HSE one of the most cost-effective in the world

Anita Blow

A report by the Royal Society of Medicine into 18 developed countries has found that the Irish health system saves the most lives per Euro spent than any other country in the developed world. It just beat out the UK, and was 3 times more cost effective than the US.
Paper free to read here- http://url.ie/rfcx

What does everyone think of this? It's interesting to note because it comes at a time in the UK when the NHS is being dismantled & privatised under the pretence of the Conservative government that the NHS performs worse than other health services, but this report outlines the exact opposite.

Ireland managed this with a healthcare expenditure just 7.1% of GDP, below the average of 7.4%. Definitely think we need to increase our healthcare spend to this average but only if it's combined with a slashing of middle & upper management.

D1stant

In the immortal words of Victor Meldrew... I don't believe it

I Heart Internet

Interesting. I can see it raising guffaws, but we should take on board an source of info that challenges our own preconceived notions (that the HSE waists money).

RoboRat

Once you get into the system its great, its getting in that is the problem...

conorhal

Who did the audit for them, Kevin Cardiff?

Anita Blow

That's true. There were reports recently the demonstrated the budget cuts to the HSE over the past 5 years resulted in a leaner health service. IE- Waiting lists & patient stats were improving while there was less money to be spent. But that by the beginning of this year, that had bottomed out and now budget cuts were beginning to damage services with waiting lists back on the rise.

We could definitely free up some money to be spent on frontline services without having to increase the budget if FG/Labour had the balls to make the cuts necessary to admin in the HSE.

MRnotlob606

lets be happy about this

Karl Stein

I Heart Internet wrote: »

(that the HSE waists money).

The belt tightening has helped reduce waist.







/runs

suicide_circus

Good news story

mickydoomsux

MRnotlob606 wrote: »

lets be happy about this

NEVER!!!!!!!!!!111111!!!!!! I despise things becoming demonstrably better!!!!!

This happened under the current government who are all very bad mans for trying to fix our broken country.

Any success stories are obviously lies.

Jawgap

Having experienced both the HSE and the NHS, I'd wouldn't believe that for a minute.

Clinically, the level of care in hospitals is comparable, but in terms of administrative efficiency and community health the HSE is still in the dark ages.......imo

The Backwards Man

How are the figures massaged? I mean, arrived at? Slip of the tongue there!

Anita Blow

The Backwards Man wrote: »

How are the figures massaged? I mean, arrived at? Slip of the tongue there!

It's a peer-reviewed journal in the UK. The methodology used in the paper is free to see if you'd like to pick flaws there.

I'd more readily believe a foreign reputable journal than some of the posters here who'd still bitch and complain even if the HSE cured cancer.

pickarooney

Would a lot this be explained by the fact that Irish people won't waste time and money going to a doctor for trivial complaints like rabies and decapitation?

The Backwards Man

Anita Blow wrote: »

It's a peer-reviewed journal in the UK. The methodology used in the paper is free to see if you'd like to pick flaws there.

I'd more readily believe a foreign reputable journal than some of the posters here who'd still bitch and complain even if the HSE cured cancer.

I'm not doubting the report, I just find it hard to believe. There must be some serious wasting of money in other countries.

I Heart Internet

pickarooney wrote: »

Would a lot this be explained by the fact that Irish people won't waste time and money going to a doctor for trivial complaints like rabies and decapitation?

"If the leprosy doesn't clear up before the Christmas break, I'll make an appointment!"

jimgoose

I Heart Internet wrote: »

"If the leprosy doesn't clear up before the Christmas break, I'll make an appointment!"

Reminds me of Dylan Moran after coughing on stage: "I have... something. It'll clear up. Might take me with it, but we'll see." :pac:

Boombastic

if you kill enough patients the numbers and money with sort themselves out

mickydoomsux

The Backwards Man wrote: »

I'm not doubting the report, I just find it hard to believe.

You do realize how idiotic that statement is, right?

darkpagandeath

pickarooney wrote: »

Would a lot this be explained by the fact that Irish people won't waste time and money going to a doctor for trivial complaints like rabies and decapitation?

Does your GP not just recommend taking antibiotics for things like that.

Banjo String

Father Fintan Stack will be playin the jungle beats tonight in celebration.

The Backwards Man

mickydoomsux wrote: »

You do realize how idiotic that statement is, right?

Not really no. I also find it hard to believe that not everyone in the world is as cool, calm, collected and awesome as I am, but I don't doubt that either.

Riskymove

Anita Blow wrote: »

What does everyone think of this?

Like every report based on statistics, you can always see things that stand out.

This is about how countries have done in reducing mortality rates from 1980 to 2005

given the advances in the period, the longer life expectancy and the level of expenditure and importantly, the fact that ireland had one of the highest mortality rates to begin with....it is not surprising that we would have done very well in reducing mortality rates

given the epxenditure is based on 1980-2005, for a lot of this period Ireland had little money and a low GDP which was then followed by a shorter period of high GDP and expenditure so figures can be skewed

it would also ignore the last decade of expenditure in health

I'm not doubting the report, I just find it hard to believe. There must be some serious wasting of money in other countries.

exactly the problem here, the report contains no breakdown analysis of spend whatsoever

shruikan2553

Anita Blow wrote: »

It's a peer-reviewed journal in the UK. The methodology used in the paper is free to see if you'd like to pick flaws there.

I'd more readily believe a foreign reputable journal than some of the posters here who'd still bitch and complain even if the HSE cured cancer.

They could cure cancer but you'll be dead by the time you reach the top of the list.

The NHS and HSE have similar levels of funding per capita yet the NHS covers prescription costs and it's cheaper to visit a GP. So I'm not too sure what kind of statistical chicanery is required to make the HSE even comparable to the NHS in terms of value for money.

Stheno

Deleted User wrote: »

The NHS and HSE have similar levels of funding per capita yet the NHS covers prescription costs and it's cheaper to visit a GP. So I'm not too sure what kind of statistical chicanery is required to make the HSE even comparable to the NHS in terms of value for money.

This is what I was thinking, similarly in the US you've to pay astronomical amounts for healthcare

Stheno

Stheno wrote: »

This is what I was thinking, similarly in the US you've to pay astronomical amounts for healthcare

You're agreeing that it makes no sense that the HSE could possibly be as good value as the NHS? Just checking :P

Have to wonder how they could actually evaluate the US "system" since they have no central admin like the HSE or NHS.

gctest50

Its for 1979–2005 - take a bow everyone who worked there a decade ago



Lots can happen in a few years, the Netherlands has one of the the most liberal abortion laws in the world ( which is a great thing ) :

......for a long time, the Netherlands also reported one of the world's lowest abortion rates. That low incidence abruptly began to rise in the mid-1990s.
Between 1996 and 2003, the abortion rate in the Netherlands jumped by 31% over seven years.

One reason why :

What changed? The Guttmacher Institute, the leading source of data on reproductive health worldwide, cites "a growing demand for terminations from women in ethnic minority groups residing in the country." Well over half of all abortions performed on teenagers in the Netherlands are performed on girls of non-Dutch origins.

Just had a look actually, apparently the NHS receives funding equivalent to £1,960 per person in the UK while in the last budget here spending was €13.3 billion which works out at about €2,900 per person. That's better value?

Wicklowrider

mickydoomsux wrote: »

NEVER!!!!!!!!!!111111!!!!!! I despise things becoming demonstrably better!!!!!

This happened under the current government who are all very bad mans for trying to fix our broken country.

Any success stories are obviously lies.

" Setting Nineteen Western countries’ mortality rates compared
between 1979 –2005." ?

celticcrash

Cost effective, LOL

I went in to Limerick University Hospital with chest pains.
After an ECG and other tests, the doctor told me the results would be posted out to the consultant. I said, dont you mean internal post. No external post.

So my results have to be brought down to the mailing office in the hospital.
Than collected to be brought to Cork for sorting. than brought back up to Limerick General PO to be sorted, than a post man will deliver the results back to the Limerick University Hospital to be delivered to the consultant.

Only in Ireland.

Stheno

Deleted User wrote: »

You're agreeing that it makes no sense that the HSE could possibly be as good value as the NHS? Just checking :P

Have to wonder how they could actually evaluate the US "system" since they have no central admin like the HSE or NHS.

No sorry, I didn't explain in my post. I was thinking about where the spending is going, and of the fact that so much less is paid for privately in the NHS yet there costs are on a par with ours according to this study.

If there was a breakdown of the spending I suspect you'd find there is more spend on admin here versus e.g. diagnostics tests than in the NHS

Stheno

Stheno wrote: »

No sorry, I didn't explain in my post. I was thinking about where the spending is going, and of the fact that so much less is paid for privately in the NHS yet there costs are on a par with ours according to this study.

If there was a breakdown of the spending I suspect you'd find there is more spend on admin here versus e.g. diagnostics tests than in the NHS

Probably more on admin alright, which is ironic given just how much the Brits complain about how inefficient the NHS apparently is. I think the complaints about wages here are undermined somewhat when you consider the amount of the NHS budget consumed by prescription costs and all the rest.

suicide_circus

I guess patients who die waiting on trolleys dont get counted as they never actually got to be treated?

porsche959

It's a kick in the teeth for the Joe Duffy whingefest brigade so on that grounds alone I welcome this.

celticcrash

celticcrash wrote: »

Cost effective, LOL

I went in to Limerick University Hospital with chest pains.
After an ECG and other tests, the doctor told me the results would be posted out to the consultant. I said, dont you mean internal post. No external post.

So my results have to be brought down to the mailing office in the hospital.
Than collected to be brought to Cork for sorting. than brought back up to Limerick General PO to be sorted, than a post man will deliver the results back to the Limerick University Hospital to be delivered to the consultant.

Only in Ireland.

Oh yea, by the time the post arrived back, I had a heart attack and died.

Jawgap

celticcrash wrote: »

Cost effective, LOL

I went in to Limerick University Hospital with chest pains.
After an ECG and other tests, the doctor told me the results would be posted out to the consultant. I said, dont you mean internal post. No external post.

So my results have to be brought down to the mailing office in the hospital.
Than collected to be brought to Cork for sorting. than brought back up to Limerick General PO to be sorted, than a post man will deliver the results back to the Limerick University Hospital to be delivered to the consultant.

Only in Ireland.

Post ? What is this 'post' you speak of?

When I was living in the UK, I cracked an ankle playing rugby. Off to hospital, where I was x-rayed, etc and stuck back together. The GP then took over the after care.

Was given an appointment by the hospital for the GP - attended as required and saw the Practice Nurse. My x-rays were available to her electronically over some dark, mysterious system known as d'interwebs........

.......that was over 10 years ago..........and the HSE still uses the 'post'........how quaint

KilOit

Jawgap wrote: »

Post ? What is this 'post' you speak of?

When I was living in the UK, I cracked an ankle playing rugby. Off to hospital, where I was x-rayed, etc and stuck back together. The GP then took over the after care.

Was given an appointment by the hospital for the GP - attended as required and saw the Practice Nurse. My x-rays were available to her electronically over some dark, mysterious system known as d'interwebs........

.......that was over 10 years ago..........and the HSE still uses the 'post'........how quaint

That's only changing this year, X-rays had to be put onto CD to be posted to other hospitals, it really is the dark ages when it comes to some systems in healthcare in Ireland

Jawgap

KilOit wrote: »

That's only changing this year, X-rays had to be put onto CD to be posted to other hospitals, it really is the dark ages when it comes to some systems in healthcare in Ireland

And just to be clear about two things......(before someone starts in on me )

First, the NHS is not perfect, but it seems to get a bit more of the right things, right than the HSE.

And second......there is no doubt in my mind that a large chunk of the clinical and allied staff in our hospitals are world class, let down by incompetent management and gombeen politicians.

.......and A&E staff aren't paid enough......

Mr. Incognito

Has anyone read the report.

It has NOTHING to do the HSE.

It takes economic spend compared to monthly death rates.

In other words, how many people die per month verses how much we spend on health. In a country that had mass emigration in the 80s and rubbish healthcare to a modern western country other factors like diet, exercise, improvements in technology etc play a part.

The results from the us are skewered by gun deaths for example.

This study is simplistic in the extreme and the HSE is NOT shown to be cost effective. In fact we are the only country spending LESS proportionately on healthcare which is a bad thing.

Smidge

Jawgap wrote: »

Post ? What is this 'post' you speak of?

When I was living in the UK, I cracked an ankle playing rugby. Off to hospital, where I was x-rayed, etc and stuck back together. The GP then took over the after care.

Was given an appointment by the hospital for the GP - attended as required and saw the Practice Nurse. My x-rays were available to her electronically over some dark, mysterious system known as d'interwebs........

.......that was over 10 years ago..........and the HSE still uses the 'post'........how quaint

Think that's bad?
One of my family members GP's practice DOESN'T have computers in the surgery(only one at the reception desk).
Everyones information is in an ACTUAL filing cabinet in the Dr's room:eek:
Their file is full of scraps of paper with their "medical notes" written on

ressem

Anita Blow wrote: »

That's true. There were reports recently the demonstrated the budget cuts to the HSE over the past 5 years resulted in a leaner health service. IE- Waiting lists & patient stats were improving while there was less money to be spent. But that by the beginning of this year, that had bottomed out and now budget cuts were beginning to damage services with waiting lists back on the rise.

We could definitely free up some money to be spent on frontline services without having to increase the budget if FG/Labour had the balls to make the cuts necessary to admin in the HSE.

It's efficiency expressed in % of GDP, so due to the unusual multinational transfers the HSE and irish private healthcare gets a really big head start over larger countries.
The report uses figures up to 2005. So the 7.9% fall in 2010 with wage cuts since aren't incorporated. Nor the GDP seesawing.

The big number is changes in society have decreased the mortality per million in the 15-75 age group from 10,374 in '79 to '81 to the 5,433 in '03-'05. Some will be healthcare, but a lot will be for other reasons.

Knasher

I wouldn't read too much into this to be honest, because it honestly doesn't surprise me that much. Imagine it as a curve, when you cut funding then for a time you can provide the same level of service by gutting the facilities budget and pushing machines past the point where they really need to be replaced. So there is an initial spike in effectiveness per euro, just after the funding cut. However over time facilities break and funding will need to be reallocated to replace them, therefore after a while the effectiveness will drop to be in line with the expenditure.

I suspect that we are on the leading edge of this curve, but I doubt we will be for long.