Washing machine - who is responsible, landlord or tenant?

cathleencp

We rent a house to very good tenants for past 2.5 years (we have not increased rent). They say we are responsible for repairs to washing machine - my understanding is that the tenant is responsible for the day-to-day maintenance. We have repaired electrical items a few times before but I think it should be their problem now - can anyone advise?

bigneacy

cathleencp wrote: »

We rent a house to very good tenants for past 2.5 years (we have not increased rent). They say we are responsible for repairs to washing machine - my understanding is that the tenant is responsible for the day-to-day maintenance. We have repaired electrical items a few times before but I think it should be their problem now - can anyone advise?

A broken down washing machine is not a day to day repair. It's a fixture of the house that was in place when the contracts were signed.

You say yourself that they are good tenants so don't cut off your nose to spite your face.

A washing machine repair isn't going to break the bank.

The_Morrigan

If you provided the appliances then you are responsible for the upkeep.

whippet

cathleencp wrote: »

but I think it should be their problem now

it is not about what you think .. it is what you are responsible for, as per your legal obligations as a landlord. After two and half years in the game you should really know what your obligations are.

I am a landlord too, don't want to be one, but one thing I know is that a good tenant is someone you take care of - you don't have to supple a top of the range one, just a simple functional appliance.

Gandhi

If the tenants broke it from abuse, they should fix it.

If it needs routine maintenance or is worn out, the landlord should fix it. If they originally agreed to rent a house with a functioning washing machine, then the landlord has a responsibility to provide that.

odds_on

The Housing (Standards for Rented Houses) Regulations 2008 and amended 2009
(2) Subject to sub-article (1), there shall be provided, within the habitable area of the house, for the exclusive use of the house:
(g) Washing machine, or access to a communal washing machine facility within the curtilage of the building,
(h) Where the house does not contain a garden or yard for the exclusive use of that house, a dryer (vented or recirculation type) or access to a communal dryer facility.
(3) All facilities under sub-article (2) shall be maintained in good working order and good repair.
(4) Responsibility for maintenance of facilities under sub-article (2) shall rest with the landlord.

However, as Ghandi says, if the tenants broke the machine due to miss-use then they are liable for repair costs.

Ken.

Cost of new machine Vs finding a new tenant(advertising,months without tenant). Weight it up and see which is cheaper.

Drexel

Its kinda shocking OP that you are a landlord and you dont know this

ted1

If the damage is due to neglect or misuse the tenant is liable. If its standard wear and tear replace it and write it off your taxes for the next 8 years.

Adverts or donedeal can be useful places to get replacment white goods for rental properties.

Marcusm

The_Morrigan wrote: »

If you provided the appliances then you are responsible for the upkeep.

And if they didn't provide a washing machine or laundry facility they're in breach of regs.

The_Morrigan

Marcusm wrote: »

And if they didn't provide a washing machine or laundry facility they're in breach of regs.

Yes I am aware of that, but some tenants have arranged to replace appliances if they are long term tenants and they have a preference above the minimum standards.

Fkall

It is the responsibility of the Landlord.

However as you haven't raised the rent in a few years the cost is easily recovered.

Santa Cruz

The_Morrigan wrote: »

Yes I am aware of that, but some tenants have arranged to replace appliances if they are long term tenants and they have a preference above the minimum standards.

It is the landlords responsibility to replace washing machines unless broken by misuse. If tenants go and buy a more upmarket model with your consent then the landlord is again responsible. If they do it on their own without consulting you then it is no longer your responsibility

murphaph

ted1 wrote: »

If the damage is due to neglect or misuse the tenant is liable. If its standard wear and tear replace it and write it off your taxes for the next 8 years.

If it's just making good what was there before (similar machine, not some super fancy replacement for a basic one), then it can be considered a simple repair and written off in one go.

murphaph

Fkall wrote: »

It is the responsibility of the Landlord.

However as you haven't raised the rent in a few years the cost is easily recovered.

Yep, time for the rent to be adjusted for these tenants to the current market rate. Some people don't know a sweet deal when it hits them in the face. Replace the machine and send a notice of rent increase to actual market rates.

seb65

murphaph wrote: »

Yep, time for the rent to be adjusted for these tenants to the current market rate. Some people don't know a sweet deal when it hits them in the face. Replace the machine and send a notice of rent increase to actual market rates.

That will do wonders for the landlord/tenant relationship. As a very good tenant myself, I'd match your notice with a my own notice of intent to vacate.

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

murphaph wrote: »

Yep, time for the rent to be adjusted for these tenants to the current market rate. Some people don't know a sweet deal when it hits them in the face. Replace the machine and send a notice of rent increase to actual market rates.

I'd hate to see you try talk a suicidal man off a bridge, or try your hand at hostage negotiation.

Santa Cruz

seb65 wrote: »

That will do wonders for the landlord/tenant relationship. As a very good tenant myself, I'd match your notice with a my own notice of intent to vacate.

When rents were dropping tenants were quick enough to start demanding a decrease. Now it's the other way round they are complaining. Welcome to the free market. Being a landlord is just like any other business and the law of supply and demand applies.

Caliden

seb65 wrote: »

That will do wonders for the landlord/tenant relationship. As a very good tenant myself, I'd match your notice with a my own notice of intent to vacate.

Chances are the rental price is an absolute steal in the current rental climate so shouldn't be hard to find new tenants.

murphaph

seb65 wrote: »

That will do wonders for the landlord/tenant relationship. As a very good tenant myself, I'd match your notice with a my own notice of intent to vacate.

So you'd leave a property that was priced at current market rate to move to what? Moving house is no fun. You have to organise not only all your crap to be transported from A to B, you also have to transfer utilities etc. It's easy to say on a forum "I'd leave if my landlord dared charge me the going rate (which in itself sounds silly)" but in reality you wouldn't go anywhere.

Eldarion

A bit amazed myself at how the OP couldn't think it was the LL's responsibility. That being said the tenant should really know a good deal when they have it. If they're paying 200 or 300 under the market rate per month they really should not have been rocking the boat and just gotten it fixed/replaced themselves. They would have recouped the cost in less than 2 months and been on their way enjoying their discount. It's going to cost them a whole lot more now if the rates are brought up.

I would definitely bring the rent up to market rate now.

percy212

Cop on OP. You fix or replace the machine. Some shower of sweaty little cute hoors on this thread. The tenant asks for a normal service from the landlord and is threatened with a rent increase. The sooner the banks repossess all the underwater btls the better. Cant wait for rent control.

murphaph

percy212 wrote: »

Cop on OP. You fix or replace the machine. Some shower of sweaty little cute hoors on this thread. The tenant asks for a normal service from the landlord and is threatened with a rent increase. The sooner the banks repossess all the underwater btls the better. Cant wait for rent control.

Rent control needs things like postcodes, so you may wait for them first.

The OP was giving his tenants a great deal by the sounds of it, possibly saving them a couple of grand a year from their net salaries. Instead of getting the machine fixed themselves, they are flagging themselves to their landlord. Common sense says they should have kept a low profile and fixed it themselves, but they didn't.

The tenant is asking for a normal service, but it's also normal to pay the market rate in rent, something they were happy not to do presumably. Now everything can become normal. Landlord fixes machine. Tenants pay market rent.

Edit: Banks are going to be in no hurry to repossess BTLs if they show signs of being able to pay their mortgages. Increasing rents makes BTL repossession less likely.

percy212

I hope the op's tenants read boards so they can stop paying rent. Hopefully the op will soon be stuck with some new whining appliance breaking high maintenance market rate tenants who call every weekend with a problem and always remind the op that they are paying market rate.

The_Morrigan

percy212 wrote: »

I hope the op's tenants read boards so they can stop paying rent. Hopefully the op will soon be stuck with some new whining appliance breaking high maintenance market rate tenants who call every weekend with a problem and always remind the op that they are paying market rate.

Percy if you can't post in a constructive manner I would urge you to refrain from posting here. Posts like this are not helpful and are flamming in nature, which is against the charter.

/Mod

Electric Sheep

murphaph wrote: »

Rent control needs things like postcodes, so you may wait for them first.

The OP was giving his tenants a great deal by the sounds of it, possibly saving them a couple of grand a year from their net salaries. Instead of getting the machine fixed themselves, they are flagging themselves to their landlord. Common sense says they should have kept a low profile and fixed it themselves, but they didn't.

The tenant is asking for a normal service, but it's also normal to pay the market rate in rent, something they were happy not to do presumably. Now everything can become normal. Landlord fixes machine. Tenants pay market rent.

Edit: Banks are going to be in no hurry to repossess BTLs if they show signs of being able to pay their mortgages. Increasing rents makes BTL repossession less likely.

I think a good tenant in the hand is worth more than an unknown future tenant who may or may not pay the rent on time in full and keep the house in decent order.

But then, an amateur landlord who does not even know his legal responsibilities is not likely to see beyond the money in his hand right now.

am i bovvered

Electric Sheep wrote: »

I think a good tenant in the hand is worth more than an unknown future tenant who may or may not pay the rent on time in full and keep the house in decent order.

But then, an amateur landlord who does not even know his legal responsibilities is not likely to see beyond the money in his hand right now.

Totally agree, and I am a landlord.

Tar.Aldarion

murphaph wrote: »

So you'd leave a property that was priced at current market rate to move to what? Moving house is no fun. You have to organise not only all your crap to be transported from A to B, you also have to transfer utilities etc. It's easy to say on a forum "I'd leave if my landlord dared charge me the going rate (which in itself sounds silly)" but in reality you wouldn't go anywhere.

They'd probably have no problem if the two were not related, but now it would be ok I'll fix it and im putting your rent up. It's the situation at hand that would make people leave, not the rent going up to market rate.

murphaph

Electric Sheep wrote: »

I think a good tenant in the hand is worth more than an unknown future tenant who may or may not pay the rent on time in full and keep the house in decent order.

But then, an amateur landlord who does not even know his legal responsibilities is not likely to see beyond the money in his hand right now.

Sad that in Ireland it seems "good tenant == a tenant who just pays their rent and doesn't live in their own filth". That is the bare minimum a tenant needs to do.

You do have a point however. A tenant that has proven themselves does have a certain worth above an unknown quantity BUT at a certain point the discount offered to such a tenant needs to be looked at-it can't just continue to grow indefinitely as the market rises and their rent remains static. Make no mistake, a good landlord will still be asked for rent reductions in bad times. That point has now come as the tenants have triggered it by requesting this repair.

Honestly if I was in their position I would have fixed it myself and kept a low profile.

murphaph

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

They'd probably have no problem if the two were not related, but now it would be ok I'll fix it and im putting your rent up. It's the situation at hand that would make people leave, not the rent going up to market rate.

LL can of course leave it for a month or two. Doesn't have to put it up right away and can put it up but maintain it marginally below market rate to "trap" the tenants.

Electric Sheep

murphaph wrote: »

Sad that in Ireland it seems "good tenant == a tenant who just pays their rent and doesn't live in their own filth". That is the bare minimum a tenant needs to do.

You do have a point however. A tenant that has proven themselves does have a certain worth above an unknown quantity BUT at a certain point the discount offered to such a tenant needs to be looked at-it can't just continue to grow indefinitely as the market rises and their rent remains static. Make no mistake, a good landlord will still be asked for rent reductions in bad times. That point has now come as the tenants have triggered it by requesting this repair.

Honestly if I was in their position I would have fixed it myself and kept a low profile.

What other attributes would you expect from a good tenant? I am curious.

Bart Mars

Tennants use it so their responsibility 100%

maringo

Bart Mars wrote: »

Tennants use it so their responsibility 100%

Landlord's responsibility to maintain the item he is renting.

Bart Mars

maringo wrote: »

Landlord's responsibility to maintain the item he is renting.

He rents the apartment. Not the washing machine.

K.Flyer

Bart Mars wrote: »

Tennants use it so their responsibility 100%

odds_on wrote: »

The Housing (Standards for Rented Houses) Regulations 2008 and amended 2009
(2) Subject to sub-article (1), there shall be provided, within the habitable area of the house, for the exclusive use of the house:
(g) Washing machine, or access to a communal washing machine facility within the curtilage of the building,
(h) Where the house does not contain a garden or yard for the exclusive use of that house, a dryer (vented or recirculation type) or access to a communal dryer facility.
(3) All facilities under sub-article (2) shall be maintained in good working order and good repair.
(4) Responsibility for maintenance of facilities under sub-article (2) shall rest with the landlord.

What part of Odds On's post did you miss?

K.Flyer

The first thing is... How old is the washing machine, was it brand new when they moved in or a few years old?
Secondly, if your tenants are looking after the property and keeping it in very good order, they are the ones you need to keep sweet.
It might be a L.L. market at the moment and rates are on the increase, but believe me when I tell you, increased rent does not get you improved tenants.
I am in and out of rented properties almost every day of the week and have seen 2k / mth properties treated like dirt.
If you do jack up the rent and they stay, they will most likely have you out for the most minor of things because they will feel they are justified in calling you because of the rental increase.

Bart Mars

K.Flyer wrote: »

What part of Odds On's post did you miss?

A washing machine doesn't not constitute "facilities". That should be immediately obvious to you ?

The_Morrigan

Bart Mars wrote: »

A washing machine doesn't not constitute "facilities". That should be immediately obvious to you ?

It does, now watch your tone.
/Mod

hardCopy

Bart Mars wrote: »

A washing machine doesn't not constitute "facilities". That should be immediately obvious to you ?

Even when the law specifically states that the facilities must include a washing machine?

Have you read any of this thread?

Bart Mars

hardCopy wrote: »

Even when the law specifically states that the facilities must include a washing machine?

Have you read any of this thread?

If it is an integrated washing machine then possibly you have a point. A standing alone washing machine shouldn't be considered as " facilities"

hardCopy

Bart Mars wrote: »

If it is an integrated washing machine then possibly you have a point. A standing alone washing machine shouldn't be considered as " facilities"

It's the first item in the list of facilities under section 2 paragraph G.

K.Flyer

Bart Mars wrote: »

If it is an integrated washing machine then possibly you have a point. A standing alone washing machine shouldn't be considered as " facilities"

But it is considered a facility and it is a requirement of a landlord to provide a working one for use by his / her tenant.

maringo

The OP asked what should he do. If it was me I'd fix the washing machine and hold onto the decent tenants. Plenty of bad tenants out there as have friends who have had their property left in a very poor state due to careless and filthy tenants. Plenty of good tenants out there too but once you have a bad one you are stuck with them and the hassle of getting them out.

cerastes

Id a discussion similar to this but which I think is related to the thread.
It was about unfurnished properties and what items might still be supplied.

If and previously when I rented, I would prefer not to use certain items left in the rented property.
While there isnt much choice, Id have preferred to have used some items I owned (at least a mattress). Microwaves, kettles and toasters are all small items and it doesnt necessarily suit either landlords or tenants to have to use items provided, or teapots for that matter.

It comes up a bit how other countries do things, so we should follow suit,

How do the regulations fare in relation to unfurnished properties?
Can a landlord agree with a tenant if they have their own stuff to use it? or do they have to tell them no, store it??

Unfurnished and regulations?

kravmaga

cathleencp wrote: »

We rent a house to very good tenants for past 2.5 years (we have not increased rent). They say we are responsible for repairs to washing machine - my understanding is that the tenant is responsible for the day-to-day maintenance. We have repaired electrical items a few times before but I think it should be their problem now - can anyone advise?

If you supplied the washing machine in the first instance, I would say you are liable for repairs/maintenance to it.

So its a landlord responsibility.

Electric Sheep

hardCopy wrote: »

It's the first item in the list of facilities under section 2 paragraph G.

I sincerely hope Bart is not a landlord. There should be a requirement for landlords to be able to understand the basic housing standard regulations.

iguana

murphaph wrote: »

Yep, time for the rent to be adjusted for these tenants to the current market rate. Some people don't know a sweet deal when it hits them in the face. Replace the machine and send a notice of rent increase to actual market rates.

Is the OP's property based in the the small percentage of the country where rents are rising? I didn't see her mention that anywhere in her post? In the majority of the country rents are stagnant and even falling in places. Market rate could easily be quite a bit less than the current rent.

murphaph

iguana wrote: »

Is the OP's property based in the the small percentage of the country where rents are rising? I didn't see her mention that anywhere in her post? In the majority of the country rents are stagnant and even falling in places. Market rate could easily be quite a bit less than the current rent.

Just taking OP at face value. It's the OP that claims the rent is a good deal below market rate.

sligoface

Why are people talking about a broken washing machine and the amount of rent paid in the same sentence? They're not related. Saying that a tenant who isn't paying top dollar in rent needs to 'keep a low profile' by not requesting a necessary item be fixed is ridiculous. If they pay on time and maintain the place than they are keeping a low profile IMO. Fix the stupid machine. They are basically made to break every few years now as soon as the warranty runs out, that keeps the appliance companies in business, so this is a pretty normal repair.

Only on the internet would people say you should or could raise the rent every time an item needs to be repaired or fixed. You can't. Isn't the main advantage of renting is that repairs and maintenance are included in rent paid? Conversely the advantage to owning is that it belongs to you, even if you rent it out and have someone else pay the mortgage on the place, it is your property.

Now we have landlords who want tenants to pay their mortgage AND pay for repairs and maintenance?! Boy, that's a sweet deal. If that was the way it worked, no one would rent at all.

mikemac1

The best landlord I ever had and he's still my current one owns over 20 properties. Rare I would have to contact him but when I do everything is sorted easily

It's the amateur landlords like the OP who cause tenants grief

No issue with asking questions but after two years being a landlord you should already know the answer.

dharma200

This thread is perhaps indicative that landlords should have to do a short test or something before being allowed to have tenants... What kind of mentality states that if a washing machine breaks the rent should be put up.... It is a horrible precarious place to be renting in Ireland, even with part four etc because of attitudes like this... And landlords refusing to learn even the most basic procedures and legislation.
OP fix the washing machine. The fact thisisnt immediately apparent to you a snot only common sense but the decent thing to do, and as per legislation, really shows you that you must get a print out of all your obligations as a landlord.... And don't, as others here have suggested, charge your tenant for your trouble of finding out the minimum standards in the business you are in.