Was I right?

LegacyUser

Hi, I'd just like to get people's opinion on this.

I was offered my dream job recently which I accepted.

I left after a week.

Why? Two reasons.

1) I worked 3/4 hours overtime each day for no extra pay.

2) I was also told that staff aren't allowed to take a break. I was told this is because 'if you don't take a break, you can leave an hour early'. This was a lie.

So to sum up, I worked 3/4 hours overtime each day, no extra pay, and no break. That's roughly 10/11 hours on my feet without a break.

I asked the manager for overtime and she said no.

Should I have accepted this or was I right to leave?

I'm a bit upset over this. Thanks

Tokyo

There's an awful lot of information left out that makes it difficult for any of us to give you a definitive answer OP. For example:

• Did you leave for another dream job, or are you now unemployed again.
• Did you try to follow up with the "no breaks" rule with someone above your manager, say, HR, and point out that what they were asking was illegal?
• Were you on social welfare beforehand?
• Do you have a source of income now that you are unemployed again.

I suppose the best answer I can give you is to put myself in your shoes and say that given the limited information, I wouldn't have accepted it, but nor would I have walked out after a week either. I'd have followed up on the "no breaks" request and pointed out the legislation in place that backed you on it - if they pushed me that far. The overtime thing wouldn't bother me as much - in reality I've found that certain professions seem to have a certain amount of flexibility built in when it comes to working slightly above the official quota. Particularly if it were my dream job - I'd be willing to take that hit in order to gain experience in that field. Leaving after a week seems.... hasty. Other people's opinions may vary though.

Also worth nothing the fact that you walked out on a job now means that you can't get social welfare for 9 weeks (I think), so you're going to have to figure out how to pay bills and such for a while.

jane82

Why didnt you just walk out after your normal hours finishd and come back the next day?

Boombastic

Only you can decide as you were in the situation


But, it takes time to settle in to any job and the first week is always the hardest.

With all due respect

If it was your dream job, you didn't put much effort it, so maybe in your head it was your dream job, but the reality of it was different. No harm, but maybe take this time to reassess what your dream job is, and readjust your aims?

LegacyUser

Years ago I walked out of a job after 4 days. Was I right? Maybe.

The hardest thing was to get another one. Until then any jobs I got were while I was already working. I definitely think even getting interviews was harder because I wasn't working. Having no job hit me hard in the pocket. I'd a car loan which still had to be paid. It took a while to get my dole so I had to try and survive on my savings. I foolishly turned to my credit card to keep my head above water so that took a while to clear when I got another job.

If I was to go back in time I would have stayed in the job and started looking for another one. I didn't leave for the reasons you left but I now see how I could've handled things differently. In the long term it was better for me that I left because I got a job that led me onto a better career path. If I'd not been so desperate to land another job I would not have taken this job because the starting pay was awful.

You've closed the door behind you so who's right and who's wrong is mostly irrelevant now. It's what you do next that's important.

LegacyUser

Hard to really comment OP without knowing about the field your working in. I work in a field that involves late nights and weekend work with no overtime pay and you can be on your feet the whole time. There's no set break times, your expected to take breaks when you need to and not take the piss taking too many. It's a tough field to get into but the starting pay is very high and you can move fairly quickly up the ladder and pay scale. It's also a very enjoyable field, fun environment to work in with little of the 'office' set up, no dress code, no clocking in/out, and great job satisfaction. Anyone getting into this field knows what the hours and set up is. If this job was your dream job then you should have been aware of what was expected. If the set up you described is standard for this field you should have expected however if it's not standard for this industry then that's a different kettle of fish.

Two weeks though really isn't long enough to give a good indication of a work environment, you might have started during a particularly busy period and it might not normally be as full on.

LegacyUser

mike_ie wrote: »

There's an awful lot of information left out that makes it difficult for any of us to give you a definitive answer OP. For example:

• Did you leave for another dream job, or are you now unemployed again.
• Did you try to follow up with the "no breaks" rule with someone above your manager, say, HR, and point out that what they were asking was illegal?
• Were you on social welfare beforehand?
• Do you have a source of income now that you are unemployed again.

I'd have followed up on the "no breaks" request and pointed out the legislation in place that backed you on it - if they pushed me that far.

Hi Mike,

I have another job lined up, thankfully. You may wonder what's the problem then? Well I guess I feel as though I have given myself an unjust reputation in that place now. The manager was very unhappy with me having only given a days notice, which is fair enough however, her text to me said 'you obviously cannot handle hard work'. This is completely untrue. I loved the work! I made it very clear to her that it was due to the overtime and no break policy. I know she will bad mouth me now and that's what I am mostly concerned about - my reputation.

In relation to the breaks, I asked the overall manager (the highest). She said exactly as I said in my initial post - that you end an hour earlier. This was a fob off though as I was informed by all the staff that they have never left an hour early.

I was also given a blank contract to sign which shocked me. When I enquired as to why it was blank I was told 'don't worry about it you don't need to sign it'. To me, I thought this was a sign that they were going to let me go after my trial because I was asking too many questions (I was completely right to ask these questions though imo).

Do most places pay overtime? Surely 3 hours overtime each day is not 'overtime' and more like exploitation?

Sun in Capri

You mention "reputation". What about their "reputation" after giving you a blank contract?

I would not want to work for such a place, dream job or not.

Rubberchikken

Doesnt sound like the most professional set up.
Imo a properly run company will have respect for employee rights.

Live and learn

Stavro Mueller

You can't turn back the clock now - count yourself lucky you've got another job now. Keep your nose clean and work at gaining a good reputation. If your short-lived employers are of any size at all, people in the industry will know what sort of place it's like to work in anyway.

Dave!

Sounds like a pretty dodgy place tbh. Good that you got out pretty quickly.

I wouldn't worry about your reputation. It wouldn't be too common for managers to go around bad mouthing former employees to other people in the industry. Internally maybe, yeah.

Don't worry about it.

knipex

op_here wrote: »

Do most places pay overtime? Surely 3 hours overtime each day is not 'overtime' and more like exploitation?

Depends. We're you on salary or hourly paid ??

I haven't been paid overtime in over 15 years and through multiple jobs as I am now on salary. Prior to that I always got over time if I worked extra hours. In my last job I was averaging 60 to 70 hours a week.

Never came across the no break thing but then it's illegal (although I do know people who will work through break to finish an hour early but that's very different from not allowing breaks)

I once worked in a place where you were only allowed use the loo at lunchtime - the owner locked the toilet door and kept the key in his office until 1pm - 2pm. We also were not allowed leave the premises at lunchtime. I was there for 9 days and walked out after the owner shouted at me in front of my colleagues asking me if I was "retarded".


I walked out and felt very down for days, my confidence really took a knock. but here I am a year later in a job that I love and being treated with the respect I deserve. I wouldn't feel bad about it if I were you, its obviously a very unprofessional workplace.

mdebets

I think you are right for not working for the company anymore, they seem like total cowboys.
But I think you went the wrong way about it.
They are clearly in break of employment law (no breaks, no contract, maybe less than minimum wage, maybe less than allowed times between shifts). You should have talked to a solicitor (or citizens advise bureau) and NERA about your options. The only way employers like this learn to treat their employees like human beings is if they get sued and have to pay money. The positive point for you would have been some potential extra cash from them and immediate social welfare payments after you left.

username123

What was the nature of the work and how did you come to work 3/4 hours extra each day? I presume this means 3 or 4 hours and not three quarters of an hour? I am surprised any poster would agree that 3 or 4 hours extra a day is acceptable no matter the nature of the business etc.. Thats effectively multiplying the working week by 50% for no extra pay?

Why did you not just leave at the correct finish time - someone must have asked you to stay or how did that come to be?

On being instructed to stay, did you not ask if you would be paid for staying and if the answer was no - why did you stay?

Personally I think it was totally out of order and I probably wouldnt have lasted 2 days (if it was 3 or 4 hours extra) - but Im curious to know how it came about that you stayed - you must have agreed to it?

IrishEyes19

cant log in wrote: »

Hard to really comment OP without knowing about the field your working in. I work in a field that involves late nights and weekend work with no overtime pay and you can be on your feet the whole time. There's no set break times, your expected to take breaks when you need to and not take the piss taking too many. It's a tough field to get into but the starting pay is very high and you can move fairly quickly up the ladder and pay scale. It's also a very enjoyable field, fun environment to work in with little of the 'office' set up, no dress code, no clocking in/out, and great job satisfaction. Anyone getting into this field knows what the hours and set up is. If this job was your dream job then you should have been aware of what was expected. If the set up you described is standard for this field you should have expected however if it's not standard for this industry then that's a different kettle of fish.

Two weeks though really isn't long enough to give a good indication of a work environment, you might have started during a particularly busy period and it might not normally be as full on.

sorry but that's completely unprofessional in that case, you have to get a break regardless of how busy they are. That's what cover staff are for.

cocker5

God if I was offered my dream job and had to work 10/11 hours a day… happy days.
I currently work min 10 hours a day, don’t take breaks, sit in traffic for at least an hour each way (usually 1.5 in the mornings) and an hour in the evenings…. don’t get paid overtime either …. and it’s not my dream job.

BUT that’s life, it pays my bills etc. and until I win the lotto or get offered my dream job then so be it.

Lots of people work lots of overtime for no extra pay etc., it’s a reality in the workforce at the moment.

Emme

cocker5 wrote: »

God if I was offered my dream job and had to work 10/11 hours a day… happy days.
I currently work min 10 hours a day, don’t take breaks, sit in traffic for at least an hour each way (usually 1.5 in the mornings) and an hour in the evenings…. don’t get paid overtime either …. and it’s not my dream job.

BUT that’s life, it pays my bills etc. and until I win the lotto or get offered my dream job then so be it.

Lots of people work lots of overtime for no extra pay etc., it’s a reality in the workforce at the moment.

It may be a reality in the workforce at the moment but if everyone blindly accepts this it will become a permanent reality, with more overtime without pay thrown in for good measure.

Est28

IrishEyes19 wrote: »

sorry but that's completely unprofessional in that case, you have to get a break regardless of how busy they are. That's what cover staff are for.

I don't agree at all.

You're talking about a part-time job or somewhere like a shop. There, people are paid by the hour and have set hours. "Cover" staff are paid to do shorter hours like evenings or half days to cover lunches.

In any type of salaried or contract field, it's not like that at all.
In my job it's loosely a "9 to 5", being the office hours but you are paid to do a job, hit headlines, not do "8 hours". That means puting in evenings, weekend, although it doesn't happen often, I'm on call 24/7. If something goes wrong over-night there's no way I can pawn it off and say I'm not on the clock until 9am. In a lot of places, even if you are 9-5, leaving at 5pm on the dot is a sign of lack of commitment to managers. Sure, you can do it, but don't expect to ever get promoted or an increase or anything.
There is no such thing as "lunchbreak". I don't know when I last went out for lunch, you grab some food and work at your desk to get done faster. It's not even worth taking that hour out for what it will cost you later on.
There is no such thing as "temp staff" or "cover staff".... you can't bring someone in for an hour to take up the work myself or a co-worker would be doing. It would cause more problems than it solves.

I don't know how this applies to the OPs field but I see this a lot with young workers and it's a big problem in Ireland from people I talk to... they go on about "my rights, my rights, my rights..." then don't understand when bosses are snooty with them or they get passed over for promotions, they just don't get the business world whatsoever. And it's terrible for attracting employers here.

Look at the startup and tech industries somewhere like San Fran. These guys work 10-12 hours then "code on the side" to build apps and products they can showcase to their company. Just doing your bare minimum job requirements don't cut it, you're expected to show you are dedicated and will go above and beyond. If these companies look at Ireland and see an environment where instead of being in love with the job, they just see line workers shouting for "my rights!" all the time, it just turns them off.

username123

^^ I can't agree with the above at all. People have lives, they've to collect kids from crèche, or school, they have things outside work to attend to. In 20 years in a salaried career (IT) I've not seen the type of carry on in the OP. Sure, occasional lates, but any company with a HR dept learns quickly that you get more out of staff and keep good people by treating them properly. Exploited people move on fast.

cocker5

Emme wrote: »

It may be a reality in the workforce at the moment but if everyone blindly accepts this it will become a permanent reality, with more overtime without pay thrown in for good measure.

I dont blindly accept it, Im not over the moon about it would rather be at home at this hour walking my dog etc.... BUT what do i do take a stand? Loose my job? be "managed" out? thats a reality too...

So to be upfront and say Ill take it over the dole anyday

Est28

username123 wrote: »

^^ I can't agree with the above at all. People have lives, they've to collect kids from crèche, or school, they have things outside work to attend to. In 20 years in a salaried career (IT) I've not seen the type of carry on in the OP. Sure, occasional lates, but any company with a HR dept learns quickly that you get more out of staff and keep good people by treating them properly. Exploited people move on fast.

I'm not saying it's easy. Heck life's not fair.
But I really have to wonder... how far did those 20 years take you? Yes, we do all have children to pick up and dogs to walk but in today's environment try to explain that to a boss who has college kids lined up at the door waiting to get a chance to work their assistance off.

I see plenty people shouting for "theirs rights" and defiantly walking out of the office at 5th with a ton of work on their desk but it's as I said... they go on.. continue in their career leading nowhere and get overlooked for every promotion.

The IT industry in Ireland in general is poor. We get the outsourced work. I.e. The chap the main office can't be bothered doing because of the lack of work ethic.

I find it incredible that you are a 20 year IT veteran yet despute what I was saying about the work ethic in bigger cities and large companies.

username123

Est28 wrote: »

I find it incredible that you are a 20 year IT veteran yet despute what I was saying about the work ethic in bigger cities and large companies.

Well, there you go. Among my peer group the kind of exploitation that the OP describes is not common either.

LegacyUser

IrishEyes19 wrote: »

sorry but that's completely unprofessional in that case, you have to get a break regardless of how busy they are. That's what cover staff are for.

Go back and read the first thing I said - it depends on the field you are in. People working 9 to 5 type jobs in an office set up or retail I can see them expecting structured days with set breaks and knowing exactly what hours your working in a given day/week/month but not all industries work that way. I work in the film industry and when your on set you can't have people just walking off for breaks when ever they feel like it as you could be in the middle of shot that's taken several hours of set up time to get to and there are also safety issues. There are lots of factors that effect a days work so having set times for lunch or to rap is very very hard. Yes some people can get exploited but bad studios get a rep very quickly. It's a great industry to work in but it's bloody hard work and you get a lot of people starting in the industry thinking it's going to be all glamour but with no idea of the work expected and leaving very quickly.

Emme

Here's a link to a book called Willing Slaves about overwork culture:

http://www.amazon.com/Willing-Slaves-Overwork-Culture-Ruling/dp/000716372X

Guys can we get back to helping the OP please

Est28

cant log in wrote: »

Go back and read the first thing I said - it depends on the field you are in. People working 9 to 5 type jobs in an office set up or retail I can see them expecting structured days with set breaks and knowing exactly what hours your working in a given day/week/month but not all industries work that way. I work in the film industry and when your on set you can't have people just walking off for breaks when ever they feel like it as you could be in the middle of shot that's taken several hours of set up time to get to and there are also safety issues. There are lots of factors that effect a days work so having set times for lunch or to rap is very very hard. Yes some people can get exploited but bad studios get a rep very quickly. It's a great industry to work in but it's bloody hard work and you get a lot of people starting in the industry thinking it's going to be all glamour but with no idea of the work expected and leaving very quickly.

I totally agree.
Most people here are talking about working at the local sweet shop and getting a designated lunch-hour. These days very few industries have the same work ethic or structure. You are paid to work to deadlines...
hours alone do not determine results, therefore you cannot say 9-5 is enough or fine and an set hour break at 1pm always applies.

If you can do your work and meet a deadline in 4 hours great, if it takes 12, tough, you are paid to do this. If you work at a sweet shop they will open at 9 and close at 5. But in the business world it just doesn't work this way.

For big companies, the owners and founders work 24/7 to build their businesses, yes they have lives but they must do whatever it takes to build their business and they won't hire people without a similar work ethic.

I can see most don't agree with me in this thread but that alone says enough about the work ethic in Ireland currently and why these companies are reluctant to set up.

I live in the States now and especially in the startup culture, people live and breath their job. Not everyone has to do it, but to succeed that's what expected. In the corporate world, it's seen as a negative to be seen walking home at 5pm each day, shows lack of commitment. Most of what you do in your job is not in your job spec... you do what you need to then show you are committed and go above and beyond to show you can be trusted to move up the ranks.

I'm not saying it's all roses but I find it laughable that people here disagree that this actually happens... like everywhere... in business, in the corporate world, in any major city...
To actually say this is not how the world works... seriously?

Though then again, if the OP IS working at a sweetshop, sure, they should get over-time if they work until 8 or 9pm. It doesn't sound like thats what we're talking about though.

Sorry, this lack of work ethic is extremely common and it just doesn't fly, like it or not.

username123

Est28 I would respectfully suggest that (a) your personal experiences are not the norm in most industries and (b) it's really patronising and elitist to state that people posting here are talking about a job in a sweet shop. Is there even such a thing as a sweet shop anymore?

Also, not everybody is interested in "moving up the ranks". Most people work to live, it's only a very narrow cross section that live to work.

TimeToShine

To be fair to est considering that he lives in the US he is sort of correct. There's a reason why they're so far ahead of us over there.

Emme

TimeToShine wrote: »

To be fair to est considering that he lives in the US he is sort of correct. There's a reason why they're so far ahead of us over there.

The shareholders and people at the top may be ahead of us but the US is a very inequal society. This inequality suits the people at the top (or the 1%) because it scares workers into doing whatever it takes to hold onto their jobs. Even if that takes working 90 hours a week.

At the end of the day most people who do a job get their salary at the end of the month and no more. Business owners can profit hugely. So people who put in longer hours are sacrificing their lives not to line their own pockets, but to line the pockets of their bosses. The gap between rich and poor is bigger in the US than it has been for a long time.

Employers dangle a carrot in front of employees - if you work longer hours you will get this, if you work longer hours you will get that and increasingly "if you work longer hours you will get to keep your job".

I see this culture seeping into Irish workplaces a lot these days. It's one thing to muck in to keep a SME afloat but multinationals expect people to live to work, not work to live. The recent economic crash was the best thing that happened big business - it means that people are terrified, and a terrified workforce is easier to manage.

Tokyo

Emme, while I appreciate your argument, the PI forum is not really the place for it. Lets stick to providing advice from the OP somewhere in the ballpark of the problem they posted.

Regards,
Mike

Emme

mike_ie wrote: »

Emme, while I appreciate your argument, the PI forum is not really the place for it. Lets stick to providing advice from the OP somewhere in the ballpark of the problem they posted.

Regards,
Mike

My advice to the OP is that they took the right decision. No job that exploits workers is a "dream" job. The OP shouldn't let market forces dictate that he or she do hours of overtime for nothing.

Stenth

I agree, although I would phrase it somewhat differently. Different workplaces have different cultures. If your job means you are expected to work a lot and you don't enjoy doing that, it is probably not your dream job. It could very well be a dream job for someone else, of course.

Jobs are not all about the job description on paper. Decide for yourself where your absolute limits are in terms of hours, salary, responsibility, travel and so on.

Me, I'm fine with a 70 hour work week. However, I would walk away from a position where I was required to manage other people. Everyone is different.

LegacyUser

Emme wrote: »

My advice to the OP is that they took the right decision. No job that exploits workers is a "dream" job. The OP shouldn't let market forces dictate that he or she do hours of overtime for nothing.

to be honest no one can tell the OP if their decision was right or wrong. To me when someone says 'dream' job they aren't talking about a job they are talking about a career - something they've studied for/developed skills for/something they want to do for hopefully the rest of their lives. It tends to be different to just a job that pays you a wage so you can do other things. I have my dream job, it's what I've wanted to do since I was 10 and even though it's hard work, hours are long, requires a lot of overtime and unsociable hours I really love it because it's what I want to do. I put the extra effort in not because I want to impress a boss or climb a ladder but because I actually like what I do and want to get better at it and never stop learning.

Maybe the OP didn't mean 'dream' job in that sense, maybe it was just a job for a wage to them and they've stated they already got another job. Their issue appears to be wither leaving this company after 2 weeks could come back to damage them down the line and the honest answer to that is no one knows. Chances are slim as they were there so short a time they most likely made little to no impression on the higher ups but we aren't the OP, we don't know what field they are working in. Some think the company they left sound awful but we don't know if that is standard for the industry and we don't know if it is an industry that relies heavily on personal recommendations or not. My field is heavily reliant on that, most of my work is freelance or contract based and I haven't had to do a job interview for nearly a decade now as I get hired based on recommendations from others I have worked for so it's important in my field not to be an ass to people but not every industry works that way. If this is a field the OP has wanted to work in then surely they know how it works and they should be able to answer their own question as to wither there could be a long term impact to their actions.

Emme

Stenth wrote: »

I agree, although I would phrase it somewhat differently. Different workplaces have different cultures. If your job means you are expected to work a lot and you don't enjoy doing that, it is probably not your dream job. It could very well be a dream job for someone else, of course.

Jobs are not all about the job description on paper. Decide for yourself where your absolute limits are in terms of hours, salary, responsibility, travel and so on.

Me, I'm fine with a 70 hour work week. However, I would walk away from a position where I was required to manage other people. Everyone is different.

Junior doctors work crazy hours but they have to do this if they want their dream job of being a GP, hospital consultant or whatever field in medicine they choose. This is exploitation but medical students are aware of this when they chose their course.

If your job is totally different to how it was described and you are not happy with this then you are perfectly justified to leave.