Expectation to work late

Elessar

How common is an expectation to work late, unpaid? Where I work (finance related) there is a kind of unwritten rule that it is the done thing and even expected quite often. I know people who have so much work to do they sometimes have to arrive in at 8am and finish at 10pm (normal working day would be 9-6).

My department is not that bad however I am dead set against this way of going on. I've no problem once in a blue moon doing a few extra hours in a week to get something done (and by once in a blue moon I mean once a year or twice a year at most) but my supervisor has a specific expectation on me quite often to stay late, and it puts a lot of pressure on me. For example, setting me work to do which would take a few hours when I am due to go home in an hour (and it HAS to be done). Then again my boss is a renowned selfish person who doesn't give a damn about his employees (only points out mistakes in work and never praises).

In fact when I complained about the hours some of the staff had to put in, he told me "you're paid to do a job. No matter how long it takes you to do it, you do it, full stop".

Is this common? I had no choice but to leave on time today yet he sent me files to prepare about an hour before I left which take a few hours on a good day. I rushed through them and no doubt he will find some niggly mistakes to complain about tomorrow so I am dreading it. He wasn't too impressed I was leaving either. I just don't like having to feel bad for leaving on time.

bee06

It seems to be a common occurance in Finance alright based on my experience. In the company I work for a lot of the finance people work crazy hours and I have gotten emails from one person in particular at 3 or 4 in the morning. Another woman worked 8 to at least 8 every day and then might do a few hours on Saturday as well. It got to the point where she actually made herself sick because of it.

I'm like you, I have no problem doing more hours if needed at month end or something but not every day. I'd say your boss is making a power play now to push you into working late and once you start making it a regular occurance then it will soon become the norm and once that happens it's very hard to go back to regular hours.

NZ_2014

I know the feeling, seems to be common in a lot of salaried jobs. Only thing that would ease the pain is being paid very well for it, but this is less common to be paid well in current climate!

"Sure aren`t ya lucky to have a job, we could just hire someone on JobBridge for free"

boredatwork82

I work in finance myself. A lot if older accountants work late regularly like its a badgr of honour. I only do it when i am having a bad month end.

its important that you lay down a marker. Leave at finish time every day and eventually people will get use to it and come to terms that you wont be in the office after 5. A lot who work late regularly do so out of habit and actually spend half their day smoking or browsingthe net. Just try and get into the habit of going home early, and other people will start to copy you.

No Pants

Elessar wrote: »

In fact when I complained about the hours some of the staff had to put in, he told me "you're paid to do a job. No matter how long it takes you to do it, you do it, full stop".

Is that what it says in your contract or does it say that you have a 40 hour week?

Elessar

No Pants wrote: »

Is that what it says in your contract or does it say that you have a 40 hour week?

Nope it says a 40 hour week. Doesn't seem to phase him anyway.

No Pants

Elessar wrote: »

Nope it says a 40 hour week. Doesn't seem to phase him anyway.

Start going home on time. That's all there is to it.

The way I look at it, if everyone is working extra hours, they're keeping someone else out of a job.

Stheno

Elessar wrote: »

Nope it says a 40 hour week. Doesn't seem to phase him anyway.

Does it include any phrasing along the lines of "You may be asked to work overtime which will be unpaid"?

Elessar

Stheno wrote: »

Does it include any phrasing along the lines of "You may be asked to work overtime which will be unpaid"?

Nope. In fact it mentions that any overtime required will be "agreed in advance with your manager" and paid at time and a third.

Hell will freeze over before I ever get overtime. There's a strict moratorium on it.

Stheno

Elessar wrote: »

Nope. In fact it mentions that any overtime required will be "agreed in advance with your manager" and paid at time and a third.

Hell will freeze over before I ever get overtime. There's a strict moratorium on it.

Then without that clause they have nothing to enforce those extra hours for you if your contract states 9-6 and overtime agreed in advance.

I have one of those contracts that state normal hours with an overtime/unpaid clause which is a pain in the ass, I've worked up to eighty hours a week at times, travelled at weekends etc

However in some industries (I'm in IT and I've found the same in finance) being a clockwatcher or being perceived as such can be detrimental to your progression

NZ_2014

Stheno wrote: »

Does it include any phrasing along the lines of "You may be asked to work overtime which will be unpaid"?

Aka "We own you and you will do whatever hours are required to get the job done! "

No Pants

Elessar wrote: »

Nope. In fact it mentions that any overtime required will be "agreed in advance with your manager" and paid at time and a third.

Then there should be no impediment to you leaving on time every day.

ryan101

There's nothing like making people to work for free. Extra fat profit.

NZ_2014

Elessar wrote: »

Nope. In fact it mentions that any overtime required will be "agreed in advance with your manager" and paid at time and a third.

People should (if not desperate for the job!) start crossing out the unpaid overtime clauses in contracts and writing in a clause like the above for over time to be agreed in advance and paid...that'll learn them!

mada999

Elessar wrote: »

Nope. In fact it mentions that any overtime required will be "agreed in advance with your manager" and paid at time and a third.

Hell will freeze over before I ever get overtime. There's a strict moratorium on it.

that's madness, why do you work "overtime" if you are not getting paid overtime?!? you have to look at yourself here.... start making excuses, "Sorry, i have an appointment", "Sorry, i've to mind kids", "Sorry, i've football practice", "Sorry i have a life" !!

Stheno

NZ_2014 wrote: »

People should (if not desperate for the job!) start crossing out the unpaid overtime clauses in contracts and writing in a clause like the above for over time to be agreed in advance and paid...that'll learn them!

Once you go above admin/clerical roles, it's expected imo

mada999 wrote: »

that's madness, why do you work "overtime" if you are not getting paid overtime?!? you have to look at yourself here.... start making excuses, "Sorry, i have an appointment", "Sorry, i've to mind kids", "Sorry, i've football practice", "Sorry i have a life" !!

I do this with my company, I make it clear when I am going to be unavailable, but given that we are not a 9-5 organisation, I also make an effort out of hours.

You can't adopt a 9-5 mentality in this day and age imo

mada999

I will only stay late a few times a year (I work in IT) if something needs to be done or there's a major issue. I will usually not stay later than 6pm and I live about 5 mins from the office. I also from time to time have to do weekend out of hours stuff (comes with the terroritory), but I deffo get paid the overtime and i state this up front... we are moving to a 24/7 shop and tbh, my contract is 9-5 and to work in Dundalk and not in Dublin (although sometimes i need to go to head office for meetings). Today I had a meeting with a client, I clocked in at 9am in Dundalk, drove to Dublin for the meetings, left the office at 3:15 (stated this to my boss, i actually had an appointment at 17:20) and got back to the office at 16:45 to clock out for five. Everyone needs to take a look at their contracts and point out to management what is on it. I can be flexible from time to time and they know and in fairness to them they do not take the piss.

Our company is a financial company, and I see some people staying late to "print off green sheets to get them ready for the next day", these people dont want to go home imo.. the accountants in our place have been staying late due to "central bank deadlines" but I'd bet that they deffo get paid..

op get some back bone and say no.. you can't be sacked for it... tbh they will think more of you in the long run also...

davo10

Look at the top people in every industry, the people in management positions, the entrepreneurs, the ones who get to make decisions and make a difference to a business. They are the ones who work hard, put in the extra effort and stand out from the pack. They are not the ones who have clocked out at 5pm because their contract said they could. Promotions are often based on productivity and your "worth" to the business, it's your right to work the hours contracted, it's the employers right to promote people who are more valuable to them.

Stheno

mada999 wrote: »

op get some back bone and say no.. you can't be sacked for it... tbh they will think more of you in the long run also...

They won't actually, they will see someone who is a jobsworth, not interested in staying to help out and get work done etc, and not interested in the overall success of the company.

And OP could be first in line for redundancy with a referee that answers no when asked the critical question"would you rehire this person"

No Pants

I often find that some of the people working the longest hours are the least productive. I go at my job like a Tazmanian Devil most days because I want to switch it all off at 15:30.

I do work extra hours sometimes, but it's a choice. If I am asked to work extra, I expect to get time in lieu.

davo10

mada999 wrote: »

op get some back bone and say no.. you can't be sacked for it... tbh they will think more of you in the long run also...

You are right, you can't be sacked for it, but you can be if you are not doing your job to a required standard. Also, a colleague who does stay late is more likely to be promoted.

Stheno

No Pants wrote: »

I often find that some of the people working the longest hours are the least productive. I go at my job like a Tazmanian Devil most days because I want to switch it all off at 15:30.

I do work extra hours sometimes, but it's a choice. If I am asked to work extra, I expect to get time in lieu.

That can be true, and their is the sad mantra of not leaving the office before your manager.

however I've had many roles (I work as a consultant) where I am onsite during the day with a client, travelling mid week after hours, and working e.g. on tenders in the evening

So while not unproductive, I've had a massive workload to deal with

Gringo180

davo10 wrote: »

Look at the top people in every industry, the people in management positions, the entrepreneurs, the ones who get to make decisions and make a difference to a business. They are the ones who work hard, put in the extra effort and stand out from the pack. They are not the ones who have clocked out at 5pm because their contract said they could. Promotions are often based on productivity and your "worth" to the business, it's your right to work the hours contracted, it's the employers right to promote people who are more valuable to them.

I am sure the op wouldnt mind staying back the few hours here and there if they were getting paid for it.

Stheno

Gringo180 wrote: »

I am sure the op wouldnt mind staying back the few hours here and there if they were getting paid for it.

Perhaps that is the approach OP should take with their manager?

Refer to that clause in their contract and discuss on that basis?

I.e. that it will be agreed in advance and paid?

FrStone

Stheno wrote: »

They won't actually, they will see someone who is a jobsworth, not interested in staying to help out and get work done etc, and not interested in the overall success of the company.

Who is interested in the overall success of the firm? Once my wages are paid I'm happy.

I'm like the OP. I work the hours I'm paid for and that's it. If you want me to stay late - pay me. The job is a means to an end, it is somewhere I put down 39 hours to ensure I have the lifestyle I want the rest of the week.

I work damn hard during my contracted hours but I won't be doing any extra unless there is an actual emergency (not the type of emergencies that business like to make up every second week). Once I leave at 5.30pm I won't answer phone calls, emails etc.

I used do production work many years ago and in that environment I had the idea that I would only do more than my 39 hours if the overtime rate was Double Time. Time and a half was sometimes offered but on principle I wouldn't work for it. After sometime they just started offering me double time if they badly wanted me working and the rest time and a half.

Gringo180

Stheno wrote: »

Perhaps that is the approach OP should take with their manager?

Refer to that clause in their contract and discuss on that basis?

I.e. that it will be agreed in advance and paid?

I agree but as theyve said already there isnt a chance they would get paid over time. I hate these scenarios in some jobs where people are taking advantage of.

donkey balls

It really depends on how the company operates I have worked on a salary basis (Mgmt) and an hourly basis OT etc,Some days I could start at 0600 and finish at 2100 which is norm within the industries I worked in,Sometimes things might pop up that we might need to stay behind to get the work done other times we could finish early.
Swings and roundabouts as we say would the company be willing to give you the time you worked up off as time in lieu.

davo10

Gringo180 wrote: »

I am sure the op wouldnt mind staying back the few hours here and there if they were getting paid for it.

Won't happen, employer may take the view that employee is staying late solely to take advantage of overtime payment.

Very often this comes down to ambition, those that want to move up the ladder into management and gain the benefits, want to be seen to be doing that bit more than their colleagues/competitors for the promotion. Often when a position opens up, the employer will choose someone who they are sure will get the job done, not someone who clocks off at 5 when the job isn't finished. There are queen bees and worker bees, the ones that clock off before the job is finished are destined to remain worker bees.

Stheno

FrStone wrote: »

Who is interested in the overall success of the firm? Once my wages are paid I'm happy.

I'm like the OP. I work the hours I'm paid for and that's it. If you want me to stay late - pay me. The job is a means to an end, it is somewhere I put down 39 hours to ensure I have the lifestyle I want the rest of the week.

I work damn hard during my contracted hours but I won't be doing any extra unless there is an actual emergency (not the type of emergencies /that business like to make up every second week). Once I leave at 5.30pm I won't answer phone calls, emails etc.

I used do production work many years ago and in that environment I had the idea that I would only do more than my 39 hours if the overtime rate was Double Time. Time and a half was sometimes offered but on principle I wouldn't work for it. After sometime they just started offering me double time if they badly wanted me working and the rest time and a half.

I think it's an industry/seniority thing to be honest, I'm fairly senior in my area and I'd not leave something as it's out of hours, or can wait till morning

I'm also too senior to even mention overtime without being laughed at.

Different perspectives, but if the OP is working in an environment where unpaid overtime is the norm and they refuse to do it, they are disadvantaging themselves in terms of progression

DubVelo

davo10 wrote: »

Also, a colleague who does stay late is more likely to be promoted.

Or look like they're drowning, incompetent, have poor time management.
Poor planning, delegation and management skills if you're the manager who is continually handing out urgent tasks at the tail end of the day.

davo10

FrStone wrote: »

Who is interested in the overall success of the firm? Once my wages are paid I'm happy.

I'm like the OP. I work the hours I'm paid for and that's it. If you want me to stay late - pay me. The job is a means to an end, it is somewhere I put down 39 hours to ensure I have the lifestyle I want the rest of the week.
.

Destined to be a worker bee until retirement.

Stheno

DubVelo wrote: »

Or look like they're drowning, incompetent, have poor time management.
Poor planning, delegation and management skills if you're the manager who is continually handing out urgent tasks at the tail end of the day.

Could be they are underesourced in the OPs case and are relying on the unpaid overtime due to cost constraints particularly as the Op has said overtime is on a moratorium

Or poor management, I'd suspect poor resource planning more.

FrStone

Stheno wrote: »

I think it's an industry/seniority thing to be honest, I'm fairly senior in my area and I'd not leave something as it's out of hours, or can wait till morning

I'm also too senior to even mention overtime without being laughed at.

Different perspectives, but if the OP is working in an environment where unpaid overtime is the norm and they refuse to do it, they are disadvantaging themselves in terms of progression

Well now I would be pretty high up in my field too and working in an organisation where many do put in savage hours. If you ask me alot of the time it is just to be seen to be putting the work in - generally management see beyond that and see who has the technical skills and skills at winning clients etc.

Obviously it was a different kettle of fish when I worked in production during my summers off from college 10 years ago, but it is where I got my mantra from and I will probably bring it with me where ever I go.

I often see it that people get sucked into their job and substantially overestimate their self importance to the firm and end up putting in extra hours.

Gringo180

davo10 wrote: »

Destined to be a worker bee until retirement.

No harm in that once there happy. I dont see why a company wont pay overtime to staff that are working an extra few hours on an already long maybe stressful 39-40 hour week. Theres more to life than breaking your balls for somebody for nothing in the hope of getting a promotion.

davo10

DubVelo wrote: »

Or look like they're drowning, incompetent, have poor time management.
Poor planning, delegation and management skills if you're the manager who is continually handing out urgent tasks at the tail end of the day.

Being handed a task and taking to long to do it is one scenario, being handed multiple tasks that require extra effort is another. Complete the tasks by putting in extra effort makes you an asset, refusing to put in that extra effort makes you a number, assets get promotions, numbers stay stagnant or if there is a choice to be make, redundant.

davo10

Gringo180 wrote: »

No harm in that once there happy. I dont see why a company wont pay overtime to staff that are working an extra few hours on an already long maybe stressful 39-40 hour week. Theres more to life than breaking your balls for somebody for nothing in the hope of getting a promotion.

You are right, it's just that there is a minority who are ambitious and want to be managers or partners or own the business.

FrStone

davo10 wrote: »

Destined to be a worker bee until retirement.

Your getting sucked in, unless you make enough extra that you are earning millions and can retire in your 30s you too will be a worker bee.

It's this sort of delusion that annoys me, people who reckon if you want to get anywhere you have to put in extra hours. Eh no, my skills have ensured promotions.

Stheno

FrStone wrote: »

Well now I would be pretty high up in my field too and working in an organisation where many do put in savage hours. If you ask me alot of the time it is just to be seen to be putting the work in - generally management see beyond that and see who has the technical skills and skills at winning clients etc.

Obviously it was a different kettle of fish when I worked in production during my summers off from college 10 years ago, but it is where I got my mantra from and I will probably bring it with me where ever I go.

I often see it that people get sucked into their job and substantially overestimate their self importance to the firm and end up putting in extra hours.

For me I spend most of my days onsite with clients, but have inhouse responsibilities that mean I spend time in the evenings responding too

I however have boundaries, and stop at a reasonable hour, I have colleagues who send mails up to twelve am and before six am

For some people work is living.

But for some industries, extra commitment is expected and a lack of that is detrimental if you cannot do it.

mada999

Stheno wrote: »

They won't actually, they will see someone who is a jobsworth, not interested in staying to help out and get work done etc, and not interested in the overall success of the company.

Hold on a sec, I will prob guess that the op is not making serious dough, why should they stay there and work for nothing, they are not getting the benefit? They work in the financial industry, not a busy start up where they are trying to get a business off the ground and being paid in shares and are making business direction decisions etc.

There's helping out and there's helping out, why should they stay late all the time and get paid for nothing, unless they are licking árse and belittling themselves... as someone pointed out maybe new people should be hired as there's obviously a capacity issue here

davo10

FrStone wrote: »

Your getting sucked in, unless you make enough extra that you are earning millions and can retire in your 30s you too will be a worker bee.

It's this sort of delusion that annoys me, people who reckon if you want to get anywhere you have to put in extra hours. Eh no, my skills have ensured promotions.

You are not at management level though.

bee06

DubVelo wrote: »

Or look like they're drowning, incompetent, have poor time management.
Poor planning, delegation and management skills if you're the manager who is continually handing out urgent tasks at the tail end of the day.

I agree, I work my ass off every day and have never had any complaints about the delivery of my work and I leave at my finish time 95% of the time. A few years ago while working late the CEO at the time made comments about if I wanted to progress this is something I'd have to get used to. I smiled and nodded and ignored him and continued to leave on time unless there was anything urgent to be done because I knew that regardless of how many hours I worked I'd get no thanks for it in the end. He worked all the hours he could, basically ignored his family and still got made redundant a few months later.

Stheno

mada999 wrote: »

Hold on a sec, I will prob guess that the op is not making serious dough, why should they stay there and work for nothing, they are not getting the benefit? They work in the financial industry, not a busy start up where they are trying to get a business off the ground and being paid in shares and are making business direction decisions etc.

There's helping out and there's helping out, why should they stay late all the time and get paid for nothing, unless they are licking árse and belittling themselves... as someone pointed out maybe new people should be hired as there's obviously a capacity issue here

Financial services is notorious for this, OP perhaps didn't research enough?

mada999

Stheno wrote: »

Or poor management, I'd suspect poor resource planning more.

if that's the case it's not the op's problem..

davo10

mada999 wrote: »

Hold on a sec, I will prob guess that the op is not making serious dough, why should they stay there and work for nothing, they are not getting the benefit? e

Probably, and what are the chances of OP getting promoted and making "serious dough". I'm not saying the OP should stay, that's a personal choice, but ambition and progress often requires that you do more than others.

Caliden

davo10 wrote: »

Destined to be a worker bee until retirement.

It's not the 1920's anymore. There is zero chance of a 'worker bee' becoming CEO or MD anymore.
You can get high up the food chain but unless you've previous experience at managing your own company, it's not going to happen.

People are going around with Masters and PhD's now and are still 'worker bees'.

50 years ago they would be upper upper management.

drumswan

davo10 wrote: »

You are not at management level though.

Management is for those who dont have salable skills. There are engineers in my IT company earning six figures who swan in at 10 and head home at 4pm. No manager is billable at 2k a day.

Stheno

mada999 wrote: »

if that's the case it's not the op's problem..

It is, if there is a culture of working late that is accepted in the organisation

Tbh, it sounds like the company and Op are not a good fit, I'd recommend a move?

FrStone

davo10 wrote: »

You are not at management level though.

I'm at Senior Management level.

I did tell a story about working in production 10 years ago, maybe that's why you got confused?

davo10

Caliden wrote: »

It's not the 1920's anymore. There is zero chance of a 'worker bee' becoming CEO or MD anymore.
You can get high up the food chain but unless you've previous experience at managing your own company, it's not going to happen.

People are going around with Masters and PhD's now and are still 'worker bees'.

50 years ago they would be upper upper management.

Probably true, but how do CEOs and MDs get where they are, by downing tools at 5pm?

ezopsae

Amusing to see some suggest that it's a necessity if you want to get anywhere. I saw misguided people putting in hours of overtime for years at my company. They have never got recognition for it. Meanwhile top management breeze around the place without a care in the world and work regular hours while awarding themselves huge bonuses off the backs of the fools working for free.

Gringo180

davo10 wrote: »

Probably true, but how do CEOs and MDs get where they are

By having the right connections, its not what you know now its who you know.