Over-reaction to fifteen y/o's admittedly nauseating comments

Mr Pseudonym

In the last week, a five year old boy named Oscar Knox died of a rare form of cancer. His situation was brought to wide-spread public attention because of a large cancer fund-raising drive by his parents and because of having been a mascot at a Celtic FC match, of which he was an avid supporter. That he should have been in so much pain in the time leading up to his death adds to the tragedy, and reading about him in preparation for posting this thread brought tears to my eyes.

However, the thread doesn't directly concern him. Following his death, a fifteen year old tweeted a (I'll avoid using an adjective) message to a friend, to which the friend replied. I'll quote, verbatim (save the asterisk), the exchange:

-"Hes bald, hes dead, hes under Smilers bed, Oscar Knox!"

-"IS OSCAR KNOX DEAD? LOL FENIAN *UNT"

- Screen-shot of the tweets -


The chain of events is unclear - while newspapers are happy to report the incident, most don't name the persons involved, and none that I saw quoted the tweet. But the first tweeter, who was an under-age footballer at Portadown FC, was suspended by his club, and both were questioned in a police station.

Under a Daily Mirror article describing the first tweet as "sickening", were a number of comments: "I don't know what he said, but he should be sacked and not just suspended!!" (which received 58 "Votes up"); "(they) are worse than bigots, they are vile bullies who targeted a little boy ... There are no words to describe these two cretins only that they are cowards of the worst kind ... so pathetic and so sick." (20 "Up votes"); "Absolute scumbag! Bigot! His apology is worthless. Suspended? He should lose everything." (57 "Up votes"). As well as the widespread media coverage, the tweeters received hostility on Twitter and Facebook.

No sensible person would defend the boys comments. But I can't help feel that there has been an over-reaction. What does anyone think?

Hotale.com

Ignoring it is really the best option, sickening comments but the guards getting involved won't really do anyone any favours. It's all just attention seeking bullsh*t.

Digital Society

Scumbags.

Amirani

What do you the overreaction is? Would you not consider the tweeters to be "bigots" and/or "scumbags"? I would.

Whether Portadown wants to release him or not is up to them, I wouldn't really have any problem with them if they did.

fullaljackeen

Twitter?

Will this make it onto DeJurnal tomorrow so?

Ihatecuddles

I think the people who said that are absolutely disgusting and I'm sure they'll realise that themselves when tragedy hits them.

There's always a mob waiting on the internet though.

No need for legal or criminal stuff for comments like that but it's always good when bigots show their true colours.

KKkitty

I'm sure that poor boy's family won't see it that way. Regardless of the age of the tweeters they should keep their sickening comments to themselves.

Dan_Solo

Twitter = who cares.
TBH, if you had put Twitter in the thread title I'd have skipped it too. It appears to only exist for people to annoy themselves. Has anything useful ever been Tweeted?

Someone called Eoin McCluskey calling someone a Fenian? Hmmmm.

Hotale.com

KKkitty wrote: »

I'm sure that poor boy's family won't see it that way. Regardless of the age of the tweeters they should keep their sickening comments to themselves.

They wouldn't have heard it were it not for the media reacting to it. It would have just been forgotten if no one reported it...

Amirani

Deleted User wrote: »

No need for legal or criminal stuff for comments like that but it's always good when bigots show their true colours.

I pretty much agree, I'm generally against police involved in these sorts of things.

However, the tweeters were minors and their views may as a result of ignorance and negative influences. Some sort of educational programme may not be a terrible thing.

dxhound2005

If they said this in a verbal exchange nothing could happen unless someone else overheard and decided to report it. When it was written and published on a medium which can be read worldwide it became subject to the same laws that apply to anything published in a newspaper, book or mazagine.

If it was published in a newspaper the police would have to investigate. The sooner people using the internet realise that they cannot write anything they like the better. This is far from the first case of this sort of thing.

anncoates

Should be released from the club, not suspended. Let's not forget that this is the North where this kind of disgusting sectarianism has often been much more than just words.

It's good to see the club taking it seriously.

FairytaleGirl

From someone born and reared in the North, 98% of people are trying to move past this kind of hatred and bullsh*t.

That's why in this particular situation I feel it's important to come down hard on these boys (particularly the portadown player who's in the public eye to an extent) - nipping the bitterness in the bud,or at least teach them what's acceptable - the older generation may be beyond saving but the younger ones aren't hopefully.

Aside from that its plain human compassion.

Snake

Little pricks.

Penny Tration

It's a scummy thing to do, and I don't think the comments you quoted were overreactions at all, really.

Those two twats did a disgusting thing in posting those tweets.

Amirani

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Twitter = who cares.
TBH, if you had put Twitter in the thread title I'd have skipped it too. It appears to only exist for people to annoy themselves. Has anything useful ever been Tweeted?

Of course, you just have to follow the right people. The list of people I follow is pretty much made up of sports analysts, economic and political writers and film critics. I've never really seen the likes of the material in the OP.

Snake

They deleted their accounts too... Anyone who knows them will be sure to give them a swift kick in the bricks

upstairs for coffee

He is 15 years old and is going to have this hanging over him for the rest of his life. Scummy comment, he was just being a twat. I don't see how this thread can be allowed open but the "my dad works at aib" Dublin girl thread closed?

Rip to the kid and thoughts with the family.

woodoo

Deleted User wrote: »

Someone called Eoin McCluskey calling someone a Fenian? Hmmmm.

Scumbag hope he gets a punch in the mouth.

KKkitty

Hotale.com wrote: »

They wouldn't have heard it were it not for the media reacting to it. It would have just been forgotten if no one reported it...

The media sure likes to draw attention to anything that will cause a stir but it's down to the role of social media to curtail this behaviour too. Twitter is vapid at the best of times but people feel the incessant need to type almost every banal and insensitive thought that comes into their heads without thinking of the repercussions.

Larry Wildman

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Someone called Eoin McCluskey calling someone a Fenian? Hmmmm.

Just what I was thinking.

What's next...Darby O'Gill marching on the 12th?

The clowns in question are just attention seeking and saying vile things to get attention.

anncoates

Getting the police involved is probably a bit much although I think the club should boot him out. He's a kid but 15 is still old enough to face at least some consequences.

Mr Pseudonym

Largely hostile comments so far. My tuppence:

Given that they are young, their views and opinions are almost entirely the result of their upbringing and surroundings. That's not to absolve them of responsibility, but we should seek to correct that flaw rather than berate them for having it. Also, you can be sure that many others made similar comments which did not reach public attention, and the comments I quoted in the OP seem to lack an awareness of that.

I never find it edifying to see adults berating children, and I think it displays a lack of sophistication.

IMO, ostracising is more effective than attack.

Media organisations were wrong to publicise it.

As regards the potential consequences of one's actions on twitter: perhaps it should be the case that all Twitter users under eighteen have their profile locked to private, which requires that one send a request to a tweeter in order to become a follower (given that some under-18s (boyband singers, for instance) have hundreds-of-thousands of followers, that would probably be resisted).

Smidge

I'm torn on this one tbh.
While what they said was vile, it was also said by 15 year olds.
ANYONE who has or had a 15 year old will know that they spew utter garbage most of the time. The give very little thought to what comes out of their mouths before their "brain" has a chance to fire.
A family has lost a child who cannot be replaced after a horrible illness.
But to boot a kid out of his football club and get police involved over this?
Far too heavy handed imo.

frostyjacks

I'm glad these two idiots are being made to squirm. Their comments were disgusting and sectarian to boot. As for the media being wrong to publicise it, the two lads publicised it themselves when they put it on the internet. The BBC isn't actually covering it, although if it was two GAA players mocking the death of a child, I'm sure they'd have a field day.

dxhound2005

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

Largely hostile comments so far. My tuppence:

Given that they are young, their views and opinions are almost entirely the result of their upbringing and surroundings. That's not to absolve them of responsibility, but we should seek to correct that flaw rather than berate them for having it. Also, you can be sure that many others made similar comments which did not reach public attention, and the comments I quoted in the OP seem to lack an awareness of that.

I never find it edifying to see adults berating children, and I think it displays a lack of sophistication.

IMO, ostracising is more effective than attack.

Media organisations were wrong to publicise it.

As regards the potential consequences of one's actions on twitter: perhaps it should be the case that all Twitter users under eighteen have their profile locked to private, which requires that one send a request to a tweeter in order to become a follower (given that some under-18s (boyband singers, for instance) have hundreds-of-thousands of followers, that would probably be resisted).

How should we on After Hours go about seeking to correct the flaw? And what sort of responses did you expect when you decided to air this on a public forum, something you think is wrong for media organisations to do? That they were just having a bit of fun, no harm in it?

Saying the police shouldn't get involved ignores that fact that they have to investigate whether the crime of publishing a grossly offensive communication has been committed. Just like they had to do in England which led to the jailing of a person in a recent case and two other arrests including a 16 year old.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-south-west-wales-27328669

anncoates

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

Given that they are young, their views and opinions are almost entirely the result of their upbringing and surroundings

That's why casual sectarianism has to be opposed at every stage to break that cycle.

Where does it end and start in a society like the north? What they said is symptomatic of a wider malaise in wider society in the north.

Nobody is saying send the kids to jail but Portadown are a club that draw most of their support from the Protestant community and as such should be seen to stamp down on sectarian comments about Catholics. Like a club based in a Catholic community should, if the situation was reversed.

Smidge

dxhound2005 wrote: »

How should we on After Hours go about seeking to correct the flaw? And what sort of responses did you expect when you decided to air this on a public forum, something you think is wrong for media organisations to do? That they were just having a bit of fun, no harm in it?

Saying the police shouldn't get involved ignores that fact that they have to investigate whether the crime of publishing a grossly offensive communication has been committed. Just like they had to do in England which led to the jailing of a person in a recent case and two other arrests including a 16 year old.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-south-west-wales-27328669

To be fair, being offensive isn't against the law though.

Shakespeare's Sister

The BBC doesn't cover lots of things, I doubt it would cover GAA players tweeting stuff like this. The BBC does not have a pro loyalist or whatever agenda in fairness.

No need for police involvement in this case (they police wouldn't be involved if there was face-to-face harassment, so getting involved for tweets is just bizarre) but the little bigots deserve to be banned from Twitter, in my opinion.

dxhound2005

Smidge wrote: »

To be fair, being offensive isn't against the law though.

Sending a grossly offensive message on a communications network is a crime in the UK.

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/a_to_c/communications_offences/#an12

If a message sent is grossly offensive, indecent, obscene, menacing or false it is irrelevant whether it was received. The offence is one of sending, so it is committed when the sending takes place. The test for "grossly offensive" was stated by the House of Lords in DPP v Collins [2006] 1 WLR 2223 to be whether the message would cause gross offence to those to whom it relates (in that case ethnic minorities), who need not be the recipients. The case also said that it is justifiable under ECHR Art 10(2) to prosecute somebody who has used the public telecommunications system to leave racist messages.

A person guilty of an offence under section 127 CA 2003 shall be liable, on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or to a fine or to both. This offence is part of the fixed penalty scheme.

Mr Pseudonym

dxhound2005 wrote: »

How should we on After Hours go about seeking to correct the flaw?

I was referring to Society.

And what sort of responses did you expect when you decided to air this on a public forum, something you think is wrong for media organisations to do?

That is the most trite of arguments. It has been publicised, and I'm commenting on the manner in which it was and whether it was appropriate.

Saying the police shouldn't get involved ignores that fact that they have to investigate whether the crime of publishing a grossly offensive communication has been committed.

I'm sympathetic to that argument.

ringadingding

Can somebody give some context to the " smilers bed" bit ?

Smidge

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Sending a grossly offensive message on a communications network is a crime in the UK.

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/a_to_c/communications_offences/#an12

If a message sent is grossly offensive, indecent, obscene, menacing or false it is irrelevant whether it was received. The offence is one of sending, so it is committed when the sending takes place. The test for "grossly offensive" was stated by the House of Lords in DPP v Collins [2006] 1 WLR 2223 to be whether the message would cause gross offence to those to whom it relates (in that case ethnic minorities), who need not be the recipients. The case also said that it is justifiable under ECHR Art 10(2) to prosecute somebody who has used the public telecommunications system to leave racist messages.

A person guilty of an offence under section 127 CA 2003 shall be liable, on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or to a fine or to both. This offence is part of the fixed penalty scheme.

Well then I stand corrected.
But it makes you wonder about comedians and the like who say grossly offensive things via media(tv etc)on a regular basis and are not held accountable for it.

Mr Pseudonym

anncoates wrote: »

That's why casual sectarianism has to be opposed at every stage to break that cycle.

Where does it end and start in a society like the north? What they said is symptomatic of a wider malaise in wider society in the north.

I agree wholeheartedly. But I'm uncomfortable that, more than their actions, the two tweeters, themselves, have been vilified.

Mr Pseudonym

Smidge wrote: »

Well then I stand corrected.
But it makes you wonder about comedians and the like who say grossly offensive things via media(tv etc)on a regular basis and are not held accountable for it.

The likes of Frankie Boyle have been critical of such laws.

anncoates

frostyjacks wrote: »

IThe BBC isn't actually covering it, although if it was two GAA players mocking the death of a child, I'm sure they'd have a field day.

Conjectural , politically motivated tub thumping, tbh.

Smidge

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

The likes of Frankie Boyle have been critical of such laws.

While I'm no fan of his he was actually who I was thinking of.
He has made some horrendous "jokes" over the years.
Have the police ever been involved?

anncoates

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

I agree wholeheartedly. But I'm uncomfortable that, more than their actions, the two tweeters, themselves, have been vilified.

Wouldn't be a fan of Internet mob action either but unfortunately they themselves took it to the net first.

While I agree with the club taking action, I personally wouldn't agree with police action.

Mr Pseudonym

anncoates wrote: »

Wouldn't be a fan of Internet mob action either but unfortunately they themselves took it to the net first.

While I agree with the club taking action, I personally wouldn't agree with police action.

I know that the distinction doesn't apply as far as the law is concerned, but they didn't "take it to the net"; they posted it to their few hundred followers, from where it was disseminated.

NIMAN

Youngsters have been saying sick stuff for years, unfortunately for them they are saying it on the internet now, and once on there, it can never be retracted.

Teenagers will always be teenagers.

But nowadays there is a massive audience out there just waiting to be offended. And a lot of things offend them.

anncoates

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

I know that the distinction doesn't apply as far as the law is concerned, but they didn't "take it to the net"; they posted it to their few hundred followers, from where it was disseminated.

Given the ease of potential dissemination, it's a defacto public comment.

Shakespeare's Sister

NIMAN wrote: »

Youngsters have been saying sick stuff for years, unfortunately for them they are saying it on the internet now, and once on there, it can never be retracted.

Teenagers will always be teenagers.

Yeh if they regret this in years to come (which they probably will) it's on record; thank feck there was no social media when I was a dopey teenager.

Mr Pseudonym

anncoates wrote: »

Given the ease of potential dissemination, it's a defacto public comment.

Ofc. I wonder should not social media education be more substantially included in SPH Education in school.

anncoates

Maybe they will regret it and maybe they won't. If everybody magically became beacons of tolerance in the north at the age of 16, we'd have saved ourselves a lot of trouble.

Have no Idea If they're just dumb kids or future bigots. Not sure how anybody else can be so sure unless they know them.

riffmongous

Magaggie wrote: »

Yeh if they regret this in years to come (which they probably will) it's on record; thank feck there was no social media when I was a dopey teenager.

Hm, I don't think most of us were calling 5 years who died of cancer ***** when we were that age though

Mr. McGreg

They get no sympathy from me, if you're 15 you're not a child and they know what they said. Portadown should be releasing that first lad from their youth team and the minimum he should get is a suspension from playing football for a few years, teach them a lesson at least. Vile comments, if they said them out loud somewhere they'd probably be decked.

Mr Pseudonym

ringadingding wrote: »

Can somebody give some context to the " smilers bed" bit ?

I was also wondering about that. Does anyone know if "Under Smiler's bed" is some sectarian allusion?

Cantremember

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Twitter = who cares.
TBH, if you had put Twitter in the thread title I'd have skipped it too. It appears to only exist for people to annoy themselves. Has anything useful ever been Tweeted?

I thought I saw a puddy tat?

padd b1975

Interestingly dismissive attitude towards Twitter on here compared to the OTT theatrical outrage towards a tweet about homosexuality from RTE.

Good old After Hours!

It's the subjective moral compass of this country lol.