Returning a Bicycle

Blisterman

I recently bought a bicycle online, which, when I brought it out for a ride a few days after receiving it, immediately broke.

I contacted the shop I bought it from, who accept that the bike was faulty, but insist it is boxed when they collect it from me for a refund.

Now, the cost of a buying a cardboard box big enough to hold a bike is close to €30. I've contacted local bike shops, and none of them have any boxes to spare. I disposed of the original box it came with shortly after receiving it.

The shop is refusing either to send me a box or to collect it unless it is boxed. What are my rights in this situation. Can they insist I spend my own money to package an item which was clearly faulty?

Teagwee

Maybe not an answer to your question, but (IMO) one man's 'box' is another man's selection of cardboard pieces spliced together with tape. It's the option I'd choose under the circumstances.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Ask the supplier to refund you the cost of shipping it back incl the purchase of a box.

Alias G

Surprised that a local bike shop can't supply you with a box. If you try a busy shop you should definitely get one. I don't know what your exact rights would be but I think you ought to be required to return item in original or equivalent packaging.

slimjimmc

There is no legal obligation on you to provide packaging and it's unreasonable on them to refuse of collect on that basis. Under consumer law any returns must be a no cost to the consumer. The seller is allowed to ask the consumer to initially bear return costs but they must refund the consumer for all costs borne.

mdebets

slimjimmc wrote: »

There is no legal obligation on you to provide packaging and it's unreasonable on them to refuse of collect on that basis. Under consumer law any returns must be a no cost to the consumer. The seller is allowed to ask the consumer to initially bear return costs but they must refund the consumer for all costs borne.

That only applies if the OP bought it from an Irish website. If he bought it froma European one, it's whatever the law is in the country, if he bought it from outside the EU, then it's really up to what the shop wants.

skelligs

slimjimmc wrote: »

There is no legal obligation on you to provide packaging and it's unreasonable on them to refuse of collect on that basis. Under consumer law any returns must be a no cost to the consumer. The seller is allowed to ask the consumer to initially bear return costs but they must refund the consumer for all costs borne.

Actually, the customer is responsible for packing the return in a safe manner so that no additional damage can come to the item.

Whether that be a box, wrapped in bubble wrap or corrugated cardboard, it still must be packed suitably for return. The fact that its a bicycle and requires a large box doesn't make a difference - if you were returning a pair of shoes, would you expect to be able to just had the pair to a courier? The supplier is not insisting on the original box, just a box. Couriers won't take unpackaged items.

Check DIY or furniture stores for a box suitable.

Cabaal

slimjimmc wrote: »

There is no legal obligation on you to provide packaging and it's unreasonable on them to refuse of collect on that basis. Under consumer law any returns must be a no cost to the consumer. The seller is allowed to ask the consumer to initially bear return costs but they must refund the consumer for all costs borne.

Keep in mind that the requirement of the item being packaged is likely nothing to do with the bike company, it is far more likely be the carrier and it makes perfect sense.

Its not unreasonable for a carrier to expect a item like a bike to be boxed for transit, in much the same way as airlines require a bike to be boxed for transit,

Not putting a bike in a box and then expecting the carrier not to scratch the paintwork or damage a brake cable or lever etc is very silly, the requirement for the bike to be boxed is perfectly reasonable in this instance and its the customer's job to ensure the item is packaged suitably for return to prevent further damage.

JimsAlterEgo

Cabaal wrote: »

Keep in mind that the requirement of the item being packaged is likely nothing to do with the bike company, it is far more likely be the carrier and it makes perfect sense.

Its not unreasonable for a carrier to expect a item like a bike to be boxed for transit, in much the same way as airlines require a bike to be boxed for transit,

Not putting a bike in a box and then expecting the carrier not to scratch the paintwork or damage a brake cable or lever etc is very silly, the requirement for the bike to be boxed is perfectly reasonable in this instance and its the customer's job to ensure the item is packaged suitably for return to prevent further damage.

however if the packaging has been disposed of the OP shoulf be reimbursed ofr any packaging costs

daymobrew

Your local recycling centre might have large pieces of cardboard that you could "up cycle"

skelligs

JimsAlterEgo wrote: »

however if the packaging has been disposed of the OP shoulf be reimbursed ofr any packaging costs

The OP disposed of the packaging not the supplier, so its the OP's responsibility to ensure safe return by reasonable means.

Its not for the supplier to do this as they supplied it in a box.

Theoretically the supplier could take it back, fix it and return it to the customer. In that case would the OP be willing to send it back without protective cover and allow for the supplier to re-send without protective cover?

Dinging

The guys in the cycling forum are a helpful bunch and maybe able to help you source the box you need. They are buying new bikes all of the time.

Cabaal

JimsAlterEgo wrote: »

however if the packaging has been disposed of the OP shoulf be reimbursed ofr any packaging costs

I disagree,
the disposal of the packaging was not a failing of the bike company...the OP did that, its the OP's job to package the item in a safe and suitable manner. It's not the bike company's job to refund a customer for any paper, cardboard or sticky tape the customer might use.

Next you'll be claiming that if somebody has to return something and it involves going to the post office the person should be refunded petrol money :pac:

JimsAlterEgo

Cabaal wrote: »

I disagree,
the disposal of the packaging was not a failing of the bike company...the OP did that, its the OP's job to package the item in a safe and suitable manner. It's not the bike company's job to refund a customer for any paper, cardboard or sticky tape the customer might use.

Next you'll be claiming that if somebody has to return something and it involves going to the post office the person should be refunded petrol money :pac:

no but if a reasonable package of time has passed, the OP shouldnt be out of pocket

Beano

JimsAlterEgo wrote: »

no but if a reasonable package of time has passed, the OP shouldnt be out of pocket

It broke a few days after he received so i wouldnt say a reasonable amount of time has passed. If it was months later then it would be different.

beauf

Cost of returns is a disadvantage online shopping.

blackbird98

just get any cardboard boxes and spilt them up, then tape them around the bike

Alias G wrote: »

Surprised that a local bike shop can't supply you with a box.

I'm not, as a matter of fact I'd be more surprised if they did give him the box, after all, he bypassed the local bike shop to buy cheaper online. I'm sure the local business wouldn't be too impressed

Alias G

blackbird98 wrote: »

just get any cardboard boxes and spilt them up, then tape them around the bike


I'm not, as a matter of fact I'd be more surprised if they did give him the box, after all, he bypassed the local bike shop to buy cheaper online. I'm sure the local business wouldn't be too impressed

I have got bicycle boxes from shops plenty of times. They are simply chucking them anyway. And I'm not on close terms with any bike shop. The OP doesn't have to state the intended purpose. The box could be required for bringing a bike on a plane for example which would be the most typical reason that a box would be sought.

drunkmonkey

What's actually wrong with the bike? Frame cracked?

Most parts are fixable, can you not just send back the broken bit, i'm in the same situation at the moment, the crank broke off after 5 minutes and all the threads are wrecked, i'm just sending back that part rather than the whole bike. Who ever put it on must have ringed it. Bike only arrived from Germany yesterday and part sent back today.

Bought off evans cycles before and the derailer came off after about 3 week and done a good bit of damage, scratched the frame, buckled the wheel, they made me send back the whole bike but there was no bother replacing it and they were in the uk.

WildCardDoW

Try Smyths / Halfords if there's one nearby, they dispose of packing daily and sell bikes so you might get lucky.

Although they are flat packed!

slimjimmc

skelligs wrote: »

The OP disposed of the packaging not the supplier, so its the OP's responsibility to ensure safe return by reasonable means.
Its not for the supplier to do this as they supplied it in a box.
Theoretically the supplier could take it back, fix it and return it to the customer. In that case would the OP be willing to send it back without protective cover and allow for the supplier to re-send without protective cover?

Cabaal wrote: »

I disagree,
the disposal of the packaging was not a failing of the bike company...the OP did that, its the OP's job to package the item in a safe and suitable manner. It's not the bike company's job to refund a customer for any paper, cardboard or sticky tape the customer might use.

Next you'll be claiming that if somebody has to return something and it involves going to the post office the person should be refunded petrol money :pac:

The law says different.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2003/en/si/0011.html

7. (1) The seller shall be liable to the consumer for any lack of conformity referred to in Regulation 5 which exists at the time the goods were delivered.

(2) In the case of such a lack of conformity, the consumer shall, subject to, and, in accordance with, this Regulation, be entitled to have —
(a) the goods brought into conformity free of charge by repair or replacement, or
(b) an appropriate reduction made in the price, or
(c) the contract rescinded with regard to those goods.
(3) In the first place, the consumer may require the seller to repair the goods or to replace them (in either case free of charge) unless this is impossible or disproportionate.
:
:
:
(6) In paragraphs (2) and (3) “free of charge” means free of the costs that must necessarily be incurred to bring the goods into conformity, including the cost of carriage postage, labour and materials.

beauf wrote: »

Cost of returns is a disadvantage online shopping.

Only if returning for change of mind or invoking the 7 day cooling off period.
You are entitled to return free of charge if you are returning a product because it is defective (or other breach of contract).

Cabaal

- Company is going to repair it free of charge (thats labour covered)
- Company is going to collect it free of charge as they'll pay for carrier (so thats postage covered)
- Company won't charge for any material's/parts needed to fix the item (thats parts and materials covered)

Consumer still needs to package the item in a safe and suitable way for the carrier to collect it, again my previous response still stands.

You wouldn't expect a company to refund your petrol costs if you had to drive to the post office, its about as silly as trying to charge the company for your personal time having to wait in for the carrier to pick up the bike.

slimjimmc

But the company is not collecting it free of charge if the collection is conditional on the item being packaged at the consumer's expense.
In that case packaging is a necessary cost which must be free of charge to the consumer as specified in law.

Cabaal

slimjimmc wrote: »

But the company is not collecting it free of charge if the collection is conditional on the item being packaged at the consumer's expense.
In that case packaging is a necessary cost which must be free of charge to the consumer as specified in law.

Company is paying for the carrier,

Carrier is going to require that the item is packaged safely for transit, thats a pretty reasonable request from the carrier.
Don't believe me? Then try purchase an item of clothing from a company (for example shoes) and then go to your local postoffice to return it without any proper packaging what so ever (with just the return address taped to the shoe itself, the postmaster will tell you they won't be accepting it.

If the company advised the customer that the item needs to be packaged this really would have only been to prevent the carrier showing up and saying "can't take that" and wasting everyone's time and money

Beano

slimjimmc wrote: »

But the company is not collecting it free of charge if the collection is conditional on the item being packaged at the consumer's expense.
In that case packaging is a necessary cost which must be free of charge to the consumer as specified in law.

The company want the product returned in the same protective packaging that it was sent in. And you think that is unreasonable?

slimjimmc

Beano wrote: »

The company want the product returned in the same protective packaging that it was sent in. And you think that is unreasonable?

No it's not unreasonable to send the product back in protective package, what's unreasonable is demanding the customer pays for it when the law is quite explicit on the subject, the consumer is entitled to a return free of charge.

doublej

Alias G wrote: »

Surprised that a local bike shop can't supply you with a box. If you try a busy shop you should definitely get one. I don't know what your exact rights would be but I think you ought to be required to return item in original or equivalent packaging.

Why should a brick and mortar rate paying Irish business facilitate a person that elected to purchase online? Perhaps the poster should have suggested that OP should buy a cycle box from the cycle store!

Darkglasses

Dinging wrote: »

The guys in the cycling forum are a helpful bunch and maybe able to help you source the box you need. They are buying new bikes all of the time.

Yeah, feel free to put up a thread in adverts forum there. We regularly have people offering them for free, they're useful for things like this

Beano

slimjimmc wrote: »

No it's not unreasonable to send the product back in protective package, what's unreasonable is demanding the customer pays for it when the law is quite explicit on the subject, the consumer is entitled to a return free of charge.

The company provided the packaging required to ship the product. The customer decided to throw it out.

Alias G

doublej wrote: »

Why should a brick and mortar rate paying Irish business facilitate a person that elected to purchase online? Perhaps the poster should have suggested that OP should buy a cycle box from the cycle store!

Its only a box which they are dumping any way. In the real world decent people oblige each other. The OP obviously owns a bike so is clearly a target market for the bricks and mortar shop. You don't win customers by acting mean spirited to them.

Darkglasses

You don't have to tell them why you want a box. People very often want them when they want to put their bike on a plane for holidays. If they haven't got one, ring another shop. It really isn't a big deal...

Umpalumpa

OP,why not go into a shop or warehouse and ask for some boxes
I've worked in many warehouses where I've had joe public walk in and make a similar request.
I've never said no and would be surprised if someone would have a problem handing over boxes

foggy_lad

Blisterman wrote: »

I recently bought a bicycle online, which, when I brought it out for a ride a few days after receiving it, immediately broke.

I contacted the shop I bought it from, who accept that the bike was faulty, but insist it is boxed when they collect it from me for a refund.

Now, the cost of a buying a cardboard box big enough to hold a bike is close to €30. I've contacted local bike shops, and none of them have any boxes to spare. I disposed of the original box it came with shortly after receiving it.

The shop is refusing either to send me a box or to collect it unless it is boxed. What are my rights in this situation. Can they insist I spend my own money to package an item which was clearly faulty?

The shop must repair replace or refund and you can not be obliged to retain packaging which would normally have been thrown away or recycled. The shop must provide packaging if required or refund you for any and all packaging costs.

davo10

foggy_lad wrote: »

The shop must repair replace or refund and you can not be obliged to retain packaging which would normally have been thrown away or recycled. The shop must provide packaging if required or refund you for any and all packaging costs.

Where did you get all that from?, the three R's part of the post is correct assuming the online shop is in Ireland, but as for providing packaging, you've made that up. Bike arrived to OP with packaging, it's up to OP to send it back. One of the perils of not buying in a shop.

foggy_lad

skelligs wrote: »

The OP disposed of the packaging not the supplier, so its the OP's responsibility to ensure safe return by reasonable means.

Its not for the supplier to do this as they supplied it in a box.

Theoretically the supplier could take it back, fix it and return it to the customer. In that case would the OP be willing to send it back without protective cover and allow for the supplier to re-send without protective cover?

The supplier must take back the goods at no cost to the buyer so that means they must cover any costs involved in posting and packaging

Beano wrote: »

The company provided the packaging required to ship the product. The customer decided to throw it out.

Have you kept all boxes and packaging for every large household item you ever purchased?

If the item was a washing machine or a flat screen television would people expect the consumer to have to pay for packaging? The retailer is responsible for all post and packaging costs where a return is because of a faulty product.

davo10

I've read through this thread, have I missed it or has the OP not posted it was bought in Ireland? If it wasn't, then forget about rights for costs of return and the 3R's, it's whatever the law is in the country of purchase. Also, OP has not shared the nature of the fault, this may be found to be a fault in the way OP put it together. Vendors are entitled to examine the item before offering a solution to the problem, and that includes checking if the purchaser was at fault ( I do understand that in this case the seller has said there was a fault but they still have not seen it). I'm surprised this is such a big issue, card board boxes are everywhere, I would have thought it would be far more of an issue if as often happens the online seller washes their hands of the problem.

This is another illustration of the difference between online v's shop purchases.

foggy_lad

davo10 wrote: »

Where did you get all that from?, the three R's part of the post is correct assuming the online shop is in Ireland, but as for providing packaging, you've made that up. Bike arrived to OP with packaging, it's up to OP to send it back. One of the perils of not buying in a shop.

The online shop can tell the consumer what they want about sending it back in the original packaging but the law is different.

I was told a number of years ago by Acer support that a laptop I had bought that was being returned had to be returned in the original box it came in or I would have to pay a standard return fee of €80 plus pay for them to send the laptop back to me in a new box.

When I checked with the National Consumer Agency they told me that was nonsense as the retailer were responsible for all costs of postage and packaging involved in any return and a consumer can not reasonably be expected to retain packaging after a purchase, They also said to deal only with the shop and ignore Acer if I had any more issues.

On hearing from the N.C.A. Acer immediately changed their stance and said that they would send me out a box to package the laptop in for the courier.

The retailer can chance their arm to try and save a few euro but at the end of the day they are responsible for return post and packaging. It is up to the consumer to ensure that the item is packed securely but the retailer must cover costs of such packaging if required.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2003/en/si/0011.html

http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/consumers/protection_of_consumers/l32022_en.htm

When a lack of conformity is notified to the seller, the consumer will be entitled to ask:

for the goods to be repaired or replaced free of charge within a reasonable period and without major inconvenience to the consumer;
for an appropriate reduction to be made to the price, or for the contract to be rescinded, if repair or replacement is impossible or disproportionate, or if the seller has not remedied the shortcoming within a reasonable period or without major inconvenience to the consumer.

davo10

foggy_lad wrote: »

The online shop can tell the consumer what they want about sending it back in the original packaging but the law is different.

They also said to deal only with the shop and ignore Acer if I had any more issues.
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Which law says different? Irish, English, Polish, Chinese?

Before posting any more, bare in mind:

a) OP has not informed us where it came from, Ireland, EU, outside EU.

b) what the fault was and whether it was a manufacturing fault or possibly a fault due to poor assembly.

d) OP does need original packaging, just a box.

If this was me, I'd be thinking, great an online shop which will take a bike back no questions asked and send a replacement. Online shops are not always as accomadating, who would have thought the issue would be finding a card board box, think Tescos/Dunnes/Halfords/Currys etc

foggy_lad

Blisterman wrote: »

I recently bought a bicycle online, which, when I brought it out for a ride a few days after receiving it, immediately broke.

I contacted the shop I bought it from, who accept that the bike was faulty, but insist it is boxed when they collect it from me for a refund.

Now, the cost of a buying a cardboard box big enough to hold a bike is close to €30. I've contacted local bike shops, and none of them have any boxes to spare. I disposed of the original box it came with shortly after receiving it.

The shop is refusing either to send me a box or to collect it unless it is boxed. What are my rights in this situation. Can they insist I spend my own money to package an item which was clearly faulty?

€30 is a MAJOR inconvenience imho and the shop are being unreasonable in their request.

davo10 wrote: »

Which law says different? Irish, English, Polish, Chinese?

Before posting any more, bare in mind:

a) OP has not informed us where it came from, Ireland, EU, outside EU. If outside the EU the OP will have to find a box, within the EU the OP is covered by the regulations

b) what the fault was and whether it was a manufacturing fault or possibly a fault due to poor assembly.Fault accepted by the shop

d) OP does need original packaging, just a box. only if it does not inconvenience the OP

If this was me, I'd be thinking, great an online shop which will take a bike back no questions asked and send a replacement. Online shops are not always as accomadating, who would have thought the issue would be finding a card board box, think Tescos/Dunnes/Halfords/Currys etc

If it was me I would buy a roll of cheap tape in Dealz and tape the bike up in bits of torn up boxes till it was covered completely.

davo10

foggy_lad wrote: »

€30 is a MAJOR inconvenience imho and the shop are being unreasonable in their request.


If it was me I would buy a roll of cheap tape in Dealz and tape the bike up in bits of torn up boxes till it was covered completely.

Actually the €30 is a convenient way of not looking around for a box. Again, and try to think about this, if the bike was bought online, it is unlikely to have been bought from an Irish seller and is therefore subject to consumer law in the country where it came from.

Foggy you can wrap it in tree leaves if it makes you feel happier, but the courier may not accept it and when it arrives at the seller they may see damage not entirely due to a manufacturing fault.

slimjimmc

davo10 wrote: »

Actually the €30 is a convenient way of not looking around for a box. Again, and try to think about this, if the bike was bought online, it is unlikely to have been bought from an Irish seller and is therefore subject to consumer law in the country where it came from.

Foggy you can wrap it in tree leaves if it makes you feel happier, but the courier may not accept it and when it arrives at the seller they may see damage not entirely due to a manufacturing fault.

Not necessarily.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/consumer_affairs/consumer_protection/consumer_rights/consumer_rights_and_cross_border_shopping_in_the_european_union.html

The main rights that are given to every European consumer under the European Directive on certain aspects of the sale of consumer goods and associated guarantees (1999/44/EC) are set out below.

• If you purchase goods or services from another EU Member State and they were advertised in your country, you are protected under consumer law of your home country.
• If you purchased goods or services from a representative of the business in your home country, national consumer law of your home country protects you.
• If you buy goods or services while you were visiting another EU Member State the laws of the country in which you bought the items apply.

davo10

slimjimmc wrote: »

Not necessarily.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/consumer_affairs/consumer_protection/consumer_rights/consumer_rights_and_cross_border_shopping_in_the_european_union.html

Do you know for certain what the "main rights" and "certain aspects" are? Do they include the seller providing replacement packaging?, how would OP find out?, how would OP ensure that seller followed these rules, bring a case to the EU court?. Were they advertised in this country or did OP find it by doing a google search for a particular type of bike? Does google optimisation to ensure your website is on the first page constitute advertising in a particular country or does this refer to print/TV forms of media?

Some perspective is needed here, we are talking about a card board box, not a complex microchip costing thousands, the issue should have been whether the seller would accept the bike back no questions asked, not where OP got the box. It doesn't need to be a bicycle box, a couple of ordinary boxes taped together may do. OP could go to his local pub, if they serve food/snacks they will have loads of boxes, he/she could ask the recycling bin collectors where the local recycling centre is and he/she could have a pick of thousands of boxes.

And again, perhaps OP might inform us where the bike came from.

skelligs

foggy_lad wrote: »

The shop must repair replace or refund and you can not be obliged to retain packaging which would normally have been thrown away or recycled. The shop must provide packaging if required or refund you for any and all packaging costs.

foggy_lad wrote: »

The supplier must take back the goods at no cost to the buyer so that means they must cover any costs involved in posting and packaging

foggy_lad wrote: »

The online shop can tell the consumer what they want about sending it back in the original packaging but the law is different.

Where has the seller insisted on the original packaging? Please please please tell us, cos I can see it anywhere.

The seller has requested for it to be packaged safely, probably so that no further damage can be done.

The buyer cannot absolve himself/herself of responsibility of ensuring the package is properly and safely packed. If the OP simply sends it back without packaging, and it is further damaged, then the seller would be entitled to deduct reasonable costs.