Bloody emigrants

Kermit.de.frog

They are taking our jobs and our women and forcing up property prices!


From emigrant to immigrant: the Irish are coming home


The recovering jobs market has led to many emigrants returning to a better life in this country. But it may be causing a rise in property prices.

You'd think the brave souls that stayed, like me self, would have first pickings when the unemployment rate is 11.8% but apparently not (honestly who "emigrates" for 2 years anyway!?).

On a serious note I do wonder could this become a source of genuine resentment in the years ahead for those who stayed?

Mr. Incognito

From the Articles own figures 120,000 have returned since 2008.

That's 6 years. 20,000 a year.

Emigration is running at 90,000 a year. 100,000 a year, from a population of less than 4 million.

That's 2.5%-3% of the population leaving, every year.

I dont think there will be anyone left to be resentful at this rate.

Also, I think you meant bloody immigrants. Emigrant- leaving, immigrant -arriving.

longhalloween

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

I dont think there will be anyone left to be resentful at this rate.

That'll be all that's left.

The Backwards Man

Fcuk me, but what passes for journalism these days is nothing short of pish. Do they just regurgitate stories every five to ten years or what? So people have been returning to the country to take up jobs in a recovering economy, since before the bailout?

Pity some journalists wouldn't return.

Mr. Incognito

longhalloween wrote: »

That'll be all that's left.

Sure that's what we started with.

Kermit.de.frog

No, I meant emigrants. With the economy recovering and jobs growth of 3% per year there is a genuine concern that emigrants returning will get these jobs and thus the dent in actual unemployment will be limited.

Kermit.de.frog

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

From the Articles own figures 120,000 have returned since 2008.

That's 6 years. 20,000 a year.

Emigration is running at 90,000 a year. 100,000 a year, from a population of less than 4 million.

That's 2.5%-3% of the population leaving, every year.

I dont think there will be anyone left to be resentful at this rate.

Also, I think you meant bloody immigrants. Emigrant- leaving, immigrant -arriving.

A few inaccuracies here in some of your figures incidentally. Population for one, net migration for 2 and no mention of immigration whether Irish or not. The population dynamic is certainly not as dire as you allude to there. Just sayin.

And it's likely improving again now. Anecdotally there is more action in the economy now from construction to retail to FDI than there was a year a go.

major bill

TBF there is a worry that when the Construction Industry kicks off again and it is happening that we will have a shortage of qualified QS's, Engineers etc cos they are all in England,Canada or Australia...the people coming home to take these jobs will be the ones with the qualifications to do them.

For Forks Sake

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Fcuk me, but what passes for journalism these days is nothing short of pish. Do they just regurgitate stories every five to ten years or what? So people have been returning to the country to take up jobs in a recovering economy, since before the bailout?

Pity some journalists wouldn't return.

If Alison O'Riordan shows up again, it's on your head

Mr. Incognito

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

A few inaccuracies here in some of your figures incidentally. Population for one, net migration for 2 and no mention of immigration whether Irish or not. The population dynamic is certainly not as dire as you allude to there. Just sayin.

And it's likely improving again now. Anecdotally there is more action in the economy now from construction to retail to FDI than there was a year a go.

Hold on,

You post an article. I post the figures from that article. You question figures.

Go figure.

Kermit.de.frog

major bill wrote: »

TBF there is a worry that when the Construction Industry kicks off again and it is happening that we will have a shortage of qualified QS's, Engineers etc cos they are all in England,Canada or Australia...the people coming home to take these jobs will be the ones with the qualifications to do them.

Precisely my point.

If they get jobs fair play to them. Another part of me says though that they fecked off when it got tough and it's us who stayed (I could have left like many others) to try and make a go of things at home that has pulled this place back from the abyss and we have put up with real financial and other pain.

So it would be easy to see why people would feel a little resentful if swarms of recent emigrants start returning and yet the unemployment figures remain high.

Antar Bolaeisk

major bill wrote: »

TBF there is a worry that when the Construction Industry kicks off again and it is happening that we will have a shortage of qualified QS's, Engineers etc cos they are all in England,Canada or Australia...the people coming home to take these jobs will be the ones with the qualifications to do them.

They'll also have had experience working abroad which apparently makes one more appealing to a prospective employer.

Kermit.de.frog

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Hold on,

You post an article. I post the figures from that article. You question figures.

Go figure.

Population is around 4.65m I think. It's an indo article remember :P

Guy:Incognito

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

From the Articles own figures 120,000 have returned since 2008.

That's 6 years. 20,000 a year.

Emigration is running at 90,000 a year. 100,000 a year, from a population of less than 4 million.

That's 2.5%-3% of the population leaving, every year.

I dont think there will be anyone left to be resentful at this rate.

Also, I think you meant bloody immigrants. Emigrant- leaving, immigrant -arriving.

How many of those that leave each year are on a J1, or floating around Europe or Australia for a year travelling, which would have happened anyway?

Antar Bolaeisk

Stupid question, how do they know when someone leaves the country to live/work abroad?

Richard Hillman

The jobs, women and property prices are nothing compared to the "When I was in OZ" statement that is repeated every 5 minutes.

zuhuraswa

Richard Hillman wrote: »

The jobs, women and property prices are nothing compared to the "When I was in OZ" statement that is repeated every 5 minutes.

Lol so true....and it does me in!!!!

Guy:Incognito

Richard Hillman wrote: »

The jobs, women and property prices are nothing compared to the "When I was in OZ" statement that is repeated every 5 minutes.

They all suddenly become the biggest political and social commentators about the affairs of Ireland while away too. Lads who never posted on facebook about anything other than going out and football now have newsfeeds full of their latest opinion on what the government is at and how disgraceful taxes are.

Kermit.de.frog

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

They all suddenly become the biggest political and social commentators about the affairs of Ireland while away too. Lads who never posted on facebook about anything other than going out and football now have newsfeeds full of their latest opinion on what the government is at and how disgraceful taxes are.

They did not and will not contribute to the recovery which will enable them to be the first to take full advantage. Why would we take tax advice from people who have taken a decision to leave anyway?

Instead of protesting or engaging in politics or whatever they upped and left.

theteal

I'm not seeing this resentment thing. There were no jobs. People with any gumption got off their arse and went where the jobs were, got experience and bettered themselves. Those that didn't go stayed with mammy, drew the welfare and stagnated (massive generalisations on both sides). On a normal planet surely any resentment should be towards the layabout and not vice versa?

padd b1975

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

No, I meant emigrants. With the economy recovering and jobs growth of 3% per year there is a genuine concern that emigrants returning will get these jobs and thus the dent in actual unemployment will be limited.

I would like to think the best candidate would get the job, I'm pretty sure that's what any recruiter worth their salt will be trying to do.

Mahogany

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

From the Articles own figures 120,000 have returned since 2008.

That's 6 years. 20,000 a year.

Emigration is running at 90,000 a year. 100,000 a year, from a population of less than 4 million.

That's 2.5%-3% of the population leaving, every year.

I dont think there will be anyone left to be resentful at this rate.

Also, I think you meant bloody immigrants. Emigrant- leaving, immigrant -arriving.

Population is growing, not receding, my friend.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

From the Articles own figures 120,000 have returned since 2008.

That's 6 years. 20,000 a year.

Emigration is running at 90,000 a year. 100,000 a year, from a population of less than 4 million.

That's 2.5%-3% of the population leaving, every year.

I dont think there will be anyone left to be resentful at this rate.

Also, I think you meant bloody immigrants. Emigrant- leaving, immigrant -arriving.

The Irish population is still growing as a total number through our somewhat high (relative to other first world countries) fertility rate.

Immigration over the last couple of years has been 52,000 and 55,000.
Emigration over the last couple of years has been 87,000 and 89,000.

The figures aren't so bad overall.

Cookie_Monster

Honestly why would you return now after leaving 2-5 years ago, short memories. The country is still in tatters and there's only the merest hints of improvements, hardly full blown Celtic Tiger Mk2.

dirtyden

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

They did not and will not contribute to the recovery which will enable them to be the first to take full advantage. Why would we take tax advice from people who have taken a decision to leave anyway?

Instead of protesting or engaging in politics or whatever they upped and left.

What a silly thing to be upset about.

Do you spend all your time looking for innocuous things to get all riled up about?

As long as I have been about (30 odd years give or take) young people have tried out a few years somewhere else and then returned home. I cant for the life of me see why anyone in their right mind could find this upsetting.

clevtrev

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

From the Articles own figures 120,000 have returned since 2008.

That's 6 years. 20,000 a year.

Emigration is running at 90,000 a year. 100,000 a year, from a population of less than 4 million.

That's 2.5%-3% of the population leaving, every year.

I dont think there will be anyone left to be resentful at this rate.

Also, I think you meant bloody immigrants. Emigrant- leaving, immigrant -arriving.

Less than 4 million?! Its closer to 5 million.

circadian

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Precisely my point.

If they get jobs fair play to them. Another part of me says though that they fecked off when it got tough and it's us who stayed (I could have left like many others) to try and make a go of things at home that has pulled this place back from the abyss and we have put up with real financial and other pain.

So it would be easy to see why people would feel a little resentful if swarms of recent emigrants start returning and yet the unemployment figures remain high.

Why did you stay if you had the opportunity to leave?

Doesn't it make sense that those returning with different experiences would bring a beneficial dynamic to the workforce?

Is the resentment placed more on the fact that some people went off, got work and enjoyed doing something different for a while whilst those who stayed 'have put up with real financial and other pain'?

There are also many trials and tribulations from emigrating to try and start a new life for yourself. It's not easy and it's something you've completely ignored.

D1stant

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Precisely my point.

If they get jobs fair play to them. Another part of me says though that they fecked off when it got tough and it's us who stayed (I could have left like many others) to try and make a go of things at home that has pulled this place back from the abyss and we have put up with real financial and other pain.

So it would be easy to see why people would feel a little resentful if swarms of recent emigrants start returning and yet the unemployment figures remain high.

That's a very small-minded attitude. The job market does not reward national loyalty. But did you really stay in Ireland because you wanted to pull it back from the abyss? Or was it something else.... like maybe you did not lose your job, you had family ties, you were the wrong age etc

Because in my book a kid emigrating when the economy is fcuked and returning back again when it starts to improve, bringing back a wider perspective and skills is just smart on their behalf and good for the country

Welcome back to all who return. As for the jobs - may the best man/woman win - as it always was and will be.

shruikan2553

Its not like every who stayed did so to do their part and help rebuild the motherland for glorious leader. They either were happy enough to stay, couldnt leave due to commitments here or they just couldnt be assed.

Boggley

Leaving the country rather than living on Social Welfare.....

Having to pay income tax on rental income of a property they can no longer afford to live in....

Supplementing their rental income to cover the cost of their mortgage with wages they have earned abroad rather than going into default....

Bringing cash earned abroad back into the country on their return......

Sending cash home to family members to put back into the economy.........

Some people were left with very little choice other than to leave the country to try and stay afloat. Some of these people are also suffering largely because they are away from the families, friends, homes and life isn't always greener on the other side

A Dub in Glasgo

Feck me, this is actually a serious thread from the OP!!

The Domonator

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=768h3Tz4Qik

Maphisto

Antar Bolaeisk wrote: »

Stupid question, how do they know when someone leaves the country to live/work abroad?

I've always wondered that too.

When we moved back we took an extended holiday for the first 6 months - who knew.

Plus there are quite a few "back and over" types with addresses here and UK, live here but drive UK reg cars and use the NHS for any health stuff. Where are they counted?

A Dub in Glasgo

Maphisto wrote: »

Plus there are quite a few "back and over" types with addresses here and UK, live here but drive UK reg cars and use the NHS for any health stuff. Where are they counted?

In the scrounger lists

NTMK

theteal wrote: »

I'm not seeing this resentment thing. There were no jobs. People with any gumption got off their arse and went where the jobs were, got experience and bettered themselves. Those that didn't go stayed with mammy, drew the welfare and stagnated (massive generalisations on both sides). On a normal planet surely any resentment should be towards the layabout and not vice versa?

the resentment will come from the same people that were bitter about us leaving and those that return wont give two ****s about it as its usually the layabouts that are the most bitter

I personally didnt want to be a burden on the state any longer than i was and left

Legs.Eleven

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

They did not and will not contribute to the recovery which will enable them to be the first to take full advantage. Why would we take tax advice from people who have taken a decision to leave anyway?

Instead of protesting or engaging in politics or whatever they upped and left.

Did you protest or get involved in politics?

AngryHippie

theteal wrote: »

I'm not seeing this resentment thing. There were no jobs. People with any gumption got off their arse and went where the jobs were, got experience and bettered themselves. Those that didn't go stayed with mammy, drew the welfare and stagnated (massive generalisations on both sides). On a normal planet surely any resentment should be towards the layabout and not vice versa?

Wow, the sweeping generalizations are out in full force on this one.
I know plenty of people who would leave if they could, but are either tied to properties, or have family commitments or are employed and are terrified of losing that. That is fair enough. It's a similar proportion to the people that left to get a job, get experience and get some cash.

I don't think there should be much resentment on either side to be honest. The ones who will end up resentful are the ones that could have gone, but prefer to stay local, and have missed out on a few years work experience, a few years wages and some good times for the sake of sticking with the familiar. They have only themselves to blame, and that is usually the biggest source of resentment.
Personally I can't see myself ever being in that situation, as from afar, nothing has changed there. There has been no mentality shift in the Oireachtas nothing has been done to future-proof or better the country, and its gradually sliding backwards in both appeal and relevance as a place to live. Not that anywhere else is better or worse in any real terms, just more appealing and better able to fulfill my needs. The days of what you can do for your country are dead and gone, as all your country can do for you is give you a form and tell you to wait in line.:rolleyes:

dd972

*yawn*

It's only in Ireland that the people who stay are deemed to be the ''super Irish'' and the ones who leave or leave and come back again regarded as scum of some sort.

Go to any airport terminal the world over, there's people coming and going, some for good, others coming back, the Scots don't look down their noses at Canadians of Scottish heritage and so on.

Kermit.de.frog

Emigrating was the EASY choice in the last few years. Make no mistake about it.

I can't understand people making emigrants out to be heroes. They had no part to play in getting this country out of the mess it was in. Now they want the benefits and will flock back soon enough and questions do have to be asked about unemployment in that situation.

They abandoned the country and now expect to be first on the list in the recovery.

wotswattage

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Emigrating was the EASY choice in the last few years. Make no mistake about it.

I can't understand people making emigrants out to be heroes. They had no part to play in getting this country out of the mess it was in. Now they want the benefits and will flock back soon enough and questions do have to be asked about unemployment in that situation.

They abandoned the country and now expect to be first on the list in the recovery.

I'm sure loads of them are coming back and starting their own businesses here. You have a problem with that too?

*I'm astounded with this attitude that someone who got up off their ar$e and went out and found work wherever it was is somehow the baddie in this situation?!?!?
What would you prefer they did?

SeantheMan

Maphisto wrote: »

I've always wondered that too.

When we moved back we took an extended holiday for the first 6 months - who knew.

Plus there are quite a few "back and over" types with addresses here and UK, live here but drive UK reg cars and use the NHS for any health stuff. Where are they counted?

I wonder about it too.

Maybe it's to do with the documents you have to get apostilled in the Dept of Foreign Affairs when applying for Visas

Kermit.de.frog

AngryHippie wrote: »

Personally I can't see myself ever being in that situation, as from afar, nothing has changed there. :rolleyes:

So in a nutshell you expect US to do the change for YOU? You should be here along with the many others helping get that change. But you are not. You took the easy option and now have the cheek to preach from "afar" when you don't live here, don't contribute here and have no intention of coming back.

Good riddance. One less as far as i'm concerned.

Calibos

So was Noonan correct after all?

http://www.thejournal.ie/noonan-young-emigrants-not-driven-away-by-unemployment-331911-Jan2012/

He was castigated for those comments a few years ago.

One wonders of he was kinda correct or correct but for the wrong reasons so to speak.

That the wave of emmigration caused by the recent recession was different from previous waves in that even the emmigre's viewed it as a short term thing till things improved at home. Whereas in the past things were so depressing with little hope/sign of improvements even in the medium/long term that if one decided to emmigrate one anticipated it being for good or long term and setting up a new life abroad. An emmigrant back then looking back over the previous 40-50 years would see little improvement in the countries prospects and thus assume the same going forward. When my Aunt/Uncle emmigrated to Perth 40 years ago it was a 6 week boat trip. However with this wave it was more like, "Sure theres no jobs here at the moment anyway, I may as well do the travel/work abroad thing for a few years until things improve at home. If things don't work out I can be home within 30 hours." This time the emmigrants at least know that although we fcuked it up this time, the 'Real' Celtic Tiger years in the 90's and early 2000's and the massive changes to the country in that time, at least showed the potential of the country and it is now concievable that things can be good again and worth coming home to. Totally different dynamic to an emmigrant in the early 60's say looking back over the previous 40 years to independance and seeing little change in prospects for the country over that period and correctly assuming as it turned out, the same for the next 30 years till the dawn of the 90's.

I think we are in a much better position this time round in terms of emmigration. In the past it was medium/long term by necessity/logistics. Chances were that a significant percentage of those we had invested in educationally were not coming back. Best and Brightest/Brain Drain etc. This time we are far more likely to have our cake and eat it. ie. Pressure relief valve on the welfare system by them going for a few years while things are bad here but a far greater likelyhood this time of them coming back with money,skills and experience earned abroad with no permenant brain drain and loss to the country of the educational investment in them.

I don't understand this, "You're either with us or against us" or "Us & Them" mentality. The country needed some of the best and brightest to stay and some of the best and brightest to go for a while. Neither group did anything wrong??

pablomakaveli

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

So in a nutshell you expect US to do the change for YOU? You should be here along with the many others helping get that change. But you are not. You took the easy option and now have the cheek to preach from "afar" when you don't live here, don't contribute here and have no intention of coming back.

Good riddance. One less as far as i'm concerned.

What are you doing to change things?

qdawg86

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

They did not and will not contribute to the recovery which will enable them to be the first to take full advantage. Why would we take tax advice from people who have taken a decision to leave anyway?

Instead of protesting or engaging in politics or whatever they upped and left.

Please regale us with stories of your 'protesting' and 'engagement in politics'

You sound jealous that you missed out.

I'm away now. No way was I going to stay at home sitting on the dole. I'm having a blast, I'll be able to save some cash and I'll return whenever I want and spend my money on what ever I want.

No input required from you whatsoever.

Nodin

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Emigrating was the EASY choice in the last few years. Make no mistake about it.

I can't understand people making emigrants out to be heroes. They had no part to play in getting this country out of the mess it was in. Now they want the benefits and will flock back soon enough and questions do have to be asked about unemployment in that situation.

They abandoned the country and now expect to be first on the list in the recovery.

Sad, tbh.

AngryHippie

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Emigrating was the EASY choice in the last few years. Make no mistake about it.

I can't understand people making emigrants out to be heroes. They had no part to play in getting this country out of the mess it was in. Now they want the benefits and will flock back soon enough and questions do have to be asked about unemployment in that situation.

They abandoned the country and now expect to be first on the list in the recovery.

That is a moronic statement

Abandoned it ?

I don't think that is a reasonable assessment of the situation at all.

Particularly if the alternative was to stay here and be a part of the problem (Long term welfare recipient = Economic Burden)
Particularly if they come back with money to re-invest in the economy (Net gain for the country)
Especially if they come back with more experience and skills (Net gain for the country)

It sounds like someone has a chip on their shoulder about it all.

There is no attitude that fits all people on this topic. To judge everybody on the basis of a statement like that above says a lot about the small minded parochial bullsh1te that makes a lot of the people that "abandoned" the country never want to set foot in it again.

If you want to make this about the country, make it about the fools that ran it into the ground, not the ones that swam for the shore.

I wouldn't deem statements made on the basis of an article from the Indo to be particularly well informed either, so I'd suggest trying something less sensational like something peer-reviewed :
http://mpra.ub.uni-muenchen.de/19176/
http://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/circular-migration-keeping-development-rolling
[URL="keldon, R. (2012). Going Round in Circles: Circular Migration, Poverty Alleviation and Marginality. International Migration, 50"][/URL]
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1468-2435.2012.00751.x/abstract

The point in most of those circular migration studies is that the people most affected by migration is .....Shock......Horror.....The migrants.
So how about you button it about people who work their butts off to make a life for themselves, took a few risks and got a win.:mad:

AngryHippie

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

So in a nutshell you expect US to do the change for YOU? You should be here along with the many others helping get that change. But you are not. You took the easy option and now have the cheek to preach from "afar" when you don't live here, don't contribute here and have no intention of coming back.

Good riddance. One less as far as i'm concerned.

I'm not sure who exactly US and them are.

I'm one of US, I'm Irish.
I'm one of THEM, I left (Originally for a working holiday, Roll the Dice life change)

I'm AFAR, as it's working out well for me.
I'm probably not going back as I will have a$$holes resenting my bit of luck in life
I'm probably not going back as people keep electing clowns to run the country
I'm probably not going back as the Maple 10 and their enablers are still walking the streets
I'm probably not going back as the public service is still at breaking point and is not sustainable.

There are too many of the "others" resisting change in parochial Ireland for it to ever happen without a serious social upheaval, and I've studied enough history to know that those kind of changes cause total chaos. Small changes and reforms will be fought for and passed, and the wheel will keep on spinning, but from AFAR, you can see that the hamster is dead.

I'm not preaching, I'm pointing out something that is as obvious as dogs balls to anyone who can see a bigger picture. If I had the answers, I would preach.

As for it being the easy option, I don't know how many nights you have spent shivering in a Donga in the bush after milking cows, mustering and fixing fences for 16 hours a day. I don't know how many times you have been in a city utterly alone with a bag full of dirty clothes and the price of a bus fare to your name. I don't know how many times you have had people from YOUR HOME accuse you of ABANDONING them because you couldn't face being old and broke as your parents had to.

Easy choice ? Get fcuked.:mad:

Antar Bolaeisk

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Emigrating was the EASY choice in the last few years. Make no mistake about it.

I can't understand people making emigrants out to be heroes. They had no part to play in getting this country out of the mess it was in. Now they want the benefits and will flock back soon enough and questions do have to be asked about unemployment in that situation.

They abandoned the country and now expect to be first on the list in the recovery.

It's hardly the easy choice, while some aspects of life are certainly going to be simpler it comes with it's own set of challenges and hardships.

You're also over-simplifying the situation, people live and work abroad for a variety of reasons, it's not all about fleeing a sinking ship.

NZ_2014

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Emigrating was the EASY choice in the last few years. Make no mistake about it.

I can't understand people making emigrants out to be heroes. They had no part to play in getting this country out of the mess it was in. Now they want the benefits and will flock back soon enough and questions do have to be asked about unemployment in that situation.

They abandoned the country and now expect to be first on the list in the recovery.

You are unbelievable. The easy choice would be to claim the dole.

It takes balls for people to get up off their hole and go get work abroad where it was almost impossible to find here. Fair play to them and they come back better for it

theteal

The first post here gave the impression of sitting on the fence by the OP asking if it could be a genuine source of resentment. The OP's last post went full-on troll.

"the first on the list in the recovery", ffs, the job is advertised, the best candidate gets it's, it's a global marketplace, whomever gets the job could be from the back arse of indo-china for all I care. People need to buck up and open their eyes!