexel

I wouldnt call myself a victim. I find that a weird thing to even say.

Also the thread title is the stupidest thing ive seen on here in a long while, and that says a lot

entropi

whupdedo wrote: »

Why not ? Is one act of terrorism not as bad as another, no matter who carries it out

9/11 was carried out by terrorists as was all of the atrocities in the north and south whether they were carried out by Republicans, loyalists or the British army

I was just going to mention this. Why is what happened in New York the benchmark for terrorist acts? The act itself is bad enough, no matter who does it or where it happens. Terrorism happened a long time before then.

tritium

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

It was a tragedy but I don't think you can compare it to 9/11.

On the relative scale of losses 9/11 was no greater a tragedy than Dublin/ Monaghan and both are comparatively minor. That's not to diminish the suffering of those affected by it or negate the need to give closure for what happened, but we tend to scale such events only based on our perspective.

The Hill Billy

Pocoyo wrote: »

To question a poster who as it turns out lost a family member in this tragedy was utterly uncalled for,This is quite obviously a sensitive topic that should be respected surely ''WE'' as a nation are capable of this? I know many posters like to attack any traditional idea of togetherness in irish society but surely we can treat a topic such as this with the respect it deserves.

Easy tiger. The OP only mentioned after the fact that he lost a cousin (my sympathies, OP).
Still, at no stage was I disrespectful when I asked for clarification.
Your axe-grinding is a bit off-topic, tbh. So I shall leave it at that lest you or I get carded or worse.

Pocoyo

entropi wrote: »

I was just going to mention this. Why is what happened in New York the benchmark for terrorist acts? The act itself is bad enough, no matter who does it or where it happens. Terrorism happened a long time before then.

I believe its because 9/11 is the most infamous terrorist attack in history,Just as the bombings the OP is referring to are the most infamous in the irish republics history.

Pocoyo

The Hill Billy wrote: »

Easy tiger. The OP only mentioned after the fact that he lost a cousin (my sympathies, OP).
Still, at no stage was I disrespectful when I asked for clarification.
Your axe-grinding is a bit off-topic, tbh. So I shall leave it at that lest you or I get carded or worse.

Somehow i doubt you are in any danger of a card.

bb1234567

William F wrote: »

This Saturday, the 17th of May, marks the 40th anniversary of the Dublin and Monaghan terrorist attacks. The attacks claimed the lives of 33 innocent Irish people and nobody was ever brought to justice.

I was fortunate enough to grow up when the troubles were coming to an end and thankfully don’t remember much of the incidents apart from the Loughlingisland Massacre.

I think the troubles were a terrible thing to bestow the Irish people but I could never understand why Dublin and Monaghan were targeted and why the Gardai and Fine Gael/Labour Government assisted in its cover up.

I think as a nation we’ve reached the level of maturity to address this atrocity and acknowledge that we too, were victims.

Do you remember where you were?

It was a very horrible and tragic event but it cant really be compared to 9/11. Nearly 100 times more people died in 9/11, the dublin/monaghan bombings were more akin to the london bombings of 2005 in scale.

Wabbit Ears

To call this Irelands 9/11 is retarded beyond comprehension. 9/11 changed the lives of practically eveybody in the western world in some way. Its not aout the act itself or the numbers that died, it was a ground breaking event that had never happened before in the US on that scale.

bb1234567

Wabbit Ears wrote: »

To call this Irelands 9/11 is retarded beyond comprehension. 9/11 changed the lives of practically eveybody in the western world in some way. Its not aout the act itself or the numbers that died, it was a ground breaking event that had never happened before in the US on that scale.

Or anywhere in the world. And it is about the numbers, if that many people had not died it wouldnt have gone down in history as the worst terror attack in world history.

The Backwards Man

How many Irish citizens were killed in 9/11? Twenty odd IIRC. Hundreds more of Irish descent. 9/11 was Ireland's 9/11. Every tragedy is a tragedy in it's own right. I don't believe in comparing them, you're just making yourself a whataboutery merchant.

whupdedo

bb1234567 wrote: »

It was a very horrible and tragic event but it cant really be compared to 9/11. Nearly 100 times more people died in 9/11, the dublin/monaghan bombings were more akin to the london bombings of 2005 in scale.

But to look at it like that makes smaller attacks less important. Are the bombings of London or Madrid less important because not as many people died ?
Or should we look at it on a per capita basis where as more people live in America but on a per capita footing more people died in Ireland during the troubles than all Americans through terrorism on American soil ever,
or the Nigerian kidnappings more important than all the children that are kidnapped every day around the world, just because it happened in a single incident doesn't make it less or more important than any other terrorist attack

Iwasfrozen

whupdedo wrote: »

Why not ? Is one act of terrorism not as bad as another, no matter who carries it out

9/11 was carried out by terrorists as was all of the atrocities in the north and south whether they were carried out by Republicans, loyalists or the British army

9/11 cost far more in both lives and to the world economy than the Dublin-Monaghan bombings.

Iwasfrozen

whupdedo wrote: »

But to look at it like that makes smaller attacks less important. Are the bombings of London or Madrid less important because not as many people died ?
Or should we look at it on a per capita basis where as more people live in America but on a per capita footing more people died in Ireland during the troubles than all Americans through terrorism on American soil ever,
or the Nigerian kidnappings more important than all the children that are kidnapped every day around the world, just because it happened in a single incident doesn't make it less or more important than any other terrorist attack

No that's a terrible idea because it implies an Irish life is more important than an American one because there's less of us.

Reformed Character

Pocoyo wrote: »

I believe its because 9/11 is the most infamous terrorist attack in history,Just as the bombings the OP is referring to are the most infamous in the irish republics history.

I would have thought that the title of most infamous undoubtedly falls on Omagh.
Either way every act of violence, regardless of who perpetrated it, was a huge personal tragedy for some family and community.

whupdedo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

9/11 cost far more in both lives and to the world economy than the Dublin-Monaghan bombings.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No that's a terrible idea because it implies an Irish life is more important than an American one because there's less of us.

The world's economy is far bigger than the western (American) interests

It doesn't imply anything, it just means bigger atrocities in the western world are more important than the bombing of iraqi villages by western drones all in the name of oil

JerCotter7

Can it really be considered Irelands 9/11 even if it happened before 9/11?

Menas

This thread is turning in to a car crash, I am not even sure of the point of it other than to ask if we remember where we were at the time. Best off posting that question in the auld ones and auld fellas forum OP. It was 40 years FFS!

Dublin/monaghan was not irelands 9/11 imo. Not even close. It is sensationalist to try to latch on to the two. Dublin/Monaghan is nowhere on the list of histories worst atrocities. Go back in Irish history and it is not even in the top worst Irish atrocities.

We are not victims here, the people who died were.

Jawgap

Pocoyo wrote: »

To question a poster who as it turns out lost a family member in this tragedy was utterly uncalled for,This is quite obviously a sensitive topic that should be respected surely ''WE'' as a nation are capable of this? I know many posters like to attack any traditional idea of togetherness in irish society but surely we can treat a topic such as this with the respect it deserves.

Hang on, it was a terrible series of events, and my sympathies go out to all affected by it, including the OP, but the OP never knew the family member. It happened before the OP was born?

My own recollection is of hearing the Dublin bombs go off and then my normally placid mother being as worried as I ever saw her because my Dad worked in town. I was 5 at the time.

Yamanoto

Trigger Happy wrote: »

it is not even in the top worst Irish atrocities.

You should pitch that idea to TV3

William F

upyores wrote: »

One of so many atrocities, Bloody Sunday, Kingsmills, The Le Mon, Omagh, the list seems endless.
Perhaps both countries need a shared memorial day to remember all the victims.

Ah no. There is no correlation between what happened in the north and what happened in the south. The attacks you mentioned were a reaction to unpopular Unionist/British policies.

The south had no part to play in what was happening north of the border yet it was bombed to bits for no reason.

Wabbit Ears wrote: »

To call this Irelands 9/11 is retarded beyond comprehension. 9/11 changed the lives of practically eveybody in the western world in some way. Its not aout the act itself or the numbers that died, it was a ground breaking event that had never happened before in the US on that scale.

The thing that rubs people up here the most is

not that it was carried out with the assistance of British intelligence

not that it was covered up by the British and Irish Governments

not that it was Ireland's greatest loss of life during the troubles

but because it is compared with 9/11.

That is what I consider retarded beyond comprehension.

Jawgap

Did the atrocities listed not take place in Ireland...........

endacl

Pocoyo wrote: »

To question a poster who as it turns out lost a family member in this tragedy was utterly uncalled for

Actually, it was quite reasonable, based on the content of the opening. The op could have easily included that nugget in his first post. It would have considerably altered the context.

The same question occurred to me. It wouldn't have if the op had simply included the family involvement. His post would have made sense then, although it must be pointed out, he didn't know the cousin either. I have family who died before I was born. They're very much part of our family story but I don't feel any personal sense of loss. I never knew them.

Pocoyo

upyores wrote: »

I would have thought that the title of most infamous undoubtedly falls on Omagh.
Either way every act of violence, regardless of who perpetrated it, was a huge personal tragedy for some family and community.

Omaghs not in the irish republic.

Jawgap

Pocoyo wrote: »

Omaghs not in the irish republic.

Except the thread title refers to Ireland......not the Irish Republic

endacl

Pocoyo wrote: »

Omaghs not in the irish republic.

Jawgap wrote: »

Except the thread title refers to Ireland......not the Irish Republic

Here we go!

Pocoyo

Jawgap wrote: »

Except the thread title refers to Ireland......not the Irish Republic

Except i referred to the irish republic in the post quoted...you lose.

Reformed Character

Pocoyo wrote: »

Omaghs not in the irish republic.

Omaghs doesn't exist!
Omagh however is in Ireland and I kept seeing claims about Ireland.
The point is that all attacks, regardless of who carried them out, had horrific effects on the victims family/ies and the victims community/ies.
Surely the best way to to pay respect to all the victims is to have a joint day of remembrance for all victims in both states.

Reformed Character

Pocoyo wrote: »

Except i referred to the irish republic in the post quoted...you lose.

There is no such place as the Irish Republic.

Iwasfrozen

upyores wrote: »

There is no such place as the Irish Republic.

Sure there is you're living in it.

It's not called that officially of course but officially hoovers are called vacuums.

Pocoyo

upyores wrote: »

There is no such place as the Irish Republic.

Dont direct posts at me again please,cheers.

Iwasfrozen

whupdedo wrote: »

The world's economy is far bigger than the western (American) interests

It doesn't imply anything, it just means bigger atrocities in the western world are more important than the bombing of iraqi villages by western drones all in the name of oil

That's extremely off topic, let's not go down that road.

osarusan

William F wrote: »

I was fortunate enough to grow up when the troubles were coming to an end and thankfully don’t remember much of the incidents apart from the Loughlingisland Massacre.
?

You don't remember Omagh, which happened 4 years later?

If 9-11 can be looked at from the point of view of the impact which it, or its aftermath, had on the way terrorism was dealt with, then Omagh is probably the closest comparison.

Jawgap

Pocoyo wrote: »

Except i referred to the irish republic in the post quoted...you lose.

.......but your first contribution to this thread referenced the Irish 'nation' not the state.......

Pocoyo wrote: »

Please have some respect we as a nation were victims of this crime and i genuinely have no idea why you would question a poster commemorating a national tragedy?? :rolleyes:

William F

Jawgap wrote: »

Hang on, it was a terrible series of events, and my sympathies go out to all affected by it, including the OP, but the OP never knew the family member. It happened before the OP was born?

endacl wrote: »

His post would have made sense then, although it must be pointed out, he didn't know the cousin either. I have family who died before I was born. They're very much part of our family story but I don't feel any personal sense of loss. I never knew them.

upyores wrote: »

Omaghs doesn't exist!

I think Ireland is infected with a great illness, it's called British Rule. The fact that the majority of posters can come on here and play down what happened in 1974, is a disgrace.

tomwaterford

osarusan wrote: »

You don't remember Omagh, which happened 4 years later?

If 9-11 can be looked at from the point of view of the impact which it, or its aftermath, had on the way terrorism was dealt with, then Omagh is probably the closest comparison.

this is 100% true...it killed/stopped dissident republicans in there tracks...a serious grade A fcuk up...no defending it (though there is a photo that raises serious questions- a story for another day)
killed there efforts to wreak npeace to such an extent that it left them with no hope of ever getting going again...who would shelter/help/be associated with them after they bombing a town in which they had certain levels of support (did they ever apoligize??)

Jawgap

endacl wrote: »

Here we go!

No, that was just the warm up.........now we're definitely off........

William F wrote: »

I think Ireland is infected with a great illness, it's called British Rule. The fact that the majority of posters can come on here and play down what happened in 1974 goes to show this.

Think I'll take my hurl and go watch from the ditch.......

Pocoyo

I said.

''I believe its because 9/11 is the most infamous terrorist attack in history,Just as the bombings the OP is referring to are the most infamous in the irish republics history.''

He said.
''I would have thought that the title of most infamous undoubtedly falls on Omagh.
Either way every act of violence, regardless of who perpetrated it, was a huge personal tragedy for some family and community.
upyores is online now Report Post ''

Now talk about the tragedy after all thats what this thread is about.

meathstevie

William F wrote: »

Ah no. There is no correlation between what happened in the north and what happened in the south. The attacks you mentioned were a reaction to unpopular Unionist/British policies.

The south had no part to play in what was happening north of the border yet it was bombed to bits for no reason.



The thing that rubs people up here the most is

not that it was carried out with the assistance of British intelligence

not that it was covered up by the British and Irish Governments

not that it was Ireland's greatest loss of life during the troubles

but because it is compared with 9/11.

That is what I consider retarded beyond comprehension.

You might be a little bit black and white here, even from a purely constitutional point of view the Republic of Ireland had in involvement and at least an indirect role in what became known as the Troubles through claiming the territory of Northern Ireland. The constitutional articles stating this claim were removed as part of the Good Friday Agreement.

Since the formation of the Free State and Northern Ireland in the 1920's it has been a Loyalist/Unionist perception ( and sometimes maybe not completely incorrect ) that the "South" was the enemy at the gates looking to overthrow the state and annex "their" country.

That attitude by the way explains the reaction of violence and repression that the then Stormont Government deployed against the Civil Rights movement in the late 1960's. The Civil Rights movement by the way didn't at the start concern itself with issues of nationality or souvereignty but wanted an end to the Northern Ireland version of Apartheid or Segregation.

We all know how things escalated and got worse from then now wind forward a couple of years and the conflict is bogged down in vicious tit for tat sectarian bestiality, regular contacts with casualties on all sides between Republicans, Army and RUC. The Loyalists at that stage aren't much more than a bunch of blundering sectarian murderers who couldn't stage any significant "operation" under their own steam but the perception that the "South" is the enemy and gives at least sanctuary to the IRA is stronger than ever.

It's against that backdrop that you have to look at the Dublin and Monaghan bombings. Loyalists, with or without support from the security services, bringing the conflict home to what they perceived as the IRA's sanctuary.

If the then Dublin government covered up anything I believe there could have been only one genuine reason; to prevent worse. You have to remember it was a time of volatile public emotion and making any findings indicating Army or RUC involvement was only going to do one thing; push the conflict even further down the road of a full blown civil war from which the Republic of Ireland would not have had much of an option of standing back which would not have been Operation Armagedon but Operation Hopeless.