Munster vs Ulster Ravens; Sat 10 May 6:30pm; RTE2

thomond2006

MUNSTER:

Jones, VHD, Laulala, Downey, Zebo, Keatley, Williams,
Kilcoyne, Varley-Capt, Ryan, Foley, POC, Butler, Dougall, Coughlan

Replacements: MacDonald, Cronin, Cotter, B Holland, O'Donnell, Murray, Hanrahan, Earls

Strong enough side, CJ getting a rest after putting in some massive performances recently. Dougall and TOD continue to be rotated.

I'm looking for a big performance from Williams in this, he has shown glimpses of good play and it's about time he gets consistency in his performances. Van Den Heever too needs to start producing and eliminating the errors from his game or the more dependable Murphy will take his spot.

Serious bench for Munster, but I still don't get the point of playing MacDonald. He won't be here next season, Scannell will be.

ULSTER:

(15-9): C Gilroy, D McIlwaine, M Allen, S McCloskey, R Scholes, J McKinney, M Heaney;
(1-8); C Black, R Herring, A Warwick, L Stevenson, D Tuohy (Captain), M McComish, S Doyle, N Williams;

Replacements (16-23): K McCall, B Ross, A Macklin, N McComb, C Joyce, D Shanahan, R Andrew, P Nelson.

A lot of talent in that starting XV but that bench...

.ak

As expected. I'm almost surprised Ulster didn't just concede a walkover.

irishbucsfan

You know it's a weak Ulster team when McComish's name doesn't stand out.

Still I enjoy watching these games with weaker sides, a great opportunity for someone to put their hand up.

Mahatma Geansai

That's an insulting lineup by Ulster.

vienne86

Gilroy at FB?

Very weak Ulster team - obviously resigned to their fate.

irishbucsfan

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

That's an insulting lineup by Ulster.

Yes how dare they send a weakened side to Munster, who of course always play their strongest possible side and never rest players.

What was that statistic about POC never playing in Ravenhill?

Cookiemunster

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yes how dare they send a weakened side to Munster, who of course always play their strongest possible side and never rest players.

What was that statistic about POC never playing in Ravenhill?

You mean the POC who played there in January?

sydthebeat

interested to see how scholes will do... i assume he faces up against zeebs?

CIARAN_BOYLE

sydthebeat wrote: »

interested to see how scholes will do... i assume he faces up against zeebs?

no 11 faces up against 14

irishbucsfan

Cookiemunster wrote: »

You mean the POC who played there in January?

Yes, wasn't that his first time playing there in a very long time? I think it was jm08 who mentioned the stat. Or maybe it was a different Munster player.

bilston

POC has played at Ravenhill a couple of times. ROGs last appearance for Munster at Ravenhill was in 2002 I believe.

Mahatma Geansai

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yes how dare they send a weakened side to Munster, who of course always play their strongest possible side and never rest players.

What was that statistic about POC never playing in Ravenhill?

There's a difference between a weakened side, and a squad that contains maybe 5 players who would make a first choice 23, only 2 of them who normally start.

bilston

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

There's a difference between a weakened side, and a squad that contains maybe 5 players who would make a first choice 23, only 2 of them who normally start.

Teams rotate all the time in the Pro 12. Munster are masters at it. Munster rarely sent anything close to their strongest team to Ravenhill when they were at their strongest so enough of the hypocrisy please.

irishbucsfan

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

There's a difference between a weakened side, and a squad that contains maybe 5 players who would make a first choice 23, only 2 of them who normally start.

What's the difference? How many players are you allowed to rest before it becomes an "insult," is there a written set of rules for that?

Tox56

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

There's a difference between a weakened side, and a squad that contains maybe 5 players who would make a first choice 23, only 2 of them who normally start.

It literally makes no difference to Ulster whether they win this game by 60 or lose it by 60, what exactly did you expect them to do ahead of a guaranteed league semi-final and an already significant injury list?

Podge_irl

To be fair, that's not a "weakened" team. There is literally not a single first choice player in it. It's an A side.

I don't necessarily blame Ulster for it bit I don't like seeing it.

ScissorPaperRock

It would be downright stupid of Ulster to risk the frontline players that remain for absolutely no gain ahead of a semi-final.

From any perspective, that would be terrible management of resources.

awec

bilston wrote: »

POC has played at Ravenhill a couple of times. ROGs last appearance for Munster at Ravenhill was in 2002 I believe.

ROG came off the bench last year at ravenhill.

Ye not remember he spent like 5 minutes trying to line up a drop goal at the end?

bilston

Podge_irl wrote: »

To be fair, that's not a "weakened" team. There is literally not a single first choice player in it. It's an A side.
.

Dan Tuohy and from next season (now really), Callum Black, beg to differ, not that that invalidates your point!

bilston

awec wrote: »

ROG came off the bench last year at ravenhill.

Ye not remember he spent like 5 minutes trying to line up a drop goal at the end?

FFS awec, are you not on my team!

How many appearances were there between that cameo and 2002?

awec

bilston wrote: »

FFS awec, are you not on my team!

How many appearances were there between that cameo and 2002?

I am. It's the exact lineup that the match needs.

Meaningless fixture for Ulster - send the ravens.

sydthebeat

the result is meaningless for ulster...

They are decimated with injuries already.

What did people expect them to do, ahead of a rabo semi final?

.ak

sydthebeat wrote: »

the result is meaningless for ulster...

They are decimated with injuries already.

What did people expect them to do, ahead of a rabo semi final?

I don't think anyone expected them to do anything but this, in fairness.

.ak

Had Ospreys not lost against the worst team in the league last week this game would've been interesting. Still wondering how that happened.

sydthebeat

.ak wrote: »

I don't think anyone expected them to do anything but this, in fairness.

agreed, thats why i dont get this whole "insulting lineup" craic....


but on review, its only one poster saying so.

phog

Ulster team much as expected, it's tough on Ulster with their current injuries but if Glasgow lose they won't be too happy with Ulster, of course that depends on Munster doing the business too.

As both teams prepare for their respective S/finals this game woth be great prep for either teams.

bilston

phog wrote: »

Ulster team much as expected, it's tough on Ulster with their current injuries but if Glasgow lose they won't be too happy with Ulster, of course that depends on Munster doing the business too.

As both teams prepare for their respective S/finals this game woth be great prep for either teams.

If Glasgow lose at home to Zebre I'd say Ulster's line up will be the last thing on their minds!

CatFromHue

I hope Munster annihilate Ulster.

ScissorPaperRock

CatFromHue wrote: »

I hope Munster annihilate Ulster.

Jesus! Bit harsh...

CatFromHue

Not really.

Ulster aren't even trying, they've accepted their loss already, so why not wish for them to lose by 50-60+

Munster have scored over 50 twice already this season and I hope they do so again.

stephen_n

Would be more than mildly amusing if Ulster held their own.

irishbucsfan

CatFromHue wrote: »

Not really.

Ulster aren't even trying, they've accepted their loss already, so why not wish for them to lose by 50-60+

Munster have scored over 50 twice already this season and I hope they do so again.

Fair enough.

But also it'd be great for Irish rugby if one of the Ulster "nobodies" (not to be insulting to them) had a breakout game!

[Jackass]

Ulster undermining the league and the opposition, a real insult to the likes of Glasgow and Leinster. Like in football, naming a clearly understrength side to virtually throw a game should result in deduction of league points. Had this game of been played at a different stage in the campaign, the most Munster could hope for would be 4 league points, now it's a banker 5 pointer.

I don't think it'll matter in the end, as both Leinster and Glasgow will more than likely get 5 league point wins, but given so much is at stake, Ulster have a responsibility to the league to remain competitive until the last weekend, as nobody else had the luxury of playing the Ulster U-12's in a crunch top of the table clash.

I'd like to see some league action taken for future scenarios, as had the last weekend been a bit tighter (Glasgow and Leinster not having relatively straight forward home games left) and a team fielding a weakened team clearly affecting the final play-off spots is clearly unacceptable.

Digifriendly

[Jackass] wrote: »

Ulster undermining the league and the opposition, a real insult to the likes of Glasgow and Leinster. Like in football, naming a clearly understrength side to virtually throw a game should result in deduction of league points. Had this game of been played at a different stage in the campaign, the most Munster could hope for would be 4 league points, now it's a banker 5 pointer.

I don't think it'll matter in the end, as both Leinster and Glasgow will more than likely get 5 league point wins, but given so much is at stake, Ulster have a responsibility to the league to remain competitive until the last weekend, as nobody else had the luxury of playing the Ulster U-12's in a crunch top of the table clash.

I'd like to see some league action taken for future scenarios, as had the last weekend been a bit tighter (Glasgow and Leinster not having relatively straight forward home games left) and a team fielding a weakened team clearly affecting the final play-off spots is clearly unacceptable.

If you were Mark Anscombe given the injury list and fact that they cannot improve their league position, what would you have done?

danthefan

[Jackass] wrote: »

Ulster undermining the league and the opposition, a real insult to the likes of Glasgow and Leinster. Like in football, naming a clearly understrength side to virtually throw a game should result in deduction of league points. Had this game of been played at a different stage in the campaign, the most Munster could hope for would be 4 league points, now it's a banker 5 pointer.

In football you're allowed name anyone from your designated 23 or 25 man squad, how many named there are from outside the senior Ulster squad?

[Jackass]

Digifriendly wrote: »

If you were Mark Anscombe given the injury list and fact that they cannot improve their league position, what would you have done?

I would have done the exact same thing, as there are no rules surrounding it and thus you can throw the game.

In a different scenario however (that could be of benefit to Ulster preventing someone else from not throwing the game), it could give unfair advantage in some other season.

Imagine Ulster were 2nd, Leinster were 3rd, tied on points, and Ulster were away to Glasgow and Leinster were at home to Munster, but Munster had secured first place no matter what and sent a complete reserve team to Dublin and Leinster got 5 points and Ulster got 4, where as usually Leinster could only expect a 4 point win at best, and had Munster of sent a full strength team, in all likelyhood Leinster would not get a BP win, but they did because of understrength team being sent, thereby losing Ulster a home semi and having to visit Leinster instead.... what was Anscombe say to that?

I'm not blaming him, it's more criticising the rules surrounding the competition, as there's no responsibility to maintain a certain level of integrity to the league and your opposition.

Buer

[Jackass] wrote: »

Ulster undermining the league and the opposition, a real insult to the likes of Glasgow and Leinster. Like in football, naming a clearly understrength side to virtually throw a game should result in deduction of league points. Had this game of been played at a different stage in the campaign, the most Munster could hope for would be 4 league points, now it's a banker 5 pointer.

I don't think it'll matter in the end, as both Leinster and Glasgow will more than likely get 5 league point wins, but given so much is at stake, Ulster have a responsibility to the league to remain competitive until the last weekend, as nobody else had the luxury of playing the Ulster U-12's in a crunch top of the table clash.

I'd like to see some league action taken for future scenarios, as had the last weekend been a bit tighter (Glasgow and Leinster not having relatively straight forward home games left) and a team fielding a weakened team clearly affecting the final play-off spots is clearly unacceptable.

Take a deep breath. There is bugger all at stake. Look at the table again. Glasgow don't need a 5 point win to hold onto second. Leinster don't need one to hold onto top spot.

The match is completely dead rubber unless Glasgow lose. At home. To Zebre.

And if they do that, then screw them, they don't deserve a home semi final.

CIARAN_BOYLE

danthefan wrote: »

In football you're allowed name anyone from your designated 23 or 25 man squad, how many named there are from outside the senior Ulster squad?

For the Rabo you have to name a 38 man senior squad which you are allowed to changed at any time up to early March, so by inference they are all a part of that 38.

Also the squad in football doesn't count under 23s iirc.

[Jackass]

Buer wrote: »

Take a deep breath.

Ha! I'm not sure what part of my post made you think I was in any way irate..

Was it "I don't think it'll matter in the end" or "I'd like to see some league action taken for future scenarios as had the last weekend been a bit tighter (Glasgow and Leinster not having relatively straight forward home games left)" or "I would have done the exact same thing, as there are no rules surrounding it and thus you can throw the game" or "I'm not blaming him, it's more criticising the rules surrounding the competition"....

CatFromHue

The North/South terraces won't be open in Thomond tomorrow

Buer

No, not any one particular part...

[Jackass]

danthefan wrote: »

In football you're allowed name anyone from your designated 23 or 25 man squad, how many named there are from outside the senior Ulster squad?

3 academy and 2 more with 10 or less caps, so about a third of the team, but obviously it's not black and white, I don't think the rules in football are either, I think the rule is more if you think a team could name a stronger team but intentionally chose not to, the club can be disciplined. Again, I'm just pointing out how this could cause major problems at some point in the future, it could be the difference for a team being home or away in the play-offs, or even if they qualify or not for a European Cup worth millions to the club... there's a responsibility to be as competitive as possible for the entirety of the league. It's a rule in other sports and given the potential of the problems this could cause, it would make sense to have it in rugby too.

Buer wrote: »

No, not any one particular part...

Then what are you talking about? I'm pointing out a potential problem, not having a hissy fit...

irishbucsfan

[Jackass] wrote: »

I think the rule is more if you think a team could name a stronger team but intentionally chose not to, the club can be disciplined.

This Ulster lineup is very similar to the United team that played Hull towards the end of the season in 2009. It was a dead rubber for United so they sent a 2nd team to Hull. And Hull survived relegation that day.

How much were United fined? Absolutely nothing. Nothing was said. Because there was no reason for them to send a stronger team. Wolves were fined the next season when they sent a weaker team in the middle of the season, but this Ulster team is much more comparable to the first example.

This is not handled any differently to how it is handled by the Premier League in soccer, so I'm not sure why you're saying it is?

Volvic12

I 100% understand where Ulster are coming from as there is nothing at stake from their point of view and they are not breaking any rules (that I'm aware off ) by doing so. Still very disappointed with that. I was considering driving down from Dublin for the game but once I saw the line-ups, there is not a chance that will happen. Cost of a ticket, petrol etc. is not worth it when Ulster themselves have no interest in the game. Shame really as Ulster v Leinster was a cracker last week. That is my issue with Pro12. Too much "rotation" in comparison to English Premiership or Top 14.

I would bet that if this game was in Ravenhill and there was nothing to play for, they would not have sent out such a weak team.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Volvic12 wrote: »

I would bet that if this game was in Ravenhill and there was nothing to play for, they would not have sent out such a weak team.

If the game was in Ravenhill and Munster had nothing to play what team would Munster have put out?

I'm aware that the Munster team would be stronger as they have better depth but there would be significant rotation.

thomond2006

Funnily enough Saracens have named their B team for their trip to Leicester. Pot kettle etc

danthefan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

This Ulster lineup is very similar to the United team that played Hull towards the end of the season in 2009. It was a dead rubber for United so they sent a 2nd team to Hull. And Hull survived relegation that day.

How much were United fined? Absolutely nothing. Nothing was said. Because there was no reason for them to send a stronger team. Wolves were fined the next season when they sent a weaker team in the middle of the season, but this Ulster team is much more comparable to the first example.

This is not handled any differently to how it is handled by the Premier League in soccer, so I'm not sure why you're saying it is?

The rules were changed subsequently because I think everyone realised how stupid it was to fine Wolves for playing a team made up of players registered in their senior squad.

T14 teams send their seconds to away games as a matter of routine. Ulster are attempting to maximise their chances in the playoffs, it's a completely rational thing to do, they don't have a responsibility to anyone else.

matthew8

Volvic12 wrote: »

I 100% understand where Ulster are coming from as there is nothing at stake from their point of view and they are not breaking any rules (that I'm aware off ) by doing so. Still very disappointed with that. I was considering driving down from Dublin for the game but once I saw the line-ups, there is not a chance that will happen. Cost of a ticket, petrol etc. is not worth it when Ulster themselves have no interest in the game. Shame really as Ulster v Leinster was a cracker last week. That is my issue with Pro12. Too much "rotation" in comparison to English Premiership or Top 14.

I would bet that if this game was in Ravenhill and there was nothing to play for, they would not have sent out such a weak team.

You should have a look at the Leicester and Saracens line ups then. Sarries, 1st place secure, have sent a second team, while Leicester have rested some of their first choice forwards in expectation of a Northampton win at home to Wasps. And you can be sure if Toulon had first place secured last week the second team would've been sent out too.

Volvic12

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

If the game was in Ravenhill and Munster had nothing to play what team would Munster have put out?

No idea but I would like to think Munster would have rotated and played a mix of Academy and 1st team players. The team Ulster are putting out will do absolutely nothing for the development of them young players if Munster put a big score on them.
Look, who knows, perhaps Ulster will surprise and be competitive but all I know is Munster fans who have tickets will be disappointed, neutrals will be disappointed, RTE will be disappointed (showing it live) and I'm sure Ulster fans will be disappointed if they get beaten badly.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Volvic12 wrote: »

No idea but I would like to think Munster would have rotated and played a mix of Academy and 1st team players. The team Ulster are putting out will do absolutely nothing for the development of them young players if Munster put a big score on them.
Look, who knows, perhaps Ulster will surprise and be competitive but all I know is Munster fans who have tickets will be disappointed, neutrals will be disappointed, RTE will be disappointed (showing it live) and I'm sure Ulster fans will be disappointed if they get beaten badly.

Now that I look at things more, that is the fit and available first choice front row, an international and wolfhound in the second row, A Junior All Black at 8, and there is an international at 15 too.

I imagine that Ulster would have sent a mix usually but they have a major injury crisis up there at the moment.

What team would Munster put out of there was 10 of the first and second choice pack out injured.

Volvic12

matthew8 wrote: »

You should have a look at the Leicester and Saracens line ups then. Sarries, 1st place secure, have sent a second team, while Leicester have rested some of their first choice forwards in expectation of a Northampton win at home to Wasps. And you can be sure if Toulon had first place secured last week the second team would've been sent out too.

I was waiting for that point and it's fair to an extent. However, look at the results. Sarries have often been winning when they have sent out a weakend team (not a 2nds side)
Toulon's 2nd team would beat most 1st teams.