B Teams being considered by the FA

mike65

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/27289819

A new competition for Premier League and Championship clubs to field B teams will be considered by the Football Association on Wednesday.

It is being proposed that the teams could play in a league sandwiched between League Two and the Conference.

Another option is to merge League Two and the Conference with the B teams to form two regional leagues.

The proposals are part of FA chairman Greg Dyke's commission on the future of the national team.

It is understood that the Premier League and Football League clubs are broadly in favour of the B team concept, which would be predominantly made up of homegrown players, but have reservations about how it might fit into the pyramid and the knock-on effects to other leagues and competitions.

One question is whether current League Two clubs would be relegated into the Conference or the new B team league if they went down. The other difficult issue is how far could B teams be promoted?

Always a tricky issue this one, I am a fan of B teams but NOT in their own division, the problem is that its very hard to do it any other way as its just not possible (or correct) to boot out existing sides.

I think on balance the best approach is to have a proper U21 league and not the current 21 match dogs dinner and send players out on loan.

LuckyLloyd

I'd be in favour. Create an additional League Three, dump the B teams all into the now League Two and operate normal promotion / relegation rules thereafter.

This is the kind of thing you just do despite a myriad of opposition arguments and everyone will look back in ten year's time and realise it was a brilliant idea. Much like the Premiership (there were heated arguments against it at the time).

Lennonist

Bad idea. Instead set up a well run and regulated loan system where second string players get experience at lower level and the clubs at lower levels benefit from the influx of more loan players from top clubs. Dumping B teams in to play against clubs at lower levels will destroy the integrity of the game at that level. Clubs are still capable of rising through the leagues to reach the top. How far up the leagues could a B team go, would they be prevented from getting to the top division? Horrible idea actually.

Chucky the tree

Lennonist wrote: »

Bad idea. Instead set up a well run and regulated loan system where second string players get experience at lower level and the clubs at lower levels benefit from the influx of more loan players from top clubs. Dumping B teams in to play against clubs at lower levels will destroy the integrity of the game at that level. Clubs are still capable of rising through the leagues to reach the top. How far up the leagues could a B team go, would they be prevented from getting to the top division? Horrible idea actually.

How?

Agueroooo

Yep let the money bag clubs dump all their hoarded starlets into the one team whilst also keeping the lower level clubs where they belong.:rolleyes:

bad idea for the game imo

Cookiemunster

Lennonist wrote: »

Bad idea. Instead set up a well run and regulated loan system where second string players get experience at lower level and the clubs at lower levels benefit from the influx of more loan players from top clubs. Dumping B teams in to play against clubs at lower levels will destroy the integrity of the game at that level. Clubs are still capable of rising through the leagues to reach the top. How far up the leagues could a B team go, would they be prevented from getting to the top division? Horrible idea actually.

It works in other countries. In Spain they're not allowed to be promoted into the division that the first team is in and if the first team gets relegated to the division the B team is in then the B team is automatically relegated as well. Similar system in Germany although I think they can only reach the third division there.

EuropeanSon

Lennonist wrote: »

Bad idea. Instead set up a well run and regulated loan system where second string players get experience at lower level and the clubs at lower levels benefit from the influx of more loan players from top clubs. Dumping B teams in to play against clubs at lower levels will destroy the integrity of the game at that level. Clubs are still capable of rising through the leagues to reach the top. How far up the leagues could a B team go, would they be prevented from getting to the top division? Horrible idea actually.

It's a great idea, which works very well in many European countries.

You don't want to send players to other clubs where they won't necessarily be playing in a system you want them to be playing, you want to have control over their development, while still having them play good competitive matches.

Mickeroo

Think it's a great idea myself, it will be like having Carling Cup matches to watch all season long.

Pepe LeFrits

Probably a good thing for the English national team and entertainment's sake, and a bad thing for small clubs.

I'd rather see a ban on loaning out U23 players. Young players would be reluctant to move at a young age to the big teams if they knew they'd sit in the reserves for years rather than spend 3 seasons on loan, and the smaller clubs would get more wedge if their prospects stayed until age 21/22 rather than 16.

Lennonist

Cookiemunster wrote: »

It works in other countries. In Spain they're not allowed to be promoted into the division that the first team is in and if the first team gets relegated to the division the B team is in then the B team is automatically relegated as well. Similar system in Germany although I think they can only reach the third division there.

Just because other countries do it doesn't mean they have to copy them. "It works in other countries" for whose benefit, for the big clubs, not necessarily for the game as a whole or for the players. You'd have teams playing in leagues that can't get promoted? Doesn't sound good.

Lennonist

EuropeanSon wrote: »

It's a great idea, which works very well in many European countries.

You don't want to send players to other clubs where they won't necessarily be playing in a system you want them to be playing, you want to have control over their development, while still having them play good competitive matches.

I see what you're saying. More control and power for the existing bigger clubs.

Great idea for the big clubs and reduce further the capacity of clubs in smaller leagues to progress and develop.

GLaDOS

Not a fan of it myself. Feel it dilutes the importance of lower leagues if it's simply used as a reserve league for the big teams.

Agueroooo

there are teams in the PL and Championship on the verge of dropping out of the league not so long ago.

these clubs, and their fans lived the dream and got back to were they are today by beating teams in front them, climbing back up the leagues

throwing a bunch of teams from the rich boys into this mix is not exactly fair now imo.

why not just parachute Vittesse Arnhem into the 2nd division

munchkin_utd

Cookiemunster wrote: »

It works in other countries. In Spain they're not allowed to be promoted into the division that the first team is in and if the first team gets relegated to the division the B team is in then the B team is automatically relegated as well. Similar system in Germany although I think they can only reach the third division there.

nah,
you wouldnt want to be copying Spain or Germany.
Nothing to learn there about development.
ahem

Pro. F

Having B teams mixing into normal leagues would be harmful for the normal clubs who are in those leagues now. Therefore it is an awful idea. There is no complication about how this would work. It's not a difficult concept to enact, it's just a terrible idea.

bucketybuck

Horrible idea. The last thing football needs is to further encourage the sugar daddy clubs to hoard talent, there are enough quality young players wasting season after season playing in reserves or going out on loan as it is.

Lukker-

bucketybuck wrote: »

Horrible idea. The last thing football needs is to further encourage the sugar daddy clubs to hoard talent, there are enough quality young players wasting season after season playing in reserves or going out on loan as it is.

And this would negate the need for loans, it's a great idea tbh. It works extremely well in Spain.

It's a far more holistic approach for clubs.

Will I Amnt

It only really benefits a handful of wealthy clubs and is detrimental to many, many more.
I like the idea of it but it just couldn't be put into practice.

Agueroooo

Lukker- wrote: »

And this would negate the need for loans, it's a great idea tbh. It works extremely well in Spain.

It's a far more holistic approach for clubs.

You cannot compare it to Spain im afraid.

The idea has some merits but the hoarding of talent (especially by some PL clubs) has ruined it before its even begun.

just imagine Chelsea B team pulling up in their Lambos and Porsches against poor oul Grimsby lads in their Ford Escorts

bucketybuck

Lukker- wrote: »

And this would negate the need for loans, it's a great idea tbh. It works extremely well in Spain.

It's a far more holistic approach for clubs.

Nope, its a terrible idea. The clubs might see it as a lovely holistic idea, but in the bigger picture it is terrible for football as a whole.

Whats best for football is to encourage the spread of talented footballers among a wider variety of clubs, this encourages competition and the development of more top quality players.

Instead what this plan does is further encourages the big clubs to just buy as many of the most promising youngsters as possible and keep them all contracted to themselves. Previously this was limited to some extent by the lack of meaningful gametime, but ideas like this just increase the gametime available for the big clubs reserve players.

Dickerty

Would you get improved attendance and potential tv viewing if some of the top teams were playing some smaller teams at this level? Most of the big teams that have their own channels show all their underage games. So instead of watching LFC U21 v their Fulham conterparts, I would watch them playing Lincoln or Chesterfield? The competition would be far more real, I presume they would be open for promotion?

keeponhurling

Would "A" players be allowed to play for the "B" side of they lost their place in the A or were coming back from injury?

I know in GAA if you play for the senior team you cannot play for a lower team that year.

jaykay74

The lower leagues in a lot of European countries are poorly attended. I think interest in the English lower leagues would be diluted if it was rebranded as a b league for the bigger PL teams. It would be great for fans of Utd, Liverpool, Arsenal etc who will have a second team to support but for fans of lower league teams it smacks of playing in a reserve league. Seems very top level teams centric.

Dozen Wicked Words

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I'd be in favour. Create an additional League Three, dump the B teams all into the now League Two and operate normal promotion / relegation rules thereafter.
.

So where do you put the displaced League 2 teams after you have "dumped" the B teams? Presumably you want to relegate the whole division?

How would traditional league clubs, for example in League 2, where the wage for a player is barely above the UK industrial average, be expected to compete on and off the pitch with 2nd 3rd or 4th teams of clubs worth billions, with young players, internationals in some cases on 10 or 15 grand a week.

Normal promotion/relegation? Nonsense to think it will be normal, it will be a yearly carve up between the B teams.

Lots of football fans go on about their "history", well fans of 60 or 70 odd clubs with getting on for 100 years of history say f*ck this idea.

gnfnrhead

I think it could work.

For arguments sake, lets say just the 20 in the Premier League do it. They form an alternative League Two. At the end of the season the top 2 or 4 from the current League Two and the alternative League Two go into a play off scenario for promotion. Likewise for relegation to the Conference.

Obviously the B team would never be able to be in the same league as the A team.

People are too reluctant to consider change. Other countries manage it just fine. I believe there was a lot of objections about the Premier League being formed and that hasnt worked out too badly.

COYVB

You can't really implement this without having some lower league teams (rightfully) getting angry about it

The only potential way around that would be to create a standalone B league, but the winners go into a playoff to get into the conference against the playoff winner of the league below the conference (not sure how they set it up these days). Obviously you'd have whoever inevitably lost to them in the playoff arguing about it, but it's not really the massive disaster it would be being prevented from making the transition from, say, the conference to the league by a B team.

Yeah, it's kicking a puppy rather than a small dog, but at least then the B teams in question would have to work their way into the league and get there on merit. They wouldn't be displacing a league side just on someone's say so, they'd be doing it because they got promoted from the conference.

Caveat could perhaps be a big money entry fee from the parent club that's spread equally among the other clubs in the league they're "promoted" into?

hefferboi

keeponhurling wrote: »

Would "A" players be allowed to play for the "B" side of they lost their place in the A or were coming back from injury?

I know in GAA if you play for the senior team you cannot play for a lower team that year.

In Junior soccer I think if you play 5 games for the A team then you can't play for the B's.

greendom

Lower league football will be destroyed by this idea. For the sake of the hundreds of clubs from towns all around the UK that comprise league and non-league football really hope this isn't implemented. It will destroy the football pyramid.

gnfnrhead

greendom wrote: »

Lower league football will be destroyed by this idea. For the sake of the hundreds of clubs from towns all around the UK that comprise league and non-league football really hope this isn't implemented. It will destroy the football pyramid.

This has been said a few times now but lacking one vital bit. How exactly it would be destroyed.

Assuming all the teams don't just get bumped down a division, what is the negative? In a lot of cases, it would likely see big increases in attendance which means more income for the lower league clubs.

gnfnrhead

gnfnrhead wrote: »

This has been said a few times now but lacking one vital bit. How exactly it would be destroyed.

Assuming all the teams don't just get bumped down a division, what is the negative? In a lot of cases, it would likely see big increases in attendance which means more income for the lower league clubs.

If they stay in the league pyramid then that'll be 20 new teams into League 1 and league 2. That's a lot of teams that'll then be displaced into League 2 and out of the football league altogether. As others have mentioned, English football is different to most European football as the professional leagues are much better attended than elsewhere.

brevity

I like the idea in once sense because it allows for proper improvement of players rather than allowing them to stagnate in reserves or U21.

It would have to be properly managed though. I don't think it would be right to have the B team full of first team players that cannot get their game. The B team should be comprised of a mixture of reserves and U21's.

gnfnrhead

Deleted User wrote: »

If they stay in the league pyramid then that'll be 20 new teams into League 1 and league 2. That's a lot of teams that'll then be displaced into League 2 and out of the football league altogether. As others have mentioned, English football is different to most European football as the professional leagues are much better attended than elsewhere.

Why would they take someone else's place? Have two leagues at the same level. One for the current league and one for the B-Sides. After that promotion and relegation would work the exact same as it is now. Everybody would still have the same chance they currently have but with a potentially huge name on the fixture list.

The only way anyone would be displaced would be if they got relegated, which is what currently happens anyway.

gnfnrhead

gnfnrhead wrote: »

Why would they take someone else's place? Have two leagues at the same level. One for the current league and one for the B-Sides. After that promotion and relegation would work the exact same as it is now. Everybody would still have the same chance they currently have but with a potentially huge name on the fixture list.

The only way anyone would be displaced would be if they got relegated, which is what currently happens anyway.

How does that work exactly? Two separate leagues that play against each other?

brevity

brevity wrote: »

I like the idea in once sense because it allows for proper improvement of players rather than allowing them to stagnate in reserves or U21.

It would have to be properly managed though. I don't think it would be right to have the B team full of first team players that cannot get their game. The B team should be comprised of a mixture of reserves and U21's.

Bit like the current reserves league?

brevity

Deleted User wrote: »

Bit like the current reserves league?

I guess but playing against proper teams rather than teams full of other youth players.

bucketybuck

gnfnrhead wrote: »

This has been said a few times now but lacking one vital bit. How exactly it would be destroyed.

One incredibly obvious facet is the path of young players to the premier league changing.

It used to be that young players started out at small clubs, who would develop these players before selling them up the ladder for compensation, compensation that allowed many small clubs to continue existing and continue developing more players.

Now you will have all the talented young players immediately signing for a small number of big clubs. They will get their playing time in B teams before returning to their parent club without any compensation filtering down to the smaller clubs. The smaller clubs will struggle to exist and so far less players will be developed, the negative effects of which will be seen long term.

brevity

brevity wrote: »

I guess but playing against proper teams rather than teams full of other youth players.

That just leads to more concentration of talent among a smaller number of clubs. Again, fine in most of Europe, not so much in England with 4 professional divisions.

Pro. F

COYVB wrote: »

You can't really implement this without having some lower league teams (rightfully) getting angry about it

The only potential way around that would be to create a standalone B league, but the winners go into a playoff to get into the conference against the playoff winner of the league below the conference (not sure how they set it up these days). Obviously you'd have whoever inevitably lost to them in the playoff arguing about it, but it's not really the massive disaster it would be being prevented from making the transition from, say, the conference to the league by a B team.

Yeah, it's kicking a puppy rather than a small dog, but at least then the B teams in question would have to work their way into the league and get there on merit. They wouldn't be displacing a league side just on someone's say so, they'd be doing it because they got promoted from the conference.

Caveat could perhaps be a big money entry fee from the parent club that's spread equally among the other clubs in the league they're "promoted" into?

But they would still be displacing a league team. Eventually all the B teams would get themselves promoted in and displace that number of league teams. The main problem is that league teams would be getting displaced, not that they would be getting displaced arbitrarily.

Pro. F

It's so easy to see the flaw in the B team system. Just answer one question: Do you want to see fewer professional teams?

greendom

Why should the football league and the entire pyramid drop its pants to suit the Premier League teams. I can't see the wider footballing community benefitting from this at all and that's why it won't happen.

Guy:Incognito

How does the system work in other countries ? Obviously the 2 teams can't be in the same division but can the pass each other (one gets relegated and the other promoted) and end up with a situation of say barce getting relegated to and the b team being in la liga? Are barce then stuck where they are till the b team get relegated ?:-)

kksaints

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

How does the system work in other countries ? Obviously the 2 teams can't be in the same division but can the pass each other (one gets relegated and the other promoted) and end up with a situation of say barce getting relegated to and the b team being in la liga? Are barce then stuck where they are till the b team get relegated ?:-)

Possible that the B team would get relegated automatically so that another team from the second division gets promoted. So Barca would end up in the second division and Barca B in the division below that.

Will I Amnt

Looks like it's going ahead, 16/17 season in a newly created League 3.
League 1 is the highest promotion available, no entry to the cups.

Agueroooo

Will I Amnt wrote: »

Looks like it's going ahead, 16/17 season in a newly created League 3.
League 1 is the highest promotion available, no entry to the cups.

still a terrible idea and just adds another lawyer/hurdle for clubs trying to do it the right way.

Will I Amnt

Agueroooo wrote: »

still a terrible idea and just adds another lawyer/hurdle for clubs trying to do it the right way.

At least it's better than dumping them in a current league.
Amendments to the home-grown rule too, amount of foreign players registered in a squad to be reduced over the next 5 years from 17 to 12.

Augmerson

Chelsea B team would be terrifying.

Pro. F

Will I Amnt wrote: »

At least it's better than dumping them in a current league.

It will have the same effect eventually when the B teams qualify themselves into the league proper.

Agueroooo

Will I Amnt wrote: »

At least it's better than dumping them in a current league.
Amendments to the home-grown rule too, amount of foreign players registered in a squad to be reduced over the next 5 years from 17 to 12.

why wait for a B-Team league to do this?..carrot waving is all that is.

Will I Amnt

Pro. F wrote: »

It will have the same effect eventually when the B teams qualify themselves into the league proper.

I'm presuming there will be a maximum of 3 teams promoted each season, it would take a long time to have the effect that it would by placing them in current leagues. I'm sure there will be the opportunity to come back out of the new league once all the "big" clubs are promoted from it, then it might not be so difficult to get out of.

Agueroooo

Will I Amnt wrote: »

I'm presuming there will be a maximum of 3 teams promoted each season, it would take a long time to have the effect that it would by placing them in current leagues. I'm sure there will be the opportunity to come back out of the new league once all the "big" clubs are promoted from it, then it might not be so difficult to get out of.

I will put a wager with anyone now that in the first few seasons it will be the PL 'big boys' B-Teams battling it out for those 3 spots.

yes it will take a few seasons but then its job done.

and dont forget it will be at the expense of the clubs that got steam rolled and never wanted this.


its a means to an end and I for one hope there is a collaboration and strong joining up by all clubs against this and they get a really good strong voice behind them.

Dozen Wicked Words

So the best most league 1 teams and league 2 and conference teams will eventually be able to hope for is a season in league one, getting battered by b teams before the inevitable relegation back to League 2. Don't see that as being much of a pyramid.

It will be Premier, Championship, Premier b. The rest. F*cked if most teams want to be "the rest"

Killing the game for the sake of the elite and some pipe dream England might win something again. The same FA that put Aidy Boothroyd in charge of the England under 20 team! Maybe they should look at how England play rather than ripping the heart out of the traditions of English football.